Shadi

Firstly Using lex/stone curse has nothing to do with being skilled or unskilled. Both skilled and unskilled champions use it. For Lex, Unskilled champions use it perhaps because they are undergeared and don't know what else to do which would make their lex asura easy to survive as well. Skilled champions use it because they build around it. I'll come back to this in a second. For Stone, more skilled champions use stone curse compared to unskilled ones, because they know when to use it and when not to. An unskilled champion might walk around with a stone curse armor at all times and would get 1-2 hitted by literally everything. Neither owl baron or puppetring generate any random number generation. They add solid percentages to your damage through the lex skill or by removing reduction from the enemy. It's not a random amount of bonus damage so you can't call it random number generation. Proper champs will build around the 2 hit asura, not the 1 hit asura. This means that their build is completely based on speed asura, getting 2 asura's in a row should kill any enemy when geared and used right. The lex chance of 3% gives them a 3% chance to lex on ever asura they do. This means that averagely they need 33 asuras or hits before lex goes off once. You personally just said you think 2 hit asura is acceptable. Well right now 2 hits of asura is the norm to kill someone. not one. Unless someone is lex'd and even then the lex asura won't kill someone that swaps gear effectively. And if you mean 2 hits with lexed asura that'd mean that champions need at least 3/4+ regular asuras to kill a single person. Keep in mind in order to asura a champ has to use 5/6 commands. While ygging or changing an gear item is only one command. Exactly, swapping gear should demonstrate how you can counter another player. If you decide that you don't want to gear swap, then do not expect to survive a lex asura from a geared champ. I'm sorry but 'not wanting to swap gears' because it's not a 'main consideration/concern' in your opinion is not a reason to nerf anything. You can not simply expect to beat all classes/players by wearing 1 gear set at all times. Making use of lex/stone curse, specially stone curse has nothing to do with luck, it's simply countering someone from their gear usage. it's not 'luck' that gives the stone curse effect, it's timing of item swapping that does so. As for Lex, as explained before champions gear/build to 2 hit people. People will have to consider the possibility of getting lexed and thus should carry gears against it. All this does not lower skill-cap as you claimed. it highers the skill cap from both parties. Not only is the champ forced to change items, so is the enemy. I don't think you quite understood my point here. I'm not talking about a specific champion build. I am talking about everything that fights against the champ can simply go full damage gear without any concern about being countered whatsoever. This removes skill from the game and allows every class to brainlessly wear full damage gear without any concern whatsoever. I have no idea why you're talking about deleting classes and such, it's completely unrelated to what I said. Lessening the chances is an option, but personally I think having to hit an average of 33 times to lex once and then making sure you don't accidentally hit again before the asura is already small enough of a chance. I didn't leave out any important point that you've made. You claim everyone got a gr, skill and raydric as default. Yes that's obvious and it should be that way, because you want to slightly counter any encounter before it even starts, after that you change gear depending on whom and what you are fighting. You claim you know how to counter it, yet you don't want to put on the gears to counter it. You can't ask to change items because you find a certain class build 'boring'. Yes, some champ users only know how to asura. What's the problem? If all they can do is asura then you can easily make them utterly useless by changing gears. I don't see the problem here.

I personally have played prof for a while know, and there is no way in hell that I could call them useless. Their bolts can still kill pretty easily and their survivability is extremely good. However the bolt delay does seem a tad too much to me. I personally completely agree with the nerf done to bolt spam as it was one of the skills that got abused with third party programs, not just on SN but also on prof. The nerf however seems just a tad too big and I can see how this effects wizards and chemists as well. Since they don't have double bolt I feel like the spam right now is too slow to form any kind of threat (specially for chemists). Bottom line: I completely support the decision to nerf the spamrate of the most-abused skills such as the bolts. The delay just seems a tad too high for me, specially for wizard/chemist. The bowling bash delay however seems perfect to me, it is still fast enough to easily kill but is no longer as abuse-able as before.

Almost every class has the skillset to be the best class. And in the case of a good champ, there is no random number generation. builds will be made surrounding the 2hit kills or one hit lex kills. Swapping gear is not a main consideration but it is a major part of pvp. Noone forces you to change gears, and it's not needed to have a 'fun way of pvping' for casuals, but you can not expect to be one of the top pvpers if you don't know how to or don't want to gearswap. it is a major thing in RO, it is definitely NOT like playing rock paper scissors. Good players will know (based on the damage they do and other factors) what the enemy is wearing. They will be able to swap gears based on that. It's not a rock paper scissors game which is based on pure luck. it's actually mostly based on skill and knowledge about the game. Removing these options would severely lower the skillcap in FRO. Specially from everyone fighting vs champs, as you will from that moment on only need to slap on a full damage set and easily wreck the champ without him/her being able to stop you or counter you in any way shape or form. You will force champs to get full damage from every single class while they themselves can not go full damage without being countered. The chances of lex happening right now already are very minimal. I don't see any reason to nerf stone or lex in any way. The chances are low and both are pretty easy to deal with in the first place. If champs really would do nothing but spam asura, they'd be extremely easy to shut down/beat.

