Skills That Would Need Server Side Delays.

[Forum~]

It's a 40% chance so it fails more than it actually succeeds. It's all statistics and nothing influences the success rate. Also there's a ton of cards that have effects that don't do anything on a high rate environment like ours. So about 1 out of 2-3 cards is useless as well. So feel free to counter argue but those are the facts.

Tarot is nearly casted as fast as you can spam it. It doesn't matter that it fails more than it succeeds. The fact of the matter is that even when we consider the successes and failures combined, it's still too fast. I'm sure everyone knows how fast Tarot is spammed but I'm posting a video anyway since it's a good reference for this thread.

And no, it's not a ton that are useless on our high-rate environment. In fact, majority of them are very relevant. I will break them down here so others and yourself can take a look at them.

The Fool: Reduces SP to 0. Irrelevant. (Edit)

The Magician: Halves MATK for 30 s. Relevant.

The High Priestess: Complete dispel. RELEVANT.

The Chariot: 1000 DMG and breaks random equipment. Relevant.

Strength: Halves ATK for 30 s. Relevant.

The Lovers: Warps target and heals 2000. Irrelevant.

Wheel of Fortune: Casts two cards. Relevant.

The Hanged Man: Frozen, petrified, stopped. Relevant.

The Devil: 6666 DMG, halves MATK and ATK for 30 s, casts curse. Relevant.

Death: Cursed, coma, poisoned. RELEVANT.

The Tower: 4444 DMG. Irrelevant.

The Star: Stunned for 5 s. Irrelevant.

The Sun: Drops ATK, MATK, DEF, Hit, Flee by 20% for 30 s. Relevant.

Temperance: Chaos 30 s. Irrelevant. (Edit)

I'm counting 10/14 cards which is far more than what you're seeing. Don't forget that Death followed by any of the cards that do any sort of damage is a game ender. The relevancy is to my opinion but you can try to argue its irrelevancy if you wish.

Burst damage is one big amount of damage that's applied quickly and hard to ygg through. Arrow vulcan at this current time is not 'burst damage' it can only do 3-4 in a row. All counted and stacked seperately, extremely easy to ygg through. If it's really supposed to be burst (and it is) either the damage has to get highered a lot or the spamrate has to be improved. Right now you can not consider it burst because it's slow and low to medium damage.

So our definitions differ here. To me, SB and AV are burst skills. Skills like AD, CT, and FAS are non-burst skills. To me, burst means there is delay after successive casts. The non-bursts can be consistently spammed and have a pattern in which ygging is easy.

Either way there's a specific topic regarding tarot card so I suggest we keep that discussion to that topic. Tarot card is not one of the skills highly abused with third party programs so it's better to keep that skill's discussion in the other topic.

It may not be abused with 3rd-party programs but it is one of the skills that I and many others believe there should be delay on. That's exactly what this suggestion thread is trying to address so I'd consider it on-topic.

If you would not have been lazy and would've read the posts you would've had your answer already. To repeat it for you. The person in question said that tarot card was supposed to be disabled in WoE. He stated it as a fact, thus the official WoE restrictions were brought up which show nothing about this skill being disabled.(unlike a few other skills).

You're misinterpreting my point. To re-quote, "No idea where you got this from but tarot has always been enabled in WoE. On official servers as well." You're using this as a rational for keeping Tarot in WoE. But just because it's always been enabled in WoE on official servers doesn't mean it should reflect how it is on our server. PvP mechanics are completely different between low and high rates. If you're going to be using that as part of your argument, we can push it to the extreme and argue things like bow being two-handed (just like it's on official servers) or why have 2-slotted armors (official servers don't have that), etc.

"We should keep things the way they are because they've always been that way" is what I'm getting from you in this portion of your post. What kind of reasoning is that?

I rather have a passive approach in which legit players are still able to use the classes that they like instead of having legit players be hit by hard delays due to people not able to play fair. Yes making sure cheaters get punished is important but it's not as important as keeping class balance as good as it is. You can not start nerfing classes to the ground just because people use third party programs to make them stronger than they normally are. The only good approach to the cheaters is by catching them and getting rid of them. Our opinions might differ here but I prefer playing against cheaters on my own none broken class than having my class get broken because some people can't behave. Again, adding server-sided delays does not only effect cheaters. Let this be clear it'll be direct nerfs to the CLASS and EVERYONE will feel them, including legit players.

This is where our priorities differ I guess. I think we should strike down cheaters where they stand. I don't think I will be able to bring you to see my preference for my position. At least if cheaters were gone, everyone would be on a fair level.

@ the videos: The snipers spam is pretty fast, even though the video doesn't show it as much I know that this sniper spams faster than normal (So either macro keyboard/mouse or bn) However your own recording has really slow spam. I have quite a bit higher ping than you but I spam a lot faster than you did in your video.

This is what confuses me. How do we establish standards for spam rates? Isn't it generally accepted that those who have better connections will have smoother, faster spams? How are you spamming faster than I am with having higher ping? Don't say my hardware is bad because my computer is basically brand new and RO isn't a hardware-intensive game anyway.

@Forum~ that first video definitely is not legit. His DS looks the same as my acid bomb spam. I would report that honestly.

