Disable Puppetring + Owl Baron Card On Champion Class

[Shadi]

• Just to sum it all up, Champions don't have a major advantage over super novices or biochemists, but neither do they.
• Stalkers are just bad against champions. (champions have 210k+ HP and a stalker's damage with BB is 17k per BB)

• Champions don't have a major advantage over most classes, not even over the class that they are supposed to have a major advantage against.
• This is where our opinions differ once again. Stalker can easily outlast a champ, force a strip, he can stay on ranged, deal ranged damage he can do physical damage. And BB can do a ton more damage than 17k per BB if you do it right.. Champions don't have any major advantages over stalker, just their playstyle is way different. Champ is an in your face playstyle while stalker has a lot more versitility in the way it plays.

In this case, i've never fought against a good prof... It's easy to counter safety wall, just use pneuma over their head and they cant cast safety wall over a 3x3 area. They would also have to wear RSX so they wouldn't be pushed out of the blinding mist + safety wall and they would have only 120k HP. I would say that theres no way a prof could kill a prepared champion, with gtb and pneuma. If the prof used magnetic field, he would have died easily.

Safety wall is alot easier to recast than a pneuma if the prof is standing still, not to mention that even if you manage to pneuma you'll still have a 75% skill fail chance. Also the prof will have quite a lot more hp than that even without tao. More like 180k . and your asura will do about 100-110k max on energy coat, double ray frigs usakoring. Not to mention the 5% from ring, or skull aura. And your FO will also have a 75% skill fail chance + have it's damage reduced by an extra 75%. So if they wanted to they could even go double deviling and your asura would do nothing, your fo wouldn't do much either cause of the fail chance and reduced damage.

Snap + Magnum break is just used to push people away from pneuma or to take stalkers out of their cloaking.

1. That's what snap + pneuma and gtb is for, and snap can keep up with with a prof's urgent call

2. Snap + magnum break is useful for pneuma users.

3. Yeah, but catching up with anyone trying to kite you (stalker) if ez pz.

4. Raging palm strike to push him out. Pneuma over his head and spam the asura button. (if you miss asura due to blinding mist, it won't take out zen + fury)

5. It worked out pretty well for me in fild + pvp room

6. better than nothing :th_ok:

1: You won't get anything off if you're gonna be snapping and pneuma-ing. so no major advantages here. By the time pneuma is up he's next to you.

2: FO is never going to kill a supernovice. + they can just recast pneuma just as easy.

3: Champs having chasing potential sure. But again, not a big advantage over other classes. Sinx and stalker can chase fine as well, pally can do too, ninja's too, LK's too. Tons of classes can chase.

4: I already explained prof stuff above.

5: Well then you haven't fought Lk's that use their skills effectively.

6: Sure running is better than nothing in some cases but it's not gonna win you the fight so :P

1. From experience, SN's, LK's and SinX's die by champion, having high hp doesn't mean they have more survivability. Paladins do have survivability, but are vulnerable to classes that the champs can beat.

2. Don't underestimate tss lol, my champion did an average of 12k per stack.

3. Champs can ruwatch and then snap in + out or snap + magnum break, then kite some more, if that's what you're thinking.

4. It's all about speed asura or being unpredictable.

5. I was also suprised. It's also hard to determine when they use seeds because they removed the yellow indicator when seeds are used.

6. Yeah, most str based classes.

7. It's helped my friend from Japan, which is half way around the world from the server. (and she's better than me)

1:Having high hp does mean they have more survivability. They survive more than a champ does. Technically , that means they have more survivability. Sure champion has mobility, but one quick burst and a champ is dead, while SN can live through the burst.

2: I don't underestimate FO. Sure lets say you do 12k each sphere, that's 60k each fo, you'd have to do an averae of 4-5 fo's to kill a normal geared person. Sorry but if they can't cloak, backslide or ygg within 5 fo's then they're just not paying attention.

3: Classes have counters to being kited, either ranged skills, survivability skills , a lot of stuff. Yes champions can indeed snap and magnumbreak, which gives them quite a bit cd after MB. Same with hitting someone with ruwach, your sprite will be stuck for a bit as well, enough time for people to re-hide if needed.

4: Yes it is, being unpredictable is not just useful from the champ though, also for his enemy. A sudden reflect armor or anything can change a fight.

7: Things such as wtfast don't bring ping to the actual server lower than 115-120. Pingzapper might go a tad lower but not a lot. If you see pings such as 30-50 then that's the ping you have to the server from the program that you're using, like a wtfast server or pingzap server, not the actual fro game server.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Shadi

[keamykey]

+1/2 Kyaaaa~~~! :Þ

[Zombee]

-1

Quite frankly, I'm fond of Lex. I've had it used against me and I've used it against others. Hell, I've used puppetring on occasions, because sometimes it's necessary.

Removing puppetring from champions will devalue F Soldier card and destroy any investments people made into them.

Stone Curse has counter-play, and so does Lex.

TGK n Devs has never failed me vs a lex. Lex causes enough delay to allow you to switch items quickly.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Zombee

[nate1002]

+1 to do something to rise the skill cap to play monk

Lesser random number generation based game play on monk, since all players know monk already has most of the useful skills to counter enough to be the best class.

