ThePerfectHit Posted June 11, 2014 Report Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) Obviously everyone won't agree to these changes and everyone has their own opinion on what should be changed, but from my experience I honestly think these changes would improve the pvp scene of this server. Your own suggestions and comments are welcomed and I will not bash your comments unless they're just ridiculous. And don't bash my suggestion if you yourself does not pvp or haven't played as or against the class I am suggesting a change for. Lord Knight - Reduce Parry Block Chance - Make counter attack more viable against classes such as sinx High Wizard (No experience with this class) Sniper - Reduce the range that FAS can hit after the initial person is hit (ex. After initial target is hit by FAS a person 15 cells away won't be hit even if he is in the same line as the target.) - Remove/Fix position delay when walking on skid trap Mastersmith (Like the way the class is, just don't approve of the BN users) Assassin Cross - Permanent cooldown (1s) on backslide or reduce backslides cell range to about 3 or 4 cells. (May seem small but with 3kiels would still be very viable and annoying, just less annoying then it is now) High Priest - Permanent cooldown on Lex Aeterna - Require Safety wall to actually use gemstones Paladin (No experience with this class) Scholar/Professor - Allow LP to block ice wall (Not sure if this is just a glitch in GvG and BR but you can still icewall onto the LP) Minstrel/Gypsy - Allow GTB to negate the tarot card that cuts enemy damage in half and the tarot that doesn't allow a player's character to move. Biochemist - Jrage enables lvl5 lightning bolt Stalker - Permanent cooldown (1s) on backslide or reduce backslides cell range to about 3 or 4 cells. (May seem small but with 3kiels would still be very viable and annoying, just less annoying then it is now) - Reduce the movement speed they are granted by soul link Champion - Permanent cooldown (.5s / 1s) on snap or reduce cell range to about 4 or 5 cells. - Make occult impaction more viable. TaeKwon (No experience with this class) Super Novice (Think the class is fine the way it is, possibly buff mammomite damage.) Gunslinger (Think the class is fine the way it is, just needs to be played properly.) Ninja - Permanent cooldown on Flip Tatami (1s / 2s) - Permanent cooldown on Cicada Skin Shedding (1s / 2s) Super Novice - Insane HP pool with little vit needed in the build (Honestly have around the same HP as paladin with 2tao) Edited June 12, 2014 by ThePerfectHit
Igopewpew Posted June 11, 2014 Report Posted June 11, 2014 I'm just going to go down the list and share my opinion on each individual change you suggested: Lord Knight - Reduce Parry Block Chance - Make counter attack more viable against classes such as sinx Agree with this one. LK's have high damage output, extremely high HP and the parry chance is simply too high, specially for a 1 handed weapon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- High Wizard (No experience with this class) This is the class that needs the most changes (read buffs) to become effective in pvp. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sniper - Reduce the range that FAS can hit after the initial person is hit (ex. After initial target is hit by FAS a person 15 cells away won't be hit even if he is in the same line as the target.) - Remove/Fix position delay when walking on skid trap These are source changes and most likely will not be done. However I agree with the FAS one. The position delay is caused by the client, I don't think this can be fixed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mastersmith (Like the way the class is, just don't approve of the BN users) Agreed WS are fine as they are. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Assassin Cross - Permanent cooldown (1s) on backslide or reduce backslides cell range to about 3 or 4 cells. (May seem small but with 3kiels would still be very viable and annoying, just less annoying then it is now) I disagree, I love the fast paced PvP in FRO, adding hard delays (and certainly ones as huge as a 1 second on the one and only escape skill) slows down the pace of pvp. Which in my opinion is a bad thing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- High Priest - Permanent cooldown on Lex Aeterna - Require Safety wall to actually use gemstones Absolutely not. Priests are the closest to being completely useless as they are already they need major buffs not any sort of nerf. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paladin (No experience with this class) Paladins are fine as they are. Just wish there was a ring more oriented on battle paladins (holy cross/shield chain instead of grand cross) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scholar/Professor - Allow LP to block ice wall (Not sure if this is just a glitch in GvG and BR but you can still icewall onto the LP) Agreed on this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Minstrel/Gypsy - Allow GTB to block half damage and root tarot. Highly disagree. This would make it way too easy to fight Minstrels/Gypsies. The only way for them to kill is either coma or force into gtb and be lucky with their slow burst. If this was implemented all you'd have to do is pneuma yourself (or use pneuma clip) rsx and gtb and you'd be completely immortal vs any gypsy/minstrel. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Biochemist - Jrage enables lvl5 lightning bolt Unnecessary but I don't see a reason not to do it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stalker - Permanent cooldown (1s) on backslide or reduce backslides cell range to about 3 or 4 cells. (May seem small but with 3kiels would still be very viable and annoying, just less annoying then it is now) - Reduce the movement speed they are granted by soul link Disagreed on the first one again. The second one could use a minor tweak but I don't think it really is a big deal. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Champion - Permanent cooldown (.5s / 1s) on snap or reduce cell range to about 4 or 5 cells. - Make occult impaction more viable. Highly disagree on adding cooldown to snap. They already have a cooldown with asura after snap, that already is a big enough disadvantage. Speed is the most important thing about champs, don't remove their ability to kite and force them to be asura-only characters. That'd ruin the class. As for the occult impaction. I'd love to see it be more viable but I don't see how other than making it weapon element. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TaeKwon (No experience with this class) Taekwon ranker list needs to be reset badly. As for star gladiator they need an npc that actually resets their hatred targets, not the maps. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Super Novice (Think the class is fine the way it is, possibly buff mammomite damage.) SN are more than fine as they are. I'd earlier recommend a nerf instead of a buff. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gunslinger (Think the class is fine the way it is, just needs to be played properly.) I agree but I'd love to see opportunities for different play styles such as a 1h grenade launcher. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ninja - Permanent cooldown on Flip Tatami (1s / 2s) - Permanent cooldown on Cicada Skin Shedding (1s / 2s) Ninja's after skill delay on Cicada skin shedding already is decent. You just need to know how to fight vs ninja's. They don't need any nerfs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rayray Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 1. Agree with LK. Up to this day, I do not know why we gave them that sword that allows parry and let them have a shield. 2. Wizard class needs more HP. And the fact that the prof class has a weapon that gives it more damage with stave than the wizard class seems really weird to me. 3. I agree with the range of FAS to be changed, but I think it isn't possible. 4. WS is way more than fine, BN users just make them godly. 5. For the backslide of both SinX and Stalker, reducing the cell might be better than putting a hard delay. 6. Disagree with the priest one, that's the only thing they have going on. 7. Give the pallies a weapon/ring concentrated on offensive build. At the moment you need to have Thana for the offensive build to work, and it still isn't as high damaging as one would think. 8. Agree on the LP removing icewall. I never been a fan of the strategy of spamming icewall in br or gvg. I find it cheap. 9. Cannot comment on clown since i never use the class as well as i used the others(a bit of a high ping). 10. As someone who mains biochemist, i agree to that as long as we gain the card that boost its damage. putting lightning bolt on the jrage with no card to back it up will be pointless. And imo, the thing that biochemists needs the most is the fix on homunculus. everyone only uses lif since all the other ones do not work. Fix that and biochemist will be great. 11. Agree on making occult be viable, maybe put damage increase on weapon/ring? 12. Alright taekwon, reset the ranking for ranker. Soul linkers need a bit more hp, and taekwon masters need HP and that hatred reset. 13. Super Novice needs to get their HP reduced when using dual tao. Seriously, why did we give them paladin type hp with using minimal VIT stat. 14. Gunslinger would need different weapons that buff different skills so that they are not just spamming desperado all day. 15. I personally do not have much problems with ninja cuz I main bio. The moment they stop using flip tatami, they are screwed anyway against me. However, I see the point of having a bit of delay on cicada and flip tatami.
ThePerfectHit Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) I see how the hard delays would affect the fast paced pvp this server has and have altered my suggestion, except for ninja because I feel cooldown is the only way to make them more fair to play against as classes such as sniper. As for priest, they are viable as HL priest even with the Lex nerf. Edited June 12, 2014 by ThePerfectHit
Igopewpew Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 As for priest, they are viable as HL priest even with the Lex nerf. If you mean having a class be countered with 1 card only is viable then no. Priests are not viable right now, and they'll lose the only thing they have going for them in pvp atm if you add more delay to lex.All in all I've given my point of view on your suggested changes. I disagree mainly with the snap and backslide changes you're suggesting and the gypsy/clown changes. I however agree mostly with the LK and Sniper changes.
thePast Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 I see how the hard delays would affect the fast paced pvp this server has and have altered my suggestion, except for ninja because I feel cooldown is the only way to make them more fair to play against as classes such as sniper. As for priest, they are viable as HL priest even with the Lex nerf. Priest are for support , and HL doesn't do a lot of damage without link or proper equipment. They're fine the way it is now. My opinion on topic ; LK ; Yes, their parry skills is really overpower Sniper ; Not that necessary Assasin cross ; No thanks , everything seems fine to me Profesor ; Sure , why not Minster/gypsy ; No thanks Biochemist ; Why? Isn't coldbolt/firebolt enough? @_@ Stalker ; Nah Champion ; Not necessary Ninja ; No , nerfing them will only make them weaker than they already are, they have low hp..
ThePerfectHit Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Posted June 12, 2014 If you mean having a class be countered with 1 card only is viable then no. Priests are not viable right now, and they'll lose the only thing they have going for them in pvp atm if you add more delay to lex. All in all I've given my point of view on your suggested changes. I disagree mainly with the snap and backslide changes you're suggesting and the gypsy/clown changes. I however agree mostly with the LK and Sniper changes. ? If you're going to say that you might as well include professor too. That's why there's a card to strip shield, use it. They also have stave, so even if they do GTB they still aren't useless, your argument is invalid. Priest are for support , and HL doesn't do a lot of damage without link or proper equipment. They're fine the way it is now. My opinion on topic ; LK ; Yes, their parry skills is really overpower Sniper ; Not that necessary Assasin cross ; No thanks , everything seems fine to me Profesor ; Sure , why not Minster/gypsy ; No thanks Biochemist ; Why? Isn't coldbolt/firebolt enough? @_@ Stalker ; Nah Champion ; Not necessary Ninja ; No , nerfing them will only make them weaker than they already are, they have low hp.. The sniper change isn't necessary, its a suggestion to make pvp better, hence the title of the post Assassin crosses changes are so the pvp is more skill based and not just SB and backslide Play against a clown that doesn't even attempt to AV but instead just spam Tarot before you comment on this one, it's annoying and overpowered in my opinion. Biochemist don't need lightning bolt but some classes have natural reduction to fire / water and many people use cards to reduce the damage from those properties even more, so adding lightning bolt would help Again, play against a linked stalker that just spams backslide and runs and FAS before you comment on this one too Ninja are good against every class, their HP isn't my problem, could care less if you gave them more HP, they need delays. A ninja can tatami and cicada almost every skill in the game and it's honestly ridiculous. Please play against a good ninja before commenting.
