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Maiimaii

Gs Tracking Is Op Af

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Oh, and im ok too to make a Gs weapon for tracking that requires both hands ^^

Edited by Budaz

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Changes have been made to Gunslinger Guardian Ring:

  1. Dark Lord and Dark Illusion cards are now disabled when GS Guardian Ring is worn
  2. Removed the Cast Time reduction effect
  3. Damage is back from the original effect
  4. changes to item description will be updated for the next patch

Remember that this is phase 1 / beta for this ring will be made until we balance all rings on how we expect it to work. You will notice that GS wearing guardian ring will have cast time for tracking now.

I really think that this is the closest we can get to balance the ring. Thank you all for the inputs.

Edited by Ares

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still OP. How long will this end lol

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still OP. How long will this end lol

You should define OP. I watched today's Battle Royale and I watched carefully the GS' Tracking. It now has casting time and it deals expected amount of damage. It deals very high damage today's BR because the GS got x2 dmg from Battle Chant twice.

Now I suggest you research on how to counter the Tracking build we developed. And yes, there is a counter to that.

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Balancing a class is never easy on a high rate server.

Here are my thoughts.

Tracking is a bit OP WHEN USED IN A GROUP SITUATION. That is, if a GS is fighting with at least a pally, chances are he can finish that tracking(provided he used phen card or blood butterfly card) while staying alive.

Tracking is a bit useless against certain classes in a 1v1 situation. That cast time is gonna bite you in the ass, but only if the enemy can withstand its damage when the GS hits the skill. If you can still one hit them(classes that has lower hp), then tracking is still OP in that regard.

Suggestions on my end. Not all of this should be implemented, at minimum, at least one of them should work.

1. lower the damage of that skill. 650% seems too much as it can one hit most classes provided he has the right cards. Not even Asura can one hit people even with the right cards, SB had to hit more than 3x for it to insta kill someone, Double bolt has to proc to one hit with prof, armor has to be broken for acid demonstration to kill someone instantly. With Tracking however, the only thing you need to do is cast it and wait and you will kill someone(especially if that someone is fighting someone else, he cant outseed that for sure).

2. What Ami said can be plausible: make a weapon for tracking, make it a two handed rifle, REMOVE THE EFFECT ALTOGETHER on the ring and put it in the weapon. That way, GS gains the same weakness of SB sinx, which is reducts. High damage, low survival. That happened on SinX, why not GS?

3. Remove the effect of phen card and bloody butterfly card as well. If I understand it, Ares wants Tracking skill to be like a positional type of skill, meaning the player's position should be good enough before you use it. Hence, removing this two cards would make it work as intended. If a GS can just stand there, cast tracking everytime he can while being kept alive by his Paladin, then we get OP. If tracking can be interrupted by just being hit, then it can never be OP.

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Balancing a class is never easy on a high rate server.

Here are my thoughts.

Tracking is a bit OP WHEN USED IN A GROUP SITUATION. That is, if a GS is fighting with at least a pally, chances are he can finish that tracking(provided he used phen card or blood butterfly card) while staying alive.

Tracking is a bit useless against certain classes in a 1v1 situation. That cast time is gonna bite you in the ass, but only if the enemy can withstand its damage when the GS hits the skill. If you can still one hit them(classes that has lower hp), then tracking is still OP in that regard.

Suggestions on my end. Not all of this should be implemented, at minimum, at least one of them should work.

1. lower the damage of that skill. 650% seems too much as it can one hit most classes provided he has the right cards. Not even Asura can one hit people even with the right cards, SB had to hit more than 3x for it to insta kill someone, Double bolt has to proc to one hit with prof, armor has to be broken for acid demonstration to kill someone instantly. With Tracking however, the only thing you need to do is cast it and wait and you will kill someone(especially if that someone is fighting someone else, he cant outseed that for sure).

2. What Ami said can be plausible: make a weapon for tracking, make it a two handed rifle, REMOVE THE EFFECT ALTOGETHER on the ring and put it in the weapon. That way, GS gains the same weakness of SB sinx, which is reducts. High damage, low survival. That happened on SinX, why not GS?

