Ninja Final Strike (Too Strong Or Weak?)

[p3wp3w]

Well.. i dont play ninja fs (cuz im poor and lazy to make new char) .... but as a person using sniper vs ninja... ninja can be dealt 1 on 1 as fs really butt hurts them with the 1hp left.. to me ninja only get OP when they are in a party with clowns and pallies to give them 1m hp....

+1 to suggestions to lowering FS dmg and increase Kunais...

Seems like you havent explored sniper yet. You can use blitzbeat to those ninjas, and it bypasses tatami/cicada

[buangka]

60 kills in woe godlike lol not op

[Roi]

Anyone with half brain can get

60 kills in woe godlike lol not op

Anyone with half a brain can get 60 kills per WoE with a ninja with a pally&clown. That's how FS is right now.

[Carlo~]

I have played ninja and i can say that it is imbalanced.

Advantages:

woe/non woe map:

1) If you got good devotion, you can do unli spam.

2) If you got lutie you got higher damage. (But it is for team fight, not 1 on 1)

3) Thanatos card works on Final strike.

4) Ninja FS is easily spammable.

Nonwoe map

1) Ninjas are dodgy cause of cicada and tatami. I think a good ninja can dodge 90% of incoming attacks.

Disadvantages: 

woe map

1) First of all, ninjas easily die if no devo since there is no knockback during woe. You can just normal attack a ninja and it cant do anything. If ninja fs, automatic dead.

woe/nonwoe map

1) Pnuemas block Final strike.

2) Hard to kill if defending aura is active. It reduces FS damage massively.

 

I suggest trying maximum possible FS damage with full gears first and it should not be able to 1 hit a fully geared character. It is not practical. But in my opinion, lutie should not be considered first because we will be considering 2 classes already.

 

Goodluck to the GM team in balancing every class in the server. I think some are still overlooked! We hope for a fair gameplay to make everyone happy!

Edited October 16, 2016 by Carlo~

[Yatogami]

On 10/5/2016 at 0:08 PM, p3wp3w said:

potion pitcher is blocked by gtb >:D

Its not :D Tried it

[mmband]

On 10/14/2016 at 9:22 AM, mmband said:

Well.. i dont play ninja fs (cuz im poor and lazy to make new char) .... but as a person using sniper vs ninja... ninja can be dealt 1 on 1 as fs really butt hurts them with the 1hp left.. to me ninja only get OP when they are in a party with clowns and pallies to give them 1m hp....

+1 to suggestions to lowering FS dmg and increase Kunais...

Seems like you havent explored sniper yet. You can use blitzbeat to those ninjas, and it bypasses tatami/cicada

 Like this

* its not like i haven explored sniper in terms of 1 on 1 there are ways to deal with it i know .... but when it comes to party wise...i dont think blitz beat a ninja with pally devo ever gonne be effective *

[Roi]

Just nerf it already.

[p3wp3w]

And SG too.

[速い]

Ninja's probably one of the strongest classes right now, whether they have devo or not they're able to dominate PvP ladder/GvG/WoE with ease.

And the main reason why is, you literally cannot hard-counter a Ninja unless you play a class that hard-counters it, classes like Champ almost never win against a Ninja with half a brain. You've given Ninja the ability to do insane damage as it is, you can counter that by using 2rays/GR, but what stops a Ninja from switching to Thana and 1 shotting you? What stops a Ninja from getting the Apple buff, which by the way is pretty much free, it's basically a free 2x for Ninjas (as opposed to Battle Chant's 2x ATK which you get by chance).

 

You've ignored the fact that you've given Ninja such a strong steroid that in almost every duel, they have the chance to come out on top before it's even begun, all they need to do is get 2x HP which there's no downside to, as well as being able to switch to Thana when people do attempt to counter you. The problem doesn't lie in Ninja's being able to use Thana it's the amount of damage you've given it already that makes it so strong. Not much to say, you've given a class the ability to one-shot most classes, with the ability to spam at an insane rate.