Zombee Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) LK - Absolutely, I see parry proc up to 8 times in a row sometimes. ( Via Asura, mind you. ) HW - A 20% HP increase would be baller. Sniper - If you're talking about the splash damage radius of sniper, then yes. I could be out of their range and I still die without any indication of me taking damage. WS - They do seem to be alright. SinX - SinX is fine in terms of skills, they just need to rework the items and allow more option for build. HPriest - Support class is support. Paladin - They're alright. Prof - This should definitely be fixed. Bard/Gypsy - I have to agree. Machos + AV = Game over for anyone who even dares to put on a GTB. Not to metion dispel & any other effect except coma still go through it. At the very least make it effect the root, otherwise I'm forced to sit in pnuema like a dick. Bio - FB, CB is good enough imo. Switch to elemental armors or cloaks, AD dead. Lol. Stalker - Mmm, idk. Stalkers are barely played imo. Champ - Occult is pretty fine, sure it's not Occult duels, but were on a server with Thana card, so nobody has refined armor or they're wearing skolls n taos with decrease the damage greatly. I've definitely had my fair share of kills via Occult. Ninjas - Okay, now this one is wishy washy. At least put a minor delay on one of them. Being able to spam them together and be unhittable for hours on end is just stupid. Just a minor delay on one of them, not both. Only way to even touch them is a Bard or WS. If they're built right, a WS won't even get near them. Edited June 12, 2014 by Zombee
Igopewpew Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 ? If you're going to say that you might as well include professor too. That's why there's a card to strip shield, use it. They also have stave, so even if they do GTB they still aren't useless, your argument is invalid. First off I was talking about angeling obviously, as holy light is their only offensive spell. Wear angeling + usakoring and priests can do 0 to you. Stave will do poop damage, holy light will miss. This leads to the conclusion that basically 1 card completely blocks this class and thus it's not an viable option for pvp, At least not unless you're in a gang. Second of I'm not complaining about the class, you are.. so I'm not seeing what you're trying to do here. Thirdly, priest's magic attack will never reach as high as a prof's one neither does priest have the elemental boosts that prof have, and thus stave crasher is even weaker on priests than it already is on prof's/ wizards. Out of all magic classes profs are by far the strongest on FRO so no, we should not include professors. Assassin crosses changes are so the pvp is more skill based and not just SB and backslide It'd be better to look at how we can improve other builds instead of nerfing existing ones.ay against a clown that doesn't even attempt to AV but instead just spam Tarot before you comment on this one, it's annoying and overpowered in my opinion. This would be extremely easy to beat. Having fcp + gtb makes you completely immune to such a clown/gypsy. TAO RSX/Pneuma/gtb = Immune for any gypsy/clown, unless you make a mistake and get out of pneuma. Clowns NEED the effect of all tarot cards, that's their playstyle. You need to be able to force people to gtb because their regular damage is way too low. And they need to survive until they coma or are able to get lucky and burst someone down. Again, play against a linked stalker that just spams backslide and runs and FAS before you comment on this one too You should stop assuming other players haven't fought against this. Yes it might be annoying but it's not OP in any way and thus balance wise it's fine. You don't nerf things just because people find it annoying to fight against..Ninja are good against every class, their HP isn't my problem, could care less if you gave them more HP, they need delays. A ninja can tatami and cicada almost every skill in the game and it's honestly ridiculous. Please play against a good ninja before commenting. I've played against a LOT of ninja's in the past years on this server and I don't really have problems with any of them. They're easy to counter and now that they can't warp anymore they are also easy to kill. You just have to know how to fight them :). 1
ThePerfectHit Posted June 13, 2014 Author Report Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) First off I was talking about angeling obviously, as holy light is their only offensive spell. Wear angeling + usakoring and priests can do 0 to you. Stave will do poop damage, holy light will miss. This leads to the conclusion that basically 1 card completely blocks this class and thus it's not an viable option for pvp, At least not unless you're in a gang. Second of I'm not complaining about the class, you are.. so I'm not seeing what you're trying to do here. -Dont see where I said you were complaining so this was a pointless comment. Thirdly, priest's magic attack will never reach as high as a prof's one neither does priest have the elemental boosts that prof have, and thus stave crasher is even weaker on priests than it already is on prof's/ wizards. Out of all magic classes profs are by far the strongest on FRO so no, we should not include professors. It'd be better to look at how we can improve other builds instead of nerfing existing ones.This would be extremely easy to beat. Having fcp + gtb makes you completely immune to such a clown/gypsy. TAO RSX/Pneuma/gtb = Immune for any gypsy/clown, unless you make a mistake and get out of pneuma. Clowns NEED the effect of all tarot cards, that's their playstyle. You need to be able to force people to gtb because their regular damage is way too low. And they need to survive until they coma or are able to get lucky and burst someone down. Are you serious? You realize the average clown with gears do 5~6k AV with falcon eyes probably 6~7k? Lets do some math. AV hits 9 times doing 5~6k each, assuming the guy can spam ATLEAST 3 AV which is insanely easy is (5,000 * 9)*3 = 135,000 that's pretty much half if not more than half of any classes HP. Now lets do 6k and 7k. (6,000 * 9)*3 = 162,200 l (7000 * 9 )*3 = 189,000 . Ok now that's only the average clown, there's that do way more then that ON USAKORING. Now some clowns use ship captain so that's another 20% boost or so the description says, but it really adds closer to 25% when I tested, but for ill just use 20%. (Obviously countered by puppetring but not if you cant survive the initial burst) Ok so ((5,000*.2)*9)*3 = 