I know. It's like he thinks I'm stupid or something. I've seen thousands of DS spams in my years on this server. You can't fool my eyes. Edited July 20, 2014 by Forum~

[Igopewpew]

And no, it's not a ton that are useless on our high-rate environment. In fact, majority of them are very relevant. I will break them down here so others and yourself can take a look at them.

The Fool: Reduces SP to 0. Irrelevant, does nothing with our ygg spammage.
The Magician: Halves MATK for 30 s. Relevant.
The High Priestess: Complete dispel. RELEVANT.
The Chariot: 1000 DMG and breaks random equipment. Hardly Relevant, everyone has fcp on here +shields and boots and manteau were fully made indestructable and 1k dmg is nothing.
Strength: Halves ATK for 30 s. Relevant.
The Lovers: Warps target and heals 2000. Irrelevant.
Wheel of Fortune: Casts two cards. Relevant.
The Hanged Man: Frozen, petrified, stopped. Relevant. (Remind yourself that this is either frozen or petrified or stopped. 2 of whom everyone is immune to 90% of the time.)
The Devil: 6666 DMG, halves MATK and ATK for 30 s, casts curse. Relevant.
Death: Cursed, coma, poisoned. RELEVANT.
The Tower: 4444 DMG. Irrelevant.
The Star: Stunned for 5 s. Irrelevant.
The Sun: Drops ATK, MATK, DEF, Hit, Flee by 20% for 30 s. Relevant. Temperance

Leave the target in chaos for 30 seconds Irrelevant.

Changed/added some to the above and added the one you missed. Combining everything you have about 8 things that in most cases are useless on our server out of the 16 possible things to happen. So you have a 40% succesrate with a 50% usefulnes. So that's about 20% of all the spam is actually doing something. I find that decent enough and don't see a reason to make it any worse.

So our definitions differ here. To me, SB and AV are burst skills. Skills like AD, CT, and FAS are non-burst skills. To me, burst means there is delay after successive casts.

Well if you want to call AV a burst skill then it's a very slow and weak one at it. Because the damage is not applied in one big burst but in 3 following hits that also aren't applied very fast and the damage is rather low as well.

It may not be abused with 3rd-party programs but it is one of the skills that I and many others believe there should be delay on. That's exactly what this suggestion thread is trying to address so I'd consider it on-topic.

This topic was made to make a list on skills that are frequently abused by third party programs so if the majority of the people would agree that those specific skills could get a hard delay. (Please read Genesis' post in the other suggestion regarding this).

You're misinterpreting my point. To re-quote, "No idea where you got this from but tarot has always been enabled in WoE. On official servers as well." You're using this as a rational for keeping Tarot in WoE. But just because it's always been enabled in WoE in official servers doesn't mean it should reflect how it is on our server. PvP mechanics are completely different between low and high rates. If you're going to be using that, we can push it to the extreme and argue things like bow being two-handed (just like it's on official servers) or why have 2-slotted armors (official servers don't have that), etc.

"We should keep things the way they are because they've always been that way" is what I'm getting in this portion of your post. What kind of reasoning is that?

I'm not saying it's this way so it should stay this way. If you read the post the guy's post it says that tarot should not have been enabled in woe in the first place. Which is false, because by DEFAULT it is enabled. That's what I'm trying to explain and did explain about 3 times now.

This is what confuses me. How do we establish standards for spam rates? Isn't it generally accepted that those who have better connections will have smoother, faster spams? Don't say my hardware is bad because my computer is basically brand new and RO isn't a hardware-intensive game anyway.

It might sound weird but some people are just faster than others as well. I don't know why but my DS spam is quite a bit faster than yours even though I have slightly higher ping than you do. I highly doubt it has anything to do with hardware really as input wise RO could work just as fast on a pentium 4 as it does on the current i7 :P

This is where our priorities differ I guess. I think we should strike down cheaters where they stand. I don't think I will be able to bring you to see my preference for my position.

Don't get me wrong I'm fully up for striking down cheaters. But only the cheaters and not strike down the legit players as well while we're at it. Cause that's what the hard delays would do. Something I would recommend is letting the GMs (or certain GMs) ban based on a suspicion (of course with some proof like a video). Then after the ban a player can file a ticket if he thinks the ban is unfair and the gms can discuss the case + if needed request proof of gaming gear. If the gms agree with each other on the spam being too fast to be manual and the player can't proof ownership of gaming gear then the ban stays. If the gms disagree with each other on the ban the admins (Genesis/Vera) will have the decision on whether to keep the ban or not. If the player is able to supply proof of ownership of the gamer gear then the account will be unbanned. This is also an active method which does not punish the legit players. I of course understand that GMs can't always be online but that's when random checks during random woe's or random checks at for fild come in. That way cheaters will also think twice before using it in any major events etc. What I'm saying is I think it should be made easier for GMs to ban suspected cheaters and unban them later if proven wrong instead of not banning them or discussing the case for a long time first before anything is done.

[jameslamela]

disagree... all classes are fine the way they are now. you just need some tactics to counter them "like what you always telling everyone"... right?