Well this is another point to bring up. They expect a reward, they don't expect an emp. Right now a single emp can help gear multiple people by selling the emp and buying suitable gear for multiple guildmembers instead of giving an emp to one player. Emp is in no way a crucial part of any build and highering the drop chance would indeed give more people an emp. but it would also be less rewarding to get an emp as a guild. If guilds truly are concerned about gearing their members, they would sell the emp and not make a list as to whom will get the emp next. The high prices of emps benefit guilds more than highering the droprate and making them much much less rewarding. It is not about giving everyone an emp. it's about rewarding everyone for their efford. Lets give an example. If your guild gets an emp right now you got what 6k tokens instantly? You can gear up multiple people with that, or sell it and get like 5 people similar auras that are just as good. As to if you higher the drop chances and the prices do drop back down to 400. You'd have to give an emp to each person individually. Selling wouldn't be an option because it would no longer have enough benefit to support multiple people at once. Sure you'll have a tiny bit more emps to sell, but it would never give you the same value as it is now. + If more emps out there the demand will quickly drop as well making the emps way harder to sell than they are now. Everything combined, highering the drop chance of the emps is not an appropriate solution for the problems described in this topic. Also only highering drop chance from the old colors makes no sense at all. It just shows that the purpose of the topic is to make the old emps drop value so that the new ones become even more expensive and 'rare' compared to other drops. In other words this seems like a suggestion to make the rich (owners of the newest emps) richer and the average/poor even poorer. True newer items have a higher demand. This is where the supply and demand part kicks in and decides the actual price of the emp. Thus, changing to drop chance is not a solution as the prices already differ due to desire for the new ones.

I disagree for a few reasons: 1: The only reason offered in this topic for actually changing it is because 'it's too hard to get' or it 'is too expensive' I don't see these as reasons for changing it I will explain this further in point 2. Additonally I don't see if you'd change the drop rate why it would only be the older emps that had their drop chance changed. If you really suggested this so that 'newbies' can get gear faster, you'd suggest all emp's droprates to be highered not just the old ones. This leads me to believe that you simply want the old emps to drop value so that the new ones become even more expensive and 'rare' compared to other drops. In other words this seems like a suggestion to make the rich (owners of the newest emps) richer and the average/poor even poorer. 2: Noone forces anyone to get an EMP. In fact there's other, and in most cases better, aura's to get for lower geared people. No offense but this is completely false. The amount of effort previously put in by players years ago to get geared was many many many times more than the effort required now to get geared. Quest sets have greatly improved and have become way easier to get. You can get fully geared simply by voting as well. There's a ton of new aura's that can easily replace the emp and do not require as much tokens. Getting geared has become extremely easy compared to the way it was before. 3: Prices are decided based on supply and demand. It's the community that decides the actual price, so if you want to blame someone, blame the sellers and the buyers. I do not feel like it's the GM's job to change things to regulate the economy. Prices are oftenly based on preference as well. The demand for example orange emp, was larger than for green, Thus orange emp was sold for more. But the droprate was the same! It's all regulated by supply and demand, and I don't see simply increasing supply as a good alternative.

Champions don't have a major advantage over most classes, not even over the class that they are supposed to have a major advantage against. This is where our opinions differ once again. Stalker can easily outlast a champ, force a strip, he can stay on ranged, deal ranged damage he can do physical damage. And BB can do a ton more damage than 17k per BB if you do it right.. Champions don't have any major advantages over stalker, just their playstyle is way different. Champ is an in your face playstyle while stalker has a lot more versitility in the way it plays. Safety wall is alot easier to recast than a pneuma if the prof is standing still, not to mention that even if you manage to pneuma you'll still have a 75% skill fail chance. Also the prof will have quite a lot more hp than that even without tao. More like 180k . and your asura will do about 100-110k max on energy coat, double ray frigs usakoring. Not to mention the 5% from ring, or skull aura. And your FO will also have a 75% skill fail chance + have it's damage reduced by an extra 75%. So if they wanted to they could even go double deviling and your asura would do nothing, your fo wouldn't do much either cause of the fail chance and reduced damage. 1: You won't get anything off if you're gonna be snapping and pneuma-ing. so no major advantages here. By the time pneuma is up he's next to you. 2: FO is never going to kill a supernovice. + they can just recast pneuma just as easy. 3: Champs having chasing potential sure. But again, not a big advantage over other classes. Sinx and stalker can chase fine as well, pally can do too, ninja's too, LK's too. Tons of classes can chase. 4: I already explained prof stuff above. 5: Well then you haven't fought Lk's that use their skills effectively. 6: Sure running is better than nothing in some cases but it's not gonna win you the fight so :P 1:Having high hp does mean they have more survivability. They survive more than a champ does. Technically , that means they have more survivability. Sure champion has mobility, but one quick burst and a champ is dead, while SN can live through the burst. 2: I don't underestimate FO. Sure lets say you do 12k each sphere, that's 60k each fo, you'd have to do an averae of 4-5 fo's to kill a normal geared person. Sorry but if they can't cloak, backslide or ygg within 5 fo's then they're just not paying attention. 3: Classes have counters to being kited, either ranged skills, survivability skills , a lot of stuff. Yes champions can indeed snap and magnumbreak, which gives them quite a bit cd after MB. Same with hitting someone with ruwach, your sprite will be stuck for a bit as well, enough time for people to re-hide if needed. 4: Yes it is, being unpredictable is not just useful from the champ though, also for his enemy. A sudden reflect armor or anything can change a fight. 7: Things such as wtfast don't bring ping to the actual server lower than 115-120. Pingzapper might go a tad lower but not a lot. If you see pings such as 30-50 then that's the ping you have to the server from the program that you're using, like a wtfast server or pingzap server, not the actual fro game server.