162,000 l ((6,000*.2)*9)*3 = 194,400 l ((7000*.2)*9)*3 = 226,800 (<- More HP than my champ with 2FBH). Ok now you're saying Tao RSX/Pneuma/GTB immune to GTB, first the only classes that have pneuma are Priest and Champion, so assuming the person is using pneuma clip, it is a 5% chance to cast pneuma. By your logic since you want the person to use GTB that removes 35% reduction from demi-human that you COULD of had by using usakoring. So let's do some more math since you have to be hit by AV in order for pneuma to proc ((5000 * .35 )*9)*3 = 182,250 l ((6000 * .35 )*9)*3 = 218,700 l ((7000 * .35)*9)*3 = 255,150 l Now lets say they're using ship captain ((5000*.2)*.35)*9)*3 = 218,700 not going to do the rest of the math, you can do the rest yourself with the formulas I have provided, but if you don't think that damage is enough I have nothing else to say to you. Either way, they do enough damage while a person is on usakoring and you want to force people to use GTB against them? The reason the class isn't played by many is because they cannot spam. These tarots are just another add-on that makes them more overpowered. Not to mention how some of these clown mains on the server can spam 4, 5, and even 6 consistently. You should stop assuming other players haven't fought against this. Yes it might be annoying but it's not OP in any way and thus balance wise it's fine. You don't nerf things just because people find it annoying to fight against.. Stalkers doing ATLEAST 20~30k FAS while having good reductions from their kit and being unable to be targeted because of their long range is ok with you? And when they are finally targeted they can just backslide spam? Or just go into stealth? You cannot catch them even with speed pots if they don't run in a straight line. It's more than annoying since you are unable to hit them most of the time. And I do find it annoying to fight against because there is simply nothing you can do about it, hence why it deserves a change. Decrease agi? They will simply backslide. I've played against a LOT of ninja's in the past years on this server and I don't really have problems with any of them. They're easy to counter and now that they can't warp anymore they are also easy to kill. You just have to know how to fight them :). This mostly depends on what class you're playing but for the most part against a ninja with half a brain, you won't be able to touch them unless you are Whitesmith or Bard as Zombee said. Let's do a rundown of all classes vs ninja. Lord Knight - Charge atk? Piece of cake, I'll just cicada. Trap me in a corner? Piece of cake, I'll just cloak and run away. Sight me? Piece of cake, I'll just Hidden Water to slow you, so you can't catch up, I could even Crimson Fire Formation to keep you off of me for a few seconds until you go around or GTB, in which case instead of taking 10k from Throw Kunai you will now take about 15k(adding 20% for ship captain since ninja can main GTB since they can't be hit by most classes), or RSX. Bowling bash? Piece of cake, I'll just cicada that too! Spiral Piece? Piece of cake, I'll just tatami once every 2 seconds while I throw 10k kunais at you! Assassin - Auto attack is no match for the legendary cicada, and you will not be able to corner them seeing as how many of the ones with even half a brain use sinx card. Even vanishing slash and shadow leap can get them out of corners. SB? Piece of cake, cicada and tatami should take care of that problem! Grimtooth? Piece of cake, I'll just use cicada! Sandattack? Piece of cake, I'll just cicada that too! High Wizard - Piece of cake, GTB and Tatami if they attempt to stave Sniper - Piece of cake, Tatami their FAS/DS basically all their skills and make them useless, oh but cicada just in case, you never know! Try and auto attack? Piece of cake, I'll just cicada that. Mastersmith - One of the two classes that Zombee mentioned that can fight them well High Priest - Piece of cake, every ninja with half a brain already defaults GTB, what are you going to do stave me? Piece of cake, I'll tatami spam while I 10k throwing kunai you. Auto attack? Piece of cake, I'll just cicada. Paladin - Piece of cake, I'll tatami any skill you have to throw at me while I throw 10k kunais at you! Professor - Piece of cake, since every ninja with half a brain already defaults GTB, what are you going to do stave me? Piece of cake, I'll tatami spam while throwing 10k kunai you. Auto attack? Piece of cake, I'll just cicada. Try and blinding mist to protect yourself? HAH, I'll just crimson fire formation your mist to move you out! Then spam you some more with 10k kunais! Clown/Gypsy - Again , one of the two classes Zombee mentioned that can fight ninjas. This one you have to actually know what tarot cards do what and have good reaction time. Assuming you know what each tarot card's effect is it should be an ok match up. Since you can dispell the cicada and attempt to AV, but if the ninja has good reactions also you are no match. He will simply tatami your AV, rebuff and cicada and continue to 10k kunai you the whole time you are taroting. Biochemist - Piece of cake, since every ninja with half a brain already defaults GTB, what are you going to do acid bomb me? HAH, I'll just tatami spam while throwing 10k kunai at you. Auto attack? Piece of cake, I'll just cicada. Stalker - Piece of cake, MATK stalker? HAH, since every ninja with half a brain already defaults GTB. Not a MATK stalker? HAH, wont matter since I can tatami any skill you copy anyway. Strip? I'll just go get FCP. Champion - Depends on how good they are at fighting ninja, but for the most part if the ninja is good the champion wont be competition. Cicada to aviod the TSS / Asura / and PSS . Tatami to also avoid TSS. Got the ninja into a corner? I'll just cloak and run away. Ruwach? I'll just crimson fire formation to stop you from getting close to me. RSX? That's fine I'll still be throwing 10k kunai at you the whole time you're chasing me. RSX + Pneuma? Cool I can't hit you, but you also can't chase a ninja using pneuma PSS strike me fast enough to ever corner me, and I'll get in 1 or 2 10k kunais in there once in awhile. TaeKwon - Never seen this pvp before, but I'm assuming it will be useless against the ninja since he will just cicada anything you try to do to him. Super Novice - Piece of cake, already default GTB and will just kite you using kunais and crimson fire formation if you even try to get close, and when you get close? HAH, cicada. Gunslinger - Piece of cake, tatami blocks rapid shower and cicada blocks desperado. Even if you try to corner me or get close I'll just crimson fire formation to keep distance. Ninja - Piece of cake, I'll just tatami all his kunais, while he tatami's all of mine. The bold text is my response if you couldn't tell. Edited June 13, 2014 by ThePerfectHit
