Changes To Improve Pvp Quality

[ThePerfectHit]

how those people can kill a ninja if they dont have consistency? :D you guys just want to kill it easily. try to use ninja and see if its really easy to survive. it takes only one wrong move and ninja can get killed easily plus even if u use flip tatami and you walked out to it creator can easily kill you

:)

What? Consistency has nothing to do with killing a certain class, it's called being versatile. And it's not hard to tatami throw kunai against a creator.

[Rayray]

How am I wrong? Any good ninja wouldn't give a creator the chance.

Well, I was mentioned by her so I gotta say something lol. We are both hybrid creators. Any typical int type creator will indeed have a bit of a hard time killing a ninja spamming flip tatami(although not impossible since I can kill most ninjas even on int type, all it takes is a few mistakes from them). But, since we have mammonite in our arsenal, the ninja cannot just happily spam flip tatami. It is not hard for a creator to corner a ninja as well, as urgent escape enables us to chase effectively. It mostly takes me three to five mammonites to kill a ninja once cornered. The fact that ninjas HAS to default GTB against me makes it much more easy.

[Zombee]

No this means that you're not in a hybrid build. A class being versatile means that the class is viable in multiple builds, that work differently. Such as a melee build for priests and a holy light build for priests. Savey? :)

As stated before in this topic I play basically every class, so I know how to deal with every class as well. I hardly ever play my gypsy but If you think that is the reason why I want the class to be balanced then feel free to think so. It's not like I main multiple different classes before my gypsy or anything. :)I've just shown ThePerfectHit, how to fight a ninja on for example, champion. If you need some advice on it (since you play champion yourself mostly) I'd be happy to show you or tell you :).

You're confusing the classes ability to be versatile, with building for versatility. I see what you're saying, but you didn't see what I was saying.

If you build for one or the other on a priest, that's your fault. Angeling doesn't render Priests entirely useless is what I was saying. There's ways around that.

Unlike Tarot, where it dispels, roots, cuts damage in half, and whatever the fuck else it does and it bypasses gtb. Either fix one of those to not bypass gtb, or increase delay, OR force the skill to be only level 1 & force a skill reset on bards/gypsies. That way the success rate is lower.

That's all that is asked, it won't render them useless by any means. It'll just fix something that's to be considered broken. The 40% success rate ( which feels like 90% ) wasn't designed for fROs delay.

This server has built all sorts of items around certain skills & statuses ( freeze & stone curse ), yet we have no means of bypassing Tarots spammable effects.

What? Consistency has nothing to do with killing a certain class, it's called being versatile. And it's not hard to tatami throw kunai against a creator.

Thinking he meant consistently putting pressure on the ninja or something.

Well, I was mentioned by her so I gotta say something lol. We are both hybrid creators. Any typical int type creator will indeed have a bit of a hard time killing a ninja spamming flip tatami(although not impossible since I can kill most ninjas even on int type, all it takes is a few mistakes from them). But, since we have mammonite in our arsenal, the ninja cannot just happily spam flip tatami. It is not hard for a creator to corner a ninja as well, as urgent escape enables us to chase effectively. It mostly takes me three to five mammonites to kill a ninja once cornered. The fact that ninjas HAS to default GTB against me makes it much more easy.

If you engage in melee, he can spam cicada and tatami in unison pretty much with the lack of delay & still bomb you with kunais.

If he's hybrid he can lock you in place at a distance via ice spear not letting you get near him, if you gtb you're taking 60k kunais to the face. Pneuma, he's got tatami or fw scroll to counter it.

Any ninja with a half a brain won't let you corner him and if you're too busy chasing him, you're leaving yourself wide open to take a shitload of damage. Even if you can get a mammonite on him, there's other things her can do to prevent it.

This is all obviously situational, but my point here is that any good ninja can shut you down. Or at the very least give you an incredibly good run for your money and waste a good 20 minutes of your time.

[Rayray]

If you engage in melee, he can spam cicada and tatami in unison pretty much with the lack of delay & still bomb you with kunais.

If he's hybrid he can lock you in place at a distance via ice spear not letting you get near him, if you gtb you're taking 60k kunais to the face. Pneuma, he's got tatami or fw scroll to counter it.

Any ninja with a half a brain won't let you corner him and if you're too busy chasing him, you're leaving yourself wide open to take a shitload of damage. Even if you can get a mammonite on him, there's other things her can do to prevent it.

This is all obviously situational, but my point here is that any good ninja can shut you down. Or at the very least give you an incredibly good run for your money and waste a good 20 minutes of your time.