[zencis]

I didn't bring up the official servers to compare FRO to it. You claimed that tarot card is not supposed to work in woe. You stated it as a fact. What I did was proof that that 'fact' was wrong as it's not disabled in any way shape or form on the original server so you can't state that the skill is supposed to be disabled in woe. If you want to argue rather it should be disabled (in your opinion, not as a fact) then you should make a suggestion topic as it has nothing to do with this one. It would make the class pretty much completely useless for woe (other than slowgrace/apple of idun) if it'd be disabled for woe. I don't care how stupid your other 'very well balanced mid and high rate servers' are. Breaking a class in woe does not make it balanced.

I understand your opinion and whatever it is you're fighting for but in my opinion and from my years of experience with the game, I do believe that it is a fact. It is a fact for a high rate server of course. I've seen what happens to the before and afters of skill nerfs and this one ain't so bad. Seriously? dancers being USELESS IN WOE without tarot? Lemme tell you the classes that I do think are useless in woe: Star gladiators, Priests, Ninja. So don't talk to me about BALANCE as you surely don't know a thing about it. I'm no longer gonna explain myself to you with your closed mind set.

1. WAT. I see absolutely no reason for a skill like tarot to be banned in WoE.

2. Seems fine, if you use a character that has around 250-300k hp you will think that getting hit by SB will kill you. But as I tested before against a sinx who uses sb with a weird spam(he's banned now), dying to SB in an instant when you are using a pally with WTF HP seems overboard. With that said, SB is a good candidate as 3rd party software users push its already high damage to ridiculous amounts.

3. WAT. same reaction with your tarot comment dude.

For now, you may not see it from my point of view but when a single guild finds a legitimate way to exploit these OP skills in woe, don't tell me I didn't warn you. I've actually seen 1 or 2 guilds unlocking the secrets but as I see it, they're only in step 1.

Whatever we do, there's always gonna be cheaters/exploiters in every mmo. We can only adapt.

Edited July 19, 2014 by zencis

[jameslamela]

I understand your opinion and whatever it is you're fighting for but in my opinion and from my years of experience with the game, I do believe that it is a fact. It is a fact for a high rate server of course. I've seen what happens to the before and afters of skill nerfs and this one ain't so bad. Seriously? dancers being USELESS IN WOE without tarot? Lemme tell you the classes that I do think are useless in woe: Star gladiators, Priests, Ninja. So don't talk to me about BALANCE as you surely don't know a thing about it. I'm no longer gonna explain myself to you with your closed mind set.

include the gunslingers as well.. hehehe!

[Forum~]

disagree... all classes are fine the way they are now. you just need some tactics to counter them "like what you always telling everyone"... right?

Clearly you don't PvP enough because it is a major issue when cheaters are running around doing as they please. Don't tell me to change my tactics when I'm playing fair. Why should I accommodate for their decision to use 3rd-party programs? This thread is to address this very issue.

Warning: Some back-of-the-envelope math. Discretion is advised.

Changed/added some to the above and added the one you missed. Combining everything you have about 8 things that in most cases are useless on our server out of the 16 possible things to happen. So you have a 40% succesrate with a 50% usefulnes. So that's about 20% of all the spam is actually doing something. I find that decent enough and don't see a reason to make it any worse.

I did forget Temperance (made edit above). You countered that The Fool, The Chariot, The Hanged Man are irrelevant. In hindsight, I agree with your view on The Fool. However, to me, The Chariot and The Hanged Man are still valid cards. The Chariot because not everyone gets FCP all the time (many use RSX and helmet is still breakable). The Hanged Man because with Fsoldier being more expensive than ever, not everyone has access to it. I've stone cursed many players on for_fild01 as of recently on my reduct Professor and I can attest that immunity to stone curse is rarer than one might think. Also, The Chariot has this ability to make you rooted to your cell and unable to move which is debilitating.

So between our opinions, for me, there are 9/14 and to you, 8/14 (in relevancy), which is more or less the same thing. And now with 40% success chance by nature of the skill, nearly ~20% of tarot casts will be useful, as you have previously stated. However, 20% relevant casts at speeds of ~1 tarot/second (assuming my video is a representative sample of tarot casts) is much too fast.

Debuffs last a full 30 seconds in which during that time, one can cast on average of another 30 tarot cards. More likely than not, you'll have re-casted the debuff (since there are 3/14 cards that debuff ATK/MATK) meaning the timer will have resetted for another 30 seconds. I reckon you can perpetually keep a player under debuff status until one of you gets killed.

Now let's not forget how ridiculous tarot is even when the player is forced to use GTB. Dispel goes right through. You can still get rooted to your cell. Debuffs still halve your attack.

tl;dr: In short, with 20% relevant casts at 1 tarot/second, it is expected that you will cast a relevant tarot once every 5 seconds. Among those relevant casts (8/14), 3/8 of them cause debuffs to MATK/ATK meaning on order of magnitude, nearly every 10 seconds some sort of debuff will be recasted on you, with the debuff lasting 30 seconds (perpetual debuff state). This is quite unfair once you also tack on dispel tarot, coma tarot, and getting rooted.

super tl;dr: I can probably kill you with casting Tarot alone.

Well if you want to call AV a burst skill then it's a very slow and weak one at it. Because the damage is not applied in one big burst but in 3 following hits that also aren't applied very fast and the damage is rather low as well.