1:Exactly, going full damage has it's counters as for WS, you can get frozen, but ship captain doesn't work for them so aod is their damage hat. Also stone curse effect is triggered with CT. Reflect isn't but stone curse is. 2: Yes that's the common gear but as explained many times already there's a ton of switching involved if you want to do it right which will all disappear if you disable these for champions, you'll have a sinx cloak for example, you'll have a GR/OL armor as well, you'll have different aura if you don't default skull aura. You'll have different manteaus such as deviling ones as well, You should be switching to ring of ressonance during the fight as well and get the assumptio, You got a gtb or maya or alice shield, a double reflect armor and more. This all will no longer be necessary if you nerf this, people can just go double ray, ghost high risk, shipcaptain hat, deal massive amounts of damage while being pretty much safe for everything. The fact that you think there's little gear switching is involved is the reason why you think Lex/stone curse is OP. You don't use any of it's counters. 3: You've just proven a point. All classes will be able to go full damage, but if a champ wants to go full damage they have to give up half their HP. Seems fair? Not really no. That's why there's other counters vs other classes going full damage. There's no reason to remove those counters. 4: You're basing this on absolutely nothing, no elaboration whatsoever. This entire suggestion is about gears, and thus gear options should be discussed. You're just attempting to change focus away from that because you want it nerfed due to not being able to deal with it. 5: Outsmarting your enemy is something you do with gearswapping way more often than with skill use, any regular pvp'er knows what any other class can do. Outsmarting just on skill usage won't happen often. Sure you can have some good unexpected moves such an pneuma-ing behind a target and pps'ing them into the pneuma so they can't safety wall themselves. However the real outsmarting is done by changing gears on the right moment and catching your enemy off guard. It's a good combo yes, but like everything else it has it's counters :) If the LK is fast enough he can kill the sniper during stone curse, if not then he at least can get close , and by changing to the stone curse armor he'd force the sniper into his ED armor. That's what gearswapping is about, you adapt your gears based on the enemy and force them to change gears as well, if the sniper switches to ED his HP would lower, as he'd obviously default double tao vs an LK. If this is implemented all snipers have to do is equip one gear set and dish out damage. Sure they use their traps? So? it'll still be a fight without any gear swapping whatsoever just because you've just boosted all classes vs only one specific class. There's no balance in that. Why would snipers be allowed to do xx% more damage by using Capt. hat vs a champ, but a champ can't do the same vs a sniper cause he'd get stoned within no time. Makes 0 sense whatsoever. Any class is good enough with the skillset that they have or have gotten through our custom gear. This is not a reason to buff or nerf a class. You buff or nerf a class once it's imbalanced beyond control , you don't nerf a class because the class "Can also be good without these cards" This is true, yet a big part of gear swapping not about the class you are playing, but the class the enemy is playing and the gear the enemy is using. You have a standard set but you want to be able to respond to what your enemy does. Not simply wear 1 set all the time. They are partly opportunists, they take the chances (which already are fairly low) of getting a lex or stone off and hope that they don't play vs someone that knows how to deal with those things. But another part of them is not an oppertunist that part is simply responding to what the enemy is doing. If they go full damage then you know how to counter it. So just because you won the ladder a few times you say the other classes can't take down champions? I'd recommend you to pvp in for_fild instead of the pvp arena. the majority of the good pvpers pvp there instead of in the arena. Besides that winning ladder a few times on a certain class proves nothing. 1: we don't know what classes you fought 2: We don't know who played those classes 3: We don't know any of the situations pvp was in, (perhaps party/gang related) etc. Boyog is not an ungeared champ, he basically has full gear. he also is known for his usage of gospel and provoke. So It's kind of an awkward example to make, but yes, some lowergeared champions can put up a fight vs geared players. But same goes for professors, same goes for supernovices, same goes for LKs. The set that you wear doesn't mean half as much as the cards that you use in it. So why take their card options away and screw over lower geared people even more?

Here's the difference. Asura is always neutral. The bolts could be any of the 3 elements (4 if you count soul strike). It was impossible to gear against and the matk had gotten out of hand. to a point that equipping gtb would get yourself killed in 2-3 stave crashers. My professor was able to pull off 200 up to 450k bolts without lex. This whole topic isn't about champions doing enough damage or dealing enough damage without them. it's about completely removing any counters a champion can have to someone going full damage. It's about giving all classes a major boost vs the champion class by leaving a champion defenseless against the full damage gear that we have on this server. That is how gear switching works. You can not expect to equip a single item and be able to withstand everything because of it. No everything has it's counters including the resist cards, including lex, including stone curse. I do not agree with simplifying pvp further by removing those gear options and allowing people to always wear a full damage set vs champion without consequences and without any thought involved. The thanatos was nerfed because there was no way to protect yourself from thanatos fo + asura when skolls were equipped. Profs were nerved because there was no way to protect yourself from their way too high matk, Lex and stone however, there's plenty of ways to protect yourself from those or dealing with them effectively as proven in this topic. so I can not see this as the same thing. Here's another thing you could do. Use gears instead of tao cards to give you HP, wear for example, GR + OL in your armor. double raydric, skull aura. What does this do ? Champ's have no way to apply a thanatos effect. without tao gunka you'll be stacking on physical armor. This will reduce their FO damage unless they use incant card in their weapon, which on it's own turn would lower their asura damage again. Changing to things such as these would force the champion to constantly having to switch weapons if he even wants to utilize his FO to the slightest bit. There's so many options to use, so many things you can equip to counter stone or lex. People just have to look into the options and learn how to use them.