 

Edit: 

Int +20, Vit +20, Max HP +20%, Max SP +10%, Atk +10%, Matk +20%, Walking speed +15%

Reduce Vit def by 10%, Increase damage of Final Strike by 150%

Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5%

 

I also don't see the reason as to why it was given a HP buff (Max HP +20% and Vit+20) as well as a Final Strike damage increase, it literally makes no sense, this ring's primary use is going to be using Final Strike, giving them a +% Max HP doesn't affect their ability to survive at all (if that's what you were going for), there's just so much damage increase across the board that it literally doesn't make sense.

Edited October 19, 2016 by 速い 

[Specter]

On 10/19/2016 at 10:34 AM, 速い  said:

Ninja's probably one of the strongest classes right now, whether they have devo or not they're able to dominate PvP ladder/GvG/WoE with ease.

And the main reason why is, you literally cannot hard-counter a Ninja unless you play a class that hard-counters it, classes like Champ almost never win against a Ninja with half a brain. You've given Ninja the ability to do insane damage as it is, you can counter that by using 2rays/GR, but what stops a Ninja from switching to Thana and 1 shotting you? What stops a Ninja from getting the Apple buff, which by the way is pretty much free, it's basically a free 2x for Ninjas (as opposed to Battle Chant's 2x ATK which you get by chance).

 

You've ignored the fact that you've given Ninja such a strong steroid that in almost every duel, they have the chance to come out on top before it's even begun, all they need to do is get 2x HP which there's no downside to, as well as being able to switch to Thana when people do attempt to counter you. The problem doesn't lie in Ninja's being able to use Thana it's the amount of damage you've given it already that makes it so strong. Not much to say, you've given a class the ability to one-shot most classes, with the ability to spam at an insane rate.

 

Edit: 

Int +20, Vit +20, Max HP +20%, Max SP +10%, Atk +10%, Matk +20%, Walking speed +15%

Reduce Vit def by 10%, Increase damage of Final Strike by 150%

Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5%

 

I also don't see the reason as to why it was given a HP buff (Max HP +20% and Vit+20) as well as a Final Strike damage increase, it literally makes no sense, this ring's primary use is going to be using Final Strike, giving them a +% Max HP doesn't affect their ability to survive at all (if that's what you were going for), there's just so much damage increase across the board that it literally doesn't make sense.

+1, still waiting for its nerf since Bash sinx got nerfed, now ninja's next on the list.

[lord_dhan26]

ok since everyone here wants to nerf or counter ninja.

Ill give you guys some basis. Here is the computation for its dmg.

 

Equips and stats of the ninja:

• Upper Helm: Shippy
• Aura: Rop/LHZ/EMP
• Asgards w/2vit runes
• Bless Ring/jack/slayer
• Tyrs Shuriken[2tg 2mao]
• Vit around 280~290
• Falcon Eyes from Machoman's Glasses

Considering the Target is Wearing Gr on armo, Usakoring on Shield, and 1 Ray on Cloak.
       

     Damage output = Ninja's HP - 50, 000.
 

so lets say with TGK GR, my Ninja gets 280k HP...  so its gon be 230k Damage output.

Once the target wears 2x ray(considering he/she has a good build that the DEF is not that high)

   Damage output = Ninja's HP - 79, 000.

 

Some of the players already figured out how to counter my Ninja. i even do 170k consistent to them(even with thana switch).

about the Lutie or 2x HP from Chant... how about taking Off the Lutie effect instead.....  the 2x HP chant has the same chance of occuring as 2x attack.
 

Edited October 21, 2016 by lord_dhan26

[c0okiee]

Jordan Some high vit players dont have the luxury the issue why every one going on about ninja is when u try to counter ninja u get vulnerable against another class and to counter a ninja and then survive in woe right now its not possible their dmg is too high as Hayai said look at the ring stats they dont need HP bonus if u ask me Along with 150% dmg buff thats like totally 170% dmg increase from ring alone lol

IT really needs a dmg redux forget removing effects such as Lutie or Chant HP.Ninjas are at a stage where champs are obsolete literally right now why work twice as hard as champ when u can ninja and YOLO :D

i mean so many people want it reduced just to balance it lol why not. Honestly im tired of these jumping guys who kill me insta  when i warp to for_fild01 lol 

The class was meant to be hard to kill with their escape abilities i dont see why their dmg has to be so high. It has to be nerfed lol or i wont be able to sleep

[Rayray]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  The damage a ninja can do is not relevant.  It's the defensive skills that makes it OP.  Put a damn soft delay on cicada and flip tatami, not too much just enough for them not to constantly spam it against someone and be immortal.