Zombee Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 First off I was talking about angeling obviously, as holy light is their only offensive spell. Wear angeling + usakoring and priests can do 0 to you. Stave will do poop damage, holy light will miss. This leads to the conclusion that basically 1 card completely blocks this class and thus it's not an viable option for pvp, At least not unless you're in a gang. Second of I'm not complaining about the class, you are.. so I'm not seeing what you're trying to do here. Thirdly, priest's magic attack will never reach as high as a prof's one neither does priest have the elemental boosts that prof have, and thus stave crasher is even weaker on priests than it already is on prof's/ wizards. Out of all magic classes profs are by far the strongest on FRO so no, we should not include professors. It'd be better to look at how we can improve other builds instead of nerfing existing ones.This would be extremely easy to beat. Having fcp + gtb makes you completely immune to such a clown/gypsy. TAO RSX/Pneuma/gtb = Immune for any gypsy/clown, unless you make a mistake and get out of pneuma. Clowns NEED the effect of all tarot cards, that's their playstyle. You need to be able to force people to gtb because their regular damage is way too low. And they need to survive until they coma or are able to get lucky and burst someone down. You should stop assuming other players haven't fought against this. Yes it might be annoying but it's not OP in any way and thus balance wise it's fine. You don't nerf things just because people find it annoying to fight against..I've played against a LOT of ninja's in the past years on this server and I don't really have problems with any of them. They're easy to counter and now that they can't warp anymore they are also easy to kill. You just have to know how to fight them :). 1. They use Usako & Angeling, you use Cursed Water. Problem solved. Good with Stave or Melee. 2. It's a lot easier to tweak things than it is to buff everything without starting an epidemic. 3. Extremely easy to beat for who? You kind've contradicted yourself there. Yes, they need tarot to force people to gtb.. But the problem is that GTB only nullifies ONE of X amount of effects. The coma alone is more than enough to force someone to gtb, which idk if you've noticed but even with anti sniping I take 12k AVs with gtb on. I've fought plenty of ninjas, they aren't easy to counter nor easy to kill. They're the most defensive class in the game, with 0 cooldown on their defensive abilities. The only 2 classes that can actually kill them effectively are Bard/Gypsies & WS. ALSO, on another note.. I don't think I've ever seen you PvP, and I've been one of the more active PvPers this past 4 months..
thePast Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) The sniper change isn't necessary, its a suggestion to make pvp better, hence the title of the post Assassin crosses changes are so the pvp is more skill based and not just SB and backslide Play against a clown that doesn't even attempt to AV but instead just spam Tarot before you comment on this one, it's annoying and overpowered in my opinion. Biochemist don't need lightning bolt but some classes have natural reduction to fire / water and many people use cards to reduce the damage from those properties even more, so adding lightning bolt would help Again, play against a linked stalker that just spams backslide and runs and FAS before you comment on this one too Ninja are good against every class, their HP isn't my problem, could care less if you gave them more HP, they need delays. A ninja can tatami and cicada almost every skill in the game and it's honestly ridiculous. Please play against a good ninja before commenting. Assasin cross ; They don't have any defense when they are SBing, the only logical thing to do is backslide, what do you expect them to do? Hide then grimtooth? Cloak and run with speed pot? They're really fragile when they're exposed. Clown ; Already did, it's called "tactic" if you've never heard of it, What you're suggesting is like ; That skill is annoying please nerf it ( you said it yourself ) Biochemist ; Alright, fair enough. Stalker ; Their link is one of their strongest weapon for e-call in WoE, slowing it down would make people rather use other classes than stalker, giving less role and part for stalker in woe. Again, already did, It's not like the link will last forever. Nerfing the link duration might be better Ninja ; Already did , & every class? What about WS , Bio , Clown , Gypsy, ? There's always a counter-class in fRo , why don't you try other class before being rude Do not suggest skill edits or anything that would require source editing. We know it's not ideal, but since it can't be done at this time, try to be creative and work around it (e.g., suggest item/card effects, etc. ) Edited June 13, 2014 by thePast
jameslamela Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 LK = AGREE on the suggestion above... "reduce the block chance into half if possible" HW = 12% additional MATK boost. 25% more boost in HP. Sniper = NO CHANGE SHOULD BE MADE! (pneuma/defending aura already kills them) WS = NO CHANGE SHOULD BE MADE! (a dispelled WS is equal to noob.) SinX = NO CHANGE SHOULD BE MADE! (every sinx class needs a dual weld to kill, which leaves them vulnerable to any possible atks) High Priest = NO CHANGE SHOULD BE MADE! (dont make them less useful.) Pally = 15% more boost on physical damage! 12% more damage boost using GC. Prof = AGREE on the suggestion above... Bio = AGREE on the suggestion above... Stalker = NO CHANGE SHOULD BE MADE! Clown/Gyspy = NO CHANGE SHOULD BE MADE! Champ = AGREE on the suggestion above... Super Nov = NO CHANGE SHOULD BE MADE! Soul Linker = make their leap skill able on all map/for_fild/GVG/BR only. additonal 25% more on HP boost. Taekwon = 25% more damage on all atks. 20% more HP. Ninja = NO CHANGE SHOULD BE MADE! Gunslinger = FRO modified rifle/shotgun/gatling gun/grenade launcher... and Shadow/Ghost bullets! :3
adam- Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 +1 To everything except backslide delays. Also, I definetly think something should be done about tarot, a minor delay plus what you suggested above seems like a good fix to me.