No it's more like the other way around. These items allow a lower geared champion to also win a fight at times. The items do not bring any bigger disadvantage to lower geared people than other gearpiece difference would make. 1. The bolts definitely deals more damage than mamo, i won't disagree with you with your statement, but the success of this class depends on what its fighting. Since this thread is about champions, doing mamo to a champ is a bit useless, since the champ will be using yggs for spamming asura, hp will be no issue from constant 30k damage. Well since the champ would be wearing rsx and ghost, he'd be dead in less than 5 mamo's so it would definitely do work. and that's vs usakoring not gtb. So no champion doesn't have a major advantage here. Same explanation as above but this time the champ is on tao ghost probably so just force him to gtb = 4 mamo's or so. also champs can try all they want to kite a SN, SN can simply hide in pneuma vs that and force the champion to get close. + SN can survive lex asura easier than 90% of the classes on the server atm. Again no major advantage for the champion. Totally depends on the gear from the champ. Stalkers could use magnum break to hit them out of pneuma and ds. or use pushback evenom even. Once the champ uses rsx, he dies in 2-3BB's or so max. 5. This is probably the only class that everyone has difficulty fighting, except for bio, yet all of the damage can still be avoided by a champion by snaps + pneumas. Sure champions can run, just like sinx can backslide, stalkers can backslide too and Taekwon class can use running. But uhm goodluck beating the pally then. Also whitesmiths have no problems fighting pallies. LK's should have no problem either. 6. Yeah that's true fundamentally, but if you actually played a prof in game, it wouldn't work out as well. A prof would have to wear rsx, so it wouldn't be pushed out of safety wall and blinding mist, making it's hp ~120k+. If you wear a tao the max hp gets bumped up to a whopping 180k. They too have the skill magic coat so they have more reduct, but other than that, gtb really cripples them. If they were to go up 1v1 against the champion, it would probably have no chance of winning, with gtb and pneuma. Since you're constantly talking about 1vs1. It'll be impossible for a champion to beat a good prof in a 1 vs 1. With rsx + ghost armor, double immune and energy coat. Safety wall and blinding mist. There's no way the prof would die from a champion, and eventually will wear the champion down since profs can carry quite a lot of seeds vs the heavy berries champs have to use. Not to mention champs spend more berries than profs spend on seeds. Snap+ magnum break is not going to kill anyone, not to mention champs have quite a big cooldown after magnum break delay and animation wise. I don't see those classes have a disadvantage over champs at all. I'm sorry the above doesn't seem to proof anything to me. I still haven't seen any of the real 'advantages' champs have compared to the classes I mentioned. I haven't seen a single reason why champion would be the 'master race' either. They are master race because they can 'kite' those classes ? Well lets see. 1: A good creator will have a lif, and has ranged magic + AD. Good luck kiting that cause creators still run at very high speed even with decrease agi on them. 2: Sure go ahead and try to kite a SN. Won't be much use though he can just pneuma up and force you to come close. 3: Kiting a stalker. I'm assuming you didn't mean that. 4: Kitiing a prof. He'll just stay in his mist/safety wall. Nothing ya can do. 5: Kite an LK. That's not going to happen with vital strike, spiral pierce and charge attack. 6: Kite an Pally, that's not gonna do much for you either. I can go on. Everything depends on how someone uses their class. Champions do NOT have a major advantage over any of these classes. 1: Best survivability?? Paladins? LKs? SN's? SinX? Champs have a rather low HP modifier compared to most classes on here. They have mobility but they drop like flies by burst. 2: After snap there's a set cooldown, champ's can't asura for several seconds and well FO won't kill them too fast + forced to get them out of cloak first 3: Most classes have counters to being kited 4:It takes 8 skills to be casted for 2 asuras, plenty of time to ygg in between 5: Well they don't know how to use champion then xD; 6: Erm , most of the classes I mentioned can carry about 600 seeds. 7: They only reduce to a certain amount, not low enough to play it as effectively.

No thanks, fighting as and fighting vs champion is a lot more complicated now as it would be when you remove these options. All you'd have to go vs a champion is go full damage gear, with AoD or Ship captain. You'd remove a big part of the champ's gear switching and you'd remove ALL gear switching away from the enemy of the champion. This simplifies pvp and takes away from the "Skill" and "thought" in a battle. There is no way that removing these makes the game more skillfull or thoughtful. It takes half an hour to hunt hundreds if not thousands of the boxes. you can simply keep using them and like I said, you can use maya P but change gears before you hit them. Sorry but now cloaking champions are a problem too? It's starting to seem that you just want to nerf everything that manages to beat you. It allows you to dodge some of their hits yet, but that isn't a counter to someone going full damage gears against you. I just don't see how it'll help to nerf champions in this way. You want everyone to just be able to brainlessly go full damage vs a champion without any risks whatsoever. I don't see the use of that. I also don't see why champions should be nerfed as they're not OP in any way , shape or form at this moment. Simply because they have pneuma/snap they can be nerfed? That really makes 0 sense. That's like saying well supernovices have safety wall so we can nerf tao gunka for them.... Also, yes I know about the undead property but it STILL comes down to the same thing. If you want to go full damage vs ANY class (including champion) then you should expect being countered by defensive gear. If you don't want to be stoned then wear regular gear and wear an fsoldier. Ship captain hat, AOD hat, Loli hat, piamette hat (yes of course you speak about matk too as magic classes will be using stave crasher vs gtb users, they will be stoned by wearing their massive matk hats, with your change they'd be able to stave crasher with about 50% more damage to champs without risking any trouble). It changes gameplay also if you do not 'rely' on those cards. because it simply removes options that you could've used in certain situations. Any class needs switching options to deal with different situations. If you do not use those options then you're not optimizing your damage output / survivability. And please don't act like other's don't have a chance vs champions right now. Almost any class can take down a champion right now and same goes for the other way around. And how do they have a chance to win vs a champ 'based on their made mistakes' any easier with these changes compared to before? Because they can brainlessly go full damage without any worries? People should win fights based on their skill and the enemies' mistakes. Not by nerfing one class and granting the others a major gear advantage. Right now they both have access to the gear options and there's counters to each of the gears the other wears. I'm sorry? I've only seen one person so far agree with disabling puppetring because he couldn't afford an fsoldier card. that's not a valid reason for disabling it. As for the ones agreeing with the suggestion to disable the rest.