I like to see a ninja that will go close with tatami just to push me off pneuma( and rsx card is there to prevent this as well). And spamming cicada while cornered will not save you from a bio spamming mammonite. He will not be able to get a kunai in, cuz the moment he does, he will die from mammonite. This happened literally every time I fight a ninja in pvp room. They have no HP to speak of, and using GTB just makes their defenses weaker.

It is indeed situational. However, with players on at least equal playing skill and gear, I do not think it will take me 20 minutes to just kill a ninja. All it takes for me is for that one mistake from the ninja and he dies, either from the acid bomb or mammonite. If it takes you that long, and you are using biochemist, you are doing something horribly wrong.

[Zombee]

I don't play 2 button classes, so no I don't play bio.

And the mistake part goes both ways.

With or without skolls kids are doing 30k kunais.

[Rayray]

I don't play 2 button classes, so no I don't play bio.

And the mistake part goes both ways.

With or without skolls kids are doing 30k kunais.

Players who never played bio are the only ones who can say that it is a 2 button class. Of all the classes I used(prof, stalker, sinx, bio) on pvp, bio probably is the 2nd class where I have a full bm setup and still needs to double click stuff in inventory(the first is prof). You don't play bio, you have no basis in saying it is a 2 button class.

You already claimed not playing bio, so where do you base your assumptions regarding the class then? If you do not have experience with it, you shouldn't have used it for an example explaining why ninjas need delay on their defensive skills, you should have used a different class that ninjas render useless(sniper is one).

30k each hit of kunai(which hits 3x) or 30k damage overall? Kinda confused here.

[Zombee]

Anyways, idc whatever happens. Not going to debate ninjas or anything I'm too tired for this shit and I could really care less what happens with ninjas.

[coffee break]

Disagree for High Priest!

[Maiimaii]

w3w so lazy to explain this things most of it is already explained so

+1 on this!

[ThePerfectHit]

w3w so lazy to explain this things most of it is already explained so

+1 on this!

1t dun matt3r ma11cha3l, l00k at d3 r00l3s d3y cann0t s0urc3 3d1t qq

[ThePerfectHit]

Honestly hoped these changes would go through, especially the tarot ones, it's honestly ridiculous how something can be abused so hard. Wish the higher GM's would actually play their own server so they can see what needs to be changed and so they can see how things are so easily abused.

[Igopewpew]

You're confusing the classes ability to be versatile, with building for versatility. I see what you're saying, but you didn't see what I was saying.

If you build for one or the other on a priest, that's your fault. Angeling doesn't render Priests entirely useless is what I was saying. There's ways around that.

Unlike Tarot, where it dispels, roots, cuts damage in half, and whatever the fuck else it does and it bypasses gtb. Either fix one of those to not bypass gtb, or increase delay, OR force the skill to be only level 1 & force a skill reset on bards/gypsies. That way the success rate is lower.

That's all that is asked, it won't render them useless by any means. It'll just fix something that's to be considered broken. The 40% success rate ( which feels like 90% ) wasn't designed for fROs delay.

This server has built all sorts of items around certain skills & statuses ( freeze & stone curse ), yet we have no means of bypassing Tarots spammable effects.

That is what you call a hybrid build. Which is what I mentioned.

If you build for one or the other on a priest, that's your fault. Angeling doesn't render Priests entirely useless is what I was saying. There's ways around that.

Honestly anyone that thinks a priest is a viable option for solo pvp right now has not tried playing priest on here. Priests are the easiest class to completely shut down out of all classes out there at this moment in time.

Unlike Tarot, where it dispels, roots, cuts damage in half, and whatever the fuck else it does and it bypasses gtb. Either fix one of those to not bypass gtb, or increase delay, OR force the skill to be only level 1 & force a skill reset on bards/gypsies. That way the success rate is lower.

The only reason why you're complaining is because you can't get rid of the 'stuck' effect tarot gives because you cant warp away anymore. All other effects were there from the very start and were not complained about. Now that you can't warp anymore and the effect works as intended tarot suddenly is a massive problem? I simply see no reason whatsoever to nerf tarot. Specially not if AV doesn't get it's spamrate boosted, since right now (talking out of personal experience) nobody that pays attention will die by AV , even on gtb. And that's the one and only reason why clowns/gypsies use tarot so much.

That's all that is asked, it won't render them useless by any means. It'll just fix something that's to be considered broken. The 40% success rate ( which feels like 90% ) wasn't designed for fROs delay.