3. Remove the effect of phen card and bloody butterfly card as well. If I understand it, Ares wants Tracking skill to be like a positional type of skill, meaning the player's position should be good enough before you use it. Hence, removing this two cards would make it work as intended. If a GS can just stand there, cast tracking everytime he can while being kept alive by his Paladin, then we get OP. If tracking can be interrupted by just being hit, then it can never be OP.

One thing I like about you is you get what I am trying to achieve here. Let me answer some of your points

  1. I still don't find it OP given the stats of a normal GS. It gets OP when you have x2 from BC but how is that different from x2 dmg Asura Strike? If we're talking in a group fight, players must know how to counter this. There are several ways I have in mind and I'm hoping people will think about it first before they say GS is OP.
  2. The weapon for Tracking will be up as soon as I've fixed this "issue". And yes, it will be a 2-hand rifle.
  3. Correct on this. There's Phen and Bloody Butterfly cards that you can use when you lose your Paladin. But this will be put on Accessory, which will lose some of your reductions. ;)

I will give it a few more weeks for this update to work (or up until the next official patch release). My suggestion to you guys is to check out other rings out out there. There is a counter for this guys... If I see you guys doing the counter for GS and I see that the GS can withstand it, then that is when I define GS Tracking OP. And besides, everyone can go GS Tracking build whenever they want to.

Don't be hasty guys. Cheers!

Edited by Ares

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One thing I like about you is you get what I am trying to achieve here. Let me answer some of your points

  1. I still don't find it OP given the stats of a normal GS. It gets OP when you have x2 from BC but how is that different from x2 dmg Asura Strike? If we're talking in a group fight, players must know how to counter this. There are several ways I have in mind and I'm hoping people will think about it first before they say GS is OP.
  2. The weapon for Tracking will be up as soon as I've fixed this "issue". And yes, it will be a 2-hand rifle.
  3. Correct on this. There's Phen and Bloody Butterfly cards that you can use when you lose your Paladin. But this will be put on Accessory, which will lose some of your reductions. ;)

I will give it a few more weeks for this update to work (or up until the next official patch release). My suggestion to you guys is to check out other rings out out there. There is a counter for this guys... If I see you guys doing the counter for GS and I see that the GS can withstand it, then that is when I define GS Tracking OP. And besides, everyone can go GS Tracking build whenever they want to.

Don't be hasty guys. Cheers!

1. There are several counters for tracking, yes. Still, look at it in the worst situation, which is gvg or woe. You cannot really outright zone in and focus on the GS now could you? We nerfed SB and several other hard hitting skills simply because it tipped the situation more to their favor in a very unfavorable way. This is also not counting on thana card and weapon switches, which is another thing. While you can wear raydrics against the champ class and be well and alive, the same cannot be said with tracking.

2. Good to hear this.

3. I don't see how losing one card makes me lose some of my reductions, especially as people RARELY use a card on GS to deal with reductions.

I am not against the GS class getting tracking, I like having skills that is not a spam until someone dies skill. GS is also one of my favorite classes, even when they nerfed desperado and the full buster shotgun is not out yet then. I like the direction of you guys experimenting(as I am hoping for Soul linker buffs and stuff).

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You should define OP. I watched today's Battle Royale and I watched carefully the GS' Tracking. It now has casting time and it deals expected amount of damage. It deals very high damage today's BR because the GS got x2 dmg from Battle Chant twice.

Now I suggest you research on how to counter the Tracking build we developed. And yes, there is a counter to that.

Okay, let me define OP.

OP as in only a 2 man team can take down an 8 man team. A Champion and Pally can't do the same things what a Gunslinger and Pally can do. One reason is that a GUNSLINGER has range. It doesn't need to keep moving to kill someone. And Champions need to get close to ASURA. Champions also have a delay when they use the skill SNAP. Gunslingers Tracking doesn't have any requirement or delays. Gunslinger's with pally can just stand beside the pally and shot everyone within sight.

Having RANGE is a very very very big advantage already. And to be direct with the CASTING TIME of Tracking, it can still reach 100% casting time redux.

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You should define OP. I watched today's Battle Royale and I watched carefully the GS' Tracking. It now has casting time and it deals expected amount of damage. It deals very high damage today's BR because the GS got x2 dmg from Battle Chant twice.