Swapping gear should not be the main consideration in pvp, they should be there to demonstrate how well you know about countering other player, but it should not be the first concern. And swapping gear should not be consider as the only fun way to pvp, otherwise pvp will be like few people playing rock paper scissors with gears but they actually only care about stone curse/ lex to autocast...

Also, rising the skill cap will reduce trash talking demonstrated by pranchew, we need a healthy competitive server, and i would love fro to be one.

Maybe:

1. not entirely disable owl baron, maybe reduced to 1-1.5% on monk

2. disable puppetring, allow pest (or reduced both to 5% , 3% respectively)

Its fun to have some chances to one shot people, but it should be available to experience players exclusively, lesser dependent on random effects. Everyone get gr, skoll and radric as default because of the server is flooded with brainless asura. We get used to it and know how to counter it doesn't mean we should let the boring build lying around.

Keep up with the constructive discussion.

-1

Quite frankly, I'm fond of Lex. I've had it used against me and I've used it against others. Hell, I've used puppetring on occasions, because sometimes it's necessary.

Removing puppetring from champions will devalue F Soldier card and destroy any investments people made into them.

Stone Curse has counter-play, and so does Lex.

TGK n Devs has never failed me vs a lex. Lex causes enough delay to allow you to switch items quickly.

Cool story bro, tell it again.

[Shadi]

+1 to do something to rise the skill cap to play monk

Lesser random number generation based game play on monk, since all players know monk already has most of the useful skills to counter enough to be the best class.

Almost every class has the skillset to be the best class. And in the case of a good champ, there is no random number generation. builds will be made surrounding the 2hit kills or one hit lex kills.

Swapping gear should not be the main consideration in pvp, they should be there to demonstrate how well you know about countering other player, but it should not be the first concern. And swapping gear should not be consider as the only fun way to pvp, otherwise pvp will be like few people playing rock paper scissors with gears but they actually only care about stone curse/ lex to autocast...

Swapping gear is not a main consideration but it is a major part of pvp. Noone forces you to change gears, and it's not needed to have a 'fun way of pvping' for casuals, but you can not expect to be one of the top pvpers if you don't know how to or don't want to gearswap. it is a major thing in RO, it is definitely NOT like playing rock paper scissors. Good players will know (based on the damage they do and other factors) what the enemy is wearing. They will be able to swap gears based on that. It's not a rock paper scissors game which is based on pure luck. it's actually mostly based on skill and knowledge about the game.

Removing these options would severely lower the skillcap in FRO. Specially from everyone fighting vs champs, as you will from that moment on only need to slap on a full damage set and easily wreck the champ without him/her being able to stop you or counter you in any way shape or form. You will force champs to get full damage from every single class while they themselves can not go full damage without being countered.

The chances of lex happening right now already are very minimal. I don't see any reason to nerf stone or lex in any way. The chances are low and both are pretty easy to deal with in the first place.

Everyone get gr, skoll and radric as default because of the server is flooded with brainless asura.

If champs really would do nothing but spam asura, they'd be extremely easy to shut down/beat.

[marcopogi05]

BECAUSE ELYSIAN GUILD IS NOOB :) NEED TO NERF THAT THING HAHAHA LIKE NPC NOOB :)

[nate1002]

Almost every class has the skillset to be the best class. And in the case of a good champ, there is no random number generation. builds will be made surrounding the 2hit kills or one hit lex kills.

You have to keep in mind that we are discussing about the card effects for specific class, not proposing any changes to any skills of a champion. And we all agreed this will affect more to the unskilled champ players.

And I will make this clearer for you:

Owl Baron card gives 3% chance cast lex = uses random number generation = more chance for champ to do 1 shot kill

Puppetring card gives 10% chance stone curse enemy when attacked= uses random number generation = more chance for champ to do 1 shot kill

And since you said they build around this, so unskilled players actually depends more on this two skills to autocast, right?

And they are random number generation, no need to dwell on this point anymore.

I would say 2 hits kill are much more acceptable.

Swapping gear is not a main consideration but it is a major part of pvp. Noone forces you to change gears, and it's not needed to have a 'fun way of pvping' for casuals, but you can not expect to be one of the top pvpers if you don't know how to or don't want to gearswap. it is a major thing in RO, it is definitely NOT like playing rock paper scissors. Good players will know (based on the damage they do and other factors) what the enemy is wearing. They will be able to swap gears based on that. It's not a rock paper scissors game which is based on pure luck. it's actually mostly based on skill and knowledge about the game.

Please read what i said again.

“Swapping gear should not be the main consideration in pvp, they should be there to demonstrate how well you know about countering other player, but it should not be the first concern. “

I think gear swapping is a fun mechanics, I play FRO too. We know it matters alot in high level pvp which its a good thing. You can stop wasting time on making your points on this matter. You can also stop explaining the gear swapping mechanics, its off topic. Its rock paper scissors as in counter effects, no one is encouraging luck base game play here. (Plus its a simple analogy, no analogy is perfect, let it go friend.)

