Rayray

I agree with kyle here, Full buster isn't much of an issue as they burn about twice the amount of seeds(for hp and sp) just to spam that. A GS that only relies on that will not last that long.(I outlasted a few GS using my prof and stalker just because they spam too much.)

I did not really rant on the damage, I ranted on the cast time before you guys fixed it. I don't want to lower its damage. I even want it at 650%, just that NOTHING should affect its cast time. Also, I hope the two hand rifle also increase the damage of the OTHER rifle skills, just a heads up :D

I fought one GS already on my flip tatami stalker. He kinda gave up in the end since you can't really defeat my stalker if you are long ranged. I get the sinx ring to be for sbk. However, as a player, you must have noticed that I rarely go cookie cutter builds, hence I don't see the use for the guardian ring, since it would make my build PURE SBK and I don't think that works in the long run. that's me. I like the tracking skill. I really do. I was one of the people who wanted shotguns and other weapons ever since Desperado was nerfed. It was a bit overboard though with it having no cast time.

I can see that you guys wanted to reinvent something, it is evident. My argument was that the GS ring far outshines the rest. The others are imaginative, but the execution imo is lacking.

I kinda like the fact that I made a reply saying on why Tracking should be tweaked but somehow no one argued about it with me and instead someone went on and argued with other people. I do agree with the others, the Guardian ring for GS is miles above the others. This is a bit lengthy but the only way for people to see my post(apparently) is to make it long. Let's look at the other rings [Assassin Cross of The Guardian] Str +15, Int +15, Vit +10, Max HP +10%, Max SP +10%, -5% cast delay reduction, Walking speed +15% Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% Increase damage of Meteor Assault by 100%, Soul Destroyer by 50% - meteor assault deals like 3k-4k. increasing it by 100% is kinda useless since no one will spam that. The cursed ring increases SB by 15%, far better than this one. [Champion of The Guardian] Str +10, Agi +20, Max HP +25%, Hit +100, Walking speed +15% Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% Increase Raging Trifecta Blow by 50%, Raging Quadruple Blow by 80%, Raging Thrust by 100%, Chain Crush Combo by 120% If combined with Lady Tanee card and/or Fallen Bishop Hibram card, decrease Max SP by 100%. -sure, people might try to combo champ now, but a good fast asura champ still does way more damage. The decrease max sp in the ring also hurts it [Clown of The Guardian] Str +25, Agi +15, Max HP +15%, Atk +15%, Walking speed +15% Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% 2% chance to cast lvl 10 Bash on enemy target with increased damage of 1000%, 6% chance to cast lvl 10 Heal with increased effect by 750% to self when dealing Physical damage. -Str is a wasted stat on dex class. no one will melee with clown, hence the bash there ideally would only be working with melee reflect [Creator of The Guardian] Vit +25, Str +25, Max HP +15%, Max SP +10%, Walking speed +15% Reduce Vit def by 10%, Enable use of Magnetic Earth, increase Aid Condensed Potion by 20%, 100% chance to get Condensed White Potion and Plant Bottle from Plant monsters. Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% - Nice thought. enable use of magnetic earth will remove pneuma to help you acid bomb people who spam pneuma. Thing is, both blessed and cursed ring give better stats and utility. Using this will make you lose heavens drive(if you use blessed) which is more useful than magnetic earth. Also, I can just use cart revolution to push people off pneuma so I see no need for this guardian ring. [Gypsy of The Guardian] Str +25, Agi +15, Max HP +15%, Atk +15%, Walking speed +15% Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% 2% chance to cast lvl 10 Holy Crosson enemy target with increased damage of 1000%,4% chance to cast lvl 10 Heal with increased effect by 150% to self when dealing Physical damage. -same argument with the clown one. No one will melee with a class that has medium hp [High Priest of The Guardian] Vit +35, Int +10, Max HP +25%, Max SP +10%, After cast delay -5%, Walking speed +15%, Enchant armor with Ghost property, Increases effectiveness of Healing skills by 90%, 3% chance to Heal self when receiving physical and magical damage. Reduce Vit def by 10%, Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% -confused on this one. Enchant armor with ghost property? So I am stuck with one element on me then? What if I switch to an angeling armor? what would be my element then? this would be good if that part is explained well. The chance to heal + effectiveness of healing skills leads me to believe this is for the melee priest which is nice, but why put int as stat then? [High Wizard of The Guardian] Int +20, Vit +20, Max HP +10%, Max SP +25%, Matk +20%, Walking speed +15% Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5%, Reduce Vit def by 10%, Increase damage of Napalm Vulcan by 50% - seems nice, until you remember that bolts deal better damage due to imp/siroma cards that you will rarely use napalm vulcan yourself. although it is not as bad as i thought it would be [Lord Knight of The Guardian] Str +20, Vit +35, Max HP +10%, Max HP +10%, Walking speed +15% Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% Increase damage of Magnum Break by 150%, increase damage of Counter attack by 300% Decrease damage of Spiral Pierce, Bowling Bash, and Brandish Spear by 100% - really? you claim this is on par with the GS ring? you decrease the damage of the best skills of LK to increase magnum break which you can't even spam? [Ninja of The Guardian] Str +30, Agi +20, Max HP +35%, Max SP +10%, Atk +30%, Crit +25, Increase damage on medium size monsters by 10%, Walking speed +15% Reduce Vit def by 10%, Increase damage of Shadow Slash by 400%, 2% chance to cast Falling Frozen Crystal with increased damage of 100% Decrease damage of Final Strike by 100% Effects nullify if combined with Tyr Shuriken. Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% - another ring that is only good on paper. the 400% increase in shadow slash is hindered by the fact that you cant spam that skill requires you to be in hiding status. you only normally use shadow slash to get near, then you either final strike or spam throwing skills. So I find it weird that this is the skill that got increased damage. [Paladin of The Guardian] Int +35 Vit +10, Max HP +15%, Walking speed +15% Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% Increase damage of Gloria Domini by 1000% Decrease damage of Grand Cross, Holy Cross, and Shield Boomerang by 100% - again, only sounds good on paper. you might say that "ooohh, 1000% increase in damage, that is way better than 500% increase of tracking now!", but gloria domini has fixed damage of 2000. so that's 1000% of 2000, meaning you increased its damage to 20000. Is it worth the effort? I can easily deal 40k+ on shield chain. [Professor of The Guardian] Vit +25, Dex +20, Max HP +10%, Max SP +20%, Matk +10%, Walking speed +15% Reduce Vit def by 10%, Increase damage of Soul Siphon by 290% Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% -no one will use soul siphon in pvp. seriously. [sniper of The Guardian] Str +20, Int +45, Max HP +15%, Walking speed +15% Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% Lvl 10 Over weight, Increase damage of Blitz Beat by 3500% and Arrow Shower by 40% - one of the only ones that seems nice. I say seems only because I can't test it yet(the others I put up there are easily computed) [soul Linker of The Guardian] Str +20, Vit +40, Max HP +40%, Max SP +25%, Atk +15%, Hit +50, Walking speed +15% Reduce Vit def by 10%, 6% chance to cast Back Stab with increased damage of 60% when doing normal attacks. Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% -I will never melee on a soul linker when I have lower hp than a wizard. [stalker of The Guardian] Str +30, Agi +15, Max HP +15%, Max SP +10%, Atk +10%, Walking speed +15% Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% Increase damage of Bowling Bash by 10% - not worth the effort since this is for an str and melee stalker, when the bow stalker copying the same skill does more damage and has more utility. [star Gladiator of The Guardian] Str +40, Vit +20, Max HP +40%, Max SP +10%, Walking speed +15% Reduce Vit def by 10%, Crit +100, Atk +15%, Inflict 20% more damage with Critical Attacks, 2% chance to cast Counter Kick with increased damage of 1000% when doing physical damage, Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% - one of the better ones for sure, but still not on par with the GS ring. [super Novice of The Guardian] Str +30, Vit +20, Max HP +25%, Max SP +20%, Atk +10, Walking speed +15% Reduce Vit def by 10%, 2% chance to cast Desperado with increased damage by 50% when doing physical attacks, 4% chance to lvl 10 Provoke self when receiving physical damage. Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% -same thoughts with star glad ring. [Taekwon of The Guardian] Str +40, Vit +10, Agi +10, Max HP +20%, Max SP +20%, Atk +10%, Hit +60, Walking speed +15% Reduce Vit def by 10%, Increase damage of Flying Kick by 20%, 2% chance to Full Divest a target when doing physical attacks, Enable use of lvl 10 Bless and Increase Agi Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% -same thoughts with star glad ring [Whitesmith of The Guardian] Str +20, Int +40, Max HP +10%, MATK +50%, Walking speed +15% Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5% 3% chance to cast Napalm Vulcan with increased damage of 700% to target. 4% chance to cast Stave Crasher with increased damage of 40% to target - an int whitesmith? WHY? WS is one of the stronger characters out there. No one will use guardian ring for him, when the two other rings provide better stuff. The thing is: IDC about the damage of Tracking now, it's the cast time that was the issue. If people still found a way to reduce the cast time again then THAT needs to be fixed again because I believe that is not intended. Remember when people used reducts stalkers? the one with the laughing poopoo hat and sacreds and stuff, the one where they get near 100% demi human reducts. You don't see that now because that was nerfed, due to the fact that it is not intended to be that way. Remember the LK one hand sword(that was two handed) so they can use parry? Nerfed as well. Nox and angeling don't really counter GS because it is easy to change elements. so, no those are not counters. and 70k tracking is not that bad, when you compare it to bolts completely missing against gtb. I like how some of you guys are sticking to your guns(pun intended) and keep on saying that this stuff was not OP(talking about the 650% and no cast time). However, I haven't seen those people actually using GS before all these megaboosts. Hell, I haven't even seen those new GS participating in the old discussion for GS about the stats of the weapons that were supposed to be made back then. You guys just started using GS when it got boosted, which says a lot. Forgive me to be crude, but I see little merit on those type of arguments when you never used GS after desperado got a bit nerfed. You only used the class very recently, your opinions are horribly biased due to the fact that you only used GS when it was stronger already. The only few ones like Yatogami who made the guide for full buster GS would probably be not as biased.

