Disable Puppetring + Owl Baron Card On Champion Class

[arch]

A good supernovice would be able to counter gtb card. The cape thing is different than this suggestion though, the capes are giving the Supernovice class buffs that were meant for other classes. For champions, this is not the case. Everyone can use stonecurse, everyone can use lex. Just not everyone can uses the capes from other classes. That's the only reason why the capes should not be wearable by supernovices. The effects were made for specific classes, not for the SN one.

It was just an example to that i agreed that everything has its counters.

[arch]

This is, erm horsecrap.. if I may say it politely. Any change with gear swapping or card setups effects gameplay, it effects builds and it effects the classes in general. A good champ right now (that is willing to use lex) will alter their build so he kills everything in 2 asuras, but won't make it strong enough so that 1 OL or some simple reflect will kill him in one none lex hit. You on purposely weaken your regular asura to be able to kill people in 2 and be safe for low reflect gear. Knowing that as soon as you double asura or lex you will kill either way.

As for champ's being the 'master race' because they have ranged and close combat. Here's some other classes that have multiple ways to fight if used well:

1: Creator: Creators can use both AD/Magic build or better yet, an Hybrid build between mamonite and magic+AD. (Range + short + magic)

2: A SN has Magic damage and if you're decent at it you'll have a hybrid build again. Magic + melee to counter gtb users. (Magic + short)

3: LK has Bowling bash, vital strike etc and a skill that's really good but highly underused Spear boomerang + spiral pierce. (Melee and range)

4: Stalkers can go bow style with for example bowling bash copied (Range ds+ bb melee)

5: Paladins have holy cross and shield chain in a str based build (Melee + ranged)

6: Profs have bolts + stave for gtb which does physical damage so (magic + pshysical)

The list goes on. Almost every class has melee and ranged abilities that can be used to high potential on this server.

What I meant was that TSS and Asura Strike scale very well with Strength... Just to add on..

1. Creators using bolts as well as acid bomb offers variety to biochemists, just incase someone were to pneuma, or gtb... And it looks like a champ can do both.. I might as well add the use of skolls..

2. Super Novices have to split their stats up between Strength or Intelligence, or might just have to force on a gtb in order to do some damage with mammo. It's still mediocre damage compared to 100% matk SN.

3. Lord Knights do have a ranged attack (spiral pierce), but its not as powerful as bowling bash, it's just constant damage that makes fights more colorful. In addition, they need both cursed and blessed ring to inflict damage..

4. I haven't seen many Stalkers using bowling bash with double strafe.. maybe because it hasn't been successful.. I don't know. Stalkers have very low hp so they wouldn't even try bowling bash against other classes.

5. Paladins are just scary. But one thing that i noticed was that, they're forced to break your armor to inflict more damage with martyr's or shield chain.

6. Professors do have stave.. but that's just used as a filler, because they have nothing else better to do (might as well die trying).

Out of all these examples, Creators and Pallies are the only ones, in my opinion, that are worth investing in.

But you said those are just classes that have multiple ways of fighting, they didn't have to be successful, i give props to you though.

I also have no problem about gear swapping, anyways, a good champion doesn't even need Lex or Stone Curse, a good champion merely outplays his opponent.

(Champs have to switch gears anyways in order to survive x2 OL's anyways whether or not stone curse or lex is applied.)

There's a difference between needing them and utilizing them. If you remove these you allow people to just go full damage gear vs any champ because there's no way for them to counter it. Changing gear at the right time in the right situation requires knowledge of the game/items and requires awareness. It can give you the edge in a fight and it's not something that should be nerfed by limiting champ's options.

It would be an indirect nerf to many classes if you'd remove the usage of these cards. removing it for only the champ would give other classes the advantage of using both stone curse and lex while they cant. That means that champ indeed gets nerfed compared to the other classes, because battle options get taken away from them. It's the same as the change to the thanatos card. It was only changed for champion into a way weaker effect. This removed a battle option for champions and thus is considered a nerf to the class. (Don't get me wrong the thanatos effect should be different for champs, but it's almost useless right now for champs).

No way to counter it? Champs have skills such as pneuma, root, and snap, and gear swapping into gtb in order to stay alive.

Champions are the only class that can utilize these cards in order to 1 shot their opponents (other than profs), and other classes don't benefit from them this much, except bio and pally.

Btw thanatos card was nerfed for champions in order to get rid of their one shot potential with asura.

It's not about what's 'fair' counterplay and what's not. The options are there and they should be. Yes double devi's would leave you vulnerable, this is why your changing gear and the timing of it is essential. If using lex on a champion is considered unfair, then we'll have to move on to other 'unfair' stuff as well. We'd have to disable people from getting provoke from others, we'll have to disable gospell from giving double damage, we'll have to disable tons of stuff. Yes a champ could use sight, but how many champs on this server do you think have a horong card carded in their loki? Not a lot, I can tell you that much. Cloaking is just one of the many ways to counter it, it shouldn't be too hard figuring them out.

This is going too far as to nerfing other classes buffing others.

What i see today is champs, solely, one shotting others, without the help of other classes and their buffs.

Edited November 29, 2014 by arch

[Shadi]

What I meant was that TSS and Asura Strike scale very well with Strength... Just to add on..

All percentage skills in RO scale well... because they are % based they scale with our higher stats.

1. Creators using bolts as well as acid bomb offers variety to biochemists, just incase someone were to pneuma, or gtb... And it looks like a champ can do both.. I might as well add the use of skolls..

2. Super Novices have to split their stats up between Strength or Intelligence, or might just have to force on a gtb in order to do some damage with mammo. It's still mediocre damage compared to 100% matk SN.

3. Lord Knights do have a ranged attack (spiral pierce), but its not as powerful as bowling bash, it's just constant damage that makes fights more colorful. In addition, they need both cursed and blessed ring to inflict damage..

1: vs pneuma you got cart revelation or magnum break, vs gtb you can mamonite or AD. use of skolls? what does that have to do with anything ? any class can use skolls,

2: Supernovices have more than enough stats to do so, they hardly need agility for max aspd, they hardly need dex for instant cast, they don't need vit for HP. So yes, they can split almost all stats on those. If you want to go 100% matk supernovice, that's your choice but you limit your battle options cause they definitely are not limited to just matk.

3: Spiral pierce is incredibly powerful, if used well LK's can keep distance with spear stab, vital strike and spiral pierce. Together with being tanky and as soon as someone uses rsx, bowling bash would wreck.

4. I haven't seen many Stalkers using bowling bash with double strafe.. maybe because it hasn't been successful.. I don't know. Stalkers have very low hp so they wouldn't even try bowling bash against other classes.

5. Paladins are just scary. But one thing that i noticed was that, they're forced to break your armor to inflict more damage with martyr's or shield chain.

6. Professors do have stave.. but that's just used as a filler, because they have nothing else better to do (might as well die trying).

4: It has been very succesful for a long time. Just not a lot of people play stalkers effectively or at all nowadays. Their HP is fine though.

5: Paladins really don't need to break an armor to do damage, yes if you break an armor and remove their ghost you basically can one shot people with shield chain but it's not neccesary to kill.

6: It's definitely not just a filler if you know what you're doing. Profs can be nearly immortal to most classes when played right and stave crasher can do serious damage vs gtb users.

Either way with all the examples, champs do not have a major advantage over all the other classes. Champs have many downsides as well just like any class does.

No way to counter it? Champs have skills such as pneuma, root, and snap, and gear swapping into gtb in order to stay alive.

Champions are the only class that can utilize these cards in order to 1 shot their opponents (other than profs), and other classes don't benefit from them this much, except bio and pally.

Yes they have utility skills, that doesn't mean they are able to counter someone from going full damage gear-wise. Every other class however will be able to stop other classes from going full damage. How would this be fair in any way? disabling it only for one class ? Champs are in no way OP at this moment, I see absolutely no reason to nerf them or their gear options and force them to take full damage from every single physical class in the game.

Btw thanatos card was nerfed for champions in order to get rid of their one shot potential with asura.

What? No. Thanatos' original effect doesn't even effect asura strike. It was nerfed because asura is able to force people to go double raydrics and having thanatos effect on FO while forcing people to go raydrics with asura would be too strong. That's why it was nerfed.

This is going too far as to nerfing other classes buffing others.

What i see today is champs, solely, one shotting others, without the help of other classes and their buffs.

Perhaps that's because your suggestion includes balance and includes a nerf to a certain class by limiting it's gear options.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Shadi

[arch]

All percentage skills in RO scale well... because they are % based they scale with our higher stats.