None of the skills we use here were designed for fro's delay. Everything can be spammed faster than normally. Hell on low rates the tarot card's damage were even able to 1 hit the squisher classes with the damage cards. Those effects are all useless on here and other tarit card effects have more effects on here. You might find it a fix to something 'broken' I find it a nerf to something that's completely fine. And if it goes through without a boost to the AV spam or damage it'll break the class.

Honestly hoped these changes would go through, especially the tarot ones, it's honestly ridiculous how something can be abused so hard. Wish the higher GM's would actually play their own server so they can see what needs to be changed and so they can see how things are so easily abused.

Not everyone that plays this server agrees with your changes. So them playing the server wouldn't ensure them agreeing with you.

[gennova]

As for tarot here my sugestion:

Increase the spam rate of AV from 3 to 4.

Decrease the success rate of tarot.

[ThePerfectHit]

As for tarot here my sugestion:

Increase the spam rate of AV from 3 to 4.

Decrease the success rate of tarot.

AV spam is dependent on the player so I don't understand your "increase the spam rate" suggestion, some are able to spam 3 others up to 5. As for decreasing the success rate, I think that's a good idea but it depends on how much for it to actually make a difference.

[Forum~]

I'm going to re-post this in support of nerfing Tarot. It's largely a copypasta from the other big thread but the argument I make is relevant here.

tl;dr: In short, with 20% relevant casts at 1 tarot/second, it is expected that you will cast a relevant tarot once every 5 seconds. Among those relevant casts (8/14 cards), 3 out of the relevant 8 cause debuffs to MATK/ATK meaning on order of magnitude, nearly every 10 seconds some sort of debuff will be recasted on you, with the debuff lasting 30 seconds (perpetual debuff state). This is quite unfair once you also tack on dispel tarot, coma tarot, and getting rooted.

super tl;dr: I can probably kill you with casting Tarot alone.

It's a 40% chance so it fails more than it actually succeeds. It's all statistics and nothing influences the success rate. Also there's a ton of cards that have effects that don't do anything on a high rate environment like ours. So about 1 out of 2-3 cards is useless as well. So feel free to counter argue but those are the facts.

Tarot is nearly casted as fast as you can spam it. It doesn't matter that it fails more than it succeeds. The fact of the matter is that even when we consider the successes and failures combined, it's still too fast. I'm sure everyone knows how fast Tarot is spammed but I'm posting a video anyway since it's a good reference for this thread.

And no, it's not a ton that are useless on our high-rate environment. In fact, majority of them are very relevant. I will break them down here so others and yourself can take a look at them.

The Fool: Reduces SP to 0. Irrelevant. (Edit)

The Magician: Halves MATK for 30 s. Relevant.

The High Priestess: Complete dispel. RELEVANT.

The Chariot: 1000 DMG and breaks random equipment. Relevant.

Strength: Halves ATK for 30 s. Relevant.

The Lovers: Warps target and heals 2000. Irrelevant.

Wheel of Fortune: Casts two cards. Relevant.

The Hanged Man: Frozen, petrified, stopped. Relevant.

The Devil: 6666 DMG, halves MATK and ATK for 30 s, casts curse. Relevant.

Death: Cursed, coma, poisoned. RELEVANT.

The Tower: 4444 DMG. Irrelevant.

The Star: Stunned for 5 s. Irrelevant.

The Sun: Drops ATK, MATK, DEF, Hit, Flee by 20% for 30 s. Relevant.

Temperance: Chaos 30 s. Irrelevant. (Edit)

I'm counting 9/14 cards which is far more than what you're seeing. Don't forget that Death followed by any of the cards that do any sort of damage is a game ender. The relevancy is to my opinion but you can try to argue its irrelevancy if you wish.

Warning: Some back-of-the-envelope math. Discretion is advised.

Changed/added some to the above and added the one you missed. Combining everything you have about 8 things that in most cases are useless on our server out of the 16 possible things to happen. So you have a 40% succesrate with a 50% usefulnes. So that's about 20% of all the spam is actually doing something. I find that decent enough and don't see a reason to make it any worse.

I did forget Temperance (made edit above). You countered that The Fool, The Chariot, The Hanged Man are irrelevant. In hindsight, I agree with your view on The Fool. However, to me, The Chariot and The Hanged Man are still valid cards. The Chariot because not everyone gets FCP all the time (many use RSX and helmet is still breakable). The Hanged Man because with Fsoldier being more expensive than ever, not everyone has access to it. I've stone cursed many players on for_fild01 as of recently on my reduct Professor and I can attest that immunity to stone curse is rarer than one might think. Also, The Chariot has this ability to make you rooted to your cell and unable to move which is debilitating.