It's not slow or weak if you're forced to wear GTB. I haven't tested clown/gypsy myself recently but I think their damage swells between 10-12k right? So, at averages of 3 AV in a spam, that's (3 AVs * 9 hits * 10-12k damage) = 270-324k damage. That's basically equal or greater than the full HP of nearly every class in the game, with exceptions to LK and Paladin. And that's just with 3 AVs. People claim to do 4 as well which is utterly ridiculous. Now consider this damage and also tarot's ability to still work (most of the cards) DESPITE wearing GTB. Are you seeing why many people are calling foul on this skill?

I'm not saying it's this way so it should stay this way. If you read the post the guy's post it says that tarot should not have been enabled in woe in the first place. Which is false, because by DEFAULT it is enabled. That's what I'm trying to explain and did explain about 3 times now.

And maybe now that he's brought it up, it SHOULD be changed so that it's disabled. Something that's been the same this entire time isn't immune to change. Of course Tarot and WoE are a different topic altogether that will likely require further argumentation so I'll leave it at that.

It might sound weird but some people are just faster than others as well. I don't know why but my DS spam is quite a bit faster than yours even though I have slightly higher ping than you do. I highly doubt it has anything to do with hardware really as input wise RO could work just as fast on a pentium 4 as it does on the current i7 :P

Faster as in finger movement? I'm a classically trained pianist and I'd reckon I have pretty fast fingers. Still not comprehending this paradox.

Don't get me wrong I'm fully up for striking down cheaters. But only the cheaters and not strike down the legit players as well while we're at it. Cause that's what the hard delays would do. Something I would recommend is letting the GMs (or certain GMs) ban based on a suspicion (of course with some proof like a video). Then after the ban a player can file a ticket if he thinks the ban is unfair and the gms can discuss the case + if needed request proof of gaming gear. If the gms agree with each other on the spam being too fast to be manual and the player can't proof ownership of gaming gear then the ban stays. If the gms disagree with each other on the ban the admins (Genesis/Vera) will have the decision on whether to keep the ban or not. If the player is able to supply proof of ownership of the gamer gear then the account will be unbanned. This is also an active method which does not punish the legit players. I of course understand that GMs can't always be online but that's when random checks during random woe's or random checks at for fild come in. That way cheaters will also think twice before using it in any major events etc. What I'm saying is I think it should be made easier for GMs to ban suspected cheaters and unban them later if proven wrong instead of not banning them or discussing the case for a long time first before anything is done.

Word block. Will read later.

Guilty until proven innocent? That's definitely not the right way to approach this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

However, damning evidence is hard to acquire. *Now entering*, the intent of this suggestion.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Forum~

[jameslamela]

Clearly you don't PvP enough because it is a major issue when cheaters are running around doing as they please. Don't tell me to change my tactics when I'm playing fair. Why should I accommodate for their decision to use 3rd-party programs? This thread is to address this very issue.

Warning: Some back-of-the-envelope math. Discretion is advised.

WoE is a PvP in a massive scale... and i do WoE much.. your statement therefor is invalid and we now can conclude that all of the rest of your statements are. nerfing these classes wont help really. (it hurts rather than helps - vera).. it will only affect the vast majority in negative way since only few knows the BN cheats etc. iam also against cheaters but please. the idea stated above is too risky, quite unnecessary, and a subject to ridicule... no offense.

[Forum~]

WoE is a PvP in a massive scale... and i do WoE much..

That makes it easier. If you WoE, then either you're actually not noticing them, turning a blind eye to cheaters, or you're defending them because I see a shit ton when I'm on my breaker.

your statement therefor is invalid and we now can conclude that all of the rest of your statements are.

Not sure if you're serious or not but that made me laugh.

nerfing these classes wont help really. (it hurts rather than helps - vera)..

Are you quoting Veracity? I'd like to see from where you're getting this. Sounds to me like you're pulling quotes out of context if anything.

it will only affect the vast majority in negative way since only few knows the BN cheats etc.

Few know about it? I can google and find a working BN in 5 seconds if I were a bastard. Edited July 19, 2014 by Forum~

[Rayray]

Woah woah woah, slow down guys.

THE OBJECTIVE OF THIS THREAD IS TO FIND OUT WHAT SKILLS ARE MOSTLY USED BY CHEATERS. THIS IS TO HELP THE GM TEAM, PARTICULARLY GENESIS SINCE HE DOES NOT PVP IN THE SERVER AND WOULD NEED OUR INPUT.

I have to make it clear I guess. All I want is a list of skills so that can be looked into. Nothing more, nothing less. I already said in the main post that putting hard delays on everything is not the answer to this.

disagree... all classes are fine the way they are now. you just need some tactics to counter them "like what you always telling everyone"... right?

This still sounds you are still not getting over the delays on gunslinger. Dude, we have no hope on that regard, Genesis already said that he is not gonna give back the old spam. You know fully well that we tried. And if you think everything is fine, please use star gladiator for pvp.