That's obvious, no need to explain that. But you need to agree with me that Tss and Asura make champions very capable of killing most classes, there's no need for a crutch such as lex aeterna or stone curse.

1: vs pneuma you got cart revelation or magnum break, vs gtb you can mamonite or AD. use of skolls? what does that have to do with anything ? any class can use skolls,

2: Supernovices have more than enough stats to do so, they hardly need agility for max aspd, they hardly need dex for instant cast, they don't need vit for HP. So yes, they can split almost all stats on those. If you want to go 100% matk supernovice, that's your choice but you limit your battle options cause they definitely are not limited to just matk.

3: Spiral pierce is incredibly powerful, if used well LK's can keep distance with spear stab, vital strike and spiral pierce. Together with being tanky and as soon as someone uses rsx, bowling bash would wreck.

4: It has been very succesful for a long time. Just not a lot of people play stalkers effectively or at all nowadays. Their HP is fine though.

5: Paladins really don't need to break an armor to do damage, yes if you break an armor and remove their ghost you basically can one shot people with shield chain but it's not neccesary to kill.

6: It's definitely not just a filler if you know what you're doing. Profs can be nearly immortal to most classes when played right and stave crasher can do serious damage vs gtb users.

1. You can use RSX card so you don't get your armor broken from acid bomb, or get knocked back by cart revolution

I tried a mamo build with Biochemist, using the cursed ring, the average damage that was dealt was 30k.. its not very strong..

I was implying the use of thanatos.. the thanatos card stacked with mamo does hella damage to someone who isn't prepared.

2. Mamo is rarely seen again in game, and the last time i saw a successful hybrid SN in game (last year ago) forced people to wear gtb, due to high damage with bolts, and switched to mamo to deal the finishing blows. Otherwise, they would deal an average of 20-40k damage depending on how highly they invested in str.

3. I now agree that spiral pierce is very powerful, i saw it ingame with my friend, and she said that lk cursed only adds ~300 damage per hit. But still does 30k per spiral pierce average.

4. Stalkers nowadays play very efficiently, they utilize soul link, backslide, and their Stealth skill to its full potential, along with Fas. They are very annoying to fight and takes a long time. Using bowling bash to get infont of someone's face would be more ineffective.

5. I recently fought a battle pally in the Pvp room, and he got a total of 800+ kills, the only way i would die was by getting my armor broken, other than that, the constant damage of shield chain and holy cross wasn't gonna do it.

6. Again, without thanatos, stave crasher would do an average of 35k on gtb users. And you say profs can be immortal yet claim that champs aren't?

Most classes have an average of 200k HP, it's easy to use yggdrasil seeds or berries to survive.

The average damage for Tss is 40k-60k and asura is usually 2 shot kill. Champions in comparison have more damage.

Either way with all the examples, champs do not have a major advantage over all the other classes. Champs have many downsides as well just like any class does.

You state this, but you don't have any examples.

Yes they have utility skills, that doesn't mean they are able to counter someone from going full damage gear-wise. Every other class however will be able to stop other classes from going full damage. How would this be fair in any way? disabling it only for one class ? Champs are in no way OP at this moment, I see absolutely no reason to nerf them or their gear options and force them to take full damage from every single physical class in the game.

Yet, their utility skills do counter someone from going full damage, it's all about gameplay. Disabling Puppetring card, Pest card (same affect as puppetring), and Owl Baron card, won't affect the gameplay at all, they still have to utilize Tss and Asura to kill their opponents and Root, Pneuma, and Snap to stay alive. How would Nerfing a 1 shot kill not be fair? I don't understand your logic.

When a champion uses stone curse to stop those who use ship captain hat, the only equip that allows full damage gear-wise (that i can think of), they get punished by getting 1 shot, But which class punishes the Champion for going full damage gear-wise by 1 shotting them?

My champion has won the pvp ladder 6 times in a row without the use of these cards. Along the way, people have been caught feeding themselves and got banned, but i remained 1st place throughout those 7 weeks.

What? No. Thanatos' original effect doesn't even effect asura strike. It was nerfed because asura is able to force people to go double raydrics and having thanatos effect on FO while forcing people to go raydrics with asura would be too strong. That's why it was nerfed.

I remember back when MVPs had 200+ million hp and champs were able to do 10+ mil asura to them with thanatos card. I also didn't know that Tss/Fo was affected by thanatos.

What i see today is champs, solely, one shotting others, without the help of other classes and their buffs.

Perhaps that's because your suggestion includes balance and includes a nerf to a certain class by limiting it's gear options.

I don't understand your reply, but i do understand that you have a problem with limiting gear options.

Of course there are some champions that can instakill others without the use of stone curse, lex aeterna, or from buffs (provoke or x2 attack). Do i think that should be nerfed? No, They most likely play a glass cannon build, and they are forced to walk up to people and asura, the delay from snap allows some time for gear swapping.

There's another problem with cloaking champions who go for a full asura build. One might have to wear Maya Purple card in order to see them, which removes the forsaken soldier card, allowing those champions to use puppetring card.

[Rayray]

That's obvious, no need to explain that. But you need to agree with me that Tss and Asura make champions very capable of killing most classes, there's no need for a crutch such as lex aeterna or stone curse.

1. You can use RSX card so you don't get your armor broken from acid bomb, or get knocked back by cart revolution

I tried a mamo build with Biochemist, using the cursed ring, the average damage that was dealt was 30k.. its not very strong..

I was implying the use of thanatos.. the thanatos card stacked with mamo does hella damage to someone who isn't prepared.

2. Mamo is rarely seen again in game, and the last time i saw a successful hybrid SN in game (last year ago) forced people to wear gtb, due to high damage with bolts, and switched to mamo to deal the finishing blows. Otherwise, they would deal an average of 20-40k damage depending on how highly they invested in str.

3. I now agree that spiral pierce is very powerful, i saw it ingame with my friend, and she said that lk cursed only adds ~300 damage per hit. But still does 30k per spiral pierce average.

4. Stalkers nowadays play very efficiently, they utilize soul link, backslide, and their Stealth skill to its full potential, along with Fas. They are very annoying to fight and takes a long time. Using bowling bash to get infont of someone's face would be more ineffective.

These 4 are the only ones atm i have a comment on.

1. a 30k mammo isn't too bad,considering most FAS have the same damage. However, 30k should not be your average damage if you built it right(and as you said, you assumed the use of thana) and you know how to use it. 45-60k should be the average mammonite on thana the moment you force them out of skolls, which is pretty easy as a biochem. RSX armor offers protection from armor breaking but lowers your hp so it isn't ideal as a counter if the hybrid bio actually knows what he is doing. The main stgttegy of biochem is to keep people on switching to gears that would screw them up. I can make people switch to their skolls(if I want my acid bomb to do good damage), raydrics(when i want my thana mammo to hurt) or even force them to gtb whenever I want. That is the main gameplay of hybrid biochem.

2. Just because it is rarely seen, does not mean it is not good. Most SN just do not know how to use or have limited gears as SN is not their main.

3. Spiral pierce can be spammed fast and stunlock people, that is its selling point. Also, again, damage isn't everything. A good spear LK screws anyone with vital strike.

4. Bowling bash has a bit of range when used with stalkers, I don't think you can call that inefficient. Also, you can use DS with that build and just use BB when you can corner people. In fact, FAS on a stalker is so inefficient compared to other skills, as stalkers do not have sniper buffs hence the damage of FAS is not as high.

I think Shadi's point here is that the champion class is not the only one who can fight efficiently against most classes if you know what you are doing. Hence, nerfing it indirectly by banning some cards is not the right way to do it.

[arch]

These 4 are the only ones atm i have a comment on.

1. a 30k mammo isn't too bad,considering most FAS have the same damage. However, 30k should not be your average damage if you built it right(and as you said, you assumed the use of thana) and you know how to use it. 45-60k should be the average mammonite on thana the moment you force them out of skolls, which is pretty easy as a biochem. RSX armor offers protection from armor breaking but lowers your hp so it isn't ideal as a counter if the hybrid bio actually knows what he is doing. The main stgttegy of biochem is to keep people on switching to gears that would screw them up. I can make people switch to their skolls(if I want my acid bomb to do good damage), raydrics(when i want my thana mammo to hurt) or even force them to gtb whenever I want. That is the main gameplay of hybrid biochem.

2. Just because it is rarely seen, does not mean it is not good. Most SN just do not know how to use or have limited gears as SN is not their main.

3. Spiral pierce can be spammed fast and stunlock people, that is its selling point. Also, again, damage isn't everything. A good spear LK screws anyone with vital strike.

