Pvp Ladder

[Forum~]

This suggestion is something I had been planning to make for some time now but only after recent events have I realized how dire the situation was. In particular, this suggestion will try to make it harder for feeders to cheat and make it easier for players to catch them doing so since it is a fact that GMs are not on 24/7 to monitor the rooms.

Remove all the PvP ladder rooms but the original square arena room. Why? I will elaborate below and also address possible rebuttals.

Reason 1: It is hard to watch for feeding when there are 4 separate PvP rooms. If there were just one room, at least players would easily be able to monitor it for feeding by themselves. Let's get it straight that GMs aren't on 24/7, and we all know that feeders become active during those off times.

Reason 2: Every other room except the original one are bugged. You can storage, resurrect and kaizel (*more on this), warp in and out, create parties, and probably a host of other bugged things that I don't know about that shouldn't be allowed.

Reason 3: The town-based PvP maps are so large that it's almost impossible to find another player inside it and properly PvP. This isn't hide-and-seek here when I'm trying to PvP ladder. Just the normal square arena will suffice. Also, I have found that feeders exploit the fact that the map is large and hide in a corner to avoid detection while they feed themselves (I have SS evidence of this to the skeptics).

Now about this resurrect issue. Feeding is a huge problem with this. A particular player has pretty much been exploiting resurrect-killing on these bugged maps. This player has been blatantly feeding for the past two weeks (AFAIK) probably around the hours when no GMs were on. This was the last straw that pushed me to make this suggestion.

Counterargument 1: You say that there needs to be a variety of PvP ladder maps? I don't think so when more than 99% of the time, all the maps are empty. If we graphed activity levels in the PvP room during the duration of one week, the action would be concentrated in the beginning and ends of the week. Having a variety of maps only serve a superficial purpose, aka, sometimes less is more and in this case, it is. Any person who has laddered before would agree that having one map is far superior to multiple maps for reasons 1 and 3, as well as the fact that having just one map keeps the concentration of PvP focused there and not diffused among the numbers we have now. If you really want to get PvP room hyped, get rid of for_fild01. Only then would having multiple PvP ladder maps work.

Counterargument 2: Don't remove the non-donation equip PvP ladder map you say? Please tell me who has legitimately used those maps and has won PvP ladder before. None. I thought so. These maps only have novelty value and by observation, is the truth. This change wouldn't be newbie-friendly? You and I both know that in all honesty, they wouldn't stand a chance anyway. PvP ladder shouldn't cater to newbies. I would consider it an "end-game" activity. No one actually uses these rooms for PvP laddering but just the existence of two extra maps makes it that much harder to watch for feeding.

Realize that this suggestion is to make it HARDER for feeders to be successful. If you have a reason against this suggestion, it better be a really good one.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Forum~

[Maiimaii]

+1 for this pro suggestion , Should get back the Non Donation eqp for pvp and King's pvp room and remove all the other maps , this other maps are way too big for pvp and there's a lot of feeders in this 3 New pvp rooms since you can warp , resu , kaizel ,@storage. uses fdun pass to warp out and ye hard 2 monitor 4 pvp rooms at once. o wait not only +1 for this suggestion if it possible +99 plz HEH!
-GJ p3t3!

Edited May 10, 2014 by Maiimaii

[Forum~]

o wait not only +1 for this suggestion if it possible +99 plz HEH!

-GJ p3t3!

How you know it me and not dr00??? ahuehuaheuae

[Maiimaii]

Wait WAT?! 0 y3 P3t3r n dr00 wawaw

[ThePerfectHit]

+1 , Made valid points

Edited May 10, 2014 by ThePerfectHit

[Sumblime]

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[hazbird123]

+1 Some good ideas but no gm needs to b online to look up ladder records and determine someone is cheating in most cases, gm's just need more help going over the records. The last few weeks r fucked only because the gms didnt have time to go over them at all. I dont think new rooms need to b changed or removed besides removing storage and res maybe, pvp is kind of getting active and that shouldnt b messed wit. We do need more gms tho..

[Forum~]

+1 Some good ideas but no gm needs to b online to look up ladder records and determine someone is cheating in most cases, gm's just need more help going over the records. The last few weeks r fucked only because the gms didnt have time to go over them at all.

Is there actually a ladder kill log of some kind or are you just assuming this? If such a thing exists, it would be so easy to track down feeders. *GM opens kill log. GM finds a long column of kills by the same person on the same feed. Obvious feeding detected, banned.* I'm assuming such a convenient thing doesn't exist unless an administrative GM can clarify this point. It would be great if it did though. People who ladder would have such a peace of mind knowing such a log was kept and cheating was nigh impossible. This would probably be the best deterrence against feeders.

