Ammunition :)

[mutilixus]

Hi fRO,

Just pushing my luck here, I don't know if this has been brought up before so pardon me. I'm suggesting something about bio's ammunition. I've been playing fRO quite a while now and I'm still wondering why Snipers, Stalkers, Ninjas, and GS can carry 1 of each ammo (10 for GS) and use it forever without re-stocking while bios have to carry a lot of bottles and re-stock everytime. I mean, I see no harm in making bios' ammo unlimited too...

First of all, no one farms bottle grenade and acid bottles because it is available in the mall so no one would be affected economically by making bottles unlimited. Another thing is, I personally see this (carrying a lot of bottles) as a disadvantage to bios because it decreases their space for seeds and fcp bottles... yes, bios have carts but it can only carry much, and yes, bottles weighs 1 a piece but so does element stones and shurikens, and arrows (even lighter with 0.1/0.2 a piece), and bullets with 0.2/0.5. Plus, having to buy bottles from time to time is a waste (1k of each bottle costs 760k).

Imagine Snipers carrying 500 arrows and has to re-stock arrows every *damn* time (take note that they need more than one arrow element) I bet they would complain about seed space too. Or GS running out of bullets in the midst of a fight because they consume 10 bullets per desperado. Think of the same for bios too.

With that being said, please consider my suggestion of making Acid Bottles and Bottle Grenades unlimited (or at least make it weigh zero, if making it unlimited is too much to ask, which I doubt.)

Anyway, that's all for now. Thanks and I hope you consider this suggestion plausible.

*edit: reduced cursing, and more reasoning :th_sry:

Edited August 9, 2015 by mutilixus

[JustThatGuy]

I'll have to say -1 to this simply because I'd be more comfortable with making everything else not unlimited.

If the person is good with a bio during pvp then them running out of bottles is literally the only way they die, The speed people can spam Acid demo at is stunlockable so this would just mean you cant do anything but waste seeds or die.
which would make it unfair for snipers and ninja's etc. Considering they cant spam fast enough legitimately to stunlock someone in one spot.

I'd rather recommend that snipers/ninja's/Gs/Stalkers etc have to carry more ammo instead of just one. Although i don't really see why this is a problem. A good bio/player would always stock 10+k of each bottles in their storage incase they ran out
.

*Edited*

- And if they made ammo run out for all classes, it would make the Legendary ammo quests pointless.

Edited August 10, 2015 by JustThatGuy

[mutilixus]

If the person is good with a bio during pvp then them running out of bottles is literally the only way they die, The speed people can spam Acid demo at is stunlockable so this would just mean you cant do anything but waste seeds or die.

which would make it unfair for snipers and ninja's etc. Considering they cant spam fast enough legitimately to stunlock someone in one spot.

This is why strategies are made. All spam-able skills can stun-lock anytime, it's just a matter of how you get away of that situation. Plus the "you can't do anything but to waste seeds or die" part is pure BS, Bio's skill range isn't that long for you to not make any retaliation if you are on the range class, so it's still a matter of how many seeds you can carry in a battle, which is in bio's case; not too many compared to other classes.

A good bio/player would always stock 10+k of each bottles in their storage incase they ran out

Indeed. But still a disadvantage during a battle because you have to get to your inventory from time to time.

And if they made ammo run out for all classes, it would make the Legendary ammo quests pointless.

I'm not saying they make all the ammo run out, I'm just making a situation comparison between bios and other ammo using classes that's why I used the word "imagine".

Thanks for your insight tho. :th_ok:

[JustThatGuy]

I see your points and i actually just thought ; Everyone who uses the storage in battle is in the same situation when it comes to using items. (Bio's for bottles etc)
I go to the storage every 5-10minutes during pvp to get more seeds, Idk. I think it would help bio but would also make it alittle over powered.
I mean I'd +1 but if it wasnt for the idea that i could actually sit at the emp and just never worry about bottles, only seeds then i'd never die..

[mutilixus]

I mean I'd +1 but if it wasnt for the idea that i could actually sit at the emp and just never worry about bottles, only seeds then i'd never die..

Haha, this is what actually Snipers, Stalkers, Clowns/Gypsys, GS, and Ninjas are during WoE, just reloading seed but not ammo.

[JustThatGuy]

well screw it.
+1 hf.