Now I suggest you research on how to counter the Tracking build we developed. And yes, there is a counter to that.

The things you dont get is not all people is swordsman class(highest hp pool), average hp player is just 220k-280k. Without defending aura from pally,it cant be reduce,even with 2nox(you deal 280-300k). Do not examined things just with "watch". I never heard gm cant play,make your pvp char and deal with it. This thread will end if the one that you created is fine. But you see,tons of ppl complaint it even ingame.

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1. There are several counters for tracking, yes. Still, look at it in the worst situation, which is gvg or woe. You cannot really outright zone in and focus on the GS now could you? We nerfed SB and several other hard hitting skills simply because it tipped the situation more to their favor in a very unfavorable way. This is also not counting on thana card and weapon switches, which is another thing. While you can wear raydrics against the champ class and be well and alive, the same cannot be said with tracking.

2. Good to hear this.

3. I don't see how losing one card makes me lose some of my reductions, especially as people RARELY use a card on GS to deal with reductions.

I am not against the GS class getting tracking, I like having skills that is not a spam until someone dies skill. GS is also one of my favorite classes, even when they nerfed desperado and the full buster shotgun is not out yet then. I like the direction of you guys experimenting(as I am hoping for Soul linker buffs and stuff).

  1. I'll take that point.
  2. Great
  3. If you know the cards on accessories, putting a phen/b.butt card on accessory is a massive change on cast time.

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The things you dont get is not all people is swordsman class(highest hp pool), average hp player is just 220k-280k. Without defending aura from pally,it cant be reduce,even with 2nox(you deal 280-300k). Do not examined things just with "watch". I never heard gm cant play,make your pvp char and deal with it. This thread will end if the one that you created is fine. But you see,tons of ppl complaint it even ingame.

When I say watch, it means I observe things carefully. But I will try to balance things to make you happy while those who have this build will feel the same.

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Okay, let me define OP.

OP as in only a 2 man team can take down an 8 man team. A Champion and Pally can't do the same things what a Gunslinger and Pally can do. One reason is that a GUNSLINGER has range. It doesn't need to keep moving to kill someone. And Champions need to get close to ASURA. Champions also have a delay when they use the skill SNAP. Gunslingers Tracking doesn't have any requirement or delays. Gunslinger's with pally can just stand beside the pally and shot everyone within sight.

Having RANGE is a very very very big advantage already. And to be direct with the CASTING TIME of Tracking, it can still reach 100% casting time redux.

You guys haven't tried to use Pneuma when there were 8 of you against a GS and a Pally?

One thing I am sad about is most players only depend on macro + internet speed + other 3rd party programs to win a fight. I only see few people who use strategy and teamwork in battle.

Edited by Ares

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There will be no end to this.

Once the issue with GS Guardian is solved, there are many other Guardians which needed a huge consideration.

Apart from GS guardian, most of the other Guardians are definitely not worth the time and effort to quest.

Definitely no idea what was the purpose of the other guardians, well most of it.

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You guys haven't tried to use Pneuma when there were 8 of you against a GS and a Pally?

One thing I am sad about is most players only depend on macro + internet speed + other 3rd party programs to win a fight. I only see few people who use strategy and teamwork in battle.

Pneuma is a temporary skill that last for 10 secs. When pneuma faded, PEW dead. No time to cast again by our Champ. And you see what i'm trying to say here, you need pneuma for it that means you need another player with a character that can cast pneuma or unless you wait for the 5% cast chance of pneuma but that won't happen because you're already dead try to wait for the pneuma to pop out, when your enemy only needs a GS and Pally. See what I'm pointing here. Please understand it sir Ares.

I love the idea of a 2 handed rifle because it would be like a sinx and it should be that way with the high damage. I hope GS Guardian users won't cry about it when Pally's can't use devo anymore on them because they can't use deaf shield. Just use Sinx card to hide from dispell.

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When I say watch, it means I observe things carefully. But I will try to balance things to make you happy while those who have this build will feel the same.

Glad to heard that, and this not just for "me" this is for all. Prolly im not the one against this.

