Taekwon (New Rings And Weapon)

[Ares]

Yeah. So it's still worth playing on solo, micro party, and most especially on full party. Hopefully this update will balance everything out.

[BeforeMidnight]

All three kicks boosted by the Blessed ring (Heel Drop, Roundhouse and Counter kick) now deal about the same damage [21k x 3 for each hit of 1 Kick] (I'm only buffed by blessing and falcon eyes). This is fine for me compared to the last one which had 21k x 3 for Heel Drop and then the other 2 kicks dealt only 10k x 3. I've also only done this test on my own. No parties so I don't know how much it does when Kihop is active.

You can ask the other TK rankers though if they're fine with this now too.

And I totally disagree on Danger's idea of disabling the infinite spam of kick for combos. You mean we should only rank to get that 3x HP and SP? Tamper with the RO system again because you think infinite combos is imbalanced. TK's already have 1 specific skill that's been completely disabled/nulled/FORSAKEN/trashed in PvP maps which is Leap. And now you're suggesting to disable the one best legit and totally intended and totally unique bonus TKs can have which is also inside a skill.

This is beyond the game balancing thing already because you're gonna modify the class skill itself. TKs have had enough. Not that there's anything wrong with it but we can't even make any use of the attack bonus you get when you do the Sprint and Stop thing when you're unarmed because yeah, we now wear weapons. It's different from modifying skills through equipment such as the Rings or the Valk weapons because you have the option to wear or not to wear it. What you want is a complete shut down of the Taekwon class, and that's totally unforgivable.

[Ares]

All three kicks boosted by the Blessed ring (Heel Drop, Roundhouse and Counter kick) now deal about the same damage [21k x 3 for each hit of 1 Kick] (I'm only buffed by blessing and falcon eyes). This is fine for me compared to the last one which had 21k x 3 for Heel Drop and then the other 2 kicks dealt only 10k x 3. I've also only done this test on my own. No parties so I don't know how much it does when Kihop is active.

You can ask the other TK rankers though if they're fine with this now too.

And I totally disagree on Danger's idea of disabling the infinite spam of kick for combos. You mean we should only rank to get that 3x HP and SP? Tamper with the RO system again because you think infinite combos is imbalanced. TK's already have 1 specific skill that's been completely disabled/nulled/FORSAKEN/trashed in PvP maps which is Leap. And now you're suggesting to disable the one best legit and totally intended and totally unique bonus TKs can have which is also inside a skill.

This is beyond the game balancing thing already because you're gonna modify the class skill itself. TKs have had enough. Not that there's anything wrong with it but we can't even make any use of the attack bonus you get when you do the Sprint and Stop thing when you're unarmed because yeah, we now wear weapons. It's different from modifying skills through equipment such as the Rings or the Valk weapons because you have the option to wear or not to wear it. What you want is a complete shut down of the Taekwon class, and that's totally unforgivable.

Like what Ive said in my post, we have decided not to modify Kihop. So that's not the issue anymore. It should be balanced now and people must expect that taekwons will deal muh damage on bigger parties.

[XiaoMing90]

Vincenzo Frogeiro here, this topic probably saying me. Ares did the good job at the emergency nerf because when the guardian and taekwon weapon launch together, TK really has Huge HP and damage and no need to repeat what is the damage again. After the emergency nerf, we found out the KIHOP party skill was really OP due to high rate and low rate server problem. As Ares said, the this skill unable to remove or nerf because this is passive skill. So GM team adjust again and reduce the TK HP and damage on the both ring again. I tested on both ring, blessed are fair enough for now since it's have 3 kick and all 3 kick duel with decent damage. I found out the problem on the cursed ring because cursed ring has just a kick which is tornado kick. So i think this is kinda weird because 3 kick on blessed ring and 1 kick on cursed ring. The tornado kick damage on cursed ring is lower than the blessed by 5k-8k depending on your str, attack and buff. I had no idea why this should be lower than the blessed ring? Since we spam tornado kick must come with another 2 kick to continue the combo. Well yeah TK ranker should know every kick without the ring probably just deal 2-5k on enemy. So the ring really important to boots on the kick.