I dont think new rooms need to b changed or removed

The town maps NEED to be removed. They're just too large. Just earlier today, I saw someone killing in the Payon map and I rushed in there with my character. I couldn't even find them searching the top half of the map and by the time I was moving towards the bottom half, I checked with an alt on the player count inside the Payon map and I was the only one in there. Again, when I'm in PvP room, it shouldn't become a game of hide-and-seek. That's not PvPing. All you need is a square arena-like map.

besides removing storage and res maybe

Maybe? Of course they need to be removed. Resurrecting to get easy kills is outright exploitable. This is more like a bug than a feature. The original PvP room didn't allow this. These bugged rooms shouldn't either.

pvp is kind of getting active and that shouldnt b messed wit. We do need more gms tho..

By active, you mean empty for majority of the week? Thing needs to change. It isn't as active as it once used to be and it pretty much died once partying was disabled. I can't disagree with having more GMs on the staff. Edited May 11, 2014 by Forum~

[Rayray]

Some people like the town pvp maps. Although I agree that allowing storage and res in there, along with parties are a bit too much, we have for_fild01 for that.

Maybe we do not need to remove the town pvp maps, just do not make the kills in there count for the pvp ladder. That way, people who want to ladder will use the big square one we have, while those who do not want to use fild01 or just want to test something will use the town maps.

[Forum~]

Some people like the town pvp maps. Although I agree that allowing storage and res in there, along with parties are a bit too much, we have for_fild01 for that.

Right.

Maybe we do not need to remove the town pvp maps, just do not make the kills in there count for the pvp ladder. That way, people who want to ladder will use the big square one we have, while those who do not want to use fild01 or just want to test something will use the town maps.

This is a fair compromise that I can get on board with.

Essentially, all the laddering magic should happen on one map, the square arena one, whether or not the other rooms exist.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Forum~

[markadik21]

Agree on this... I hate other feeders. Cheacting and trolling at bc....

[Zombee]

Square PvP rooms are dull and if the entire server can see it when someone is feeding.

Payon is a shitty PvP map to begin with. Izlude & Prontera are fine imo.

[Forum~]

Agree on this... I hate other feeders. Cheacting and trolling at bc....

I'm glad that while we don't always agree on things on the forums, that we can see eye-to-eye on something like this.

Square PvP rooms are dull

Admittedly, square PvP rooms are dull but they are far better suited for PvP's sake. Anyway, function ought to prioritize over form in an activity such as this.

the entire server can see it when someone is feeding.

No, the entire server can't see when someone is feeding. You only see when they move up ranks. Example: I'm at rank 2 and I need 5 more kills to get to rank 1. I proceed to feed 5 kills and then it broadcasts to the server that I have now claimed rank 1. From this point on, since there are no more ranks to surpass from rank 1, I can continue to feed without ever having to worry about the broadcasts.

Broadcasting every single kill globally would clutter the chat.

Payon is a shitty PvP map to begin with. Izlude & Prontera are fine imo.

No. They're all shitty. Large town maps are more of a game of hide-and-seek than PvP. You won't really know unless you PvPed under such circumstances.

It's pretty much the worst feeling when you're attempting to PvP ladder and you can't find the person who's feeding because of how large the map is, and all you keep seeing are kill broadcasts of the feeder resurrect-killing their own client (I have SS evidence of this).

Edited May 11, 2014 by Forum~

[Veracity]

Feeding actually isn't an issue. We keep a log of every single kill that takes place in every single PvP room 24/7. We look through these logs and look for anything suspicious, and it makes it easy to identify anyone who was cheating. However, the real issue with PvP Ladder has been its management, which Genesis will now be taking over himself. The reason it may not have been handled as thoroughly as possible recently was because we were backlogged by 2 months. We're going to make sure that doesn't happen again and we'll stay on top of it from week to week. :) We're going to set a specific day we will announce them every week, I'm guessing it will be on Mondays.

[ThePerfectHit]

Feeding actually isn't an issue. We keep a log of every single kill that takes place in every single PvP room 24/7. We look through these logs and look for anything suspicious, and it makes it easy to identify anyone who was cheating. However, the real issue with PvP Ladder has been its management, which Genesis will now be taking over himself. The reason it may not have been handled as thoroughly as possible recently was because we were backlogged by 2 months. We're going to make sure that doesn't happen again and we'll stay on top of it from week to week. :) We're going to set a specific day we will announce them every week, I'm guessing it will be on Mondays.

And as for the rooms? Theres one pvp room in particular thats a bit ridiculous in terms of how many places there are to run and hide and a person could just relog when losing a fight...

Edited May 11, 2014 by ThePerfectHit

[Forum~]

Feeding actually isn't an issue. We keep a log of every single kill that takes place in every single PvP room 24/7. We look through these logs and look for anything suspicious, and it makes it easy to identify anyone who was cheating. However, the real issue with PvP Ladder has been its management, which Genesis will now be taking over himself. The reason it may not have been handled as thoroughly as possible recently was because we were backlogged by 2 months. We're going to make sure that doesn't happen again and we'll stay on top of it from week to week. :) We're going to set a specific day we will announce them every week, I'm guessing it will be on Mondays.