4. Bowling bash has a bit of range when used with stalkers, I don't think you can call that inefficient. Also, you can use DS with that build and just use BB when you can corner people. In fact, FAS on a stalker is so inefficient compared to other skills, as stalkers do not have sniper buffs hence the damage of FAS is not as high.

Yeah, I never played these classes extensively, i already know that you have guides on SN and biochem, so thanks for your insight.

I just know these disadvantages from these classes from just fighting them in game.

Yet, most classes already have disadvantages from fighting champions, and to be honest, out of those 4 classes pointed out, Biochemist is the only one that champions have trouble fighting (from my own experience). Fighting biochemists, in the pvp room, are especially difficult mostly because of the extra seeds they have on their cart (when commands were disabled). I could go into more detail, but it would go off topic some more.

I think Shadi's point here is that the champion class is not the only one who can fight efficiently against most classes if you know what you are doing. Hence, nerfing it indirectly by banning some cards is not the right way to do it.

If you know what you're doing any class is good, even a sniper who only has ranged skills.

Disabling these cards are the only way to do it. If you think of a 1v1 champ duel, the first person to get lex'd or stoned dies. Whether or not this gets passed, Champions will still be champions, people would just have 1 less thing to worry about.

[Rayray]

Disabling these cards are the only way to do it. If you think of a 1v1 champ duel, the first person to get lex'd or stoned dies. Whether or not this gets passed, Champions will still be champions, people would just have 1 less thing to worry about.

Then that's the problem with this suggestion, you are thinking of 1v1 champ duels. I especially worry of your statement of "people would just have 1 less thing to worry about". I think Shadi already touched this with his comments earlier, that is not a good thing.

It will make fighting champs a brainless thing and no need to switch gears if this is implemented. Disabling puppetring and owl baron on champs will make it so that everyone can just default an item set and just fight on and see who loses seeds/berries first against a champ. Hell, champs doing 1v1 will become as boring as two biochemists fighting each other.

People will never need to use fsoldier against champs, nor will they think of a counter measure against lex, they will just stand their ground wearing dual raydrics + gr and tao and be done with it.

[Shadi]

That's obvious, no need to explain that. But you need to agree with me that Tss and Asura make champions very capable of killing most classes, there's no need for a crutch such as lex aeterna or stone curse.

Again, just because one doesn't specifically need the items to kill someone doesn't mean that you should remove the option to use these gears.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1: 1.I tried a mamo build with Biochemist, using the cursed ring, the average damage that was dealt was 30k.. its not very strong..I was implying the use of thanatos.. the thanatos card stacked with mamo does hella damage to someone who isn't prepared.

2. Mamo is rarely seen again in game, and the last time i saw a successful hybrid SN in game (last year ago) forced people to wear gtb, due to high damage with bolts, and switched to mamo to deal the finishing blows. Otherwise, they would deal an average of 20-40k damage depending on how highly they invested in str.

3. I now agree that spiral pierce is very powerful, i saw it ingame with my friend, and she said that lk cursed only adds ~300 damage per hit. But still does 30k per spiral pierce average.

4. Stalkers nowadays play very efficiently, they utilize soul link, backslide, and their Stealth skill to its full potential, along with Fas. They are very annoying to fight and takes a long time. Using bowling bash to get infont of someone's face would be more ineffective.

5. I recently fought a battle pally in the Pvp room, and he got a total of 800+ kills, the only way i would die was by getting my armor broken, other than that, the constant damage of shield chain and holy cross wasn't gonna do it.

6. Again, without thanatos, stave crasher would do an average of 35k on gtb users. And you say profs can be immortal yet claim that champs aren't?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(for some reason it won't let me quote the above)

1: RSX/ghost will leave anyone with very low hp, mamonite would easily wreck them. If you still fail to kill with mamonite you also can spam your bolts and force someone to gtb. then your mamo will definitely kill the target. Creators are all about forcing the enemy to swap gear.

2: Just because it's rarely seen doesn't mean that it isn't viable. SN can force people to gtb and easily dish out the 40k's you mentioned. And since mamonite has no after skill delay and SN's attack animation is very short it can be spammed easily and fast.

4: Stalkers right now are inefficient. Sure you can utilize backslide and link properly but using fas as a copied skill is very inefficient due to both skills being ranged. If you use bowling bash pneuma won't be a problem for you, rsx won't be a problem for you. Also these examples were listed to show that there's a lot of classes that can both utilize melee and ranged or magic damage. Which was the reason you claimed that champs are 'master race'.

5: Battle paladins can do great damage, even without breaking armor. But aside from their damage they got their survivability that's way higher than most classes. Again I stated these to show viable options for ranged and melee.

6: There's a major difference in survivability between a professor and a champion. Champions survive due to mobility more than anything else. Professors (when played correctly) can make themselves almost immune for ranged, physical and magical damage. Not to mention that professors' hp is quite a lot higher than champ's one.

As the above proves there's many classes that all have their own ups and downs, many classes with ranged and melee potential. Not just champions. So I don't see in what way champions are in such a major advantage that you have to nerf their gear options.

You state this, but you don't have any examples.

I just gave you 6 examples. Do you need more? Or you mean champ's downsides? Ok here's a few:

1: Squishy compared to most classes

2: Easy to reduce damage from their highest damaging skill

3: Easy to reduce damage from their ranged skill and at the same time reducing their highest damaging skill.

4: Extremely vulnerable to reflect more than any other class

5: Reliant on having full mana and thus forced to use berries instead of seeds = less sustainability compared to seed users

6: Something none balanced related but: needs low ping to utilize properly.

Yet, their utility skills do counter someone from going full damage, it's all about gameplay. Disabling Puppetring card, Pest card (same affect as puppetring), and Owl Baron card, won't affect the gameplay at all, they still have to utilize Tss and Asura to kill their opponents and Root, Pneuma, and Snap to stay alive. How would Nerfing a 1 shot kill not be fair? I don't understand your logic.

When a champion uses stone curse to stop those who use ship captain hat, the only equip that allows full damage gear-wise (that i can think of), they get punished by getting 1 shot, But which class punishes the Champion for going full damage gear-wise by 1 shotting them

I remember back when MVPs had 200+ million hp and champs were able to do 10+ mil asura to them with thanatos card. I also didn't know that Tss/Fo was affected by thanatos.

?

How do their utility skills stop anyone from going full damage? Does pneuma stop someone from equiping full damage gear? No. Does root stop anyone from equipping full damage gear? No. Does asura stop them from doing so? No. These are not direct counters to someone going full damage gear. Removing stone and lex allows players to constantly wear full damage gear vs champs without any risk whatsoever. So yes this definitely does effect gameplay, it effects gameplay in a sense that champion has no more switching options for full damage enemies, and it effects gameplay for enemies that can brainlessly always go full damage vs champs because they can't equip the full damage counters anyway. Also stone curse can also help profs/paladins/ninja's to one shot at times.

10+mil asuras has nothing to do with the thanatos cards. It's AK card and anti element/race cards that made that damage. TSS/FO originally was effected by thanatos, and is effected by the new thanatos effect as well. However the thanatos card does nothing for champs with double fbh so it's basically useless for TSS/FO atm.

I don't understand your reply, but i do understand that you have a problem with limiting gear options.

Of course there are some champions that can instakill others without the use of stone curse, lex aeterna, or from buffs (provoke or x2 attack). Do i think that should be nerfed? No, They most likely play a glass cannon build, and they are forced to walk up to people and asura, the delay from snap allows some time for gear swapping.

There's another problem with cloaking champions who go for a full asura build. One might have to wear Maya Purple card in order to see them, which removes the forsaken soldier card, allowing those champions to use puppetring card.

I do have a big problem with limiting gear options because it takes the 'skill' and 'thought' out of the game. Like you said it'll be 'one less thing to deal with' in other words lets stick people stuck on their 1 item set and remove any thought of gear swapping away. That's something negative imo, not positive.

I do not see the problem here? Almost every class has something to get them out of stealth. next to that there's the option to equip maya p for a second to see them and change once you attack them. Or better yet simply use box of sunlight. Problem solved.

Yet, most classes already have disadvantages from fighting champions, and to be honest, out of those 4 classes pointed out, Biochemist is the only one that champions have trouble fighting (from my own experience). Fighting biochemists, in the pvp room, are especially difficult mostly because of the extra seeds they have on their cart (when commands were disabled). I could go into more detail, but it would go off topic some more.