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Okay, let me define OP.

OP as in only a 2 man team can take down an 8 man team. A Champion and Pally can't do the same things what a Gunslinger and Pally can do.

What were the other 6 doing? LOL

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You guys haven't tried to use Pneuma when there were 8 of you against a GS and a Pally?

One thing I am sad about is most players only depend on macro + internet speed + other 3rd party programs to win a fight. I only see few people who use strategy and teamwork in battle.

You got it there!

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Sorry, but the pneuma card is not the good solution against GS. it works on snipers and others because they hit fast. With tracking, it does not hit fast, but it hits hard. in a 1v1 situation, I doubt pneuma would proc if the GS only uses tracking and full buster, it might but GS already have a skill against pneuma.

The only class I know that will never have an issue against a GS is Ninja, AND a stalker that uses my old build(flip tatami copied skill). While RO seems to be a game where your class is ultimately weak against another, on a high rate it is a different story. A class should be able to be on a slightly even footing against everyone at least. maybe disadvantaged against some, but not like this. We don't want to create another issue like the LKs never ending parry before.

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***Warning: Lengthy explanation of me trying to make a point and voting for the reduction of the overall damage of Tracking because it seems like it's not going to be lowered.***

With or without cast time the damage is still way over the roof.

Let's see... Why are these skills made to be in a forced neutral state (can't be converted to any element): Asura Strike, Acid Bomb, Martyr's Reckoning, Final Strike etc.

It's because they naturally deal a great amount of damage and thank goodness for Ghostring and Raydric (let's face it, you put these on as default most of the time because those skills above are usually what you face in the battlefield) we can deal with all these with ease. But then here comes the Gunslinger which with its presence alone will make you want to switch to "counter gear" even before it shoots a bullet.

650% damage increase to a skill that already deals great damage even without ring benefits, and you can convert to another element by using another bullet property is not balanced at all.

Some examples of skills that can be converted to another element for it to deal actual damage against GR + Raydrics:

  • Cart Termination
  • Mammonite
  • Sonic Blow
  • Bowling Bash

None of these skills are comparable to Guardian Tracking in terms of current damage. It completely overshadows all of those by a great, great, margin.

Okay time for scenarios:

TEAM FIGHT: You face against a party with a Champion, a Bio, a Paladin, a Ninja, a Sniper (meh) and whatnot. Ah, you can deal with this, with your own team because it's the usual. But then comes a Guardian Gunslinger and joins the opposing team. You be like "oh shit switch to your 'counter' gear or else you surely will die from the GS". Doing so leaves you very vulnerable to the other classes trying to kill you and hoorah, you're dead from Acid Bomb or a not-even-full Asura Strike. Okay let's use Pneuma then. But you get nudged by magnum break.

"Hey, I'm a melee hitter but i need to stay in this Pneuma to keep me safe. And please cast a pneuma for me (because i don't want to bother getting or using an accessory that triggers it... or maybe i do but thats way too much of a hassle to prevent ONLY ONE CLASS from killing you with one shot) so i can walk around very slowly and very carefully until I get to my target who by the way is constantly moving away."

Yeah I was right. The presence of the current Guardian Gunslinger alone can ruin the match already without even firing that bullet yet. The only way I can see this thing becoming balanced is having the cast time and a damage that can only deal around 150 - 180 - 200k damage at maximum potential (Ship Captain, Thana, Provoke, x2, whateverthehellelseyoucanusetoincreaseitsdamage). Yes, because you need an actual team to win in a team fight, not only a Gunslinger who stands in one spot casting Tracking (and/or maybe a Paladin as a life support... so seriously, where's the strategy and teamwork here?) that currently can deal all the damage (over 300k damage) you will ever need to kill people in the average 210 - 240k HP pool.

You get hit by a 150 - 200k damage Tracking from a lone Gunslinger and you're alright, you can seed and tank that. But during a team fight, you can get hit by other attacks like asura, and acid bomb, then the 150 - 200k damage Tracking should serve as a finisher and I think that's how it should be. A finisher skill on opponents who have already lost about 1/4 of their HP from your allies' attacks.