So between our opinions, for me, there are 9/14 and to you, 8/14 (in relevancy), which is more or less the same thing. And now with 40% success chance by nature of the skill, nearly ~20% of tarot casts will be useful, as you have previously stated. However, 20% relevant casts at speeds of ~1 tarot/second (assuming my video is a representative sample of tarot casts) is much too fast.

Debuffs last a full 30 seconds in which during that time, one can cast on average of another 30 tarot cards. More likely than not, you'll have re-casted the debuff (since there are 3/14 cards that debuff ATK/MATK) meaning the timer will have resetted for another 30 seconds. I reckon you can perpetually keep a player under debuff status until one of you gets killed.

Now let's not forget how ridiculous tarot is even when the player is forced to use GTB. Dispel goes right through. You can still get rooted to your cell. Debuffs still halve your attack.

Well if you want to call AV a burst skill then it's a very slow and weak one at it. Because the damage is not applied in one big burst but in 3 following hits that also aren't applied very fast and the damage is rather low as well.

It's not slow or weak if you're forced to wear GTB. I haven't tested clown/gypsy myself recently but I think their damage swells between 10-12k right? So, at averages of 3 AV in a spam, that's (3 AVs * 9 hits * 10-12k damage) = 270-324k damage. That's basically equal or greater than the full HP of nearly every class in the game, with exceptions to LK and Paladin. And that's just with 3 AVs. People claim to do 4 as well which is utterly ridiculous. Now consider this damage and also tarot's ability to still work (most of the cards) DESPITE wearing GTB. Are you seeing why many people are calling foul on this skill?

1t dun matt3r ma11cha3l, l00k at d3 r00l3s d3y cann0t s0urc3 3d1t qq

In the other thread, Genesis said that they are able to set server-sided delays. From this, I'm making an inference here, but doesn't that mean that tarot spam speed can also be reduced? Edited July 20, 2014 by Forum~

[Zombee]

That is what you call a hybrid build. Which is what I mentioned.

Honestly anyone that thinks a priest is a viable option for solo pvp right now has not tried playing priest on here. Priests are the easiest class to completely shut down out of all classes out there at this moment in time.

The only reason why you're complaining is because you can't get rid of the 'stuck' effect tarot gives because you cant warp away anymore. All other effects were there from the very start and were not complained about. Now that you can't warp anymore and the effect works as intended tarot suddenly is a massive problem? I simply see no reason whatsoever to nerf tarot. Specially not if AV doesn't get it's spamrate boosted, since right now (talking out of personal experience) nobody that pays attention will die by AV , even on gtb. And that's the one and only reason why clowns/gypsies use tarot so much.None of the skills we use here were designed for fro's delay. Everything can be spammed faster than normally. Hell on low rates the tarot card's damage were even able to 1 hit the squisher classes with the damage cards. Those effects are all useless on here and other tarit card effects have more effects on here. You might find it a fix to something 'broken' I find it a nerf to something that's completely fine. And if it goes through without a boost to the AV spam or damage it'll break the class.Not everyone that plays this server agrees with your changes. So them playing the server wouldn't ensure them agreeing with you.

A month later..

Also, what does warping have to do with anything? I never warped in field, so I don't see how that has any relevance to me. And warping to remove the debuff in the middle of duels or pvp is incredibly in-efficient, allowing them to re-ygg via storage. And that's definitely not true, if you're fishing 12kx8x3 that's gonna kill nearly anyone who isn't sitting 200+ Vit. Not to mention you have macho glasses & aloes which can net you another 8-16k total damage.

None of the skills were intended for this delay, sure. But we've built our items around that, so that isn't an excuse.

The fact that gtb is only effective vs 1 of the 14(?) cards, is what makes it broken. You're able to dish twice the amount of damage to me as you once were, and I can't do anything because you can still dispel, root, reduce my damage.

The armor break and tower card should be the only ones that actually penetrate gtb, in my opinion however.

[ThePerfectHit]

A month later..

Also, what does warping have to do with anything? I never warped in field, so I don't see how that has any relevance to me. And warping to remove the debuff in the middle of duels or pvp is incredibly in-efficient, allowing them to re-ygg via storage. And that's definitely not true, if you're fishing 12kx8x3 that's gonna kill nearly anyone who isn't sitting 200+ Vit. Not to mention you have macho glasses & aloes which can net you another 8-16k total damage.

None of the skills were intended for this delay, sure. But we've built our items around that, so that isn't an excuse.

The fact that gtb is only effective vs 1 of the 14(?) cards, is what makes it broken. You're able to dish twice the amount of damage to me as you once were, and I can't do anything because you can still dispel, root, reduce my damage.