None of the mentioned classes have a big disadvantage vs champs. As long as you utilize them correctly. Yes professors might have a hard time, but the champ will have a hard time vs the professor as well. etc.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Shadi

[arch]

Then that's the problem with this suggestion, you are thinking of 1v1 champ duels. I especially worry of your statement of "people would just have 1 less thing to worry about". I think Shadi already touched this with his comments earlier, that is not a good thing.

No, i was thinking of snipers, sinx, lord knights, and champs, not just champs alone. Of course i wouldn't be thinking about bios, wizards, and profs, since they don't really auto attack unless they're attempting to strip.

As you see, champs already counter these classes with their skills alone, that's why i think its unfair. Even if they go full damage, that doesn't necessarily mean that they would have a chance to deal some damage...

Yeah it would be more convenient for some players, who trigger these effects, but at least they would have a better chance in 1v1 fights.

If you're thinking of party vs party, they still force everyone to wear gr card and they have good synchronization with all magic based classes.

It will make fighting champs a brainless thing and no need to switch gears if this is implemented. Disabling puppetring and owl baron on champs will make it so that everyone can just default an item set and just fight on and see who loses seeds/berries first against a champ. Hell, champs doing 1v1 will become as boring as two biochemists fighting each other.

This is false, most of my friends who play champ complain, "i don't have enough hotkeys for all of my skills." Their wide variety of skills make the champ class probably the most enjoyable. Btw, champs fighting 1v1 is fun to watch, most people huddle around one just to spectate. It's probably the most exciting 1v1 fights throughout the server, because its entirely dictated by gameplay (unless if someone were to lex or stone curse).

Most classes already default an item set just to fight a champ, so no difference in there... As you said, they wear Gr, x2 rays, tao, and try to live it out.

[arch]

Again, just because one doesn't specifically need the items to kill someone doesn't mean that you should remove the option to use these gears.

Yeah i agree, champs don't specifically need the items to kill someone, but those items allow someone else to be punished for not being geared enough. Again, to be fair, what class punishes the champion class for going full damage? Probably another champion.

1: RSX/ghost will leave anyone with very low hp, mamonite would easily wreck them. If you still fail to kill with mamonite you also can spam your bolts and force someone to gtb. then your mamo will definitely kill the target. Creators are all about forcing the enemy to swap gear.

1. The bolts definitely deals more damage than mamo, i won't disagree with you with your statement, but the success of this class depends on what its fighting. Since this thread is about champions, doing mamo to a champ is a bit useless, since the champ will be using yggs for spamming asura, hp will be no issue from constant 30k damage.

2: Just because it's rarely seen doesn't mean that it isn't viable. SN can force people to gtb and easily dish out the 40k's you mentioned. And since mamonite has no after skill delay and SN's attack animation is very short it can be spammed easily and fast.

2. Again, won't disagree, but when they fight a champ, its basically the same as fighting a bio, damage wouldn't matter as long as the champion is spamming asura, or kiting the sn by snap + tss. (Thanks to rayray's build, most don't even wear gr vs champs)

4: Stalkers right now are inefficient. Sure you can utilize backslide and link properly but using fas as a copied skill is very inefficient due to both skills being ranged. If you use bowling bash pneuma won't be a problem for you, rsx won't be a problem for you. Also these examples were listed to show that there's a lot of classes that can both utilize melee and ranged or magic damage. Which was the reason you claimed that champs are 'master race'.

4. Most notable stalkers are very patient and wait for them to for them to chase after them because the purpose for a stalker is to survive, not walk up to tank some damage. Again, getting back onto topic, if a stalker would bb a champion under pneuma, that would be suicide, intentionally or not.

Btw, i was just quoting "master race" from ThePerfectHit and Roi.

5: Battle paladins can do great damage, even without breaking armor. But aside from their damage they got their survivability that's way higher than most classes. Again I stated these to show viable options for ranged and melee.

5. This is probably the only class that everyone has difficulty fighting, except for bio, yet all of the damage can still be avoided by a champion by snaps + pneumas.

6: There's a major difference in survivability between a professor and a champion. Champions survive due to mobility more than anything else. Professors (when played correctly) can make themselves almost immune for ranged, physical and magical damage. Not to mention that professors' hp is quite a lot higher than champ's one.

6. Yeah that's true fundamentally, but if you actually played a prof in game, it wouldn't work out as well. A prof would have to wear rsx, so it wouldn't be pushed out of safety wall and blinding mist, making it's hp ~120k+. If you wear a tao the max hp gets bumped up to a whopping 180k. They too have the skill magic coat so they have more reduct, but other than that, gtb really cripples them.

If they were to go up 1v1 against the champion, it would probably have no chance of winning, with gtb and pneuma.

None of the mentioned classes have a big disadvantage vs champs. As long as you utilize them correctly. Yes professors might have a hard time, but the champ will have a hard time vs the professor as well. etc.

The champion class can simply kite all of those classes, and for stalkers, they can snap + magnum break to kill them. According to my in game experience, most classes have a disadvantage over champs.

As the above proves there's many classes that all have their own ups and downs, many classes with ranged and melee potential. Not just champions. So I don't see in what way champions are in such a major advantage that you have to nerf their gear options.

As the above proves, the champion doesn't need crutches such as puppetring card, pest card, or owl baron card. I compared all of them to a champion in order to prove the "master race." If they can counter most classes that have both ranged and melee potential, they do have a major advantage.

Of course this all completely depends on gameplay, if a more skilled bio, sn, or pally fights a champ who doesn't fully utilize their skills, they would lose.

I just gave you 6 examples. Do you need more? Or you mean champ's downsides? Ok here's a few:

1: Squishy compared to most classes

2: Easy to reduce damage from their highest damaging skill

3: Easy to reduce damage from their ranged skill and at the same time reducing their highest damaging skill.

4: Extremely vulnerable to reflect more than any other class

5: Reliant on having full mana and thus forced to use berries instead of seeds = less sustainability compared to seed users

6: Something none balanced related but: needs low ping to utilize properly.

1. The champions have, arguably, the best survivability.

2. As you said, they have really high mobility, so catching up to a backsliding sinx and escaping danger would be easy.

3. They can kite most classes with snap, pneuma, tss.

4. If their asura damage is reduced... it wouldn't really matter, it would still be a 2 shot kill to most classes.

5. Most some pinoys who play champ use seeds (i don't know why), so they don't really need to rely on berries.

6. They still carry 280 berries which is similar to how many seeds most classes can carry.

7. It is still possible to play champions properly, with the use of ping reducing programs (if one was addicted to champ).

I'll add more if you add more :th_ok: .

[arch]

I do have a big problem with limiting gear options because it takes the 'skill' and 'thought' out of the game. Like you said it'll be 'one less thing to deal with' in other words lets stick people stuck on their 1 item set and remove any thought of gear swapping away. That's something negative imo, not positive.

If you don't like "skill" and "thought" being taken off the game, then you should be agreeing to my topic... Don't assume that every champ utilizes every skill for a champ possible, some just mindlessly wait for stone curse or lex to go off, then asura. In my opinion, these cards ruin this class.

I do not see the problem here? Almost every class has something to get them out of stealth. next to that there's the option to equip maya p for a second to see them and change once you attack them. Or better yet simply use box of sunlight. Problem solved.

Sure if box of sunlight lasted more than 30 seconds. Otherwise, maya p takes away f soldier, giving you get a chance to be stoned if you hit them. Those 30 seconds can be stalled by the champion fairly easily. If they were to buff box of sunlight, maya purple would be useless.

How do their utility skills stop anyone from going full damage? Does pneuma stop someone from equiping full damage gear? No. Does root stop anyone from equipping full damage gear? No. Does asura stop them from doing so? No. These are not direct counters to someone going full damage gear. Removing stone and lex allows players to constantly wear full damage gear vs champs without any risk whatsoever. So yes this definitely does effect gameplay, it effects gameplay in a sense that champion has no more switching options for full damage enemies, and it effects gameplay for enemies that can brainlessly always go full damage vs champs because they can't equip the full damage counters anyway. Also stone curse can also help profs/paladins/ninja's to one shot at times.

It doesn't stop them changing gears, but it does avoid them, yes? It's because they have these utility skills that they can be nerfed. Other classes can use puppetring against full damage users, yet puppetring can be countered by an evil druid card. The undead property, if you didn't know already, stops one from being stone cursed, but changing your armor property to undead wouldn't necessarily work against champions because of asura strike.

This "full damage" that you have been talking about is the Ship Captain hat, so please refer to that, as it is the only gear that allows someone go to full damage (not speaking about matk).

Does this effect gameplay? sure it does, if you rely on those cards. Do champions need switching options? No. It's easier to just snap away or place pneuma on yourself (unless if you're thinking of using the stone curse to one shot). Does this change how other's fight against champions? Of course it does, at least it lets others have a chance to kill champions from their made mistakes.