-Si- Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 Priest should have lvl 10 stave like wizards to have a fighting chance. ^^ Or.... Increase the % chance to cause status effects like Curse, Silence, Sleep, etc just for preist so that their melee wont depend on just coma. The chances of causing status effect is more rare than coma lol.
ThePerfectHit Posted June 13, 2014 Author Report Posted June 13, 2014 Assasin cross ; They don't have any defense when they are SBing, the only logical thing to do is backslide, what do you expect them to do? Hide then grimtooth? Cloak and run with speed pot? They're really fragile when they're exposed. Clown ; Already did, it's called "tactic" if you've never heard of it, What you're suggesting is like ; That skill is annoying please nerf it ( you said it yourself ) Biochemist ; Alright, fair enough. Stalker ; Their link is one of their strongest weapon for e-call in WoE, slowing it down would make people rather use other classes than stalker, giving less role and part for stalker in woe. Again, already did, It's not like the link will last forever. Nerfing the link duration might be better Ninja ; Already did , & every class? What about WS , Bio , Clown , Gypsy, ? There's always a counter-class in fRo , why don't you try other class before being rude Assassin cross : That's exactly what they're supposed to do, hide and grimtooth. They're supposed to utilize all their skills not just use 2 of them and that's it. Clown : If you're going to quote me, put exactly what I said and don't half ass it. What I said was "Play against a clown that doesn't even attempt to AV but instead just spam Tarot before you comment on this one, it's annoying and overpowered in my opinion." All this change would do is make clowns more reliant on AV instead of just spamming tarot praying for a coma card sooner or later, or hoping something of theirs breaks, then killing them with 2 AV. I already did the math in one of my responses to another person who simply didn't do the math, but disagreed with the suggestion based off nothing besides "that's their playstyle." Stalker : Your argument is easily countered, champions who just snap get to the emperium room way faster then a linked stalker, and I rarely see anyone ecall on a stalker anymore, everyone just get's devotion on their sinx and ecall. Ninja : AGAIN, posted my reasoning on a response to another persons comment, please read all the post because making your pointless comment "There's always a counter-class in fRo , why don't you try other class before being rude" .
thePast Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Assassin cross : That's exactly what they're supposed to do, hide and grimtooth. They're supposed to utilize all their skills not just use 2 of them and that's it. Clown : If you're going to quote me, put exactly what I said and don't half ass it. What I said was "Play against a clown that doesn't even attempt to AV but instead just spam Tarot before you comment on this one, it's annoying and overpowered in my opinion." All this change would do is make clowns more reliant on AV instead of just spamming tarot praying for a coma card sooner or later, or hoping something of theirs breaks, then killing them with 2 AV. I already did the math in one of my responses to another person who simply didn't do the math, but disagreed with the suggestion based off nothing besides "that's their playstyle." Stalker : Your argument is easily countered, champions who just snap get to the emperium room way faster then a linked stalker, and I rarely see anyone ecall on a stalker anymore, everyone just get's devotion on their sinx and ecall. Ninja : AGAIN, posted my reasoning on a response to another persons comment, please read all the post because making your pointless comment "There's always a counter-class in fRo , why don't you try other class before being rude" . Assassin cross ; I've just did some reasearch, hide and grimtooth couldn't last long either, they'll be dead in the matter of seconds ( or none at all because the one fighting them can decloak the enemy with a click ), reducing the skill delay is making the skill rather useless. Clown ; I don't have to, you already said it was annoying , it's obvious that you're pissed and you think it should be nerfed, and your math isn't even right you're saying that clown does 5-6k on AV, well that's because most people default GR on their armor thus making most clown using shadow/immaterial arrow, it would be different if the one fighting them is using another armor, like Holy/shadow armor, that could counter clown, making the only choice available for clown to hope on tarot. Stalker ; there can always be one in the future, we never know, again, nerfing the link duration might be better Ninja ; You want me to read all your response? I'm only here to response to your suggestion, not to response on your response on other people responses, you didn't even read the rules when making this post, you're even thinking that every ninja would give the same damage, also, there's something called "cornered/walled" to fight against ninja + sight if you've never heard of it Also , this is part of the suggestion rules ; Make sure your suggestion is clear and that you back it up with solid reasoning. Do not suggest skill edits or anything that would require source editing. We know it's not ideal, but since it can't be done at this time, try to be creative and work around it (e.g., suggest item/card effects, etc.) as far as i can tell your suggestion didn't even has any solid reasoning why they should be change, and again ^ Edited June 13, 2014 by thePast