I understand your opinion and whatever it is you're fighting for but in my opinion and from my years of experience with the game, I do believe that it is a fact. It is a fact for a high rate server of course. I've seen what happens to the before and afters of skill nerfs and this one ain't so bad. Seriously? dancers being USELESS IN WOE without tarot? Lemme tell you the classes that I do think are useless in woe: Star gladiators, Priests, Ninja. So don't talk to me about BALANCE as you surely don't know a thing about it. I'm no longer gonna explain myself to you with your closed mind set.

For now, you may not see it from my point of view but when a single guild finds a legitimate way to exploit these OP skills in woe, don't tell me I didn't warn you. I've actually seen 1 or 2 guilds unlocking the secrets but as I see it, they're only in step 1.

Whatever we do, there's always gonna be cheaters/exploiters in every mmo. We can only adapt.

1. Star Glads, Priest and ninjas are in no way useless in woe, just less used. Especially that few knows how to build star glads for breaking(and it is easier to break with sinx with all the donation stuff you can get for it). They just aren't used much. I see a few ninjas before who are good defenders due to final striking breakers. No one does that now because everyone is on spamming kunai in every situation.

2. This server is up for 7 years. You imply that in those years, NO GUILD actually found out how to use those two skills? People know how to use those two skills, but they do not dictate how WoE can be won with just those two skills.

3. Adapting for cheaters is accepting the cheats as legit and part of the game. I would never accept that. Maybe you can, but not me. Sure, I can fight and win most pvp fights with people who have "legit" spam due to gaming gear(as they want to claim), but that still does not make it ok for the whole community. If it does, why the hell are we making rules regarding them?

[Forum~]

Woah woah woah, slow down guys.

THE OBJECTIVE OF THIS THREAD IS TO FIND OUT WHAT SKILLS ARE MOSTLY USED BY CHEATERS. THIS IS TO HELP THE GM TEAM, PARTICULARLY GENESIS SINCE HE DOES NOT PVP IN THE SERVER AND WOULD NEED OUR INPUT.

I have to make it clear I guess. All I want is a list of skills so that can be looked into. Nothing more, nothing less. I already said in the main post that putting hard delays on everything is not the answer to this.

Lol. *Applies breaks*

3. Adapting for cheaters is accepting the cheats as legit and part of the game. I would never accept that. Maybe you can, but not me. Sure, I can fight and win most pvp fights with people who have "legit" spam due to gaming gear(as they want to claim), but that still does not make it ok for the whole community. If it does, why the hell are we making rules regarding them?

I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER THAN THIS.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Forum~

[jameslamela]

This still sounds you are still not getting over the delays on gunslinger. Dude, we have no hope on that regard, Genesis already said that he is not gonna give back the old spam. You know fully well that we tried. And if you think everything is fine, please use star gladiator for pvp.

actually... i dont care about gunslingers now.. coz no matter how much i defend the class you guys just keep breaking it and now its broken. no more other GS now aside from LeeDX "who love GS dearly". iam now completely happily bashing with my LK in game. my above statement are for the classes you are refering into your post, star glad has nothing to do about it. and for me making starglad is a waste of time, ill be playing champs or SB sinx instead. :p :th_e4:

[jameslamela]

That makes it easier. If you WoE, then either you're actually not noticing them, turning a blind eye to cheaters, or you're defending them because I see a shit ton when I'm on my breaker.

Not sure if you're serious or not but that made me laugh.

Are you quoting Veracity? I'd like to see from where you're getting this. Sounds to me like you're pulling quotes out of context if anything.

Few know about it? I can google and find a working BN in 5 seconds if I were a bastard.

• actually im noticing LKs using BNs... i have encountered them several times. i personally hate them and no way to make a defense for them. the one whom i defending are those innocent players that will be deeply affected if the nerf is implemented. we also have to avoid further casualties...
• i dont know also if you are serious with your statements as well... because if youre not, then im trolling. but if you are, then im definitely indeed...
• well... what do you think? that quote suits you guys well..
• HOW DID YOU KNOW? :th_e16:

Edited July 19, 2014 by jameslamela

[Forum~]

• i dont know also if you are serious with your statements as well... because if youre not, then im trolling. but if you are, then im definitely indeed...
• well... what do you think? that quote suits you guys well..
• HOW DID YOU KNOW? :th_e16:

Your immaturity is astounding. Why do I even bother.

[Rayray]

actually... i dont care about gunslingers now.. coz no matter how much i defend the class you guys just keep breaking it and now its broken. no more other GS now aside from LeeDX "who love GS dearly". iam now completely happily bashing with my LK in game. my above statement are for the classes you are refering into your post, star glad has nothing to do about it. and for me making starglad is a waste of time, ill be playing champs or SB sinx instead. :p :th_e4:

we keep breaking it? It was broken to begin with, regarding the desperado spam. And, I hope you do remember, I fought for at least 80% after cast delay, when it was 75% at the first wave of the nerf. That's the highest we can do as Genesis will not allow any more than that. No matter how hard you fight for it, the spam rate of desperado was broken, no point denying it.

If you are indeed referring to the main post, I clearly said what I wanted to do in there.

EDIT: I NOW PUT IT IN BIGGER FONT, MADE IT BOLD AND HAVE IT UNDERLINED.