Guardian Gunslinger players: "So that's it? We can't kill anymore (OHKO) and we now only need a team to do that?"

Give me a break... this is how we lead to the next scenario:

1 ON 1 FIGHT: Now I'll step on the Gunslinger shoes to be fair with you. So, let's fight one on one.

I cast Tracking against you and I'm using the Guardian ring with it. BLAM. That was one massive damage but you don't die. What do I do to kill you? I can't spam this Tracking skill at all because it needs to cast.

Here you go, use this another skill called FULL BUSTER.

See it as Tracking (Team Fights - because you need some people to protect you and make the first wave of damage to them while casting) and Full Buster (1vs1 Fights - because it's fast and you can manage to kill on your own).

There are 3 different kinds of rings now. And different weapons. And that means you can switch depending on the situation. And don't tell me "Not everyone has the tokens to get all those different rings and weapons". Well that is completely your choice. These Guardian rings are pricey due to the difficulty of producing them, and yet more and more people are starting to get them in a heartbeat. With the state of things I'm pretty sure every Gunslinger out there will just get the Guardian rings because of this crazy overkill potential. There's no need anymore to use other classes because in a PK server, it's all about PVP, and the best way to make mindless killing right now is going for Guardian Gunslinger.

But know this: There can never be something that wipes any class instantly in a game in just one press of a button. If there is, then you have a broken game overall.

And for heaven's sake, we can't just say "find a counter to it" all the time because there is no counter to a skill that can surely and instantly kill you, not even pneuma which requires you to stand in one spot. And not all classes have the Pneuma skill at their disposal, and there's only one card that gives you this benefit but only if it procs while youre being hit by physical attacks. What is there to proc if you're not even alive at all. Is there a headgear out there that can give you the ability to cast Pneuma? Well fill us in, but I'm pretty sure not everyone is gonna be able to have it (especially if it's from Activity Tokens...). All this struggle, just to counter ONE class... jeebus.

Lastly, yes, everyone can go GS Guardian Tracking build. And so I welcome everyone to World War Gunslinger, the RO where only "Gunslinger Lives Matter".

Rant over.

Edited by BeforeMidnight
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Nice one train. U make all of comment in one.

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***Warning: Lengthy explanation of me trying to make a point and voting for the reduction of the overall damage of Tracking because it's seems like it's not going to be lowered.***

With or without cast time the damage is still way over the roof.

Let's see... Why are these skills made to be in a forced neutral state (can't be converted to any element): Asura Strike, Acid Bomb, Martyr's Reckoning, Final Strike etc.

It's because they naturally deal a great amount of damage and thank goodness for Ghostring and Raydric (let's face it, you put these on as default most of the time because those skills above are usually what you face in the battlefield) we can deal with all these with ease. But then here comes the Gunslinger which with its presence alone will make you want to switch to "counter gear" even before it shoots a bullet.

650% damage increase to a skill that already deals great damage even without ring benefits, and you can convert to another element by using another bullet property is not balanced at all.

Some examples of skills that can be converted to another element for it to deal actual damage against GR + Raydrics:

  • Cart Termination
  • Mammonite
  • Sonic Blow
  • Bowling Bash

None of these skills are comparable to Guardian Tracking in terms of current damage. It completely overshadows all of those by a great, great, margin.

Okay time for scenarios:

TEAM FIGHT: You face against a party with a Champion, a Bio, a Paladin, a Ninja, a Sniper (meh) and whatnot. Ah, you can deal with this, with your own team because it's the usual. But then comes a Guardian Gunslinger and joins the opposing team. You be like "oh shit switch to your 'counter' gear or else you surely will die from the GS". Doing so leaves you very vulnerable to the other classes trying to kill you and hoorah, you're dead from Acid Bomb or a not-even-full Asura Strike. Okay let's use Pneuma then. But you get nudged by magnum break.

"Hey, I'm a melee hitter but i need to stay in this Pneuma to keep me safe. And please cast a pneuma for me (because i don't want to bother getting or using an accessory that triggers it... or maybe i do but thats way too much of a hassle to prevent ONLY ONE CLASS from killing you with one shot) so i can walk around very slowly and very carefully until I get to my target who by the way is constantly moving away."