Again, just because one doesn't specifically need the items to kill someone doesn't mean that you should remove the option to use these gears. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1: 1.I tried a mamo build with Biochemist, using the cursed ring, the average damage that was dealt was 30k.. its not very strong..I was implying the use of thanatos.. the thanatos card stacked with mamo does hella damage to someone who isn't prepared. 2. Mamo is rarely seen again in game, and the last time i saw a successful hybrid SN in game (last year ago) forced people to wear gtb, due to high damage with bolts, and switched to mamo to deal the finishing blows. Otherwise, they would deal an average of 20-40k damage depending on how highly they invested in str. 3. I now agree that spiral pierce is very powerful, i saw it ingame with my friend, and she said that lk cursed only adds ~300 damage per hit. But still does 30k per spiral pierce average. 4. Stalkers nowadays play very efficiently, they utilize soul link, backslide, and their Stealth skill to its full potential, along with Fas. They are very annoying to fight and takes a long time. Using bowling bash to get infont of someone's face would be more ineffective. 5. I recently fought a battle pally in the Pvp room, and he got a total of 800+ kills, the only way i would die was by getting my armor broken, other than that, the constant damage of shield chain and holy cross wasn't gonna do it. 6. Again, without thanatos, stave crasher would do an average of 35k on gtb users. And you say profs can be immortal yet claim that champs aren't? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (for some reason it won't let me quote the above) 1: RSX/ghost will leave anyone with very low hp, mamonite would easily wreck them. If you still fail to kill with mamonite you also can spam your bolts and force someone to gtb. then your mamo will definitely kill the target. Creators are all about forcing the enemy to swap gear. 2: Just because it's rarely seen doesn't mean that it isn't viable. SN can force people to gtb and easily dish out the 40k's you mentioned. And since mamonite has no after skill delay and SN's attack animation is very short it can be spammed easily and fast. 4: Stalkers right now are inefficient. Sure you can utilize backslide and link properly but using fas as a copied skill is very inefficient due to both skills being ranged. If you use bowling bash pneuma won't be a problem for you, rsx won't be a problem for you. Also these examples were listed to show that there's a lot of classes that can both utilize melee and ranged or magic damage. Which was the reason you claimed that champs are 'master race'. 5: Battle paladins can do great damage, even without breaking armor. But aside from their damage they got their survivability that's way higher than most classes. Again I stated these to show viable options for ranged and melee. 6: There's a major difference in survivability between a professor and a champion. Champions survive due to mobility more than anything else. Professors (when played correctly) can make themselves almost immune for ranged, physical and magical damage. Not to mention that professors' hp is quite a lot higher than champ's one. As the above proves there's many classes that all have their own ups and downs, many classes with ranged and melee potential. Not just champions. So I don't see in what way champions are in such a major advantage that you have to nerf their gear options. I just gave you 6 examples. Do you need more? Or you mean champ's downsides? Ok here's a few: 1: Squishy compared to most classes 2: Easy to reduce damage from their highest damaging skill 3: Easy to reduce damage from their ranged skill and at the same time reducing their highest damaging skill. 4: Extremely vulnerable to reflect more than any other class 5: Reliant on having full mana and thus forced to use berries instead of seeds = less sustainability compared to seed users 6: Something none balanced related but: needs low ping to utilize properly. How do their utility skills stop anyone from going full damage? Does pneuma stop someone from equiping full damage gear? No. Does root stop anyone from equipping full damage gear? No. Does asura stop them from doing so? No. These are not direct counters to someone going full damage gear. Removing stone and lex allows players to constantly wear full damage gear vs champs without any risk whatsoever. So yes this definitely does effect gameplay, it effects gameplay in a sense that champion has no more switching options for full damage enemies, and it effects gameplay for enemies that can brainlessly always go full damage vs champs because they can't equip the full damage counters anyway. Also stone curse can also help profs/paladins/ninja's to one shot at times. 10+mil asuras has nothing to do with the thanatos cards. It's AK card and anti element/race cards that made that damage. TSS/FO originally was effected by thanatos, and is effected by the new thanatos effect as well. However the thanatos card does nothing for champs with double fbh so it's basically useless for TSS/FO atm. I do have a big problem with limiting gear options because it takes the 'skill' and 'thought' out of the game. Like you said it'll be 'one less thing to deal with' in other words lets stick people stuck on their 1 item set and remove any thought of gear swapping away. That's something negative imo, not positive. I do not see the problem here? Almost every class has something to get them out of stealth. next to that there's the option to equip maya p for a second to see them and change once you attack them. Or better yet simply use box of sunlight. Problem solved. None of the mentioned classes have a big disadvantage vs champs. As long as you utilize them correctly. Yes professors might have a hard time, but the champ will have a hard time vs the professor as well. etc.

