Disable Puppetring + Owl Baron Card On Champion Class

[arch]

I believe that the existence of an instant death is over powered and should not be in any game, Stone Curse and Lex Aeterna allows most champs to 1 shot any player without a fighting chance. This has not been a problem before since there is an informal rule that champs shouldn't use these cards, which has been enforced by most pros.

This change won't affect any game play, just removes the reliance for these cards. I just think that these cards, stacked with Root, Pneuma, and Snap, just make the champion class not only invincible, but also the ultimate killer.

Edited November 27, 2014 by arch

[Rayray]

I don't really think it's necessary to ban those cards for the champ class. I for one, never had problems facing a champ that uses puppetring, even as a melee biochemist, as fsoldier easily saves you and makes one armor card of theirs null. Owl Baron, i have very few experience in fighting champs that uses this, but when they do, I barely see it hit off, unless I let myself be hit at melee range multiple times(which I do not usually do unless I want to dispell).

[Smuggles]

I'd have to agree with this. Unlike some people alot of players dont have 2k+ Tokens to waste/spend on a f.soldier card. I for one dont want to be saving up and not having any other items because of one card.
It's stupid and needs changing.

[arch]

I don't really think it's necessary to ban those cards for the champ class. I for one, never had problems facing a champ that uses puppetring, even as a melee biochemist, as fsoldier easily saves you and makes one armor card of theirs null. Owl Baron, i have very few experience in fighting champs that uses this, but when they do, I barely see it hit off, unless I let myself be hit at melee range multiple times(which I do not usually do unless I want to dispell).

Well since i have a fsold for myself, i usually come prepared after the 1st death to stone curse, but i do encounter lex aeterna when im in 1v1 asura duels or vs a lord knight.

I just think that champions already have all the skills necessary to be the best class, yet they get the most use out of these cards.

Edited November 27, 2014 by arch

[Rayray]

I'd have to agree with this. Unlike some people alot of players dont have 2k+ Tokens to waste/spend on a f.soldier card. I for one dont want to be saving up and not having any other items because of one card.

It's stupid and needs changing.

That's not a good reason to ban puppetring against the champ class. It's a strategy to use stone as it is one of the few status effects that work on a server with people having over 100 vit(the other was freeze but we got fset to protect against that). If we ban this from the champ class, it will become a trend to ban it from other classes that can use it just as well as champs but to a lesser extent.

Well since i have a fsold for myself, i usually come prepared after the 1st death to stone curse, but i do encounter lex aeterna when im in 1v1 asura duels or vs a lord knight.

I just think that champions already have all the skills necessary to be the best class, yet they get the most use out of these cards.

Well whenever I am fighting a champ, i just default it. Why wait to die on the first one when half the people default puppetring too?

Actually, almost all classes have all the necessary skills to be the best class, not just champs. Comparing other classes to champs, I can't even say that it is the best class as I still hand that to LK, Clown/Gypsy and Prof. LK can utilize owl baron better imo, clown is already OP in the right hands and prof takes the cake on being able to be a burst damage class and a defensive/support on the same build.

I did fight someone not long ago that uses owl baron on champ, it did hit off a fair few times but it did not matter much.

[sartorius19]

i could agree on lex aterna but not on puppetring.
+ Most new champs im seeing are always doing double asura for fro's sake =.=

Edited November 27, 2014 by sartorius19

[arch]

That's not a good reason to ban puppetring against the champ class. It's a strategy to use stone as it is one of the few status effects that work on a server with people having over 100 vit(the other was freeze but we got fset to protect against that). If we ban this from the champ class, it will become a trend to ban it from other classes that can use it just as well as champs but to a lesser extent.

Stone curse has more than one use other than an instakill for champs, professors use to to increase damage for their firebolts, other classes use it to punish snipers for using ship captain hat, so it is a very useful skill and that it shouldn't lead to "banning" it for other classes. You just implied that i wanted it banned from champ use.

The seeker card enables the use of stone curse and it is slotted to the shield. I think this would be a good trade, if champs want to stone curse, leading to that 1 shot asura kill, because it gives a risk and return.

Actually, almost all classes have all the necessary skills to be the best class, not just champs. Comparing other classes to champs, I can't even say that it is the best class as I still hand that to LK, Clown/Gypsy and Prof. LK can utilize owl baron better imo, clown is already OP in the right hands and prof takes the cake on being able to be a burst damage class and a defensive/support on the same build.