I was already saying that we do not need to put huge/hard delays on everything. What we need is to put a certain delay that makes it so that BN users will not benefit from it, and normal users will not feel it as much(like on what happened to spiral pierce's delay)

Edited July 19, 2014 by Rayray

[zencis]

1. Star Glads, Priest and ninjas are in no way useless in woe, just less used. Especially that few knows how to build star glads for breaking(and it is easier to break with sinx with all the donation stuff you can get for it). They just aren't used much. I see a few ninjas before who are good defenders due to final striking breakers. No one does that now because everyone is on spamming kunai in every situation.

Okay not useless, just less used because they are out classed by other classes in every aspect. Still sounds pretty useless to me.

2. This server is up for 7 years. You imply that in those years, NO GUILD actually found out how to use those two skills? People know how to use those two skills, but they do not dictate how WoE can be won with just those two skills.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I was talking about the present woe. Yes, even a noob knows how to use those skills but that doesn't mean they know how to fully maximize the use of those skills to the point of IT being OP and mind you, I never said those two skills alone dictates the outcome of a woe.

3. Adapting for cheaters is accepting the cheats as legit and part of the game. I would never accept that. Maybe you can, but not me. Sure, I can fight and win most pvp fights with people who have "legit" spam due to gaming gear(as they want to claim), but that still does not make it ok for the whole community. If it does, why the hell are we making rules regarding them?

Game rules are more of a guideline. To follow it or not is ones decision. You may be able to ban 1 or 2 players today, tomorrow there will be 10 more. Next thing you know, the server only has 50 or less players including your afk vendors. Who are you gonna play with then now? Be open to facts and not illusions. I'm betting your "whole community" conisists of 10% of the server players.

Edited July 19, 2014 by zencis

[jameslamela]

Your immaturity is astounding. Why do I even bother.

• a direct accusation without further justification... tsk..tsk..tsk... so ironic isnt it? :th_e5:

[jameslamela]

we keep breaking it? It was broken to begin with, regarding the desperado spam. And, I hope you do remember, I fought for at least 80% after cast delay, when it was 75% at the first wave of the nerf. That's the highest we can do as Genesis will not allow any more than that. No matter how hard you fight for it, the spam rate of desperado was broken, no point denying it.

If you are indeed referring to the main post, I clearly said what I wanted to do in there.

EDIT: I NOW PUT IT IN BIGGER FONT, MADE IT BOLD AND HAVE IT UNDERLINED.

I was already saying that we do not need to put huge/hard delays on everything. What we need is to put a certain delay that makes it so that BN users will not benefit from it, and normal users will not feel it as much(like on what happened to spiral pierce's delay)

• is their need for me to be so? who cares? im an LK now... former gunslingers of this servers have already switched to other classes a long long time ago... i hope you knew?
• yes, very well said and i give you a -1 vote for it.
• how sure are you that it will solve the BN problems and at the same time wont affect the players?
• if so, then how much delay are you suggesting to convince people to agree and to take it in effect? :th_hmm:

[Raiden]

Guys, let's try to keep the thread civilized. Try to respect each other's opinions :)

[gennova]

Well I already saw this coming. So back on topic.

I think rayray already listed all skill that I know been broken on spam and as for fixing Arrow Vulcan delay I can get on board with if the Tarot delay nerfed too.

[sartorius19]

I understand your opinion and whatever it is you're fighting for but in my opinion and from my years of experience with the game, I do believe that it is a fact. It is a fact for a high rate server of course. I've seen what happens to the before and afters of skill nerfs and this one ain't so bad. Seriously? dancers being USELESS IN WOE without tarot? Lemme tell you the classes that I do think are useless in woe: Star gladiators, Priests, Ninja. So don't talk to me about BALANCE as you surely don't know a thing about it. I'm no longer gonna explain myself to you with your closed mind set.

Sorry to counter argue on this one.but as ive find it different also in my years of exp in FRO and other servers. Priests and star glads are not essential but not really useless. they are just some of the classes which is not usually used in woe.

SG's are good and can kill jobs on his hatred list in woe. because of the skill which is based on the # of the party members. Ive seen several SG's in woe and i must say they are good on def and killing breakers. They are easily countered if not on gtb and devo yes, but SG can be awesome too its just not popular and not explored more by players.

As for the Priests. Without a priest u cant fully defend ur castle. Ive been on guilds before holding emp without breaking due to the combination mainly of prof and priest + devo and chant.

Ninja Are also good in woe def and offense. They have good defensive skills and mostly dont die if they know how to play it.

[Igopewpew]

I understand your opinion and whatever it is you're fighting for but in my opinion and from my years of experience with the game, I do believe that it is a fact. It is a fact for a high rate server of course. I've seen what happens to the before and afters of skill nerfs and this one ain't so bad. Seriously? dancers being USELESS IN WOE without tarot? Lemme tell you the classes that I do think are useless in woe: Star gladiators, Priests, Ninja. So don't talk to me about BALANCE as you surely don't know a thing about it. I'm no longer gonna explain myself to you with your closed mind set.