My suggestion - can you boots cursed ring tornado kick a little bit higher than the 3 kick on blessed ring? You removed 70% damage on cursed ring but 30-50% on the blessed ring with 3 Kick. Weird.

+1 on the blessed ring, -1 on the cursed ring, +0 on the guardian.

FYI, i tested the damage with Ares in game and gave my opinion to him. I also have 3 ring complete ring.

[Ares]

Vincenzo Frogeiro here, this topic probably saying me. Ares did the good job at the emergency nerf because when the guardian and taekwon weapon launch together, TK really has Huge HP and damage and no need to repeat what is the damage again. After the emergency nerf, we found out the KIHOP party skill was really OP due to high rate and low rate server problem. As Ares said, the this skill unable to remove or nerf because this is passive skill. So GM team adjust again and reduce the TK HP and damage on the both ring again. I tested on both ring, blessed are fair enough for now since it's have 3 kick and all 3 kick duel with decent damage. I found out the problem on the cursed ring because cursed ring has just a kick which is tornado kick. So i think this is kinda weird because 3 kick on blessed ring and 1 kick on cursed ring. The tornado kick damage on cursed ring is lower than the blessed by 5k-8k depending on your str, attack and buff. I had no idea why this should be lower than the blessed ring? Since we spam tornado kick must come with another 2 kick to continue the combo. Well yeah TK ranker should know every kick without the ring probably just deal 2-5k on enemy. So the ring really important to boots on the kick.

My suggestion - can you boots cursed ring tornado kick a little bit higher than the 3 kick on blessed ring? You removed 70% damage on cursed ring but 30-50% on the blessed ring with 3 Kick. Weird.

+1 on the blessed ring, -1 on the cursed ring, +0 on the guardian.

FYI, i tested the damage with Ares in game and gave my opinion to him. I also have 3 ring complete ring.

Oh the kid who plays well with TK. I'll try to answert some of your points before I lose my intetnet...

The cursed ring is specifically for AoE damage build; blessed ring for solo targets; guardian must deal the highest damage if used correctly.

Aftet several tests, the cursed ring needs to be adjusted a little lower than blessed because it dealt higher damage than before. The current update should somehow make you "less OP" but not weak. With only 5 members in a party in the test server, cursed ring works fine.

Thanks btw for approaching me yesterday. Much appreciated!

[BeforeMidnight]

Like what Ive said in my post, we have decided not to modify Kihop. So that's not the issue anymore. It should be balanced now and people must expect that taekwons will deal muh damage on bigger parties.

When did I ever mention anything about Kihop in my last post? I was talking about Danger's ridiculous idea of disabling the TaeKwon infinite spam of kicks.

[Rayray]

When did I ever mention anything about Kihop in my last post? I was talking about Danger's ridiculous idea of disabling the TaeKwon infinite spam of kicks.

I don't think that is gonna be implemented anyway. I mean, that's a serious kick in the nuts for the TK class if that gets disabled since that's the one of the only things going for them.

That's like disabling spiral pierce for LKs.

[Ares]

When did I ever mention anything about Kihop in my last post? I was talking about Danger's ridiculous idea of disabling the TaeKwon infinite spam of kicks.

I'm not saying that I'm against it. I'm just saying that what I've said in my post that we will not remove Kihop. You misunderstood what I said.

[Danger]

And I totally disagree on Danger's idea of disabling the infinite spam of kick for combos. You mean we should only rank to get that 3x HP and SP? Tamper with the RO system again because you think infinite combos is imbalanced. TK's already have 1 specific skill that's been completely disabled/nulled/FORSAKEN/trashed in PvP maps which is Leap. And now you're suggesting to disable the one best legit and totally intended and totally unique bonus TKs can have which is also inside a skill.