From my experience as a champ, those classes can be beaten in a 1v1 duel :th_e4: But other than that, i completely agree classes should be able to counter others, which is why i think this change should be implemented... And the only class, in my opinion, that can counter a champion is another champion.

i could agree on lex aterna but not on puppetring.

champs get 2x anwyays LOL.

Yeah, at least those champions need assistance from other classes.

[ThePerfectHit]

Champion is master race whether this gets passed or not.

[Roi]

-1 to this ... Not that difficult to counter Puppetring & Owl Baron on a champ.

If you really hate puppetring / Owl Baron on a champ, not that hard to just go make one yourself.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Roi

[Specter]

+1 for the owl baron dissable.

@alec . Champion is definitely the master race, I remember a certain... Unexperienced player (leader of a certain "forgotten" guild) saying his champion wasn't a decent pvp class when he couldn't kill my LK.

@ray . Quoting what Demi said, champion can own those classes you mentioned, specially LK and prof, clown might be a bit more difficult.

@roi . What demi is seeking with this post is balance between classes, not everyone using the same job and gears cause its cheap, easy to use and op. (I mean the lex asura)

Edit: Forgot to mention, -1 for puppetring because of what was stated above, BUT I agree that its a pain to waste 2k on fsoldier, but if thats the problem then fsoldier drop rate should be raised so its price drops.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Specter

[pranchew]

-1

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Obviously u can't kill a champ and ask this thing for personal gain?

Bro!!! the cards have been used for years now! Then only now u suggest that thing? hahaha

BTW, u know how a Ship hat works on other classes right? hahahah HURTS. so Disable it too??? hhahaha. Learn to play..........remember the Anti SHip hat = STONE

[forsakenlelouch]

-1 , puppetring and owl baron is not op for champs

[marcopogi05]

CRY CRY :) HEHEHEHEHE NERF ALL AHAHAHAHAHA

[Pixel]

So UNFAIR TO ALL </3

[Rayray]

@ray . Quoting what Demi said, champion can own those classes you mentioned, specially LK and prof, clown might be a bit more difficult.

It goes both ways actually. A good LK can easily own any class as well, given that he actually uses his OP spear skill(vital strike).

[arch]

-1

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Obviously u can't kill a champ and ask this thing for personal gain?

Bro!!! the cards have been used for years now! Then only now u suggest that thing? hahaha

BTW, u know how a Ship hat works on other classes right? hahahah HURTS. so Disable it too??? hhahaha. Learn to play..........remember the Anti SHip hat = STONE

As I previously stated, "This has not been a problem before since there is an informal rule that champs shouldn't use these cards, which has been enforced by most pros," though i do not have any proof for this, many people would vouch for me.

I know that ship cap't hat works for every class, but the sniper class gets the most use out of it, i just wanted to let everyone relate to it.

Why would the ship captain hat get disabled for sniper? Did you know that Champions have pneuma and that other classes can use puppetrings?

I was just looking for the best personal interest for everyone who is disgusted for champs that do this.

CRY CRY :) HEHEHEHEHE NERF ALL AHAHAHAHAHA

This nerf won't even affect gameplay, as an ex-champ player, using these cards guaranteed a quick and easy kill.

+1 for the owl baron dissable.

@alec . Champion is definitely the master race, I remember a certain... Unexperienced player (leader of a certain "forgotten" guild) saying his champion wasn't a decent pvp class when he couldn't kill my LK.

@ray . Quoting what Demi said, champion can own those classes you mentioned, specially LK and prof, clown might be a bit more difficult.

@roi . What demi is seeking with this post is balance between classes, not everyone using the same job and gears cause its cheap, easy to use and op. (I mean the lex asura)

Edit: Forgot to mention, -1 for puppetring because of what was stated above, BUT I agree that its a pain to waste 2k on fsoldier, but if thats the problem then fsoldier drop rate should be raised so its price drops.

yeah, at least stone curse has a counter :th_ok:

[ThePerfectHit]

@alec . Champion is definitely the master race, I remember a certain... Unexperienced player (leader of a certain "forgotten" guild) saying his champion wasn't a decent pvp class when he couldn't kill my LK.

That guys champion must have been under level 200, that's the only way I see how you could lose to LK 1v1 after parry nerf.

[Roi]

I'm fine to whatever the outcome of this will be, but yeah like alec said, whatever if this pulls through or not, champ still will always be master race .... if you know how to use it.

[Specter]

It goes both ways actually. A good LK can easily own any class as well, given that he actually uses his OP spear skill(vital strike).