Igopewpew Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 Are you serious? You realize the average clown with gears do 5~6k AV with falcon eyes probably 6~7k? Lets do some math. AV hits 9 times doing 5~6k each, assuming the guy can spam ATLEAST 3 AV which is insanely easy is (5,000 * 9)*3 = 135,000 that's pretty much half if not more than half of any classes HP. Now lets do 6k and 7k. (6,000 * 9)*3 = 162,200 l (7000 * 9 )*3 = 189,000 . Ok now that's only the average clown, there's that do way more then that ON USAKORING. Now some clowns use ship captain so that's another 20% boost or so the description says, but it really adds closer to 25% when I tested, but for ill just use 20%. (Obviously countered by puppetring but not if you cant survive the initial burst) Ok so ((5,000*.2)*9)*3 = 162,000 l ((6,000*.2)*9)*3 = 194,400 l ((7000*.2)*9)*3 = 226,800 (<- More HP than my champ with 2FBH). Ok now you're saying Tao RSX/Pneuma/GTB immune to GTB, first the only classes that have pneuma are Priest and Champion, so assuming the person is using pneuma clip, it is a 5% chance to cast pneuma. By your logic since you want the person to use GTB that removes 35% reduction from demi-human that you COULD of had by using usakoring. So let's do some more math since you have to be hit by AV in order for pneuma to proc ((5000 * .35 )*9)*3 = 182,250 l ((6000 * .35 )*9)*3 = 218,700 l ((7000 * .35)*9)*3 = 255,150 l Now lets say they're using ship captain ((5000*.2)*.35)*9)*3 = 218,700 not going to do the rest of the math, you can do the rest yourself with the formulas I have provided, but if you don't think that damage is enough I have nothing else to say to you. Either way, they do enough damage while a person is on usakoring and you want to force people to use GTB against them? The reason the class isn't played by many is because they cannot spam. These tarots are just another add-on that makes them more overpowered. Not to mention how some of these clown mains on the server can spam 4, 5, and even 6 consistently. Alright. First off your calculations are completely off. You start with too high base damage. You add bonus damage based on the complete damage instead of base damage which results in way higher numbers than the actual increase is. Third off, WS have pneuma too, And any good player knows how to swap gears during battle, don't be silly. Most of the damages you stated is what I get on gtb. Again if you use the right gear their damage is low and they must force someone on gtb in order to be able to burst. Fith' off, their burst is slow, unlike asura you can ygg during their burst so it's quite easy to outlive. I'm not going to base things based on your calculations as I have explained that they're completely wrong. Every class has it's counters. Just because you find it annoying to fight against them doesn't mean they are OP in any way shape or form. Your nerfs are WAY too major to 'balance' the class. It would more like break the class instead of balancing it. Stalkers doing ATLEAST 20~30k FAS while having good reductions from their kit and being unable to be targeted because of their long range is ok with you? And when they are finally targeted they can just backslide spam? Or just go into stealth? You cannot catch them even with speed pots if they don't run in a straight line. It's more than annoying since you are unable to hit them most of the time. And I do find it annoying to fight against because there is simply nothing you can do about it, hence why it deserves a change. Decrease agi? They will simply backslide. There's something called ranged skills. You don't always have to get close to them to kill them. And if they manage to stay away from you good enough then they're simply good enough at kiting you and you need to change your tactic. Again, fighting against one of these is annoying, but not OP in any way, shape or form. Stalkers don't have that much going for them at all, why nerf the class even more I think they're fine as they are.blabla ninja kills every class peace of cake Sorry I got too lazy copy pasting the whole bunch of hilarious statements you made there. For most of the classes you mentioned there it's extremely easy to corner a ninja and 1-2 hit it. Lately I've played champion, sinx, paladin,SN and creator and there hasn't been a single ninja that I've had trouble with at all. For the ones I just mentioned, excluding sinx, including LK , all that it takes is a sight clip and being fast enough. It's extremely easy to corner a ninja and kill him within a few hits, as long as you're fast enough and don't allow them to jump too often. I simply say you need some exercise against them. Again, ninja's are annoying but not OP in any way. 1. They use Usako & Angeling, you use Cursed Water. Problem solved. Good with Stave or Melee. If you're on a holy light build your melee won't do shit. Even shadow stave vs angeling usakoring does no damage whatsoever. Feel free to try this if you please :) Stave is only good when people use gtb. If they don't it's damage won't reach anywhere high enough to make a kill.2. It's a lot easier to tweak things than it is to buff everything without starting an epidemic. What you mean is it's easier to complain about things that you find annoying instead of learning how to deal with them and actually increasing the versatility of classes :).Extremely easy to beat for who? You kind've contradicted yourself there. Yes, they need tarot to force people to gtb.. But the problem is that GTB only nullifies ONE of X amount of effects. The coma alone is more than enough to force someone to gtb, which idk if you've noticed but even with anti sniping I take 12k AVs with gtb on. There's been no contradictions whatsoever. Extremely easy to beat the tarotting clown/gypsy. Not the other way around, obviously. I've fought plenty of ninjas, they aren't easy to counter nor easy to kill. They're the most defensive class in the game, with 0 cooldown on their defensive abilities. The only 2 classes that can actually kill them effectively are Bard/Gypsies & WS. Again, if please show me any ninja and i'll show you how to deal with them with other classes. :3 ALSO, on another note.. I don't think I've ever seen you PvP, and I've been one of the more active PvPers this past 4 months.. I mostly pvp on for fild as I don't like tryhard 10 man parties in pvp areas. If you know who I am then you've definitely seen me around. I'm on for_fild01 every day :)+1 To everything except backslide delays. Also, I definetly think something should be done about tarot, a minor delay plus what you suggested above seems like a good fix to me. A minor delay might be more appropriate if it really needs a nerf, but the other suggested effects are class breaking and I can not agree with, ever.I already did the math in one of my responses to another person who simply didn't do the math, but disagreed with the suggestion based off nothing besides "that's their playstyle." Last but not least. you gave me a good chuckle with this one. As proven above your "calculations" are completely off. I base my arguments on how pvp actually works not on wrong numbers.