[mutilixus]

well screw it.

+1 hf.

hahahaha

[Rayray]

I main biochemist but I will -1. There are big differences of arrows and bottles for bios and this is why you cannot compare them.

1. Acid demonstration hits 10x while using 2x bottles(one of each). Snipers will run out of ammo faster than biochemists if we did not make their arrows unlimited. GS will run out faster as desperado uses a lot of bullets and will sometimes just hit 3x. Looking at it numerically and only counting on the stunlock properties of the skills, if we make the arrows/bullets not unlimited: It would only take a bio to use 2x bottles to get 10 hits, 5 arrows for snipers to get the same amount of hits(double strafe, 10 arrows if FAS), and will probably make GS run out of bullets before he can even hit a desperado that actually hit 10x in one cast. both classes(sniper and gs) do not have carts

2. Think of long term pvp where commands are not allowed(events like LMS or others). If my bottles are unlimited there, all I have to do is wait for someones FCP to run out, while I can happily spam acid demonstration to no end. Acid demonstration has the best stunlock in game imo(second would be spiral pierce) simply because it hits 10x and has almost no delay with 3x kiels. I can literally win ANY given fight if bottles are unlimited simply because I can spam them without thinking and wait for their FCP to run out(which is easy in events where commands are not allowed. )

3. Make bottles unlimited, then make 2 bios duel each other. I'm telling you, that will never end especially if they fight somewhere with storage on.

Making bottles unlimited will literally make one of the only weaknesses of biochemist class practically disappear. I dunno if you were pvping in pvp room when the said room dispels FCP upon entering. That will be the same thing if we made the bottles unlimited, it will just take longer since people will have to wait for FCP to end, but they can easily stunlock them in place for several minutes until FCP runs out, then it's game over. This will spell doom against melee characters since they will never be able to get close to the biochemist.

Lastly, in my experience, I run out of my seeds(both on character and cart) way before I have to get bottles from my cart. I never ever ran out in a middle of a fight. This is taking into account of no commands setting like in events, because I only consider that as the benchmark of whether we will need unlimited bottles. Anyone can just get stuff in storage(melee people use converters at an alarming rate as well, especially valk randgris is easily obtainable).

[kyoshiro029]

i think sir rayray's explanations give much enlightenment in this topic.....

[mutilixus]

I main biochemist but I will -1. There are big differences of arrows and bottles for bios and this is why you cannot compare them.

1. Acid demonstration hits 10x while using 2x bottles(one of each). Snipers will run out of ammo faster than biochemists if we did not make their arrows unlimited. GS will run out faster as desperado uses a lot of bullets and will sometimes just hit 3x. Looking at it numerically and only counting on the stunlock properties of the skills, if we make the arrows/bullets not unlimited: It would only take a bio to use 2x bottles to get 10 hits, 5 arrows for snipers to get the same amount of hits(double strafe, 10 arrows if FAS), and will probably make GS run out of bullets before he can even hit a desperado that actually hit 10x in one cast. both classes(sniper and gs) do not have carts

2. Think of long term pvp where commands are not allowed(events like LMS or others). If my bottles are unlimited there, all I have to do is wait for someones FCP to run out, while I can happily spam acid demonstration to no end. Acid demonstration has the best stunlock in game imo(second would be spiral pierce) simply because it hits 10x and has almost no delay with 3x kiels. I can literally win ANY given fight if bottles are unlimited simply because I can spam them without thinking and wait for their FCP to run out(which is easy in events where commands are not allowed. )

3. Make bottles unlimited, then make 2 bios duel each other. I'm telling you, that will never end especially if they fight somewhere with storage on.

Making bottles unlimited will literally make one of the only weaknesses of biochemist class practically disappear. I dunno if you were pvping in pvp room when the said room dispels FCP upon entering. That will be the same thing if we made the bottles unlimited, it will just take longer since people will have to wait for FCP to end, but they can easily stunlock them in place for several minutes until FCP runs out, then it's game over. This will spell doom against melee characters since they will never be able to get close to the biochemist.

Lastly, in my experience, I run out of my seeds(both on character and cart) way before I have to get bottles from my cart. I never ever ran out in a middle of a fight. This is taking into account of no commands setting like in events, because I only consider that as the benchmark of whether we will need unlimited bottles. Anyone can just get stuff in storage(melee people use converters at an alarming rate as well, especially valk randgris is easily obtainable).