You have a point, a spear lk can kill a champ, but its pretty much a fight to see who uses the most seeds xD

[Specter]

-1

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Obviously u can't kill a champ and ask this thing for personal gain?

Bro!!! the cards have been used for years now! Then only now u suggest that thing? hahaha

BTW, u know how a Ship hat works on other classes right? hahahah HURTS. so Disable it too??? hhahaha. Learn to play..........remember the Anti SHip hat = STONE

Im replying to you because i just woke up and i dont like reading things like this when i wake up, what if i make a DS sniper? I dont need 3 kiels, so i can use fsoldier on ship captain, or a BB Lk, i dont need kiels either. And since you like using caps i'll be clear, AN ACCESORY CARD LIKE OWL BARON HAS NO COUNTERPLAY, AND IT ENABLES PEOPLE TO 1 HIT. So now, does ship captain enable that? No. Does ship captain have counterplay? Yes in most cases.

And if you say the cards have been used for years, then you should also know what we mean since you are a really experienced player, am i right?

[Shadi]

I highly disagree with this suggestion. Everything has it's counters, including lex aetherna and stone curse. Why should those only be disabled for one class? Just because asura can one hit someone that's lexed or stoned?

Any good pvper will be immune to stone curse. And if you insist on wearing gear to boost your damage even higher and give up on that immunity then that's your choice, but don't use it as an excuse to indirectly nerf a class. Over time other classes have received major buffs (through valk weapons and rings) while all champ buffs remained very low and limited. I don't feel like champs need any nerfs at all, they're certainly possible to deal with and are (imo) one of the best balanced classes on the server.

AN ACCESORY CARD LIKE OWL BARON HAS NO COUNTERPLAY, AND IT ENABLES PEOPLE TO 1 HIT

Of course there is counterplay. It's called gearswapping and it's very essential in a pvp server such as this one. Double OL armor? Alice shield on top maybe? or the other way around, changing to double deviant, switching boots to double ferus/GEC/AF. All ya need to do is survive the one hit he does. Or stay on range ? or use sinx card and force him to uncloak you with ruwach = lex gone. There's a lot of things you can do to counter it/ fight against it.

[Rayray]

^ I miss your posts lol

And yeah, actually using my sinx card cloak is one of the counters I use against lex. And lex only seems OP imo when you are 1v1 against a champ.

[arch]

I highly disagree with this suggestion. Everything has it's counters, including lex aetherna and stone curse. Why should those only be disabled for one class? Just because asura can one hit someone that's lexed or stoned?

Any good pvper will be immune to stone curse. And if you insist on wearing gear to boost your damage even higher and give up on that immunity then that's your choice, but don't use it as an excuse to indirectly nerf a class. Over time other classes have received major buffs (through valk weapons and rings) while all champ buffs remained very low and limited. I don't feel like champs need any nerfs at all, they're certainly possible to deal with and are (imo) one of the best balanced classes on the server.

Of course there is counterplay. It's called gearswapping and it's very essential in a pvp server such as this one. Double OL armor? Alice shield on top maybe? or the other way around, changing to double deviant, switching boots to double ferus/GEC/AF. All ya need to do is survive the one hit he does. Or stay on range ? or use sinx card and force him to uncloak you with ruwach = lex gone. There's a lot of things you can do to counter it/ fight against it.

I agree that everything has its counters, for example Super Novices with Priest Capes can be countered by a simple GTB card. However, everyone, including myself, wants to see this disabled.

I just want to point out that if this change was implemented, it would not affect the gameplay for champions, just as Roi and ThePerfectHit claim, Champion will still be the master class whether this gets passed or not. They have both ranged and melee potential, unlike the other classes, who solely depend on either magic, ranged, or melee, so in a way, they're already better than other classes.

And you're saying that, if we took away stone curse and lex aeterna, we would be nerfing that class? I don't agree. Those skills aren't even theirs to begin with. If you've ever played champion, you can realize that they don't even need them.

[Specter]

Of course there is counterplay. It's called gearswapping and it's very essential in a pvp server such as this one. Double OL armor? Alice shield on top maybe? or the other way around, changing to double deviant, switching boots to double ferus/GEC/AF. All ya need to do is survive the one hit he does. Or stay on range ? or use sinx card and force him to uncloak you with ruwach = lex gone. There's a lot of things you can do to counter it/ fight against it.

I never thought about the sinx card, thanks for the info, I guess you got a point there. Double OL + alice = both dead , that's not really a fair counterplay. Double devis would leave you vulnerable to a 1 hit endowed TSS and like I said before, the ruwach one is good, but a champ can always get a horong and that'd screw you up anyways.