This clarifies a lot of things. Thanks for posting and keep up the good work with ladder management.

However, there's still the issue of large maps being non-optimal for PvP as well as the bugs that exist in the town-based PvP maps (storaging, warping in and out, resurrecting, kaizeling, etc) that need to be addressed so that will be the focus of this suggestion thread then.

[Veracity]

Okay, based on this suggestion and talking to some players in game, here's what I'm thinking of doing now...

1. Re-enabling parties in all PvP rooms
2. Make it so you can warp directly into all PvP rooms
3. Disabling resurrection in all PvP rooms
4. Either disabling storage in all of them, or enabling it in all of them - which would people prefer?
5. Making it so only the small, square PvP room counts for Ladder and renaming it to the PvP Ladder Room
6. Keeping all of the town PvP maps, but making it so kills in there don't count for ladder

I'd really appreciate players' feedback on these ideas, as well as if people have any other suggestions on what we can do to make ladder/the PvP rooms more active.

[Maiimaii]

Okay, based on this suggestion and talking to some players in game, here's what I'm thinking of doing now...

• Re-enabling parties in all PvP rooms
• Make it so you can warp directly into all PvP rooms
• Disabling resurrection in all PvP rooms
• Either disabling storage in all of them, or enabling it in all of them - which would people prefer?
• Making it so only the small, square PvP room counts for Ladder and renaming it to the PvP Ladder Room
• Keeping all of the town PvP maps, but making it so kills in there don't count for ladder

I'd really appreciate players' feedback on these ideas, as well as if people have any other suggestions on what we can do to make ladder/the PvP rooms more active.

I prefer not to enable the storage at PvP Rooms.

[Forum~]

Okay, based on this suggestion and talking to some players in game, here's what I'm thinking of doing now...

[1]Re-enabling parties in all PvP rooms

[2]Make it so you can warp directly into all PvP rooms

[3]Disabling resurrection in all PvP rooms

[4]Either disabling storage in all of them, or enabling it in all of them - which would people prefer?

[5]Making it so only the small, square PvP room counts for Ladder and renaming it to the PvP Ladder Room

[6]Keeping all of the town PvP maps, but making it so kills in there don't count for ladder

I'd really appreciate players' feedback on these ideas, as well as if people have any other suggestions on what we can do to make ladder/the PvP rooms more active.

Changed your bullet points to numbers so other players and I can address them more easily.

1. History tells me that the PvP room was more lively when parties were allowed. As we all can agree, PvP room right now is dead and left for feeders to exploit. It's a no-brainer that partying should be re-enabled for the sake of activity.

2. You should be able to warp into it via @warp and the PvP NPC. However, you shouldn't be allowed to warp out of them or else people will just warp out when they're about to lose.

3. Resurrect (Kaizel, Yggdrasil leaf, Resurrect skill) are highly exploitable for feeding. This should of course be disabled without a doubt.

4. Disable storaging. Keep the GvG/LMS rules and maintain this environment. If you need to restock, relog. Also, some people need access to a controlled environment to hold proper duels. PvP Ladder that has storaging disabled is exactly what they need.

5. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT. Disable all kills from other rooms from counting for the PvP ladder tally. Only kills that were made in the square arena room should count. The town maps are too large and again, feeder exploitable.

6. Same point as 5.

Another point, every single PvP room should have a player count displayed on the corner of your screen. Maii has told me that iRO (pre-renewal) does indeed have this feature so I'm sure it's implementable.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Forum~

[Zombee]

The Town maps are the best ones. v_v;

[ThePerfectHit]

Okay, based on this suggestion and talking to some players in game, here's what I'm thinking of doing now...

1. Re-enabling parties in all PvP rooms
2. Make it so you can warp directly into all PvP rooms
3. Disabling resurrection in all PvP rooms
4. Either disabling storage in all of them, or enabling it in all of them - which would people prefer?
5. Making it so only the small, square PvP room counts for Ladder and renaming it to the PvP Ladder Room
6. Keeping all of the town PvP maps, but making it so kills in there don't count for ladder

I'd really appreciate players' feedback on these ideas, as well as if people have any other suggestions on what we can do to make ladder/the PvP rooms more active.

I disagree with numbers 1 and 4. Rest I'm fine with.

[Forum~]

Bump.

[ThePerfectHit]

Bump pls

[Forum~]

Bump. PvP ladder is a feeding hot zone. No way for legitimate players to succeed. Please remedy.

[jameslamela]

agree... this server only needs 1 pvp room map due to players population..