I already said there are a few counters. Ninja being one, stalker that copied flip tatami is another. I said it a couple of posts and it got buried somehow. I think the issue stems out of this: So to counter 1 build for GS, we have to switch characters while all we need to do to combat other classes is to change gear.

You can't exactly call it a counter though, as not all classes has it. Sure you can use a card, but that only procs on chance though.

Sorry, but the pneuma card is not the good solution against GS. it works on snipers and others because they hit fast. With tracking, it does not hit fast, but it hits hard. in a 1v1 situation, I doubt pneuma would proc if the GS only uses tracking and full buster, it might but GS already have a skill against pneuma. The only class I know that will never have an issue against a GS is Ninja, AND a stalker that uses my old build(flip tatami copied skill). While RO seems to be a game where your class is ultimately weak against another, on a high rate it is a different story. A class should be able to be on a slightly even footing against everyone at least. maybe disadvantaged against some, but not like this. We don't want to create another issue like the LKs never ending parry before.

1. There are several counters for tracking, yes. Still, look at it in the worst situation, which is gvg or woe. You cannot really outright zone in and focus on the GS now could you? We nerfed SB and several other hard hitting skills simply because it tipped the situation more to their favor in a very unfavorable way. This is also not counting on thana card and weapon switches, which is another thing. While you can wear raydrics against the champ class and be well and alive, the same cannot be said with tracking. 2. Good to hear this. 3. I don't see how losing one card makes me lose some of my reductions, especially as people RARELY use a card on GS to deal with reductions. I am not against the GS class getting tracking, I like having skills that is not a spam until someone dies skill. GS is also one of my favorite classes, even when they nerfed desperado and the full buster shotgun is not out yet then. I like the direction of you guys experimenting(as I am hoping for Soul linker buffs and stuff).