Removing these options would severely lower the skillcap in FRO. Specially from everyone fighting vs champs, as you will from that moment on only need to slap on a full damage set and easily wreck the champ without him/her being able to stop you or counter you in any way shape or form. You will force champs to get full damage from every single class while they themselves can not go full damage without being countered.

You just make a commend to compare one specific champion build to the whole FRO server... Its not an argument. Should I delete every single class in my account except my champ and only play it to massively rise the skillcap in FRO? And should all players do that too?

I already agreed earlier that it would be fun to have chances to one shot skill, but it should be lesser chances at high level play. And that is why my initial suggestion is to half the chances, not completely disable, i do find that completely disable both cards are a bit harsh on champ.

The chances of lex happening right now already are very minimal. I don't see any reason to nerf stone or lex in any way. The chances are low and both are pretty easy to deal with in the first place.

I agree its very subjective thats why we are having a discussion for this. And we said it over and over again this should affects unskilled champ players more.

If champs really would do nothing but spam asura, they'd be extremely easy to shut down/beat.

Erm, please read all of the things i typed, why would you quoted me but then removed my important point and say something about it…

I said, " Everyone get gr, skoll and radric as default because of the server is flooded with brainless asura. We get used to it and know how to counter it doesn't mean we should let the boring build lying around. "

And its a subjective comment, you don't have to agree, but removing my main point are just pathetic.

Thanks for the reply shadi.

[Shadi]

You have to keep in mind that we are discussing about the card effects for specific class, not proposing any changes to any skills of a champion. And we all agreed this will affect more to the unskilled champ players.

And I will make this clearer for you:

Owl Baron card gives 3% chance cast lex = uses random number generation = more chance for champ to do 1 shot kill

Puppetring card gives 10% chance stone curse enemy when attacked= uses random number generation = more chance for champ to do 1 shot kill

And since you said they build around this, so unskilled players actually depends more on this two skills to autocast, right?

And they are random number generation, no need to dwell on this point anymore.

I would say 2 hits kill are much more acceptable.

Firstly Using lex/stone curse has nothing to do with being skilled or unskilled. Both skilled and unskilled champions use it. For Lex, Unskilled champions use it perhaps because they are undergeared and don't know what else to do which would make their lex asura easy to survive as well. Skilled champions use it because they build around it. I'll come back to this in a second. For Stone, more skilled champions use stone curse compared to unskilled ones, because they know when to use it and when not to. An unskilled champion might walk around with a stone curse armor at all times and would get 1-2 hitted by literally everything.

Neither owl baron or puppetring generate any random number generation. They add solid percentages to your damage through the lex skill or by removing reduction from the enemy. It's not a random amount of bonus damage so you can't call it random number generation. Proper champs will build around the 2 hit asura, not the 1 hit asura. This means that their build is completely based on speed asura, getting 2 asura's in a row should kill any enemy when geared and used right. The lex chance of 3% gives them a 3% chance to lex on ever asura they do. This means that averagely they need 33 asuras or hits before lex goes off once.

You personally just said you think 2 hit asura is acceptable. Well right now 2 hits of asura is the norm to kill someone. not one. Unless someone is lex'd and even then the lex asura won't kill someone that swaps gear effectively. And if you mean 2 hits with lexed asura that'd mean that champions need at least 3/4+ regular asuras to kill a single person. Keep in mind in order to asura a champ has to use 5/6 commands. While ygging or changing an gear item is only one command.

Please read what i said again.

“Swapping gear should not be the main consideration in pvp, they should be there to demonstrate how well you know about countering other player, but it should not be the first concern. “

I think gear swapping is a fun mechanics, I play FRO too. We know it matters alot in high level pvp which its a good thing. You can stop wasting time on making your points on this matter. You can also stop explaining the gear swapping mechanics, its off topic. Its rock paper scissors as in counter effects, no one is encouraging luck base game play here. (Plus its a simple analogy, no analogy is perfect, let it go friend.)

Exactly, swapping gear should demonstrate how you can counter another player. If you decide that you don't want to gear swap, then do not expect to survive a lex asura from a geared champ. I'm sorry but 'not wanting to swap gears' because it's not a 'main consideration/concern' in your opinion is not a reason to nerf anything. You can not simply expect to beat all classes/players by wearing 1 gear set at all times. Making use of lex/stone curse, specially stone curse has nothing to do with luck, it's simply countering someone from their gear usage. it's not 'luck' that gives the stone curse effect, it's timing of item swapping that does so. As for Lex, as explained before champions gear/build to 2 hit people. People will have to consider the possibility of getting lexed and thus should carry gears against it. All this does not lower skill-cap as you claimed. it highers the skill cap from both parties. Not only is the champ forced to change items, so is the enemy.

You just make a commend to compare one specific champion build to the whole FRO server... Its not an argument. Should I delete every single class in my account except my champ and only play it to massively rise the skillcap in FRO? And should all players do that too?

I already agreed earlier that it would be fun to have chances to one shot skill, but it should be lesser chances at high level play. And that is why my initial suggestion is to half the chances, not completely disable, i do find that completely disable both cards are a bit harsh on champ.