I've only seen 3 champions who commented on this forums topic, 2 saying that it wouldn't affect them at all.

[Shadi]

If you don't like "skill" and "thought" being taken off the game, then you should be agreeing to my topic... Don't assume that every champ utilizes every skill for a champ possible, some just mindlessly wait for stone curse or lex to go off, then asura. In my opinion, these cards ruin this class.

No thanks, fighting as and fighting vs champion is a lot more complicated now as it would be when you remove these options. All you'd have to go vs a champion is go full damage gear, with AoD or Ship captain. You'd remove a big part of the champ's gear switching and you'd remove ALL gear switching away from the enemy of the champion. This simplifies pvp and takes away from the "Skill" and "thought" in a battle. There is no way that removing these makes the game more skillfull or thoughtful.

Sure if box of sunlight lasted more than 30 seconds. Otherwise, maya p takes away f soldier, giving you get a chance to be stoned if you hit them. Those 30 seconds can be stalled by the champion fairly easily. If they were to buff box of sunlight, maya purple would be useless.

It takes half an hour to hunt hundreds if not thousands of the boxes. you can simply keep using them and like I said, you can use maya P but change gears before you hit them. Sorry but now cloaking champions are a problem too? It's starting to seem that you just want to nerf everything that manages to beat you.

It doesn't stop them changing gears, but it does avoid them, yes? It's because they have these utility skills that they can be nerfed. Other classes can use puppetring against full damage users, yet puppetring can be countered by an evil druid card. The undead property, if you didn't know already, stops one from being stone cursed, but changing your armor property to undead wouldn't necessarily work against champions because of asura strike.

It allows you to dodge some of their hits yet, but that isn't a counter to someone going full damage gears against you. I just don't see how it'll help to nerf champions in this way. You want everyone to just be able to brainlessly go full damage vs a champion without any risks whatsoever. I don't see the use of that. I also don't see why champions should be nerfed as they're not OP in any way , shape or form at this moment. Simply because they have pneuma/snap they can be nerfed? That really makes 0 sense. That's like saying well supernovices have safety wall so we can nerf tao gunka for them.... Also, yes I know about the undead property but it STILL comes down to the same thing. If you want to go full damage vs ANY class (including champion) then you should expect being countered by defensive gear. If you don't want to be stoned then wear regular gear and wear an fsoldier.

This "full damage" that you have been talking about is the Ship Captain hat, so please refer to that, as it is the only gear that allows someone go to full damage (not speaking about matk).

Ship captain hat, AOD hat, Loli hat, piamette hat (yes of course you speak about matk too as magic classes will be using stave crasher vs gtb users, they will be stoned by wearing their massive matk hats, with your change they'd be able to stave crasher with about 50% more damage to champs without risking any trouble).

Does this effect gameplay? sure it does, if you rely on those cards. Do champions need switching options? No. It's easier to just snap away or place pneuma on yourself (unless if you're thinking of using the stone curse to one shot). Does this change how other's fight against champions? Of course it does, at least it lets others have a chance to kill champions from their made mistakes.

It changes gameplay also if you do not 'rely' on those cards. because it simply removes options that you could've used in certain situations. Any class needs switching options to deal with different situations. If you do not use those options then you're not optimizing your damage output / survivability. And please don't act like other's don't have a chance vs champions right now. Almost any class can take down a champion right now and same goes for the other way around.

And how do they have a chance to win vs a champ 'based on their made mistakes' any easier with these changes compared to before? Because they can brainlessly go full damage without any worries? People should win fights based on their skill and the enemies' mistakes. Not by nerfing one class and granting the others a major gear advantage. Right now they both have access to the gear options and there's counters to each of the gears the other wears.

I've only seen 3 champions who commented on this forums topic, 2 saying that it wouldn't affect them at all

I'm sorry? I've only seen one person so far agree with disabling puppetring because he couldn't afford an fsoldier card. that's not a valid reason for disabling it. As for the ones agreeing with the suggestion to disable the rest.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Shadi

[Shadi]

Yeah i agree, champs don't specifically need the items to kill someone, but those items allow someone else to be punished for not being geared enough. Again, to be fair, what class punishes the champion class for going full damage? Probably another champion.

No it's more like the other way around. These items allow a lower geared champion to also win a fight at times. The items do not bring any bigger disadvantage to lower geared people than other gearpiece difference would make.

1. The bolts definitely deals more damage than mamo, i won't disagree with you with your statement, but the success of this class depends on what its fighting. Since this thread is about champions, doing mamo to a champ is a bit useless, since the champ will be using yggs for spamming asura, hp will be no issue from constant 30k damage. Well since the champ would be wearing rsx and ghost, he'd be dead in less than 5 mamo's so it would definitely do work. and that's vs usakoring not gtb. So no champion doesn't have a major advantage here.

2. Again, won't disagree, but when they fight a champ, its basically the same as fighting a bio, damage wouldn't matter as long as the champion is spamming asura, or kiting the sn by snap + tss. (Thanks to rayray's build, most don't even wear gr vs champs)

Same explanation as above but this time the champ is on tao ghost probably so just force him to gtb = 4 mamo's or so. also champs can try all they want to kite a SN, SN can simply hide in pneuma vs that and force the champion to get close. + SN can survive lex asura easier than 90% of the classes on the server atm. Again no major advantage for the champion.

4. Most notable stalkers are very patient and wait for them to for them to chase after them because the purpose for a stalker is to survive, not walk up to tank some damage. Again, getting back onto topic, if a stalker would bb a champion under pneuma, that would be suicide, intentionally or not.

Totally depends on the gear from the champ. Stalkers could use magnum break to hit them out of pneuma and ds. or use pushback evenom even. Once the champ uses rsx, he dies in 2-3BB's or so max.

5. This is probably the only class that everyone has difficulty fighting, except for bio, yet all of the damage can still be avoided by a champion by snaps + pneumas. Sure champions can run, just like sinx can backslide, stalkers can backslide too and Taekwon class can use running. But uhm goodluck beating the pally then. Also whitesmiths have no problems fighting pallies. LK's should have no problem either.

6. Yeah that's true fundamentally, but if you actually played a prof in game, it wouldn't work out as well. A prof would have to wear rsx, so it wouldn't be pushed out of safety wall and blinding mist, making it's hp ~120k+. If you wear a tao the max hp gets bumped up to a whopping 180k. They too have the skill magic coat so they have more reduct, but other than that, gtb really cripples them.

If they were to go up 1v1 against the champion, it would probably have no chance of winning, with gtb and pneuma.

Since you're constantly talking about 1vs1. It'll be impossible for a champion to beat a good prof in a 1 vs 1. With rsx + ghost armor, double immune and energy coat. Safety wall and blinding mist. There's no way the prof would die from a champion, and eventually will wear the champion down since profs can carry quite a lot of seeds vs the heavy berries champs have to use. Not to mention champs spend more berries than profs spend on seeds.

The champion class can simply kite all of those classes, and for stalkers, they can snap + magnum break to kill them. According to my in game experience, most classes have a disadvantage over champs.

Snap+ magnum break is not going to kill anyone, not to mention champs have quite a big cooldown after magnum break delay and animation wise. I don't see those classes have a disadvantage over champs at all.

As the above proves, the champion doesn't need crutches such as puppetring card, pest card, or owl baron card. I compared all of them to a champion in order to prove the "master race." If they can counter most classes that have both ranged and melee potential, they do have a major advantage.

I'm sorry the above doesn't seem to proof anything to me. I still haven't seen any of the real 'advantages' champs have compared to the classes I mentioned. I haven't seen a single reason why champion would be the 'master race' either. They are master race because they can 'kite' those classes ? Well lets see.

1: A good creator will have a lif, and has ranged magic + AD. Good luck kiting that cause creators still run at very high speed even with decrease agi on them.

2: Sure go ahead and try to kite a SN. Won't be much use though he can just pneuma up and force you to come close.

3: Kiting a stalker. I'm assuming you didn't mean that.

4: Kitiing a prof. He'll just stay in his mist/safety wall. Nothing ya can do.

5: Kite an LK. That's not going to happen with vital strike, spiral pierce and charge attack.

6: Kite an Pally, that's not gonna do much for you either.

I can go on. Everything depends on how someone uses their class. Champions do NOT have a major advantage over any of these classes.