^ Well the pro has spoken... what can I say... haha sry for this nub suggestion :th_sry:

[Rayray]

It's not a noob suggestion really, I suggested the same thing before(but that was way back in around 2010, so we do not have all the nice stuff we have now).

To give you a perspective: Originally, the price of one bottle is 20k zeny. So for just once cast of AD, you need 40k zeny. Now multiply that by 600 casts(which is the normal I can carry on my bio's inventory) and you will need 24,000,000 zeny just to do around 5 mins of pvp. In a day, I would use 100m-200m, even more during WoE. With my suggestion in 2010, it was reduced to 10k. I came back around 2012, made another suggestion on it and they reduced the price to what it is now.

You really cannot compare the price of it now. Since you claim that 1k of each bottle is just 760k now. If I buy 1k bottles each(2k bottles) with the original price, it would cost me 40,000,000.

[JustThatGuy]

Just saying, RSX+Dev+gr+gtb.

[Rayray]

Just saying, RSX+Dev+gr+gtb.

Someone tried that to me, he died with less than 5 hits of thana mammonite, I even remember someone dying within 2 hits and I don't even have high STR nor am I using loki seals. I already hit 50k+ on someone using raydric. Anyone who still tries that would still die even if I just use incantation samurai card. While you are thinking you are smart on doing so, you just actually exploited yourself by switching to a gear setup that only counters 1 skill. And it also proves that if we make the bottles unlimited, you are left with one counter, which is rsx+dev+gr+gtb, and that opens you up dying easily against any elemental physical attacks.

[Igopewpew]

I've always been 2 sided with this suggestion and am not sure what side to choose :p. I'll explain my reasoning which will partly repeat RayRay but will also explain why some things said here are wrong in my opinion.

Firstly the reasons why I urge to say yes to this suggestion:

1: First and foremost creators are a merchant class. One of the biggest benefits the merchant class has over other classes (on regular servers) is that they can carry a lot more items and have a higher weight limit. This additional weight carriage comes from 2 things. 1. The Enlarge weight limit skill. and 2. Your Cart. Now that almost every class that has a low weight capacity has been given the enlarge weight limit skill this advantage is somewhat gone. Since things like WoE have storage enabled the use of a cart is nullified as well. It is for this reason that I would agree on making the bottles unlimited because creators are no longer at an advantage with their carry potential but actually at a disadvantage because the bottles are heavy and you need many. A good creator will also have to carry seeds, converters, blue potions for your homun, pet food for the homun and a few plant bottles as well. Not to mention that if you want to fully utilize a creators potential you need to carry both int and str accesories which obviously weight a lot.

2: Another reason why I agree is that AD might be able to stun lock, but AD is also the easiest skill to reduce in damage and basically nullify it out of all skills in the game. You don't need devilings that leave you very vurnerable to the mamonite. There's other options as well. Also because AD hits so many times the selfcast pneuma would happen within a few casts at any time as well. That'd be an easy way to block the "constant AD spam" mentioned earlier in the topic.

Reasons why I disagree with the suggestion:

1: Making AD bottles unlimited will bring some crowd control to creators (aka stunlocking a target) without much consequences. Just like LKs currently can but without the drawback of having to be too close to the target. A lot of people will complain about the endless spam but I think if you know what you're doing you can deal with it pretty easily. Making the bottles unlimited will allow hybrid or str chemists to carry as much seeds as WS can. It's only a question whether that is needed or not. In my personal opinion I think them being able to carry that many seeds is nothing but their purpose but some might disagree.

[Rayray]

Well I was waiting for you Airi to actually comment since you probably is one of the only biochemists I would like to give an opinion.

We will always be in between regarding this suggestion(as evidence, I actually suggested it before myself, but settled with the reduction of the bottle prices).

I was mostly looking on the non 1v1 situation. 1v1, infinite bottles are not something to be bothered about. Unless the biochemist is one of us(we are both hybrid), infinite bottles poses very little threat against the most common classes. VERY few biochemists even use cart revolution to push people off pneuma.

group pvp or events, it's another story. Biochemists will never do any other role in those except being support. The infinite bottles will allow them to carry more seeds among other stuff. AD stunlock on those type of events would shine as a good support skill, especially if the bio has a decent partner to cover AD's only weakness at that point(pneuma). In short, any other place that does not have Storage will make unlimited AD OP, even with the existence of pneuma(cart revolution can easily remove that).