You can not believe something is a fact when something is not a fact. If you find that it should be disabled then say that you think it would be better off disabled. Don't say that it was never supposed to be enabled as that is just completely false information. Dancers hardly have anything going for them in WoE other than slow grace and tarot. Specially since their ranged damage is heavily nerfed. I know every song, every skill, every tactic regarding it and every stat influencing each skill individually. I've played RO from the moment there were only first job classes so you're not the only one with years of experience within the game. But unlike you, I also have years of experience on this server alone and I know how things work around here. The only reason why star gladiators are not played right now is due to their limitation on classes and the current hard delay of running/fsk. Something that you apparently didn't know about, however their breaking builds are still viable. Priests useless? they are one of the most key classes in guarding a castle that tells me enough about your knowledge regarding classes on this server. Ninja is globally known as a class with an disadvantage in WoE due to the pushback rules but they're not useless.

In short, with 20% relevant casts at 1 tarot/second, it is expected that you will cast a relevant tarot once every 5 seconds. Among those relevant casts (8/14), 3/8 of them cause debuffs to MATK/ATK meaning on order of magnitude, nearly every 10 seconds some sort of debuff will be recasted on you, with the debuff lasting 30 seconds (perpetual debuff state). This is quite unfair once you also tack on dispel tarot, coma tarot, and getting rooted.

Well this is where our opinions differ. If you see what I can do in 5 seconds on for example a champion then having 1 effective tarot every 5 seconds is not gonna do much. If it truly needs a nerf it will have to go combined with a buff to AV and it shouldn't be a hard delay, cause a hard delay would make clowns/gypsies unable to AV or any other skill after tarot as well rendering coma completely useless unless you double card. I'd rather have the debuff duration lowered instead of having more delay on the skill. Say lower the most severe debuffs to a 10-15 second duration instead of 30 and the skill should be fine.

It's not slow or weak if you're forced to wear GTB. I haven't tested clown/gypsy myself recently but I think their damage swells between 10-12k right? So, at averages of 3 AV in a spam, that's (3 AVs * 9 hits * 10-12k damage) = 270-324k damage. That's basically equal or greater than the full HP of nearly every class in the game, with exceptions to LK and Paladin. And that's just with 3 AVs. People claim to do 4 as well which is utterly ridiculous. Now consider this damage and also tarot's ability to still work (most of the cards) DESPITE wearing GTB. Are you seeing why many people are calling foul on this skill?

Having the player wear gtb doesn't make the av spam any better and it's known by now that the AV spam is slow AND has big cooldowns in between. Their damage on me while wearing gtb is +/- 8-9k. on frigs gtb. 10-11k is with buffs and ship captain hat maybe which makes them vurnerable. (low hp and statusses can be applied). Also you have about 3+ seconds to seed during their "burst" in comparison to sinx where you need to seed within 1 second to be able to heal against the damage on usakoring.

And maybe now that he's brought it up, it SHOULD be changed so that it's disabled. Something that's been the same this entire time isn't immune to change. Of course Tarot and WoE are a different topic altogether that will likely require further argumentation so I'll leave it at that.

I never commented on whether it'd be better of disabled or not. I simply stated he can NOT claim it's a fact that it is supposed to be disabled when the default WoE rules do not disable the skill. If you want to know whether I want it disabled in WoE. Well I can only laugh at that as the answer is obvious. Lets not make WoE into an pally/sinx only thing again shall we ?

Faster as in finger movement? I'm a classically trained pianist and I'd reckon I have pretty fast fingers. Still not comprehending this paradox.

I don't really get what that has to do with anything, the fact of the matter is still that I spam a lot faster than you do, so setting a "default" on spam rate is going to be hard. Just saying the DS spam you did won't kill anybody, ever. It looks like 400-500 ping spam instead of 50 ping o.o;

Guilty until proven innocent? That's definitely not the right way to approach this. http://en.wikipedia....on_of_innocence

However, damning evidence is hard to acquire. *Now entering*, the intent of this suggestion.

None said guilty until proven innocent. Simply as soon as you have spam that's too fast to be legit then you're GUILTY of using spam aiding programs/gear. The ONLY way to find out whether it's truly gear or third party programs is by the banned player's proof of owning the gear. Simple as that. They are guilty when the GMs find them guilty. It's always been that way. The only way to get back into the game for people that are currently banned for using third party programs is by supplying proof of owning the gaming gear. As soon as a GM thinks someone is guilty they make a short video then that's the proof of guiltyness right there. If later on is decided that the proof is not enough or if the player is able to supply proof of the gaming gear then it can be reverted. That way you actively and quickly clean out the cheaters and only the ones that have the actual gaming gear will be able to get back in. Maybe this is a small hassle for the ones with gaming gear but it's definitely a LOT better than destroying a lot of classes simply because people abuse third party programs on them. (no offense). Again I think that destroying classes for legit players is NOT a solution to people cheating on those classes simply because it hits the legit players as well and not just the cheaters. If you put it this way: What you're wanting to do right now is making an entire class stay for detention because 1 or 2 of the people in the class were unable to stay quiet. That's not how it works. You can't punish the majority for the faults of the minority. You punish the minority not everyone else as well.

3. Adapting for cheaters is accepting the cheats as legit and part of the game. I would never accept that. Maybe you can, but not me. Sure, I can fight and win most pvp fights with people who have "legit" spam due to gaming gear(as they want to claim), but that still does not make it ok for the whole community. If it does, why the hell are we making rules regarding them?