I don't think you quite understood my point here. I'm not talking about a specific champion build. I am talking about everything that fights against the champ can simply go full damage gear without any concern about being countered whatsoever. This removes skill from the game and allows every class to brainlessly wear full damage gear without any concern whatsoever. I have no idea why you're talking about deleting classes and such, it's completely unrelated to what I said. Lessening the chances is an option, but personally I think having to hit an average of 33 times to lex once and then making sure you don't accidentally hit again before the asura is already small enough of a chance.

Erm, please read all of the things i typed, why would you quoted me but then removed my important point and say something about it…

I said, " Everyone get gr, skoll and radric as default because of the server is flooded with brainless asura. We get used to it and know how to counter it doesn't mean we should let the boring build lying around. "

And its a subjective comment, you don't have to agree, but removing my main point are just pathetic.

I didn't leave out any important point that you've made. You claim everyone got a gr, skill and raydric as default. Yes that's obvious and it should be that way, because you want to slightly counter any encounter before it even starts, after that you change gear depending on whom and what you are fighting. You claim you know how to counter it, yet you don't want to put on the gears to counter it. You can't ask to change items because you find a certain class build 'boring'. Yes, some champ users only know how to asura. What's the problem? If all they can do is asura then you can easily make them utterly useless by changing gears. I don't see the problem here.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Shadi

[gennova]

You can't ask to change items because you find a certain class build 'boring'. Yes, some champ users only know how to asura. What's the problem? If all they can do is asura then you can easily make them utterly useless by changing gears. I don't see the problem here.

I love the way you put it into word. And yes, if it's about nerfing some class or item because community deem it as over power then sure thats goes without saying.

But I never agree to change something because its "boring" or "useless". You want every champion out there to become skilled by not rely in this build, but this is not the right way to accomplish it.

Just beat them and show them how to utillize the class properly and if someone still didn't understand then let them be. Thats as far as they can go.

[Pixel]

MINUS 1

[nate1002]

Firstly Using lex/stone curse has nothing to do with being skilled or unskilled. Both skilled and unskilled champions use it. For Lex, Unskilled champions use it perhaps because they are undergeared and don't know what else to do which would make their lex asura easy to survive as well. Skilled champions use it because they build around it. I'll come back to this in a second. For Stone, more skilled champions use stone curse compared to unskilled ones, because they know when to use it and when not to. An unskilled champion might walk around with a stone curse armor at all times and would get 1-2 hitted by literally everything.

I just said certain players depends more on it.

Neither owl baron or puppetring generate any random number generation. They add solid percentages to your damage through the lex skill or by removing reduction from the enemy. It's not a random amount of bonus damage so you can't call it random number generation. Proper champs will build around the 2 hit asura, not the 1 hit asura. This means that their build is completely based on speed asura, getting 2 asura's in a row should kill any enemy when geared and used right. The lex chance of 3% gives them a 3% chance to lex on ever asura they do. This means that averagely they need 33 asuras or hits before lex goes off once.

Random number generation is a general term that can be used to describe certain effects was coded in a way to create a chances for it to happened. It doesn’t matter if you add the word “solid” to describe the word “percentage”. Any skills isn’t 100% chance casted required a random number generation mechanics while coding it, i really hope you get that concept clear, friend.

Using average 33 auras hits can be pretty misleading, plus you just reworded the “3% chance“ using asura as a example…, its just a general saying. Experience player know it doesn’t work that way. (since there is popular way view it: You have 3 % chance to lex everytime you try to hit with asura, you can say on average you will have 1 lex every 33 hits, but you could have 3-5 lex in row and that will cause instant kill and its not that surprising to see it lex multiple times in a row, since that 3% chance is independent to each other in each hit. )

That percentage is not up to me nor you to decide what to do with it, since you will always say its low enough, i would say maybe not that low. It will just be an endless loop that goes nowhere.

You personally just said you think 2 hit asura is acceptable. Well right now 2 hits of asura is the norm to kill someone. not one. Unless someone is lex'd and even then the lex asura won't kill someone that swaps gear effectively. And if you mean 2 hits with lexed asura that'd mean that champions need at least 3/4+ regular asuras to kill a single person. Keep in mind in order to asura a champ has to use 5/6 commands. While ygging or changing an gear item is only one command.

Thanks for agreeing with what i said about 2hits kill. 5/6 commands as being offensive to kill a player isn’t a lot unless you have a slow network or a bad keyboard. In your case, ygg and gear swapping are reactive defence that we all get used to it already, using this to compare with asura commands are a bit misleading. Very cheeky shadi, nice try, but its more or less like a cheeky comparison.

after all, you just simply want to say halved the puppetring and baron will make norm asura build completely unviable. Then just make it short and clear then say that current norm builds heavily depends on puppetring and owl baron effects loud and proud, i will appreciate that.

Exactly, swapping gear should demonstrate how you can counter another player. If you decide that you don't want to gear swap, then do not expect to survive a lex asura from a geared champ. I'm sorry but 'not wanting to swap gears' because it's not a 'main consideration/concern' in your opinion is not a reason to nerf anything. You can not simply expect to beat all classes/players by wearing 1 gear set at all times. Making use of lex/stone curse, specially stone curse has nothing to do with luck, it's simply countering someone from their gear usage. it's not 'luck' that gives the stone curse effect, it's timing of item swapping that does so. As for Lex, as explained before champions gear/build to 2 hit people. People will have to consider the possibility of getting lexed and thus should carry gears against it. All this does not lower skill-cap as you claimed. it highers the skill cap from both parties. Not only is the champ forced to change items, so is the enemy.