ThePerfectHit Posted June 13, 2014 Author Report Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Doesn't matter since apparently you can't suggest this so just close the topic. Already knew most of the comments on this thread would come from people who don't pvp anyway, or haven't recently. Oh well, was worth a try. Edited June 13, 2014 by ThePerfectHit
Igopewpew Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 I pvp every day at for_fild01. If you don't know who I am it's not my fault ^_^ Again I like how you jump to conclusions based on absolutely nothing. How can you know whether people faced certain things in pvp before or that they don't pvp at all? It just all adds up that you are annoyed of facing things instead of actually considering balance and are just bringing up random arguments such as "you know nothing, you don't pvp" while you don't even know the person.. 1
Zombee Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 If you're on a holy light build your melee won't do shit. Even shadow stave vs angeling usakoring does no damage whatsoever. Feel free to try this if you please :) Stave is only good when people use gtb. If they don't it's damage won't reach anywhere high enough to make a kill.What you mean is it's easier to complain about things that you find annoying instead of learning how to deal with them and actually increasing the versatility of classes :).There's been no contradictions whatsoever. Extremely easy to beat the tarotting clown/gypsy. Not the other way around, obviously. Again, if please show me any ninja and i'll show you how to deal with them with other classes. :3I mostly pvp on for fild as I don't like tryhard 10 man parties in pvp areas. If you know who I am then you've definitely seen me around. I'm on for_fild01 every day :) Umm, yes it will. Not my fault you choose to go glass cannon. Not even needed with SL. Class versatility? You know nothing about that, look at your above statement. l0l Really, there haven't been? You seem to be pretty good at it to me. Beating Casterina doesn't even count as beating a Gypsy because she doesn't even have half a brain. Beat a Gypsy on anything but a Crit SinX. They shit on pretty much everything with their dispel bypassing gtb. Lol, sure. Define easy. Hmm, if you are who I think you are then I doubt it. & To the other person who says Creators can take ninjas, highly unlikely. Lmfao.
Igopewpew Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 Umm, yes it will. Not my fault you choose to go glass cannon. Not even needed with SL. Class versatility? You know nothing about that, look at your above statement. l0l My priest is a melee priest, the only one on the server that is. This proofs how little you know. Also please look up what class versatility means, you don't seem to understand the term :) Really, there haven't been? You seem to be pretty good at it to me. Beating Casterina doesn't even count as beating a Gypsy because she doesn't even have half a brain. Beat a Gypsy on anything but a Crit SinX. They shit on pretty much everything with their dispel bypassing gtb. This proofs your unknowing even more. I didn't fight a gypsy called Casterina and I don't use a crit sinx. So This is the ultimate proof of you jumping to conclusions without knowing anything. Easy - Without much effort. :) Hmm, if you are who I think you are then I doubt it. & To the other person who says Creators can take ninjas, highly unlikely. Lmfao. Well, obviously, you're wrong :) If you're any good at creator like Ray or myself then you'd know better :). This is turning way too much in a personal discussion. I think I've proven enough that you want changes because you're annoyed at them. Not because they are imbalanced. And I've proven enough that you jump to conclusions without anything backing it up, therefore I'll rest my case on this topic.
Zombee Posted June 14, 2014 Report Posted June 14, 2014 My priest is a melee priest, the only one on the server that is. This proofs how little you know. Also please look up what class versatility means, you don't seem to understand the term :) This proofs your unknowing even more. I didn't fight a gypsy called Casterina and I don't use a crit sinx. So This is the ultimate proof of you jumping to conclusions without knowing anything. Easy - Without much effort. :) Well, obviously, you're wrong :) If you're any good at creator like Ray or myself then you'd know better :). This is turning way too much in a personal discussion. I think I've proven enough that you want changes because you're annoyed at them. Not because they are imbalanced. And I've proven enough that you jump to conclusions without anything backing it up, therefore I'll rest my case on this topic. If you're built only for one or the other, you're not versatile..Wasn't jumping to conclusions, just stating that the only active gypsy in field isn't the best example. I never said gypsies were impossible, just that it needs an adjustment. Now that I know who you are, its a no brainer why you'd disagree. You're giving a biased opinion, as you're a tarot hero yourself. How am I wrong? Any good ninja wouldn't give a creator the chance.
Igopewpew Posted June 14, 2014 Report Posted June 14, 2014 If you're built only for one or the other, you're not versatile.. No this means that you're not in a hybrid build. A class being versatile means that the class is viable in multiple builds, that work differently. Such as a melee build for priests and a holy light build for priests. Savey? :) Now that I know who you are, its a no brainer why you'd disagree. You're giving a biased opinion, as you're a tarot hero yourself. As stated before in this topic I play basically every class, so I know how to deal with every class as well. I hardly ever play my gypsy but If you think that is the reason why I want the class to be balanced then feel free to think so. It's not like I main multiple different classes before my gypsy or anything. :)How am I wrong? Any good ninja wouldn't give a creator the chance. I've just shown ThePerfectHit, how to fight a ninja on for example, champion. If you need some advice on it (since you play champion yourself mostly) I'd be happy to show you or tell you :).
wizzycrei Posted June 14, 2014 Report Posted June 14, 2014 how those people can kill a ninja if they dont have consistency? :D you guys just want to kill it easily. try to use ninja and see if its really easy to survive. it takes only one wrong move and ninja can get killed easily plus even if u use flip tatami and you walked out to it creator can easily kill you :)