As explained above, by adding delays you are adapting the game to the cheaters, instead of simply getting rid of the cheaters you punish the players that legitly play the game.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Igopewpew

[zencis]

You can not believe something is a fact when something is not a fact. If you find that it should be disabled then say that you think it would be better off disabled. Don't say that it was never supposed to be enabled as that is just completely false information. Dancers hardly have anything going for them in WoE other than slow grace and tarot. Specially since their ranged damage is heavily nerfed. I know every song, every skill, every tactic regarding it and every stat influencing each skill individually.

OH righty, now I know why we don't understand each other. When I said that it shouldn't be implemented in the first place. I was talking about the skill in woe on a high rate server. You're obviously bias against the tarot getting nerfed. So I rest my case.

I've played RO from the moment there were only first job classes so you're not the only one with years of experience within the game. But unlike you, I also have years of experience on this server alone and I know how things work around here. The only reason why star gladiators are not played right now is due to their limitation on classes and the current hard delay of running/fsk. Something that you apparently didn't know about, however their breaking builds are still viable. Priests useless? they are one of the most key classes in guarding a castle that tells me enough about your knowledge regarding classes on this server. Ninja is globally known as a class with an disadvantage in WoE due to the pushback rules but they're not useless.

Maybe you've been stuck in this server too long that you've been accustomed to the way things are and don't want change. If every old player in this server is the same as you, Now I won't wonder why some stuff are unbalanced till now. However, you do have your own opinion as do I and I guess we've both made our point, now let's just wait for the server admins/mods to consider what is the best option for our opinions.

As explained above, by adding delays you are adapting the game to the cheaters, instead of simply getting rid of the cheaters you punish the players that legitly play the game.

Finally something we're both on the same page. Just because one or two skill was nerfed doesn't mean all skills should be, for if all skills were nerfed then no skill was nerfed lol... Not everyone uses BN and not everyone are near the server, now I'm done riding on this thread.

[Igopewpew]

OH righty, now I know why we don't understand each other. When I said that it shouldn't be implemented in the first place. I was talking about the skill in woe on a high rate server. You're obviously bias against the tarot getting nerfed. So I rest my case.

Even if you're talking about a high rate enviroment you still can't say that "it's a fact that it should be disabled" no it's your opinion that it should be disabled, not a fact. I'm not "Bias" in any way. In fact the last time I played my gypsy was months ago. I just don't want a perfectly fine class to be nerfed to the ground because people 1: Don't know how to fight them. And 2: find them annoying. Either way AGAIN as stated in the first post. This topic is about skills that are getting abused by third party programs, tarot is not one of the commonly abused skills so there's no need to discuss it here. Discuss it in the other topic instead.

Maybe you've been stuck in this server too long that you've been accustomed to the way things are and don't want change. If every old player in this server is the same as you, Now I won't wonder why some stuff are unbalanced till now. However, you do have your own opinion as do I and I guess we've both made our point, now let's just wait for the server admins/mods to consider what is the best option for our opinions.

You really should do some research before you post bullshit. I've made numerous suggestion topics on this forum, I've supported lots of suggestions as well. Just because I do not agree with a certain change doesn't mean I'm against change. I've been here long. That means I know exactly what the balance is like at this current moment. Compared to someone that's relatively new and is basing his points on how other random high rates servers do it, with other customs and other effects. No offense but I'd prefer to listen to people that know what the balance is like on this server. Not what the balance is like on others. Now please if you're only going to make stupid comments like the one above then indeed refrain from posting.

Finally something we're both on the same page. Just because one or two skill was nerfed doesn't mean all skills should be, for if all skills were nerfed then no skill was nerfed lol... Not everyone uses BN and not everyone are near the server, now I'm done riding on this thread.

Well we got that going for us then.

[zencis]

You really should do some research before you post bullshit. I've made numerous suggestion topics on this forum, I've supported lots of suggestions as well. Just because I do not agree with a certain change doesn't mean I'm against change. I've been here long. That means I know exactly what the balance is like at this current moment. Compared to someone that's relatively new and is basing his points on how other random high rates servers do it, with other customs and other effects.

I don't need to do a research on you and I certainly wasn't looking for your approval. I said what I said seeing the way things go around the server and you said it yourself that you've been here far longer than I am and that you've made numerous suggestions and so on and then I looked back to what I see actually happens in the server and I just can't help but think about you being stuck in a box.

No offense but I'd prefer to listen to people that know what the balance is like on this server. Not what the balance is like on others. Now please if you're only going to make stupid comments like the one above then indeed refrain from posting.

Exactly what I've been saying, stuck in a box. Now just because I stated what other servers do doesn't mean I'm pushing it into this server and even if I was, that doesn't mean that I didn't think about the effects it will bring to this server. No offense but unlike you, I don't need to stay in a server for a long time to see and to know what the server lacks and what improvements can be done. So stop "bashing" me with your inability to comprehend with what I'm talking about.

Edited July 19, 2014 by zencis

[Genesis]

We won't be adding hard delays onto any skills, we will just make the client and server delays match. Meaning third party programs will offer no advantage.