No need for apology, my original intention is to rise the skill cap for champ, not nerfing anything. But since you “proved” (or at least trying really hard to prove) that the current asura build is heavily depends on that two specific cards, I understands why you think my intention is to nerf champ, But I really wasn’t. And most importantly its not up to my own opinion to dictate what needs to be done to champ. Again the gear swapping explanation is unnecessary, we all love gear swapping they are fun and thats probably the only reason we play fro.

I don't think you quite understood my point here. I'm not talking about a specific champion build. I am talking about everything that fights against the champ can simply go full damage gear without any concern about being countered whatsoever. This removes skill from the game and allows every class to brainlessly wear full damage gear without any concern whatsoever.

Really? but you don’t really have other points, you just implying everything one leads to another. Sure, you did not specific say the words “ puppetring owl baron asura champ” but you totally imply that champ build define the pvp skill cap of the whole fro server, then that leads you to claim champ are the only one to make the whole pvp experience fun for all other classes.

And again, you totally imply that if they lower the chances of that 2 cards, it will leads to norm champ became completely unviable, then it will lead to the collapse of FRO. It just a over the top and fear based commend. I personally won’t have any problem about whatever you wanted to say, but i want to make it clear that you did imply that.

I have no idea why you're talking about deleting classes and such, it's completely unrelated to what I said. Lessening the chances is an option, but personally I think having to hit an average of 33 times to lex once and then making sure you don't accidentally hit again before the asura is already small enough of a chance.

Well, I don’t think you understand that i am just mocking your dooms day scenario which you claimed earlier, so don’t put too much thought on it.

Again, your 33 times to lex is not a practical way to view it. its too general and a bit misleading.

I didn't leave out any important point that you've made. You claim everyone got a gr, skill and raydric as default. Yes that's obvious and it should be that way, because you want to slightly counter any encounter before it even starts, after that you change gear depending on whom and what you are fighting. You claim you know how to counter it, yet you don't want to put on the gears to counter it. You can't ask to change items because you find a certain class build 'boring'. Yes, some champ users only know how to asura. What's the problem? If all they can do is asura then you can easily make them utterly useless by changing gears. I don't see the problem here.

Friend, you did not leave it out, you removed it and commend on an lesser important sentence. And you just claim to know that i don’t like to put specific gear on. Erm thats really interesting of you to say that, so… would you like a picture of my account panel and see what my main character are wearing even when i was offlined? and what other amours/gears in their inventory for swapping? You are getting slightly too creative there and started to imagining things, and i surely did not demand to change that 2 cards. Its only a humble suggestion and and i already said the term “boring build” is my subjective comment and you don’t have to agree, I never claim that to be a major problem, so I would be much appreciated if you can refrain to make too much of a deal about it.

After all life goes on, it doesn’t really bothers me if they leave it as it is or take action on it, I am pretty sure there are many ways to make the pvp more fun and skilful, this is just another constructive discussion on the forum. See you all in the server and happy pvp.

[Shadi]

Random number generation is a general term that can be used to describe certain effects was coded in a way to create a chances for it to happened. It doesn’t matter if you add the word “solid” to describe the word “percentage”. Any skills isn’t 100% chance casted required a random number generation mechanics while coding it, i really hope you get that concept clear, friend.

Using average 33 auras hits can be pretty misleading, plus you just reworded the “3% chance“ using asura as a example…, its just a general saying. Experience player know it doesn’t work that way. (since there is popular way view it: You have 3 % chance to lex everytime you try to hit with asura, you can say on average you will have 1 lex every 33 hits, but you could have 3-5 lex in row and that will cause instant kill and its not that surprising to see it lex multiple times in a row, since that 3% chance is independent to each other in each hit. )

That percentage is not up to me nor you to decide what to do with it, since you will always say its low enough, i would say maybe not that low. It will just be an endless loop that goes nowhere.

I guess we both mean something different with the term random number generation. Because when i read that I figure it has something to do with random numbers being generated. Such as damage numbers or such. Thus, I explained why that was not the case. If you want to use it for any percentage based item, then sure o.o feel free to use it in your own way.

It's not that misleading really. Yes every hit you do is a 3% chance to lex. a seperate chance, this does not change the fact that it thus takes an average of 33 hits before lex goes off. Yes there are occasions it happens more often, and there are occasions it happens less. that's why you use an average amount o.o;

Thanks for agreeing with what i said about 2hits kill. 5/6 commands as being offensive to kill a player isn’t a lot unless you have a slow network or a bad keyboard. In your case, ygg and gear swapping are reactive defence that we all get used to it already, using this to compare with asura commands are a bit misleading. Very cheeky shadi, nice try, but its more or less like a cheeky comparison.

after all, you just simply want to say halved the puppetring and baron will make norm asura build completely unviable. Then just make it short and clear then say that current norm builds heavily depends on puppetring and owl baron effects loud and proud, i will appreciate that.