The armor break and tower card should be the only ones that actually penetrate gtb, in my opinion however.

AV is 9 hits not 8.

[Forum~]

AV is 9 hits not 8.

A correction yes, but it just makes his point even more valid, lol.

[ThePerfectHit]

A correction yes, but it just makes his point even more valid, lol.

I want clown changed just as much as he does, if not more.

[Carlo~]

Boost HW please :D

Current High Wizard Blessed Ring Effect:
Walking speed +15%
Reduce Damage taken from Demihumans by 5%
Reduce Vit def by 10%
HP +10%
SP +10%
Matk +20%
Int +35
Increase Damage with Cold Bolt by 15%

Instead of cold bolt damage, why not make it 15% meteor storm damage since Wizard skills are more on AOE rather than single target. Cold Bolt is good enough but it's hard to kill with it since wizards have no double bolt like professors.

Also this class needs hp boost, maybe increase tao gunka card effect on wizard? hehe :D

[Igopewpew]

Also, what does warping have to do with anything? I never warped in field, so I don't see how that has any relevance to me. And warping to remove the debuff in the middle of duels or pvp is incredibly in-efficient, allowing them to re-ygg via storage. And that's definitely not true, if you're fishing 12kx8x3 that's gonna kill nearly anyone who isn't sitting 200+ Vit. Not to mention you have macho glasses & aloes which can net you another 8-16k total damage.

Before warping was disabled nobody had any problems with tarot card. Now it's suddenly a major problem. Or well more like people hate fighting against it and thus it is a problem. Also your damage calculations as explained before are completely off. 12k is also not the damage people reach I normally get hit for about 8k while on gtb and the 3x av is slow. it takes multiple seconds for the damage to apply and you have plenty of time to ygg in between, compared to something like sonic blow in which you have to ygg in a split second.

None of the skills were intended for this delay, sure. But we've built our items around that, so that isn't an excuse.

The fact that gtb is only effective vs 1 of the 14(?) cards, is what makes it broken. You're able to dish twice the amount of damage to me as you once were, and I can't do anything because you can still dispel, root, reduce my damage.

We've build our items around the tarot spam as well. Changes such as most gears being unbreakable are already done to stop tarot from being OP. As stated in the other topic the only nerf I could agree with is to reduce the duration from the debuffs. But not to give tarot a delay (and thus make it impossible to use a skill after coma card etc) or block more effects with gtb, Those two things would break the class. I'd recommend changing the debuffs from tarot from 30 seconds to 10-15 seconds and then be done with it. It's a severe nerf but still leaves the skill in it's purpose.

The armor break and tower card should be the only ones that actually penetrate gtb, in my opinion however.

That'd make the skill utterly useless rofl.

[Forum~]

Before warping was disabled nobody had any problems with tarot card. Now it's suddenly a major problem. Or well more like people hate fighting against it and thus it is a problem.

Tarot has been a problem for years. Don't try to redirect the blame to when warping was disabled because that isn't the reason why all of a sudden people seem to find it a major problem. It's always been a major problem. People hate fighting against it because it's broken.

Also your damage calculations as explained before are completely off. 12k is also not the damage people reach I normally get hit for about 8k while on gtb and the 3x av is slow. it takes multiple seconds for the damage to apply and you have plenty of time to ygg in between, compared to something like sonic blow in which you have to ygg in a split second.

I see clowns/gypsies easily hit 10-12k AVs when their target is forced to GTB. Are you not fully geared? Also, at what speeds are you spamming AV? AFAIK, when AV is spammed, it is spammed in fractions of a second, much like SB and not like you're describing it taking "multiple seconds for the damage to apply". Multiple seconds would be like speed asura-ing.

We've build our items around the tarot spam as well. Changes such as most gears being unbreakable are already done to stop tarot from being OP. As stated in the other topic the only nerf I could agree with is to reduce the duration from the debuffs. But not to give tarot a delay (and thus make it impossible to use a skill after coma card etc) or block more effects with gtb, Those two things would break the class. I'd recommend changing the debuffs from tarot from 30 seconds to 10-15 seconds and then be done with it. It's a severe nerf but still leaves the skill in it's purpose.

That'd make the skill utterly useless rofl.

Hats can still break. Hat being broken is pretty much gg. Tarot needs to have a reduction in it's spam rate. It's like ~1 tarot/second right now. Needs to be like ~1 tarot/2 seconds. Edited July 21, 2014 by Forum~

[Arif]

Wow clown so op!