On a high rate server where we have 195 aspd, -90% after cast delay and some of the people that PvP uses macro / 3rd party programs... Yes I think its a bit imbalanced.

When the spam rate on GS Desperado was too high, It was balanced. When the spam speed on SinX Sonic Blow was too high, it was balanced. When people argued that due to (almost) no cast on GS Tracking Skill was OP, it was balanced...

So, why don't reduce the possibility to make infinite combos on TKs? You'll still have the possibility to make combos as that is determined by the speed you react once the stances are triggered (as when you are not on top 10)

Being able to press 4 keys in certain pattern once you trigger the first combo is advantageous if you consider (almost) no delay from kiels + Max ASPD + Great Damage from weapon / Rings (and im not taking in mind the people that uses legit / legit ways to reduce even more the aforementioned non existent delays)

Again, on a low rate server it is not a problem because TKs don't do high damage and being able to do combos is a way to balance damage against other classes.

About the Leap Nerf / trashing... Although I agree with You. That belongs to a different topic so I won't comment here about it, but feel free to start a suggestion and lets see how this can be solved :)

[Rayray]

Danger, it sounds "OP" when you term it as "infinite combos" when all it does is allow you to use the kicks without waiting for the stance to proc. I see no issue with it,seeing that every other class can spam their skill without them being restricted by a stance.

It just allows the TKs to spam skills. That's pretty much it. And it is not as much as just pressing 4 buttons, they had to keep their toes with weapon elements, seeding and switching armors.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Rayray

[BeforeMidnight]

Not gonna happen GM Danger.

This is not Dance Dance Revolution or Guitar Hero where you only press the key to the corresponding fret or whateverthehell those things are called to make combos (for rankers). It's a class intended bonus. It's not even anything close to cast time or after cast delay. It's just what it is because the game said so.

[Ami]

My request on this thread is to use the UPDATE thread more often that only ADMINs, MODs or GMs are able to use it for us to read. Even if there is just a little tweak on an item, cards, character or whatever shiznit change that happens on the server. The Update thread is literally there for it. Please consider my suggestion on this things. Look at all the chaos made by this thread.

or how about make another thread like CHANGES or something like that for us to read. God speed fRO.

[Danger]

It's a class intended bonus. It's not even anything close to cast time or after cast delay. It's just what it is because the game said so.

Yet the game was meant for TKs to play without weapon ("It's just what it is because the game said so.") and weapons were released to balance things against other classes. The game was meant for Thana Users / Bios to cause devastation with that Card / Acid Demo ("... the game (developers) said so.") and Skoll card was released to balance things. TGK card was meant to double your HP on any class ("the game said so.") but effect was modified to balance things...

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against the TK Class (I might be one of those rankers, who knows...) but seeing how that "intended bonus" is being used is what makes me feel it's a bit imbalanced (and that is just on some events and occasional PvP, as im not allowed to watch WoE / BR / GvG)

Danger, it sounds "OP" when you term it as "infinite combos" when all it does is allow you to use the kicks without waiting for the stance to proc. I see no issue with it,seeing that every other class can spam their skill without them being restricted by a stance.

It just allows the TKs to spam skills. That's pretty much it. And it is not as much as just pressing 4 buttons, they had to keep their toes with weapon elements, seeding and switching armors.

Hello Ray, I understand your point but I term that way because that is (in fact) the term used on skill description (you can check here, here and in game). About every class being able to spam skills without them being restricted by a previous skill / stance... You have reason, but take in mind some classes had balances on their delays and this "Infinite Combo (sic)" bonus's Skill should have also some kind of delay IMHO

Anyways it seems that (for now) things are balanced, so just remains as a suggestion.

[Rayray]

Yet the game was meant for TKs to play without weapon ("It's just what it is because the game said so.") and weapons were released to balance things against other classes. The game was meant for Thana Users / Bios to cause devastation with that Card / Acid Demo ("... the game (developers) said so.") and Skoll card was released to balance things. TGK card was meant to double your HP on any class ("the game said so.") but effect was modified to balance things...