5-6 commands before any damage comes in. You should be able to press one button in the time that someone else uses 6 to deal damage to you. There's nothing cheeky about it. it's simply the truth. Whenever you run out of things to say you just say I'm misleading, while everything in my posts is thoroughly elaborated. I'd like to request you from not using personal attacks in your post.

Nowhere did I say that nerfing these cards makes a certain build completely unviable. What it does do is give every other class the full possibility to brainlessly go full damage without any risks which is something that shouldn't be done. I also said that lowering the chances is an option so again you're making things up. I'm not saying they heavily depend on it, I'm saying if you do remove these then you're simply encouraging brainless full damage pvp vs all champs. While champions would be countered themselves if they go for full damage.

my original intention is to rise the skill cap for champ, not nerfing anything. But since you “proved” (or at least trying really hard to prove) that the current asura build is heavily depends on that two specific cards, I understands why you think my intention is to nerf champ, But I really wasn’t. And most importantly its not up to my own opinion to dictate what needs to be done to champ. Again the gear swapping explanation is unnecessary, we all love gear swapping they are fun and thats probably the only reason we play fro.

Removing this won't higher the skill cap for champ, it'll lower it instead. you'll remove gear changing options away from the champ resulting in them having less options to change to and use in battle. Thus lower the skill cap from champions + you remove any possible counter of people going full damage against the class. letting other classes go brainless full damage , thus lowering the skill cap from all classes fighting vs the champion.

Really? but you don’t really have other points, you just implying everything one leads to another. Sure, you did not specific say the words “ puppetring owl baron asura champ” but you totally imply that champ build define the pvp skill cap of the whole fro server, then that leads you to claim champ are the only one to make the whole pvp experience fun for all other classes.

And again, you totally imply that if they lower the chances of that 2 cards, it will leads to norm champ became completely unviable, then it will lead to the collapse of FRO. It just a over the top and fear based commend. I personally won’t have any problem about whatever you wanted to say, but i want to make it clear that you did imply that.

I really have no idea what you're saying here. No i'm not saying that a champ build defines the skill cap of the whole server, And no I don't say that the champ is only class to make a fun pvp experience. I never said a champion would be completely unviable, I'm just stating the obvious facts on what will happen if you remove these cards from being used by the champion class. Please if you want to argue at least read my posts and don't come up with bullocks. Also I never said FRO would collapse in any way shape or form. Please stick to the things I say and stop making things up.

Friend, you did not leave it out, you removed it and commend on an lesser important sentence. And you just claim to know that i don’t like to put specific gear on. Erm thats really interesting of you to say that, so… would you like a picture of my account panel and see what my main character are wearing even when i was offlined? and what other amours/gears in their inventory for swapping? You are getting slightly too creative there and started to imagining things, and i surely did not demand to change that 2 cards. Its only a humble suggestion and and i already said the term “boring build” is my subjective comment and you don’t have to agree, I never claim that to be a major problem, so I would be much appreciated if you can refrain to make too much of a deal about it.

I do not claim to know that you don't like to switch gear, it's the logical conclusion to your own sentence " We get used to it and know how to counter it doesn't mean we should let the boring build lying around. " This means. you know how to counter it but you don't want to be bothered by it thus want the 'boring build' to be removed. I really have no need to see a picture of your account, it's simply the conclusion anyone would make when reading that sentence of yours. I'm not making a big deal out of it, I'm simply pointing out that not wanting to deal with a boring build is not a valid reason to do balance changes.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Shadi

[Rayray]

@nate1002

What's with all the talk of "rising the skill cap" on certain classes came from? We are talking about the if we would need to nerf certain cards for a certain class, players' skill is completely unrelated to this since these cards can be used by newbies and good players.

If most champ players depend on these two cards, LET THEM BE. Let them use whatever they want to use. If you think this makes them noob and stuff, that's your problem. If you don't want to use them since you think it lowers the skill cap or anything like that, then don't. It is just that simple. Again, we are talking about banning or nerfing certain cards against a certain class, we should be making arguments on whether the said cards are OP or not, not banning certain cards or nerfing them to "raise the skill cap".

I disagree to this suggestion, and the reasons are already said by other players. Removing these 2 cards from a champ's arsenal would allow any other class to default one set of items to battle a champ.

I will let you see what would happen if we remove these. All champs would then have to beat someone by only spamming asura and TSS, instead of catching others with stone or lex.

While this looks good on paper, a champ vs champ battle would get frustratingly boring then.

If you want a preview on how this looks, find 2 Int biochems that are dueling, 2 Int Biochems with similar gears and items and you will see how it becomes a fight on who has the most seeds in storage, simply because an int Biochem is one of the classes that can be countered by a single set of items. Make two of them duel together and I can brew a cup of coffee, play with my dog and take a shower and that duel is still not ending. Now consider 2 biochems, one hybrid and one int biochem and you will see a different duel. That is how limiting the use of cards for a certain class looks.

[nate1002]

@nate1002

What's with all the talk of "rising the skill cap" on certain classes came from? We are talking about the if we would need to nerf certain cards for a certain class, players' skill is completely unrelated to this since these cards can be used by newbies and good players.