1. The champions have, arguably, the best survivability.

2. As you said, they have really high mobility, so catching up to a backsliding sinx and escaping danger would be easy.

3. They can kite most classes with snap, pneuma, tss.

4. If their asura damage is reduced... it wouldn't really matter, it would still be a 2 shot kill to most classes.

5. Most some pinoys who play champ use seeds (i don't know why), so they don't really need to rely on berries.

6. They still carry 280 berries which is similar to how many seeds most classes can carry.

7. It is still possible to play champions properly, with the use of ping reducing programs (if one was addicted to champ).

1: Best survivability?? Paladins? LKs? SN's? SinX? Champs have a rather low HP modifier compared to most classes on here. They have mobility but they drop like flies by burst.

2: After snap there's a set cooldown, champ's can't asura for several seconds and well FO won't kill them too fast + forced to get them out of cloak first

3: Most classes have counters to being kited

4:It takes 8 skills to be casted for 2 asuras, plenty of time to ygg in between

5: Well they don't know how to use champion then xD;

6: Erm , most of the classes I mentioned can carry about 600 seeds.

7: They only reduce to a certain amount, not low enough to play it as effectively.

[Rayray]

Hang on, isn't paladin and SN have the best survivability atm? Especially SN with all the skills he has. Most champs barely hit 200k-250k hp, even with defensive skills, that really isn't much as my bio will have more hp even on dual fbh.

Limiting gear options for a class should not be an option unless it was extremely needed(like the thanatos effect on FO).

I can understand the hate on lex as not everyone will actually carry an anti-lex item. A decent player who pvps would bring something to counter every class he can think of though. If I am lazy, i'd just reflect and be done with it anyway, or just like before, I settle on using sinx card for that lex OR my ring of resonance(survived a lex asura simply because ring of resonance casted assumptio on me).

This is my opinion anyway, as I use Biochemist more than anything. I really am not that fussed with both of those cards in the champs' arsenal, because for me it makes the champ predictable. If he kept spamming asura on me for no reason at all, I am pretty sure he is waiting for that lex. A champ cannot use puppetring+tao on me, so he would have to use puppetring + gr which would make his HP so low that my bolts will do the job anyway or my thana mammonite will kill them in 4 spams.

Outside of Biochem, I use stalker, SN and STR Pally, all of which mirror my strategy as a bio which is to force gear switches.

On Stalker, I copy matyr, DS with immaterial arrows and using thana, force them to remove GR and skolls then use matyr(i will say this now, FAS sucks as a copied skill and I don't know why that has become a trend).

SN has so many stats and my SN hp is like 550k on just 99 vit. Bolts hit like a truck, mammonite does too.

STR Pally does decent damage and I would like to see a champ that will not die on reflect if he does asura me while I was spamming Shield Chain/Thana Holy Cross

[Desamor]

The master race on magic is Sage, it have 2 counter parts as Champion does, Go GTB? Stave....Go Reduct? Bolts...And due some combo it has (stone+fiberlock) it got nerfed! As Demi's suggestion it was a card(s) that got nerfed, Kingring (I think FBH too[on magic], not sure) can't be used on Sage due it massive outpost, You can literally whipe out even more if You fiberlock them.

So why if Sage got it removed from them why champions can't? You said it will remove gameplay if Puppet/Lex get removed? But isn't more less gameplay just wait untill lex/stone pop up and 1 KO them? So, if Sage do it well without kingring, I bet champions will too.

[Rayray]

The master race on magic is Sage, it have 2 counter parts as Champion does, Go GTB? Stave....Go Reduct? Bolts...And due some combo it has (stone+fiberlock) it got nerfed! As Demi's suggestion it was a card(s) that got nerfed, Kingring (I think FBH too[on magic], not sure) can't be used on Sage due it massive outpost, You can literally whipe out even more if You fiberlock them.

So why if Sage got it removed from them why champions can't? You said it will remove gameplay if Puppet/Lex get removed? But isn't more less gameplay just wait untill lex/stone pop up and 1 KO them? So, if Sage do it well without kingring, I bet champions will too.

Because there is no gear switch against a super high matk. Champ already got the card nerf regarding damage in the form of thanatos card. Even without kingrings and fbh, profs still deal high enough damage. Also, the removal of those were before the rings are introduced, with the inclusion of rings now, prof did not lose much matk as they did before.

[Desamor]

Because there is no gear switch against a super high matk. Champ already got the card nerf regarding damage in the form of thanatos card. Even without kingrings and fbh, profs still deal high enough damage. Also, the removal of those were before the rings are introduced, with the inclusion of rings now, prof did not lose much matk as they did before.

Firering, Aquaring, Leafring, those card reduce the damage of element, also there is vote helmets that reduce damage aswell, so there is gear switch against it and yet got nerfed, and Your own answer can be reused, think about it, Champions do enough damage w/o Puppet/Barron, and with the ring they do even more, since the Sage did lost MATK but the champion didn't.

And here is the problem, when You swap to counter one part the other come with more damage and that is the point (I think) that Demi is trying to show.

And thanatos got nerfed for the same reason as Demi saying in this suggestion, it lead You limited to resist the attacks, You go thanatos -> skoll -> asura/tss rape (before it nerf). Same as this lex/stone, devs to try to survive-> asura/tss, and so on.

Or You could simply go low as them and use OL >D! (but this will work only in 50% since people will begin to TSS)

[Rayray]

Firering, Aquaring, Leafring, those card reduce the damage of element, also there is vote helmets that reduce damage aswell, so there is gear switch against it and yet got nerfed, and Your own answer can be reused, think about it, Champions do enough damage w/o Puppet/Barron, and with the ring they do even more, since the Sage did lost MATK but the champion didn't.

And here is the problem, when You swap to counter one part the other come with more damage and that is the point (I think) that Demi is trying to show.

And thanatos got nerfed for the same reason as Demi saying in this suggestion, it lead You limited to resist the attacks, You go thanatos -> skoll -> asura/tss rape (before it nerf). Same as this lex/stone, devs to try to survive-> asura/tss, and so on.

Or You could simply go low as them and use OL >D! (but this will work only in 50% since people will begin to TSS)

You mention firering and the likes, those work but it would only work the second time you got hit, since you do not know the element the prof might be using. Hence, you still die on the first one and it is so easy to just switch bolts when needed. Even heavens drive hurts with that huge matk or you can just simply stave on(because your matk is that huge). The massive gain of matk from kingrings and fbh is huge as I remember it.

And thanatos is different than the lex/stone as the latter is chance based. Have you ever seen the damage thanatos TSS did back then? Also, you guys make it seem so hard to switch to an fsoldier headgear, and puppetring does not even work against non-physical skills.

We are not saying that champs lose damage the moment we ban this cards, no. This suggestion will make fighting a champion a bit brainless because you never need to switch gears.

I will never agree on banning puppetring as it has a huge counter. If the chance of lex seems high to you guys, I could agree on lowering the chance of it actually hitting off. But again, would need tests as I already do not see it happen much when I was pvping against lex champs.

[ThePerfectHit]

GO DESI, GO!

[Shadi]

Firering, Aquaring, Leafring, those card reduce the damage of element, also there is vote helmets that reduce damage aswell, so there is gear switch against it and yet got nerfed, and Your own answer can be reused, think about it, Champions do enough damage w/o Puppet/Barron, and with the ring they do even more, since the Sage did lost MATK but the champion didn't.

And here is the problem, when You swap to counter one part the other come with more damage and that is the point (I think) that Demi is trying to show.

Here's the difference. Asura is always neutral. The bolts could be any of the 3 elements (4 if you count soul strike). It was impossible to gear against and the matk had gotten out of hand. to a point that equipping gtb would get yourself killed in 2-3 stave crashers. My professor was able to pull off 200 up to 450k bolts without lex.

This whole topic isn't about champions doing enough damage or dealing enough damage without them. it's about completely removing any counters a champion can have to someone going full damage. It's about giving all classes a major boost vs the champion class by leaving a champion defenseless against the full damage gear that we have on this server.

That is how gear switching works. You can not expect to equip a single item and be able to withstand everything because of it. No everything has it's counters including the resist cards, including lex, including stone curse. I do not agree with simplifying pvp further by removing those gear options and allowing people to always wear a full damage set vs champion without consequences and without any thought involved.

And thanatos got nerfed for the same reason as Demi saying in this suggestion, it lead You limited to resist the attacks, You go thanatos -> skoll -> asura/tss rape (before it nerf). Same as this lex/stone, devs to try to survive-> asura/tss, and so on.

Or You could simply go low as them and use OL >D! (but this will work only in 50% since people will begin to TSS)

The thanatos was nerfed because there was no way to protect yourself from thanatos fo + asura when skolls were equipped. Profs were nerved because there was no way to protect yourself from their way too high matk, Lex and stone however, there's plenty of ways to protect yourself from those or dealing with them effectively as proven in this topic. so I can not see this as the same thing.