Balancing a class is never easy on a high rate server. Here are my thoughts. Tracking is a bit OP WHEN USED IN A GROUP SITUATION. That is, if a GS is fighting with at least a pally, chances are he can finish that tracking(provided he used phen card or blood butterfly card) while staying alive. Tracking is a bit useless against certain classes in a 1v1 situation. That cast time is gonna bite you in the ass, but only if the enemy can withstand its damage when the GS hits the skill. If you can still one hit them(classes that has lower hp), then tracking is still OP in that regard. Suggestions on my end. Not all of this should be implemented, at minimum, at least one of them should work. 1. lower the damage of that skill. 650% seems too much as it can one hit most classes provided he has the right cards. Not even Asura can one hit people even with the right cards, SB had to hit more than 3x for it to insta kill someone, Double bolt has to proc to one hit with prof, armor has to be broken for acid demonstration to kill someone instantly. With Tracking however, the only thing you need to do is cast it and wait and you will kill someone(especially if that someone is fighting someone else, he cant outseed that for sure). 2. What Ami said can be plausible: make a weapon for tracking, make it a two handed rifle, REMOVE THE EFFECT ALTOGETHER on the ring and put it in the weapon. That way, GS gains the same weakness of SB sinx, which is reducts. High damage, low survival. That happened on SinX, why not GS? 3. Remove the effect of phen card and bloody butterfly card as well. If I understand it, Ares wants Tracking skill to be like a positional type of skill, meaning the player's position should be good enough before you use it. Hence, removing this two cards would make it work as intended. If a GS can just stand there, cast tracking everytime he can while being kept alive by his Paladin, then we get OP. If tracking can be interrupted by just being hit, then it can never be OP.

I know. I even rarely get Charlie to go on now, even I rarely go on; It would have been really fun though.

With all these guild talks etc, I kinda want to see all the remnants of the old guilds(Influence, Loli Kingdom, Royal Mafia etc) to create one guild and just join WoE for the lulz.

But we don't need another skill like that. That's Ares' point, if we make it what it is now, there is no merit on using it at all since GS has Full Buster.

Pretty sure what you have in mind with regards to tracking is the "sniper rifle" feel of the skill, where you take your time to deliver a lethal shot. I would love to have that. Just make tracking always have a cast time, and even with that much damage, it won't be OP

Here's the thing, I wouldn't have minded it having that much damage if the tracking casting time can never be reduced by any means. It would have been a nice change of pace, to have a skill that has a long casting time, but almost always will 1-3 hit an enemy if it does cast.

With my normal gear on biochem, most champs hit me around that range, they only go lower than that if i go dual raydrics or devs. So yes, a 120k damage ranged attack is on asura damage already.

We honestly don't need everyone to have the ring before we know something is wrong. I had my doubts as well on my earlier post. But a ranged skill that does asura like damage seems a bit OP don't you think?

Well to put it in perspective: The only way my biochemist would be able to hit as much as that is if the one I am hitting with acid demonstration got his armor broken. So with that said, damage is indeed OP. I wouldn't have minded it if the tracking cast time can never be reduced.

Got a point there, 2x beelzebub gives 60%, add the dark illusion + dark lord combo and that's 80%-90% if I remember correctly. I say lower the 650% to a logical one. between 100-200% increase should do. I only played GS that uses tracking on the normal servers, hence I never knew if beelzebub works on it. I seem to remember only a certain rifle was able to reduce the tracking cast time then. can't test it so I trust you guys that say beelzebub works on it. If that is the case, then it seems to be OP seeing only a sniper using thana on a player that does not have skolls reach ranged damage like that.

Question: Tracking still has a cast time right? If that is the case, then lowering the damage too much will make tracking useless again. 650% might be a bit too much, but frankly, with the delay on tracking(if it is still there, I haven't seen it yet) would allow you to ygg through it, unless there are like 2-3 gs all on you. If it is spammable, then that's another story. Hence I am not entirely convinced here. Other skills might deal like 30-50k, but the difference is that they are spammable. So in dps terms, tracking still loses.

That's funny that your last login is in 2006. If I remember correctly, I joined this server merely months after it opened, and that is 2007.

Making the dex sword allowable to be used as offhand would make it OP. That is what I am pointing out. I already deal 10k-16k damage on one dagger without factoring the double attack. I deal around 16k-32k on dual daggers(or using loki's as offhand) without factoring the double attack. That is on incant alone. If we make dex sword be allowed on offhand, I think the damage would be the same + having lifesteal. So in my opinion, doing that would make it OP, hence I vote to make it only mainhand. Add the fact that a dagger built sinx has so much HP because the build uses less stat points on agi and even str(computing the damage of double attack together with your cards will lead you to use less str and put the rest on vit). A dagger sinx that has lifesteal would be OP.

Making it only mainhand is the point : To have different builds for the class. If we allow it(or if it is already allowed to be off hand), then the dex sword will ALWAYS be an offhand, and not the mainhand weapon which would ruin the whole point.