If most champ players depend on these two cards, LET THEM BE. Let them use whatever they want to use. If you think this makes them noob and stuff, that's your problem. If you don't want to use them since you think it lowers the skill cap or anything like that, then don't. It is just that simple. Again, we are talking about banning or nerfing certain cards against a certain class, we should be making arguments on whether the said cards are OP or not, not banning certain cards or nerfing them to "raise the skill cap".

I disagree to this suggestion, and the reasons are already said by other players. Removing these 2 cards from a champ's arsenal would allow any other class to default one set of items to battle a champ.

I will let you see what would happen if we remove these. All champs would then have to beat someone by only spamming asura and TSS, instead of catching others with stone or lex.

While this looks good on paper, a champ vs champ battle would get frustratingly boring then.

If you want a preview on how this looks, find 2 Int biochems that are dueling, 2 Int Biochems with similar gears and items and you will see how it becomes a fight on who has the most seeds in storage, simply because an int Biochem is one of the classes that can be countered by a single set of items. Make two of them duel together and I can brew a cup of coffee, play with my dog and take a shower and that duel is still not ending. Now consider 2 biochems, one hybrid and one int biochem and you will see a different duel. That is how limiting the use of cards for a certain class looks.

Thanks for reading the massive junk i have to type to reply shadi,

I agree with most of what you said, and again mine is just a humble suggestion, and I agree my own opinion isn't really about op or nerf(I dont think its op, my suggestion is halved the percentage, if its not viable its not viable period), and i surely did let go, no problem with that :)

Forsaken already did an exceptional job on rebalancing an old game. I really shouldn't expect too much from a game built in an old engine, my bad and i do apologise.

I have to type all the junk because the argument shadi stated aren't clear and straight enough also he missed my original point. All he have to do is to make it simple and clear which could be similar to what you did.

I guess we both mean something different with the term random number generation. Because when i read that I figure it has something to do with random numbers being generated. Such as damage numbers or such. Thus, I explained why that was not the case. If you want to use it for any percentage based item, then sure o.o feel free to use it in your own way.

It's not that misleading really. Yes every hit you do is a 3% chance to lex. a seperate chance, this does not change the fact that it thus takes an average of 33 hits before lex goes off. Yes there are occasions it happens more often, and there are occasions it happens less. that's why you use an average amount o.o;

5-6 commands before any damage comes in. You should be able to press one button in the time that someone else uses 6 to deal damage to you. There's nothing cheeky about it. it's simply the truth. Whenever you run out of things to say you just say I'm misleading, while everything in my posts is thoroughly elaborated. I'd like to request you from not using personal attacks in your post.

Nowhere did I say that nerfing these cards makes a certain build completely unviable. What it does do is give every other class the full possibility to brainlessly go full damage without any risks which is something that shouldn't be done. I also said that lowering the chances is an option so again you're making things up. I'm not saying they heavily depend on it, I'm saying if you do remove these then you're simply encouraging brainless full damage pvp vs all champs. While champions would be countered themselves if they go for full damage.

Removing this won't higher the skill cap for champ, it'll lower it instead. you'll remove gear changing options away from the champ resulting in them having less options to change to and use in battle. Thus lower the skill cap from champions + you remove any possible counter of people going full damage against the class. letting other classes go brainless full damage , thus lowering the skill cap from all classes fighting vs the champion.

I really have no idea what you're saying here. No i'm not saying that a champ build defines the skill cap of the whole server, And no I don't say that the champ is only class to make a fun pvp experience. I never said a champion would be completely unviable, I'm just stating the obvious facts on what will happen if you remove these cards from being used by the champion class. Please if you want to argue at least read my posts and don't come up with bullocks. Also I never said FRO would collapse in any way shape or form. Please stick to the things I say and stop making things up.

I do not claim to know that you don't like to switch gear, it's the logical conclusion to your own sentence " We get used to it and know how to counter it doesn't mean we should let the boring build lying around. " This means. you know how to counter it but you don't want to be bothered by it thus want the 'boring build' to be removed. I really have no need to see a picture of your account, it's simply the conclusion anyone would make when reading that sentence of yours. I'm not making a big deal out of it, I'm simply pointing out that not wanting to deal with a boring build is not a valid reason to do balance changes.

I will reply when I have time later this week. Thanks for relpying.

[nate1002]

Oh and I would appreciate if you can just make it shorter, clearer using simple example like rayray did. You recycled a lot of redundant points for the sake of arguing, I hope you will put your energy and time into good use in the future. Also typing more irrelevant issues doesn't make you more logical.

Anyways, I will get back to you Shadi.

[Shadi]

Oh and I would appreciate if you can just make it shorter, clearer using simple example like rayray did. You recycled a lot of redundant points for the sake of arguing, I hope you will put your energy and time into good use in the future. Also typing more irrelevant issues doesn't make you more logical.

Anyways, I will get back to you Shadi.