All percentage skills in RO scale well... because they are % based they scale with our higher stats. 1: vs pneuma you got cart revelation or magnum break, vs gtb you can mamonite or AD. use of skolls? what does that have to do with anything ? any class can use skolls, 2: Supernovices have more than enough stats to do so, they hardly need agility for max aspd, they hardly need dex for instant cast, they don't need vit for HP. So yes, they can split almost all stats on those. If you want to go 100% matk supernovice, that's your choice but you limit your battle options cause they definitely are not limited to just matk. 3: Spiral pierce is incredibly powerful, if used well LK's can keep distance with spear stab, vital strike and spiral pierce. Together with being tanky and as soon as someone uses rsx, bowling bash would wreck. 4: It has been very succesful for a long time. Just not a lot of people play stalkers effectively or at all nowadays. Their HP is fine though. 5: Paladins really don't need to break an armor to do damage, yes if you break an armor and remove their ghost you basically can one shot people with shield chain but it's not neccesary to kill. 6: It's definitely not just a filler if you know what you're doing. Profs can be nearly immortal to most classes when played right and stave crasher can do serious damage vs gtb users. Either way with all the examples, champs do not have a major advantage over all the other classes. Champs have many downsides as well just like any class does. Yes they have utility skills, that doesn't mean they are able to counter someone from going full damage gear-wise. Every other class however will be able to stop other classes from going full damage. How would this be fair in any way? disabling it only for one class ? Champs are in no way OP at this moment, I see absolutely no reason to nerf them or their gear options and force them to take full damage from every single physical class in the game. What? No. Thanatos' original effect doesn't even effect asura strike. It was nerfed because asura is able to force people to go double raydrics and having thanatos effect on FO while forcing people to go raydrics with asura would be too strong. That's why it was nerfed. Perhaps that's because your suggestion includes balance and includes a nerf to a certain class by limiting it's gear options.

A good supernovice would be able to counter gtb card. The cape thing is different than this suggestion though, the capes are giving the Supernovice class buffs that were meant for other classes. For champions, this is not the case. Everyone can use stonecurse, everyone can use lex. Just not everyone can uses the capes from other classes. That's the only reason why the capes should not be wearable by supernovices. The effects were made for specific classes, not for the SN one. This is, erm horsecrap.. if I may say it politely. Any change with gear swapping or card setups effects gameplay, it effects builds and it effects the classes in general. A good champ right now (that is willing to use lex) will alter their build so he kills everything in 2 asuras, but won't make it strong enough so that 1 OL or some simple reflect will kill him in one none lex hit. You on purposely weaken your regular asura to be able to kill people in 2 and be safe for low reflect gear. Knowing that as soon as you double asura or lex you will kill either way. As for champ's being the 'master race' because they have ranged and close combat. Here's some other classes that have multiple ways to fight if used well: 1: Creator: Creators can use both AD/Magic build or better yet, an Hybrid build between mamonite and magic+AD. (Range + short + magic) 2: A SN has Magic damage and if you're decent at it you'll have a hybrid build again. Magic + melee to counter gtb users. (Magic + short) 3: LK has Bowling bash, vital strike etc and a skill that's really good but highly underused Spear boomerang + spiral pierce. (Melee and range) 4: Stalkers can go bow style with for example bowling bash copied (Range ds+ bb melee) 5: Paladins have holy cross and shield chain in a str based build (Melee + ranged) 6: Profs have bolts + stave for gtb which does physical damage so (magic + pshysical) The list goes on. Almost every class has melee and ranged abilities that can be used to high potential on this server. There's a difference between needing them and utilizing them. If you remove these you allow people to just go full damage gear vs any champ because there's no way for them to counter it. Changing gear at the right time in the right situation requires knowledge of the game/items and requires awareness. It can give you the edge in a fight and it's not something that should be nerfed by limiting champ's options. It would be an indirect nerf to many classes if you'd remove the usage of these cards. removing it for only the champ would give other classes the advantage of using both stone curse and lex while they cant. That means that champ indeed gets nerfed compared to the other classes, because battle options get taken away from them. It's the same as the change to the thanatos card. It was only changed for champion into a way weaker effect. This removed a battle option for champions and thus is considered a nerf to the class. (Don't get me wrong the thanatos effect should be different for champs, but it's almost useless right now for champs). It's not about what's 'fair' counterplay and what's not. The options are there and they should be. Yes double devi's would leave you vulnerable, this is why your changing gear and the timing of it is essential. If using lex on a champion is considered unfair, then we'll have to move on to other 'unfair' stuff as well. We'd have to disable people from getting provoke from others, we'll have to disable gospell from giving double damage, we'll have to disable tons of stuff. Yes a champ could use sight, but how many champs on this server do you think have a horong card carded in their loki? Not a lot, I can tell you that much. Cloaking is just one of the many ways to counter it, it shouldn't be too hard figuring them out.