[c0okiee]

ray ur talking  on a player vs player point of view thats their only meal ticket those 2 skills lol let them be as it is. We'd benefit better if the damage is reduced instead caz then in all aspects whether it be pvp or woe or any event it wld be a bit more ballanced. i see so many lks,clowns,bio's kill them as it is with their present spam for cisada and flip wld be worse for them if it was given more delay.

They arent immortal well theyr kinda squishy at times :D

DMG or the Hp buff is the only thing ryt now that needs work and if possible the fs spam .The DMG Is the only Relevant aspect here i feel so do many other players on this post

When u said Dmg is irrelevant u made ppl whov been complaining about it in this post look like idiots haha XD

Edited October 21, 2016 by c0okiee
mispelled*

[p3wp3w]

Putting more delay on tatami and cicada doesnt sound fun for FS users.

 

I think i'd go for either damage nerf, or putting delay on soul>fs.

 

We're looking on a 1v1 and a party vs party perspective for ninjas, on their roles, and capabilities.

 

Surely 1v1 with ninjas are okay, but not with party vs party.

 

Edited October 21, 2016 by p3wp3w

[速い]

17 hours ago, lord_dhan26 said:

Some of the players already figured out how to counter my Ninja. i even do 170k consistent to them(even with thana switch).

about the Lutie or 2x HP from Chant... how about taking Off the Lutie effect instead.....  the 2x HP chant has the same chance of occuring as 2x attack.
 

I'm getting tired of you players who constantly keep saying "you just have to figure out how to counter it" or in your case "some of the players already figured out how to counter my ninja". If you're so sure that Ninja actually doesn't need a nerf, why not let me (a champ/sinx main) know how to counter playing against a Ninja with at least half a brain? It's got to the point where I literally avoid fighting Ninjas wherever I can simply because the outcome's pretty much already determined before the fight even begins. Yeah I could survive it as a champ if I actually changed how I built my champ, but that's sacrificing a ton of damage just to survive a class that's been given a ridiculous amount of damage.

10 hours ago, Rayray said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  The damage a ninja can do is not relevant.  It's the defensive skills that makes it OP.  Put a damn soft delay on cicada and flip tatami, not too much just enough for them not to constantly spam it against someone and be immortal.

This doesn't the insane damage they do in the first place, you're addressing a 1v1 situation, how about WoE where they don't really need to worry about that as long as they have devo? The defensive skills definitely don't make it OP, because as it stands, classes that hard-counter Ninja are able to defeat it with relative ease.

[Rayray]

On 22/10/2016 at 4:29 AM, 速い  said:

 

This doesn't the insane damage they do in the first place, you're addressing a 1v1 situation, how about WoE where they don't really need to worry about that as long as they have devo? The defensive skills definitely don't make it OP, because as it stands, classes that hard-counter Ninja are able to defeat it with relative ease.

Any class with a devo will not die.  A buffed up sinx, a champ, a full damage prof, a full damage sniper, a full damage gunslinger will not die when they have devo, hence I did not take it into consideration.

That's my opinion anyway.  For me the defensive skills are the problem since you have to switch classes to fight one most of the time while every other class can fight each other.  Some are disadvantaged, but you wouldn't feel the need to switch classes.

[Maiimaii]

+99999

to what rayray said

Edited October 25, 2016 by Maiimaii
Meow?

[速い]

30 minutes ago, Rayray said:

Any class with a devo will not die.  A buffed up sinx, a champ, a full damage prof, a full damage sniper, a full damage gunslinger will not die when they have devo, hence I did not take it into consideration.

That's my opinion anyway.  For me the defensive skills are the problem since you have to switch classes to fight one most of the time while every other class can fight each other.  Some are disadvantaged, but you wouldn't feel the need to switch classes.