My very first posts were easy, clear and to the point. You brought in a lot of random things to try and proof a point. All I did was elaborate clearly with examples why you are wrong and why I disagree with the suggestion. If you do not have anything normal to say and are only going to trashtalk like in your last 2 posts or make up a bunch of bullshit like the 2 posts before that. Please just refrain from replying and leave the discussion to people that actually want to discus balance and not just want to bash someone because they are losing an argument. The server has done a good job balancing things out, partly because of the community discussing the suggestions as well, so don't bash people that don't agree with your suggestion, it's for the sake of balance.

If my posts are anything, anything at all, then they are simple and clear. I elaborate every single thing I say and don't make statements without anything to back it up (things that you did in your last few posts).

[nate1002]

My very first posts were easy, clear and to the point. You brought in a lot of random things to try and proof a point. All I did was elaborate clearly with examples why you are wrong and why I disagree with the suggestion. If you do not have anything normal to say and are only going to trashtalk like in your last 2 posts or make up a bunch of bullshit like the 2 posts before that. Please just refrain from replying and leave the discussion to people that actually want to discus balance and not just want to bash someone because they are losing an argument. The server has done a good job balancing things out, partly because of the community discussing the suggestions as well, so don't bash people that don't agree with your suggestion, it's for the sake of balance.

If my posts are anything, anything at all, then they are simple and clear. I elaborate every single thing I say and don't make statements without anything to back it up (things that you did in your last few posts).

Well, you continuously failed to identify what i was trying to say, then try to elaborate using millions of words and your so called "example" as "back up". And well, I really shouldn't play along with your idiocy in the first place, my bad. And If you are trying to win a discussion in one post on a small forum, sure, you can have the win. I don't give a damn about winning in a discussion like this, lmfao.

You don't even understand what I am trying to say in the first place and you accused another person on the internet trying to trash talk, bash your argument or not giving solid back up... Well played bro, well played.

I will stop here because I don't see people here are talking about a simple way to separate the higher level pvp meta and the RNG luck kill. The next better step is to wait and see how fro develop in the future. Not because of you "elaborated" on my point, you failed miserably in trying to adjust the problem I saw, and I forgive you.

I don't want to know what kind of problems you are going through now, but anyways, bless you my friend.

[Shadi]

Well, you continuously failed to identify what i was trying to say, then try to elaborate using millions of words and your so called "example" as "back up". And well, I really shouldn't play along with your idiocy in the first place, my bad. And If you are trying to win a discussion in one post on a small forum, sure, you can have the win. I don't give a damn about winning in a discussion like this, lmfao.

Exactly the type of response I told you not to bother posting.

"Your idiocy"

simply because someone disagrees with you and has proven your statements wrong. Don't respond if you can't do it without making personal attacks. Also it's not about winning an discussion it's about having one and showing reasoning why something should or should not be done.

You don't even understand what I am trying to say in the first place and you accused another person on the internet trying to trash talk, bash your argument or not giving solid back up... Well played bro, well played.

Just because someone disagrees doesn't mean that person didn't understand what you're trying to say. It's not really accusing of trashtalking when you proof is right there, you simply did it. here's the quotes :

massive junk i have to type to reply shadi,

I have to type all the junk because the argument shadi stated aren't clear and straight enough also he missed my original point

None missed your point btw, I simply countered your point. that's something else.

I hope you will put your energy and time into good use in the future. Also typing more irrelevant issues doesn't make you more logical.

More trashtalking..

I really shouldn't play along with your idiocy in the first place

and here's an example of you making things up based on nothing:

Really? but you don’t really have other points, you just implying everything one leads to another. Sure, you did not specific say the words “ puppetring owl baron asura champ” but you totally imply that champ build define the pvp skill cap of the whole fro server, then that leads you to claim champ are the only one to make the whole pvp experience fun for all other classes. And again, you totally imply that if they lower the chances of that 2 cards, it will leads to norm champ became completely unviable, then it will lead to the collapse of FRO. It just a over the top and fear based commend. I personally won’t have any problem about whatever you wanted to say, but i want to make it clear that you did imply that.

Really, it's not accusing you of trashtalking, all of it is right there. If you can't leave snotty useless comments out of your posts, then don't bother posting at all.

I will stop here because I don't see people here are talking about a simple way to separate the higher level pvp meta and the RNG luck kill. The next better step is to wait and see how fro develop in the future. Not because of you "elaborated" on my point, you failed miserably in trying to adjust the problem I saw, and I forgive you.

I already have shown in this topic what the difference is between the two. As you call it redundant of me explaining it to you multiple times. I won't bother doing it agian :). You saw a problem, I explained why it's not a problem at all for a decent pvper.

I don't want to know what kind of problems you are going through now

More trashtalking, what a surprise.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Shadi

[Danny]

-1 for both the idea of nerfing puppetring card and owl baron card on Champion classes.

I don't think they are that op even with Puppetring or even with Own Baron (unless they get 2x buff the pallies). You just need the proper gear to protect yourself or the proper cards to be able to counter them.

[Aerynth]

-1 for both the idea of nerfing puppetring card and owl baron card on Champion classes.

I don't think they are that op even with Puppetring or even with Own Baron (unless they get 2x buff the pallies). You just need the proper gear to protect yourself or the proper cards to be able to counter them.

Noted.

[Danny]

Noted.

LOL Shane<3