To normal players, infinite AD is something a bit OP. A skill that stunlocks, breaks armor and has almost no cast delay, on paper it is OP if we made the bottles infinite, and that is not counting hybrids who have more STR than pure int ones. I am not sure about your stat build on hybrid but on mine I can carry a lot of seeds + bottles with almost no effort, and is using minimal STR (just enough to deal decent damage with mammonite). To players who pvp a lot and actually switch to auto pneuma instead of the deviling+gtb combo, infinite AD is not a problem, hell it seems weaker than bolts in terms of burst.

[Igopewpew]

I was mostly looking on the non 1v1 situation. 1v1, infinite bottles are not something to be bothered about. Unless the biochemist is one of us(we are both hybrid), infinite bottles poses very little threat against the most common classes. VERY few biochemists even use cart revolution to push people off pneuma.

I basically always consider balance 1v1 above all. Team pvp is secondary when balancing classes to each other. If you start balancing in team situations you'd have to start balancing around provoke, gospel and mind breaker as well which is nearly impossible to do.

To normal players, infinite AD is something a bit OP. A skill that stunlocks, breaks armor and has almost no cast delay, on paper it is OP if we made the bottles infinite, and that is not counting hybrids who have more STR than pure int ones. I am not sure about your stat build on hybrid but on mine I can carry a lot of seeds + bottles with almost no effort, and is using minimal STR (just enough to deal decent damage with mammonite). To players who pvp a lot and actually switch to auto pneuma instead of the deviling+gtb combo, infinite AD is not a problem, hell it seems weaker than bolts in terms of burst.

When I look at balance I mostly look at all options a class has compared to all options other classes have and how one can counter the other. Therefore I don't really look at what most people would consider OP, I more look at if it actually is OP on the full-geared vs full geared spectrum of pvp which basically is what 'end-game' comes down to on a PvP server. Looking at that spectrum I'd have to conclude that infinite AD wouldn't/shouldn't cause any additional trouble in fights opposing the chemist compared to what they are like now. The only change would be that creators become a tad more survivable and don't have to constantly worry about their bottle supplies. I as a quite highly invested str chemist feel that I can't carry nearly as much as I should be able to compared to other classes due to all the classes receiving the weight benefits.

[mmband]

+1 to this..... on certain occasions as well where some event .. they wont allow u to use @storage... bio is being so disadvantages with limited bottles + seeds to tank and survive.... compare to other class that only need to worries about bring the maximum capacity of seeds

[Rayray]

As I said before, I am not entirely against the suggestion(I did suggest it back then). My main reason for not agreeing is that people will probably cry foul and call it OP if we get infinite bottles. Now I know this isn't a decent reason but we had a lot of stuff nerfed or changed simply because the community did not entirely like it. Second would be that bottles are the ONLY Zeny sink we have left aside from the passes. Inflation of zeny might become an issue(the word is might, although it probably won't matter much anyway). Third is that I still see the bottles are the only weaknesses of the biochems in terms of events. Unlike WS, we can freely use our carts to put supplies in, which gives us an advantage at that point. We might have lost the exclusiveness of increase weight limit, but at least we still have that. Fourth is that I have never really experienced running out of bottles as long as I pay attention, hence I do not find it entirely needed. But this is purely my opinion, and I do agree on some of the points Airi said above.

We can probably just make a test run, make it infinite for a time period and see from there if anything changed at all.

[Hollister]

I swore this has been suggested before and was shot down lol. Anyways, -1. Bio would be so op. If you had unlimited bottles, you would have tons of space for berries/seeds and on top of that, you have your cart for extra storage.

+1 to this..... on certain occasions as well where some event .. they wont allow u to use @storage... bio is being so disadvantages with limited bottles + seeds to tank and survive.... compare to other class that only need to worries about bring the maximum capacity of seeds

Well, come prepared. I've won countless events with my bio without having to restock from my cart. Its about managing your bottles:berries/seeds ratio.

[Jona]

+1 to this.... but since many ppl didnt agree now it will be nerfed lol :th_swt:

[olipogi04]

if bios run out of bottles.. use bolts! xD