Only Nd Ring Can Be Use By Super Novice

[Biomehanika]

And don't forget that they can equip weapons of certain classes when linked as well.

[ChainBreak]

I was wondering why noone ever got the idea to use WS build on SN.

[nilo16]

Probably cause u don't have the ws self buffs or cart termination skill.

[Lenneth]

I assume customized class specific weapons/rings are not meant for SNs. So +1 for a fix.

[Rayray]

^ Exactly. There are a lot of things to consider if we allow them to wear customized weapons and rings. On top of my head: I can wear wizard highness to gain deluge/volcano. Seriously not good considering the items are not removed even you get dispelled.

[heha]

lucky they can't equip bio valk weapon. If not everyone would be dead by just 1 bolt or 2 bolt.

Jormungandr’s Rage [4]

Str + 40, Int + 60, Increase Magic Attack damage by 20%, Enable use of Level 5 Fire Bolt, Enable use of Level 5 Cold Bolt, Increase damage with Fire Bolt by 30%, Increase damage with Cold Bolt by 30%, Increase damage with Mammonite by 65%, Increase damage with Acid Demonstration by 70%, Places Coma effect on its target by a .1% chance.

plus wiz bless ring and urd with 2 imp or siroma, they would be dealing you additional 95% damage on cold bolt or fire bolt. Can't imagine if they uses kafra hairband as well. keke.


ok now the thing that is needed to be implement is to make it auto unequip once the link is finish. That is supposingly how it suppose to work on SN. It is actually not a bug for them to equip those rings as stated in RMS, link for SN enables them to equip any kind of upper middle lower. As well as weapon that is up till level 4 (Staff, Axe, Mace, Sword). However it only last till the link duration has ended.

But what I would like to commend is that, this is a private server with lots of customize equipment to boost each and every different kind of class. So even if it does get implemented, I find that players that is using SN will still able to abuse it. All they need is just a link and they will be able to equip all class of equipments. They can also use card such as GTB to block dispell off the link.

So ultimately what i feel is that maybe GM can just remove off Super Novice Spirit from soul linker skill. Save your time on editing the bug problem as well.

And I do agree that maybe it's kind of unfair for SN to not having their own ring. However if this suggestion do get accepted, GM please try not to make it too OP. Please remember they already have the 2k additional stats.

Here are my suggestion, somehow similar to Non Donation Ring.


Walking speed +10%
Reduce Damage taken from Demihumans by 5%
Reduce Vit def by 10%
HP +5%
SP +10%
hit +50
int +20
Reflect 5% of damage
Increase Mammonite damage by 15%

Edited January 28, 2014 by heha

[markadik21]

they have many skill.... and good item.. with good % of magic added... and high hp.... i think changing that will be a fair play...and also curse and bless..they can using it ... but i think its a bug...

[tongenorga]

+1 to SN haters... too over powered....i always come at fild and they are always bully they bolt i see their damage goes to 10k-20k with mind breaker...grrrrrrrr

[Dus]

+1

One of my main is an SN but I do think its a little too much already for SN to be able to keep the effect of the Link when it wears off and for those who dont know what were talking about and just jumping in on the SN Haters Boat just because. Soul Linker's Super Novice Spirit allows SN above Lv.90 to temporarily wear any Upper/Middle/Lower Headgear and any Lv.4 Daggers, 1H Swords, Axes, Maces and Staff so technically It's not a bug that an SN can wear Class Specific Rings and Valkyrie Weapon since having this buff on lifts the restrictions of the said Items.

[Rayray]

The problem arises when the link is gone and the items are still equipped. This shouldn't be an issue if the items are automatically removed upon losing the link.

If it is possible to automatically remove the items when the link is gone, then that would be the solution.

Else, impose a debuff similar to what we have on sinx when they wear two blades. Make SN lose a huge amount of HP when using class specific rings and valkyrie weapons.

[Dus]

Well having the Restricted Item automatically unequip when the link wears of or dispelled is a nice approach however I can still see people complaining and asking for it to be totally remove since even with a GTB on SN can really tank. I mean there's the Strip Part but then again no SN will go and run amok in the field without having FCP on since your Beefy 500K HP can go down instantly to 5K HP when your armor gets stripped.

[Rayray]

^ Yeah i see the problem there, since even some LKs can tank on gtb shield. Then I firmly suggest my other option, put the hp debuff like in the sinx blades to SN's. That way, when they can still wear the rings and whatnots, but get penalized by low hp. I think that balances it out. Want uber damage, go ring but lose hp. Want tanky and have moderate damage, don't use rings.

[markadik21]

time ticking at SN ...HAHAHAHA ....