Yeah I was right. The presence of the current Guardian Gunslinger alone can ruin the match already without even firing that bullet yet. The only way I can see this thing becoming balanced is having the cast time and a damage that can only deal around 150 - 180 - 200k damage at maximum potential (Ship Captain, Thana, Provoke, x2, whateverthehellelseyoucanusetoincreaseitsdamage). Yes, because you need an actual team to win in a team fight, not only a Gunslinger who stands in one spot casting Tracking (and/or maybe a Paladin as a life support... so seriously, where's the strategy and teamwork here?) that currently can deal all the damage (over 300k damage) you will ever need to kill people in the average 210 - 240k HP pool.

You get hit by a 150 - 200k damage Tracking from a lone Gunslinger and you're alright, you can seed and tank that. But during a team fight, you can get hit by other attacks like asura, and acid bomb, then the 150 - 200k damage Tracking should serve as a finisher and I think that's how it should be. A finisher skill on opponents who have already lost about 1/4 of their HP from your allies' attacks.

Guardian Gunslinger players: "So that's it? We can't kill anymore (OHKO) and we now only need a team to do that?"

Give me a break... this is how we lead to the next scenario:

1 ON 1 FIGHT: Now I'll step on the Gunslinger shoes to be fair with you. So, let's fight one on one.

I cast Tracking against you and I'm using the Guardian ring with it. BLAM. That was one massive damage but you don't die. What do I do to kill you? I can't spam this Tracking skill at all because it needs to cast.

Here you go, use this another skill called FULL BUSTER.

See it as Tracking (Team Fights - because you need some people to protect you and make the first wave of damage to them while casting) and Full Buster (1vs1 Fights - because it's fast and you can manage to kill on your own).

There are 3 different kinds of rings now. And different weapons. And that means you can switch depending on the situation. And don't tell me "Not everyone has the tokens to get all those different rings and weapons". Well that is completely your choice. These Guardian rings are pricey due to the difficulty of producing them, and yet more and more people are starting to get them in a heartbeat. With the state of things I'm pretty sure every Gunslinger out there will just get the Guardian rings because of this crazy overkill potential. There's no need anymore to use other classes because in a PK server, it's all about PVP, and the best way to make mindless killing right now is going for Guardian Gunslinger.

But know this: There can never be something that wipes any class instantly in a game in just one press of a button. If there is, then you have a broken game overall.

And for heaven's sake, we can't just say "find a counter to it" all the time because there is no counter to a skill that can surely and instantly kill you, not even pneuma which requires you to stand in one spot. And not all classes have the Pneuma skill at their disposal, and there's only one card that gives you this benefit but only if it procs while youre being hit by physical attacks. What is there to proc if you're not even alive at all. Is there a headgear out there that can give you the ability to cast Pneuma? Well fill us in, but I'm pretty sure not everyone is gonna be able to have it (especially if it's from Activity Tokens...). All this struggle, just to counter ONE class... jeebus.

Lastly, yes, everyone can go GS Guardian Tracking build. And so I welcome everyone to World War Gunslinger, the RO where only "Gunslinger Lives Matter".

Rant over.

F***ing well said Train! Excuse my language but the game is seriously broken because of Guardian GS.

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What were the other 6 doing? LOL

Watching the Pally and GS Guardian owning. LOL

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Pneuma is a temporary skill that last for 10 secs. When pneuma faded, PEW dead. No time to cast again by our Champ. And you see what i'm trying to say here, you need pneuma for it that means you need another player with a character that can cast pneuma or unless you wait for the 5% cast chance of pneuma but that won't happen because you're already dead try to wait for the pneuma to pop out, when your enemy only needs a GS and Pally. See what I'm pointing here. Please understand it sir Ares.

I love the idea of a 2 handed rifle because it would be like a sinx and it should be that way with the high damage. I hope GS Guardian users won't cry about it when Pally's can't use devo anymore on them because they can't use deaf shield. Just use Sinx card to hide from dispell.

Pneuma is one of the counters. What else? :)

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Pneuma is one of the counters. What else? :)

You can't exactly call it a counter though, as not all classes has it. Sure you can use a card, but that only procs on chance though.

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