You're telling me giving Ninja the ability to 1 shot nearly every class is actually fine? On top of being able to easily use the apple buff, changing the defensive skills in any way won't affect how strong they are, the problem here is the insane amount of damage they've been given, not their defensive skills. You're comparing a full damage prof, sniper, champ, sinx and a gunslinger although none of these classes do even close to the amount of damage a Ninja currently does. A champ doesn't even come close to the amount of damage a Ninja does, even if they were full asura and have stacked their damage up in every way possible.

[p3wp3w]

FS is a disaster. Damage, spam rate, capability with or without thana. Moreover, given that ninjas are invincible in woe with their pally.

 

 

[Rayray]

Are we talking about damage from one skill or total DPS of a class?  Because some of the classes i listed there can deal huge amount of DPS with the correct situation, same with ninja atm. 

Also, the characters i've used (biochemist, stalker, Soul Linker)  in the past month that I encountered ninjas and i did not really got 1 shotted like you claim.  2-4 most of the time i will die if i dont seed, but never 1 hit.

Lastly, if you read my posts in the first page, i already said a little decrease in damage OR delay might work on their part(because some of us believes it is a bit fast to spam considering the damage).  I just put my opinion that i believe that the defensive skills of a ninja is a far greater problem than its damage simply because you have to switch classes to fully combat one.

 

[速い]

53 minutes ago, Rayray said:

Are we talking about damage from one skill or total DPS of a class?  Because some of the classes i listed there can deal huge amount of DPS with the correct situation, same with ninja atm. 

Also, the characters i've used (biochemist, stalker, Soul Linker)  in the past month that I encountered ninjas and i did not really got 1 shotted like you claim.  2-4 most of the time i will die if i dont seed, but never 1 hit.

Lastly, if you read my posts in the first page, i already said a little decrease in damage OR delay might work on their part(because some of us believes it is a bit fast to spam considering the damage).  I just put my opinion that i believe that the defensive skills of a ninja is a far greater problem than its damage simply because you have to switch classes to fully combat one.

 

Unlike only relying on my experience I've tested this with my Ninja myself against my own characters, regardless of what I wear I'm able to either to 1shot or almost 1shot my characters playing on a Ninja. Which classes out DPS a Ninja currently? Doesn't matter how many skills any other class uses, their DPS won't be higher than the amount of damage a Ninja can output at a crazy rate of spam from ONE skill (Final Strike).

[p3wp3w]

and as the title itself says, "Ninja Final Strike (Too Strong Or Weak?)"

 

not the defensive thingy, we all know that gtb defaulted ninja can escape most pvp-attempts.

[Roi]

On 10/25/2016 at 3:47 AM, Rayray said:

Are we talking about damage from one skill or total DPS of a class?  Because some of the classes i listed there can deal huge amount of DPS with the correct situation, same with ninja atm. 

Also, the characters i've used (biochemist, stalker, Soul Linker)  in the past month that I encountered ninjas and i did not really got 1 shotted like you claim.  2-4 most of the time i will die if i dont seed, but never 1 hit.

Lastly, if you read my posts in the first page, i already said a little decrease in damage OR delay might work on their part(because some of us believes it is a bit fast to spam considering the damage).  I just put my opinion that i believe that the defensive skills of a ninja is a far greater problem than its damage simply because you have to switch classes to fully combat one.

 

Idek why you're talking .. You don't even WoE, so you don't realize how OP a Ninja with a Pally and Clown buffs is during WoE.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Roi

[Rayray]

13 hours ago, Roi said:

Idek why you're talking .. You don't even WoE, so you don't realize how OP a Ninja with a Pally and Clown buffs is during WoE.

Because WoE is only held a few times a week and lasts for an hour and it is not the whole game.  You can't balance a class by saying it is OP with Pally and Clown buffs; most classes are OP with those buffs anyway, hence I rather base it on a 1v1 situation versus every other class. 

And again, as I said in my very first post in this very thread, i main a class that had really no problem on ninjas, so i am a bit bias to it.  I don't want that particular build to get the "desperado" treatment on Gunslingers.

Also, let's be exact here.  In your opinion, how much should FS damage?  Give me a number here when using incant and when using thanatos.  Lowering FS damage too much will make people not actually use it.  What's the point of using FS if a simple throwing skill outdamages or is on par with it. 

Example: if it deals 200k, would making it deal 150k be good enough or make it 100k?