Here's another thing you could do. Use gears instead of tao cards to give you HP, wear for example, GR + OL in your armor. double raydric, skull aura. What does this do ? Champ's have no way to apply a thanatos effect. without tao gunka you'll be stacking on physical armor. This will reduce their FO damage unless they use incant card in their weapon, which on it's own turn would lower their asura damage again. Changing to things such as these would force the champion to constantly having to switch weapons if he even wants to utilize his FO to the slightest bit. There's so many options to use, so many things you can equip to counter stone or lex. People just have to look into the options and learn how to use them.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Shadi

[adam-]

Firering, Aquaring, Leafring, those card reduce the damage of element, also there is vote helmets that reduce damage aswell, so there is gear switch against it and yet got nerfed, and Your own answer can be reused, think about it, Champions do enough damage w/o Puppet/Barron, and with the ring they do even more, since the Sage did lost MATK but the champion didn't.

And here is the problem, when You swap to counter one part the other come with more damage and that is the point (I think) that Demi is trying to show.

And thanatos got nerfed for the same reason as Demi saying in this suggestion, it lead You limited to resist the attacks, You go thanatos -> skoll -> asura/tss rape (before it nerf). Same as this lex/stone, devs to try to survive-> asura/tss, and so on.

Or You could simply go low as them and use OL >D! (but this will work only in 50% since people will begin to TSS)

u forgot dustiness ;)

[arch]

No thanks, fighting as and fighting vs champion is a lot more complicated now as it would be when you remove these options. All you'd have to go vs a champion is go full damage gear, with AoD or Ship captain. You'd remove a big part of the champ's gear switching and you'd remove ALL gear switching away from the enemy of the champion. This simplifies pvp and takes away from the "Skill" and "thought" in a battle. There is no way that removing these makes the game more skillfull or thoughtful.

• The problem with AoD is that you can get frozen, unlike ship captain hat. (AoD is only ever useful for WS who doesnt even trigger on hit effect such as stone curse).
• As i said, the common gear of fighting champions are already GR, Tao, x2 Rays, so there is very little gear switching involved when going up against a champion.
• The glass cannon build still kills some people even with those gears, and the champion has to gear switch into x2 hallows and tanee + fbh.
• You're too focused on the Gear switching aspect and seem too inexperienced with the gameplay.
• Not everyone has enough tokens for extra gear, so they have to work with what they have, that just means they have to outsmart those champions. This applies to champions as well, if they don't have stone curse or lex aeterna, they just have to outsmart their opponents by utilizing their skills to their full potential.

It takes half an hour to hunt hundreds if not thousands of the boxes. you can simply keep using them and like I said, you can use maya P but change gears before you hit them. Sorry but now cloaking champions are a problem too? It's starting to seem that you just want to nerf everything that manages to beat you.

I was implying that one would only have a limited amount of box of sunlights in an inventory (since their weight is 20) and only brought that up because it was a card combo that had good synergy together. It's a good idea right?

It allows you to dodge some of their hits yet, but that isn't a counter to someone going full damage gears against you. I just don't see how it'll help to nerf champions in this way. You want everyone to just be able to brainlessly go full damage vs a champion without any risks whatsoever. I don't see the use of that. I also don't see why champions should be nerfed as they're not OP in any way , shape or form at this moment. Simply because they have pneuma/snap they can be nerfed? That really makes 0 sense. That's like saying well supernovices have safety wall so we can nerf tao gunka for them.... Also, yes I know about the undead property but it STILL comes down to the same thing. If you want to go full damage vs ANY class (including champion) then you should expect being countered by defensive gear. If you don't want to be stoned then wear regular gear and wear an fsoldier.

Snipers are a good example for this.

• If a sniper uses ship captain hat against an lk who uses puppetring, is one stone curse going to kill him? Most likely not. Even still, snipers can just use evil druid and full damage against lks. The fight is "brainless" and takes no skill.
• If a sniper uses ship captain hat (with this suggestion implemented), will the fight be brainless because there's no gear switching? or because the sniper is going full damage? No, if the sniper wants to win, he'll have to skid trap, arrow shower that skid trap under the champ (under the pneuma), and use Fas or DS. This is especially harder if the champ doesn't wear gr, since every time the sniper wants to arrow shower the trap, he'll have to switch arrow properties as well. (immaterial arrows for traps)
• The entire point of this suggestion was that Champs do not need crutches such as lex aeterna or stone curse, they are good enough themselves with their skill layout.

It changes gameplay also if you do not 'rely' on those cards. because it simply removes options that you could've used in certain situations. Any class needs switching options to deal with different situations. If you do not use those options then you're not optimizing your damage output / survivability. And please don't act like other's don't have a chance vs champions right now. Almost any class can take down a champion right now and same goes for the other way around.

• Some classes are more reliant to gear switching because their skills don't give them survivability, like the sniper and bio.
• I would say, Champions who use cards such as puppetring, pest, and owl baron are opportunists. They take advantage of situations to 1 shot their opponents, when they could have easily avoided damage.
• That's hard to believe, since i have personal experience in winning the pvp ladder 6 times in a row with the champion class.

I've only seen 3 champions who commented on this forums topic, 2 saying that it wouldn't affect them at all

I'm sorry? I've only seen one person so far agree with disabling puppetring because he couldn't afford an fsoldier card. that's not a valid reason for disabling it. As for the ones agreeing with the suggestion to disable the rest.

I didn't say they +1'd anything, they just simply felt indifferent to the outcome of this suggestion.

No it's more like the other way around. These items allow a lower geared champion to also win a fight at times. The items do not bring any bigger disadvantage to lower geared people than other gearpiece difference would make.

• Sure stone curse and lex help ungeared players out at times, but at the same time, i've seen ungeared champions dominate others in fights by simply outmatching them (Boyog).
• Champ is one of the classes that you can be ungeared for (fknight set + str gaunts), and still dominate in fights. I've had personal experience with that.

[arch]

Off Topic:

Well since the champ would be wearing rsx and ghost, he'd be dead in less than 5 mamo's so it would definitely do work. and that's vs usakoring not gtb. So no champion doesn't have a major advantage here.

Same explanation as above but this time the champ is on tao ghost probably so just force him to gtb = 4 mamo's or so. also champs can try all they want to kite a SN, SN can simply hide in pneuma vs that and force the champion to get close. + SN can survive lex asura easier than 90% of the classes on the server atm. Again no major advantage for the champion.Totally depends on the gear from the champ. Stalkers could use magnum break to hit them out of pneuma and ds. or use pushback evenom even. Once the champ uses rsx, he dies in 2-3BB's or so max.

• Just to sum it all up, Champions don't have a major advantage over super novices or biochemists, but neither do they.
• Stalkers are just bad against champions. (champions have 210k+ HP and a stalker's damage with BB is 17k per BB)

Since you're constantly talking about 1vs1. It'll be impossible for a champion to beat a good prof in a 1 vs 1. With rsx + ghost armor, double immune and energy coat. Safety wall and blinding mist. There's no way the prof would die from a champion, and eventually will wear the champion down since profs can carry quite a lot of seeds vs the heavy berries champs have to use. Not to mention champs spend more berries than profs spend on seeds.

In this case, i've never fought against a good prof... It's easy to counter safety wall, just use pneuma over their head and they cant cast safety wall over a 3x3 area. They would also have to wear RSX so they wouldn't be pushed out of the blinding mist + safety wall and they would have only 120k HP. I would say that theres no way a prof could kill a prepared champion, with gtb and pneuma. If the prof used magnetic field, he would have died easily.

Snap+ magnum break is not going to kill anyone, not to mention champs have quite a big cooldown after magnum break delay and animation wise. I don't see those classes have a disadvantage over champs at all. I'm sorry the above doesn't seem to proof anything to me. I still haven't seen any of the real 'advantages' champs have compared to the classes I mentioned. I haven't seen a single reason why champion would be the 'master race' either. They are master race because they can 'kite' those classes ? Well lets see.

1: A good creator will have a lif, and has ranged magic + AD. Good luck kiting that cause creators still run at very high speed even with decrease agi on them.

2: Sure go ahead and try to kite a SN. Won't be much use though he can just pneuma up and force you to come close.

3: Kiting a stalker. I'm assuming you didn't mean that.

4: Kitiing a prof. He'll just stay in his mist/safety wall. Nothing ya can do.

5: Kite an LK. That's not going to happen with vital strike, spiral pierce and charge attack.