I highly disagree with this suggestion. Everything has it's counters, including lex aetherna and stone curse. Why should those only be disabled for one class? Just because asura can one hit someone that's lexed or stoned? Any good pvper will be immune to stone curse. And if you insist on wearing gear to boost your damage even higher and give up on that immunity then that's your choice, but don't use it as an excuse to indirectly nerf a class. Over time other classes have received major buffs (through valk weapons and rings) while all champ buffs remained very low and limited. I don't feel like champs need any nerfs at all, they're certainly possible to deal with and are (imo) one of the best balanced classes on the server. Of course there is counterplay. It's called gearswapping and it's very essential in a pvp server such as this one. Double OL armor? Alice shield on top maybe? or the other way around, changing to double deviant, switching boots to double ferus/GEC/AF. All ya need to do is survive the one hit he does. Or stay on range ? or use sinx card and force him to uncloak you with ruwach = lex gone. There's a lot of things you can do to counter it/ fight against it.

Sniper - Don't really see any sniper that impresses me. Maybe master_fire. Sinx - Fia Bio - Ray/Bombin/Airi Priest - Don't see any impressive ones Champion - Poking Airi without a doubt Wizard - Gurkak and myself (hurhur I so confident :P) Professor - None atm that really impress me. Whitesmith - Aki/Lifery Soul Linker - Airichu Lord Knight - Supream Paladin - Yummi as devotion Paladin, Holy Airi as battle paladin. Gypsy - Morrigan<3 quite long ago. Clown - Again none really impress me. Stalker: Aaron

I'm not thinking about short battles at all and I have no idea what leads you to that conclusion. With the current spamrate of SD, it'll never drain more seeds than the enemy draining the Sinx's seeds with their range skills not even if SD would be doing 80k+ hits on usakoring frigs. In fact SD sinx won't be able to carry as much seeds as most other classes in their SD build so it shouldn't just be used to lower the opponents seeds. Again your melee dmg in an SD build will not be as high as in a regular build. Increase SD damage all you want, with a spam like the current one people will never die from it. and simply using a skill to "lower enemies seeds" is not very efficient. Why would any sinx give up their melee build just so they have a build that can lower someone's seeds and then do less damage to finish someone off, instead of going full melee and just finishing them off within seconds without the need to try and lower someone's seeds.

Can agree with adding arrow shower and the change in stats to be more physical oriented with one of the rings. However I disagree with the crit bonus, that's simply pushing people to the FAS build while we already have people using FAS build so much. We want versatility options not a boost to the already existing methods that we stalkers have.

Alright this topic has some pretty good points and I'll share my opinion on this. I think anyone with a clear mind sees that something has to be done about supernovices, especially superbabies. Now I've read the arguments that went back and forth between Ray and Kayla and I can actually agree with both of them. It is true that SN were strong but not considered as 'OP' before they started using the rings. In my honest opinion the rings are the thing that cause supernovices to go over the top. However, that doesn't mean that removing the rings from supernovices is the best way to re-balance it. Removing the rings from them would also require (as far as I know) every ring and cape item to be edited individually to have no effects for supernovices. Is this the best solution? I don't know. I think that removing imp/siroma cards would be a big first step to reduce their way too high magic damage. But just having high matk is not what makes them OP. It's a combination of many things. In my opinion it's a combination of the following in random order: 1: They have skills to use for every situation, offensive and defensive. 2: They have additional stats 3: They are receiving buffs that are not supposed to be for their class 4: They have the same HP as the tankiest class in the game without the use of vit and with a way higher damage output. 5: Due to their low vit they'll never need skolls. While having the same HP as a full vit pally, they remain untouched by thanatos even without skolls Now there's multiple ways to fix this issue. Each of the solutions mentioned below will somewhat re-balance the class. These solutions are seperate and are not supposed to be seen as combined solutions: 1: Remove the use of other class-rings by the supernovice class 2: Remove siroma/imp effects for SN 3: Change the tao gunka effect to make SN more like other classes. By this I mean Add more HP by 1 tao gunka card but cancel the effect when 2 tao cards are worn. What will this do? It'll lower the overall HP from a SN leaving them more vurnerable to reflect from their own damage and gangs, and giving them the option to use GR without dropping to 150k hp. This way they can still survive at least 1 asura but they can not brainlessly spam their bolts without having to care about reflect. It also gives other classes aside from champs a bigger chance vs SN because right now the 600k+ HP is rediculous. My goal would be giving them around 240-250k hp with 1 tao/gr on 100 vit in total. Also just to point 1 thing out: You never ever ever go reflect gear vs a SN in their current state. Any decent SN can NOT die by reflect from his own damage. Their HP pool is simply too big for that.

I already made a suggestion about this long ago. Adding damage to SBK will not do ANY good. The spam rate is utterly low and even if you boost up the damage by about 1000%. it'll still not be able to kill anything. The average damage on 1 weapon on a full sbk build is about 15k max. With a spamrate of about 1/3 of FAS. It's not more damage that is needed. it's simply the 10% after skill delay that kitty claws have should be added to the loki's blade. This way their damage will remain low but their spam rate of sbk will be fast. If you're willing to try it out, just try using SBK first with a shield and 1 loki's blade. Try your spam and damage. After that switch to kitty claws and try your spam. You will notice that there isn't that much of a damage difference but the spamrate of kitty claws makes it viable. However since SBK sinx need both int and str to do decent damage, being forced to wear a 2 handed weapon is suicide. Therefore the suggested rings in this topic won't do anything to make an SBK build viable. To view my previous topic you can find it here : http://www.forsaken-ro.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=25397 . It has been placed into reviewed but no answer was given whether something will be done with it. Up until now I still don't know :(.