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against the TK Class (I might be one of those rankers, who knows...) but seeing how that "intended bonus" is being used is what makes me feel it's a bit imbalanced (and that is just on some events and occasional PvP, as im not allowed to watch WoE / BR / GvG)

Hello Ray, I understand your point but I term that way because that is (in fact) the term used on skill description (you can check here, here and in game). About every class being able to spam skills without them being restricted by a previous skill / stance... You have reason, but take in mind some classes had balances on their delays and this "Infinite Combo (sic)" bonus's Skill should have also some kind of delay IMHO

Anyways it seems that (for now) things are balanced, so just remains as a suggestion.

Balances on their delays sure, most of those are balanced since they string together seamlessly, which gives it one heck of instant damage(like the sonic blows and arrow vulcans). The kicks will not string that way. Putting somewhat of a delay on the kicks will hinder the class. Imagine if you get like .5 second delay on spiral pierce if you spam it 3x. Or do that on bolts or any other skill. See how weird that sounds? Doing that for TK is not good for the class, when they just started to be used again.

To show how ridiculous that sounds, I'll give an example if we do it for some classes.

LK: Spiral Pierce- hits 5x. You get a .5 second delay if you spam this skill 3x.

Profs and Wizards: Firebolt- hits 10x with magic attack. Cannot be spammed continuously after 3x, you will get a .5 second delay where you do literally nothing but stand there if you do try to spam it.

[Nas]

On a high rate server where we have 195 aspd, -90% after cast delay and some of the people that PvP uses macro / 3rd party programs... Yes I think its a bit imbalanced.

When the spam rate on GS Desperado was too high, It was balanced. When the spam speed on SinX Sonic Blow was too high, it was balanced. When people argued that due to (almost) no cast on GS Tracking Skill was OP, it was balanced...

So, why don't reduce the possibility to make infinite combos on TKs? You'll still have the possibility to make combos as that is determined by the speed you react once the stances are triggered (as when you are not on top 10)

Being able to press 4 keys in certain pattern once you trigger the first combo is advantageous if you consider (almost) no delay from kiels + Max ASPD + Great Damage from weapon / Rings (and im not taking in mind the people that uses legit / legit ways to reduce even more the aforementioned non existent delays)

Again, on a low rate server it is not a problem because TKs don't do high damage and being able to do combos is a way to balance damage against other classes.

About the Leap Nerf / trashing... Although I agree with You. That belongs to a different topic so I won't comment here about it, but feel free to start a suggestion and lets see how this can be solved :)

Yes we are in high rate server. Back then all of it is balanced, most of increase on damage is 10-50%, but now. 100-500% . You can see 70-100k damage everywhere. FTW

[Bishop]

Vincenzo Frogeiro here, this topic probably saying me. Ares did the good job at the emergency nerf because when the guardian and taekwon weapon launch together, TK really has Huge HP and damage and no need to repeat what is the damage again. After the emergency nerf, we found out the KIHOP party skill was really OP due to high rate and low rate server problem. As Ares said, the this skill unable to remove or nerf because this is passive skill. So GM team adjust again and reduce the TK HP and damage on the both ring again. I tested on both ring, blessed are fair enough for now since it's have 3 kick and all 3 kick duel with decent damage. I found out the problem on the cursed ring because cursed ring has just a kick which is tornado kick. So i think this is kinda weird because 3 kick on blessed ring and 1 kick on cursed ring. The tornado kick damage on cursed ring is lower than the blessed by 5k-8k depending on your str, attack and buff. I had no idea why this should be lower than the blessed ring? Since we spam tornado kick must come with another 2 kick to continue the combo. Well yeah TK ranker should know every kick without the ring probably just deal 2-5k on enemy. So the ring really important to boots on the kick.