[Shadi]

I agree that everything has its counters, for example Super Novices with Priest Capes can be countered by a simple GTB card. However, everyone, including myself, wants to see this disabled.

I just want to point out that if this change was implemented, it would not affect the gameplay for champions, just as Roi and ThePerfectHit claim, Champion will still be the master class whether this gets passed or not. They have both ranged and melee potential, unlike the other classes, who solely depend on either magic, ranged, or melee, so in a way, they're already better than other classes.

And you're saying that, if we took away stone curse and lex aeterna, we would be nerfing that class? I don't agree. Those skills aren't even theirs to begin with. If you've ever played champion, you can realize that they don't even need them.

A good supernovice would be able to counter gtb card. The cape thing is different than this suggestion though, the capes are giving the Supernovice class buffs that were meant for other classes. For champions, this is not the case. Everyone can use stonecurse, everyone can use lex. Just not everyone can uses the capes from other classes. That's the only reason why the capes should not be wearable by supernovices. The effects were made for specific classes, not for the SN one.

I just want to point out that if this change was implemented, it would not affect the gameplay for champions, just as Roi and ThePerfectHit claim, Champion will still be the master class whether this gets passed or not. They have both ranged and melee potential, unlike the other classes, who solely depend on either magic, ranged, or melee, so in a way, they're already better than other classes.

This is, erm horsecrap.. if I may say it politely. Any change with gear swapping or card setups effects gameplay, it effects builds and it effects the classes in general. A good champ right now (that is willing to use lex) will alter their build so he kills everything in 2 asuras, but won't make it strong enough so that 1 OL or some simple reflect will kill him in one none lex hit. You on purposely weaken your regular asura to be able to kill people in 2 and be safe for low reflect gear. Knowing that as soon as you double asura or lex you will kill either way.

As for champ's being the 'master race' because they have ranged and close combat. Here's some other classes that have multiple ways to fight if used well:

1: Creator: Creators can use both AD/Magic build or better yet, an Hybrid build between mamonite and magic+AD. (Range + short + magic)

2: A SN has Magic damage and if you're decent at it you'll have a hybrid build again. Magic + melee to counter gtb users. (Magic + short)

3: LK has Bowling bash, vital strike etc and a skill that's really good but highly underused Spear boomerang + spiral pierce. (Melee and range)

4: Stalkers can go bow style with for example bowling bash copied (Range ds+ bb melee)

5: Paladins have holy cross and shield chain in a str based build (Melee + ranged)

6: Profs have bolts + stave for gtb which does physical damage so (magic + pshysical)

The list goes on. Almost every class has melee and ranged abilities that can be used to high potential on this server.

And you're saying that, if we took away stone curse and lex aeterna, we would be nerfing that class? I don't agree. Those skills aren't even theirs to begin with. If you've ever played champion, you can realize that they don't even need them

There's a difference between needing them and utilizing them. If you remove these you allow people to just go full damage gear vs any champ because there's no way for them to counter it. Changing gear at the right time in the right situation requires knowledge of the game/items and requires awareness. It can give you the edge in a fight and it's not something that should be nerfed by limiting champ's options.

It would be an indirect nerf to many classes if you'd remove the usage of these cards. removing it for only the champ would give other classes the advantage of using both stone curse and lex while they cant. That means that champ indeed gets nerfed compared to the other classes, because battle options get taken away from them. It's the same as the change to the thanatos card. It was only changed for champion into a way weaker effect. This removed a battle option for champions and thus is considered a nerf to the class. (Don't get me wrong the thanatos effect should be different for champs, but it's almost useless right now for champs).

I never thought about the sinx card, thanks for the info, I guess you got a point there. Double OL + alice = both dead , that's not really a fair counterplay. Double devis would leave you vulnerable to a 1 hit endowed TSS and like I said before, the ruwach one is good, but a champ can always get a horong and that'd screw you up anyways.

It's not about what's 'fair' counterplay and what's not. The options are there and they should be. Yes double devi's would leave you vulnerable, this is why your changing gear and the timing of it is essential. If using lex on a champion is considered unfair, then we'll have to move on to other 'unfair' stuff as well. We'd have to disable people from getting provoke from others, we'll have to disable gospell from giving double damage, we'll have to disable tons of stuff. Yes a champ could use sight, but how many champs on this server do you think have a horong card carded in their loki? Not a lot, I can tell you that much. Cloaking is just one of the many ways to counter it, it shouldn't be too hard figuring them out.