Can I also get one skill that allows my ws to use all buff skills? Cause you know we have to waste a lot of time keeping multiple buffs up at all times :P. No but honestly, I highly doubt this is needed. Though, I'm fine if the skill is added it won't make a major difference balance wise if GS will be able to summon all coins at once.

It can cause status effects yes, such as freeze, meltdown etc. However dispell and strip can't be caused by skills other than the original dispel and strip skills. In other words, you cant autocast a strip or dispell skill by using another skill such as throw tommahawk.

The suggestion wasn't made to directly change the balance of WS. It was made to produce an additional playstyle for the whitesmith. One that includes more close-range damage, but at the same time leaves them more vurnerable with their natural weaknesses. Keep in mind this is a change to the old oriental blade weapon, not the newer thor weapon :). I agree with you there are other jobs that require more attention at this time. However this suggestion has been here for several months already so I decided to bump it up a little :). That's perfectly fine. but that's entirely the purpose of this suggestion. Giving the option to WS to have a different playstyle. :)

Nice to see some discussion going on here. I'll elaborate some things for the ones that worry about this. Firstly, to take your worries away, SBK (even with 100% reduction on cd) can not stunlock like acid demonstration or spiral pierce can. It's only a single hit, not multiple hits so you will not stagger as much by SBK spam as you do to AV/AD/Spiral. Secondly, the damage they will be doing is utterly low compared to other classes. It'll do about 1/3 max of FAS damage but then it'll be spammed faster. This means people will have more time to react and it'll be easier to ygg through.[/size] As for these concerns. First things first, setting such a delay on a character's escape ability is out of the question. Why would you go for a range build if your class no longer has a way to stay in range?[/size] Secondly, SBK can not cause status effects from cards. While throw tommahawk can cause status effects. You're turning things around here. Sinx will be able to kite like a stalker, only their damage and survivability will be a lot less. Stalkers can go ranged just by adding dex. By going dex they get attack speed (maximum), and damage. If SinX want to be effective at range they need STR for dmg, INT int for dmg, AGI for attack speed and DEX for hit. Therefore they will have little vit and thus won't be as "tanky" as people are trying to claim atm. Some additonal info on the skill: Being ranged, the skill is completely blocked by Pneuma. Enchant Deadly Poison does not affect Soul Breaker's damage in any way. +% Cards do not affect Soul Breaker's damage in any way. Status cards' effects do not carry. Ice Pick and Combat Knife affects only the physical part. Double strafe spam will remain faster than 100% delay reduction soulbreaker. Specially due to it hitting twice.[/size] You're thinking about autoattack sinx/crit sinx. SBK sinx however won't be as tanky as explained above, they need multiple stats for their damage, not a single stat like melee sinx do. So sbk sinx will have a lot less vit compared to for example crit ones (crit doesn't need dex or int). As for the not being able to counter. Stalkers are very tanky classes in this server and they have a strong bow + can backslide. Does it make them OP? I believe not.[/size] Myself, as one of the only wiz players on this server simply do not agree/get this statement. No, builds will not be similar. Wizards don't need str for their magic to do damage, sinx however do need str with their magic skill. And as explained twice already, ranged sinx wont have a huge hp pool. Adding onto that SBK will never ever reach the damage from JT spam. JT spam is supposed to be so much higher because it's easy to block and even used against the caster. [/size] 30k will never be reached unles the target wears no shield or unless it's thana on none skoll OR the sinx is full sbk build and uses 2 weapons as well. This'll leave them very squishy. (being able to be 1-2 hitted by pretty much everything).[/size] These bonus stats do not help you carry more. Only your base stats do. [/size] Any magic class has a wide variety of elements to use. The damage potential ( the way it is right now, even with the increased spam rate) is low to moderate.[/size]

Killing instantly with meteor is close to impossible vs someone that pays attention. Also stacking meteor storms takes a while. When you cast the first, before the first and the second one stack it takes at least 6 to 8 seconds. More than enough time for someone to switch to gtb or simply walk out of the area. Bolts however are one insane fast burst (on prof , not on wiz. Wiz's bolt spam rate sucks) that do quicker damage than meteor storm. Yes it can be reflected but profs can deal with reflect, Wizards (with their HP) can't. Either way I've tested stave crasher on both my wizard and my prof. the same gear set except for the weapon. Prof with voluspa easily reaches higher damage than a wizard does with his highness. + they're able to stay safe while spamming it if they apply wall of fog properly. As for the amplify yes it's an amazing skill, but it has cast time and only works for one skill. (also gets removed when casting something like sight or energy coat). You can compare it with double bolt. However double bolt literally doubles the damage and lasts for 90 seconds with an 80% chance to do double damage each time you bolt. With the profs spam rate that chance to do double damage is insane. Comparing that to amplify wizards need to cast it (with cast time) after every single skill they cast to get a 50% matk boost for 1 skill. Anyway to get back to the point of stave crasher hit boost. I dont think profs truly need it as they already have a weapon thats focussed on stave crasher so you'd already be using the optimal cards for stave while using stave at all times. Damage from stave on prof seems fine for me and I don't think we should add hit to the weapon or cape/ring to increase the damage even further. Keep in mind they got the skill from a different class to be able to compete with gtbers. And I think the current weapon does just that. Compete with gtb.

Bumping this up to possible get more people supporting it or disagreeing with it :)