My suggestion - can you boots cursed ring tornado kick a little bit higher than the 3 kick on blessed ring? You removed 70% damage on cursed ring but 30-50% on the blessed ring with 3 Kick. Weird.

+1 on the blessed ring, -1 on the cursed ring, +0 on the guardian.

FYI, i tested the damage with Ares in game and gave my opinion to him. I also have 3 ring complete ring.

There's 2 reasons for cursed ring being lower.

1: The cursed ring is made for AoE damage. It should not have higher single target damage output than the ring that was made for single target damage output.

2: The cursed ring is more of a defensive ring compared to the other two, it is more intended to be a tanky presence with decent AoE damage. Hence why the HP bonus on this ring is higher than on the others.

To respond to a few other points in this topic:

As for the infinite kick thing. I personally feel like it should remain the way it is. It's what makes TKs viable, without it there would be no reason to really be a TK over a star glad. Star glads do their single way higher dps kicks at the right stance, TKs should do lower damage kicks but able to trigger and combo them faster. Star glads give up lots of bonusses to have the higher burst damage as well. The delay you mention is always an option if the spam turns out to be too strong. However in that case I would always prefer lowering damage over reducing the spam of kicks as the continuous spam is what makes a TK ranker stand out from Star glads.

Lastly I see people comparing TKs with SinX. This is a complete misinformed comparison. Taekwon rankers were implemented by Gravity as a constant moderate damage dealer and crowd controller with great tanking/survival capabilities. They were never made to outdamage a sinx. Sinx was implemented to be one of the highest burst damage classes with little survivability other than their agile movements. The way it is right now (after the change) sinx need to use 2 weapons to outdamage the TK. with that they risk getting more damage too. To me that's the way it should be. If you want full out damage you can go Sinx, if you prefer an all around and more safe option TK ranker now is a viable option.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Bishop

[Ares]

There's 2 reasons for cursed ring being lower.

1: The cursed ring is made for AoE damage. It should not have higher single target damage output than the ring that was made for single target damage output.

2: The cursed ring is more of a defensive ring compared to the other two, it is more intended to be a tanky presence with decent AoE damage. Hence why the HP bonus on this ring is higher than on the others.

To respond to a few other points in this topic:

As for the infinite kick thing. I personally feel like it should remain the way it is. It's what makes TKs viable, without it there would be no reason to really be a TK over a star glad. Star glads do their single way higher dps kicks at the right stance, TKs should do lower damage kicks but able to trigger and combo them faster. Star glads give up lots of bonusses to have the higher burst damage as well. The delay you mention is always an option if the spam turns out to be too strong. However in that case I would always prefer lowering damage over reducing the spam of kicks as the continuous spam is what makes a TK ranker stand out from Star glads.

Lastly I see people comparing TKs with SinX. This is a complete misinformed comparison. Taekwon rankers were implemented by Gravity as a constant moderate damage dealer and crowd controller with great tanking/survival capabilities. They were never made to outdamage a sinx. Sinx was implemented to be one of the highest burst damage classes with little survivability other than their agile movements. The way it is right now (after the change) sinx need to use 2 weapons to outdamage the TK. with that they risk getting more damage too. To me that's the way it should be. If you want full out damage you can go Sinx, if you prefer an all around and more safe option TK ranker now is a viable option.

Well said.

[Conner]

TK is fine as is. I don't get why people would want the infinite gone, It's part of iRO and if you change it you're technically not only ruining the game and killing a job that relies on the combo's. Besides it's a taekwon afterall serves its purpose.

Yes I know tk was op when the new buff on the ring was implemented toning it down is a really great idea because the output of the damage it's giving is outrageous.

I'm curious did you guys lower the hp given for being in the top 10 ladder?

PS the damage output of taekwon now is good as is no need to buff it anymore and ladder has been really more active and it's been really competitive lately.

Might be off topic but FB on gs is still really strong lol 70-80k damage even if you counter it, they just switch bullet = ded l0l and they have a lot of hp for some reason +charge attack. Just saying. ^_^