6: Kite an Pally, that's not gonna do much for you either.

Snap + Magnum break is just used to push people away from pneuma or to take stalkers out of their cloaking.

1. That's what snap + pneuma and gtb is for, and snap can keep up with with a prof's urgent call

2. Snap + magnum break is useful for pneuma users.

3. Yeah, but catching up with anyone trying to kite you (stalker) if ez pz.

4. Raging palm strike to push him out. Pneuma over his head and spam the asura button. (if you miss asura due to blinding mist, it won't take out zen + fury)

5. It worked out pretty well for me in fild + pvp room

6. better than nothing :th_ok:

1: Best survivability?? Paladins? LKs? SN's? SinX? Champs have a rather low HP modifier compared to most classes on here. They have mobility but they drop like flies by burst.

2: After snap there's a set cooldown, champ's can't asura for several seconds and well FO won't kill them too fast + forced to get them out of cloak first

3: Most classes have counters to being kited

4:It takes 8 skills to be casted for 2 asuras, plenty of time to ygg in between

5: Well they don't know how to use champion then xD;

6: Erm , most of the classes I mentioned can carry about 600 seeds.

7: They only reduce to a certain amount, not low enough to play it as effectively.

1. From experience, SN's, LK's and SinX's die by champion, having high hp doesn't mean they have more survivability. Paladins do have survivability, but are vulnerable to classes that the champs can beat.

2. Don't underestimate tss lol, my champion did an average of 12k per stack.

3. Champs can ruwatch and then snap in + out or snap + magnum break, then kite some more, if that's what you're thinking.

4. It's all about speed asura or being unpredictable.

5. I was also suprised. It's also hard to determine when they use seeds because they removed the yellow indicator when seeds are used.

6. Yeah, most str based classes.

7. It's helped my friend from Japan, which is half way around the world from the server. (and she's better than me)

Hang on, isn't paladin and SN have the best survivability atm? Especially SN with all the skills he has. Most champs barely hit 200k-250k hp, even with defensive skills, that really isn't much as my bio will have more hp even on dual fbh.

If you think of GvG, SN's and Pallies can't really escape sticky situations, but if you're talking about tanks, then yeah, Super Novices and Pallies are great tanks.

[Shadi]

• The problem with AoD is that you can get frozen, unlike ship captain hat. (AoD is only ever useful for WS who doesnt even trigger on hit effect such as stone curse).
• As i said, the common gear of fighting champions are already GR, Tao, x2 Rays, so there is very little gear switching involved when going up against a champion.
• The glass cannon build still kills some people even with those gears, and the champion has to gear switch into x2 hallows and tanee + fbh.
• You're too focused on the Gear switching aspect and seem too inexperienced with the gameplay.
• Not everyone has enough tokens for extra gear, so they have to work with what they have, that just means they have to outsmart those champions. This applies to champions as well, if they don't have stone curse or lex aeterna, they just have to outsmart their opponents by utilizing their skills to their full potential.

1:Exactly, going full damage has it's counters as for WS, you can get frozen, but ship captain doesn't work for them so aod is their damage hat. Also stone curse effect is triggered with CT. Reflect isn't but stone curse is.

2: Yes that's the common gear but as explained many times already there's a ton of switching involved if you want to do it right which will all disappear if you disable these for champions, you'll have a sinx cloak for example, you'll have a GR/OL armor as well, you'll have different aura if you don't default skull aura. You'll have different manteaus such as deviling ones as well, You should be switching to ring of ressonance during the fight as well and get the assumptio, You got a gtb or maya or alice shield, a double reflect armor and more. This all will no longer be necessary if you nerf this, people can just go double ray, ghost high risk, shipcaptain hat, deal massive amounts of damage while being pretty much safe for everything. The fact that you think there's little gear switching is involved is the reason why you think Lex/stone curse is OP. You don't use any of it's counters.

3: You've just proven a point. All classes will be able to go full damage, but if a champ wants to go full damage they have to give up half their HP. Seems fair? Not really no. That's why there's other counters vs other classes going full damage. There's no reason to remove those counters.

4: You're basing this on absolutely nothing, no elaboration whatsoever. This entire suggestion is about gears, and thus gear options should be discussed. You're just attempting to change focus away from that because you want it nerfed due to not being able to deal with it.

5: Outsmarting your enemy is something you do with gearswapping way more often than with skill use, any regular pvp'er knows what any other class can do. Outsmarting just on skill usage won't happen often. Sure you can have some good unexpected moves such an pneuma-ing behind a target and pps'ing them into the pneuma so they can't safety wall themselves. However the real outsmarting is done by changing gears on the right moment and catching your enemy off guard.

I was implying that one would only have a limited amount of box of sunlights in an inventory (since their weight is 20) and only brought that up because it was a card combo that had good synergy together. It's a good idea right?

It's a good combo yes, but like everything else it has it's counters :)

Snipers are a good example for this.

• If a sniper uses ship captain hat against an lk who uses puppetring, is one stone curse going to kill him? Most likely not. Even still, snipers can just use evil druid and full damage against lks. The fight is "brainless" and takes no skill.
• If a sniper uses ship captain hat (with this suggestion implemented), will the fight be brainless because there's no gear switching? or because the sniper is going full damage? No, if the sniper wants to win, he'll have to skid trap, arrow shower that skid trap under the champ (under the pneuma), and use Fas or DS. This is especially harder if the champ doesn't wear gr, since every time the sniper wants to arrow shower the trap, he'll have to switch arrow properties as well. (immaterial arrows for traps)
• The entire point of this suggestion was that Champs do not need crutches such as lex aeterna or stone curse, they are good enough themselves with their skill layout.

• If the LK is fast enough he can kill the sniper during stone curse, if not then he at least can get close , and by changing to the stone curse armor he'd force the sniper into his ED armor. That's what gearswapping is about, you adapt your gears based on the enemy and force them to change gears as well, if the sniper switches to ED his HP would lower, as he'd obviously default double tao vs an LK.
• If this is implemented all snipers have to do is equip one gear set and dish out damage. Sure they use their traps? So? it'll still be a fight without any gear swapping whatsoever just because you've just boosted all classes vs only one specific class. There's no balance in that. Why would snipers be allowed to do xx% more damage by using Capt. hat vs a champ, but a champ can't do the same vs a sniper cause he'd get stoned within no time. Makes 0 sense whatsoever.
• Any class is good enough with the skillset that they have or have gotten through our custom gear. This is not a reason to buff or nerf a class. You buff or nerf a class once it's imbalanced beyond control , you don't nerf a class because the class "Can also be good without these cards"

• Some classes are more reliant to gear switching because their skills don't give them survivability, like the sniper and bio.
• I would say, Champions who use cards such as puppetring, pest, and owl baron are opportunists. They take advantage of situations to 1 shot their opponents, when they could have easily avoided damage.
• That's hard to believe, since i have personal experience in winning the pvp ladder 6 times in a row with the champion class.

• This is true, yet a big part of gear swapping not about the class you are playing, but the class the enemy is playing and the gear the enemy is using. You have a standard set but you want to be able to respond to what your enemy does. Not simply wear 1 set all the time.
• They are partly opportunists, they take the chances (which already are fairly low) of getting a lex or stone off and hope that they don't play vs someone that knows how to deal with those things. But another part of them is not an oppertunist that part is simply responding to what the enemy is doing. If they go full damage then you know how to counter it.
• So just because you won the ladder a few times you say the other classes can't take down champions? I'd recommend you to pvp in for_fild instead of the pvp arena. the majority of the good pvpers pvp there instead of in the arena. Besides that winning ladder a few times on a certain class proves nothing. 1: we don't know what classes you fought 2: We don't know who played those classes 3: We don't know any of the situations pvp was in, (perhaps party/gang related) etc.

• Sure stone curse and lex help ungeared players out at times, but at the same time, i've seen ungeared champions dominate others in fights by simply outmatching them (Boyog).
• Champ is one of the classes that you can be ungeared for (fknight set + str gaunts), and still dominate in fights. I've had personal experience with that.

Boyog is not an ungeared champ, he basically has full gear. he also is known for his usage of gospel and provoke. So It's kind of an awkward example to make, but yes, some lowergeared champions can put up a fight vs geared players. But same goes for professors, same goes for supernovices, same goes for LKs. The set that you wear doesn't mean half as much as the cards that you use in it. So why take their card options away and screw over lower geared people even more?

Edited December 4, 2014 by Shadi

[forsakenlelouch]

i agree to ban owl baron because it hurts but i dont agree on banning puppetring

#MoreNerf

Edited December 5, 2014 by forsakenlelouch