[Kayla Minerre]

While I do agree that they are pretty OP, there are quite a few different solutions to solve this that don't involve nerfing their ability to wear rings. Remove the ability for siroma/imp cards to work like professors (that's your main buff, right there). Removing the kafra band would work, but they become susceptible to freeze and stone curse with that on, and, regardless, most SN don't use the band. The hp bonus that the rings give is negligible (tao is the only thing that gives any decent hp to them).

Now, if we apply an hp nerf to novies like so many of you are suggesting, then they wouldn't be able to survive any asura without some serious redux; they barely have any hp without two taos. Nerfing their eligible matk through removal of the siroma/imp, and lowering the bonus on the Rabbit as well would be the best step towards killing their huge damage. After that, we'd have to do something about their flee, because, honestly, that's their biggest boon. Novices go down easy once you're able to hit them, especially if you reflect their magic.

Besides, if we remove their ability to wear anything but ND rings, then you'd have to create a ring centered around the SN, or it would be relatively unfair. Every other job has a ring, so why not a novice ring? Because they can wear almost anything they need. Remove one of their biggest assets, that being the ability to equip many different items, and nobody will play them, which goes against everything that the server stands for in regards to balance.

tl;dr: Removing everything they can do is bad. Kill some of their matk bonuses and flee, but leave the HP intact. If none of those, then remove the extra 2k stats.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Kayla Minerre

[Zombee]

They shouldnt have exceeded 200k hp imo, but whatever.

[Rayray]

While I do agree that they are pretty OP, there are quite a few different solutions to solve this that don't involve nerfing their ability to wear rings. Remove the ability for siroma/imp cards to work like professors (that's your main buff, right there). Removing the kafra band would work, but they become susceptible to freeze and stone curse with that on, and, regardless, most SN don't use the band. The hp bonus that the rings give is negligible (tao is the only thing that gives any decent hp to them).

Now, if we apply an hp nerf to novies like so many of you are suggesting, then they wouldn't be able to survive any asura without some serious redux; they barely have any hp without two taos. Nerfing their eligible matk through removal of the siroma/imp, and lowering the bonus on the Rabbit as well would be the best step towards killing their huge damage. After that, we'd have to do something about their flee, because, honestly, that's their biggest boon. Novices go down easy once you're able to hit them, especially if you reflect their magic.

Besides, if we remove their ability to wear anything but ND rings, then you'd have to create a ring centered around the SN, or it would be relatively unfair. Every other job has a ring, so why not a novice ring? Because they can wear almost anything they need. Remove one of their biggest assets, that being the ability to equip many different items, and nobody will play them, which goes against everything that the server stands for in regards to balance.

tl;dr: Removing everything they can do is bad. Kill some of their matk bonuses and flee, but leave the HP intact. If none of those, then remove the extra 2k stats.

SN is already strong enough without needing rings. They become OP the moment they used the rings that have bonuses not intended for the SN class. That is the main point here. I do not really see them needing rings.

I don't even have problems with their flee. It's their ability to dish out tons of damage while having near paladin hp without using too much vit that is the problem. And not letting them wear the class specific rings solves this issue.

Their biggest asset is not being able to equip anything, it is their HP and skills. Keep in mind that soul link isn't supposed to be readily available(we have it cuz we can dual client). Also, they are supposed to be able to wear them WHILE having the buff. At the moment, they can wear it even if the buff is gone.

Again, as I said before, it isn't a nerf if we remove their ability to wear stuff that are not intended for them. Rings give buffs to the classes that wear them, because they need it. They created the stats of the rings not considering if an SN wears it. Imo, they should put a different effect if an SN wears a ring.

[tongenorga]

agree with these... i dont like sn at all...

[Kayla Minerre]

SN is already strong enough without needing rings. They become OP the moment they used the rings that have bonuses not intended for the SN class. That is the main point here. I do not really see them needing rings.

I don't even have problems with their flee. It's their ability to dish out tons of damage while having near paladin hp without using too much vit that is the problem. And not letting them wear the class specific rings solves this issue.

Their biggest asset is not being able to equip anything, it is their HP and skills. Keep in mind that soul link isn't supposed to be readily available(we have it cuz we can dual client). Also, they are supposed to be able to wear them WHILE having the buff. At the moment, they can wear it even if the buff is gone.

Again, as I said before, it isn't a nerf if we remove their ability to wear stuff that are not intended for them. Rings give buffs to the classes that wear them, because they need it. They created the stats of the rings not considering if an SN wears it. Imo, they should put a different effect if an SN wears a ring.

The thing is, they aren't really that strong until they stack everything on top of each other. Before we had the kafra band, the rings, and slotted accessories, they could barely tickle anything. They were one of those 'haha I'm cute' classes. Sure, they could tank an asura without a gr, but they couldn't kill anything. None that I ever saw could, anyway, and I've been here for quite some time. If you take away the ring, assuming they're using the ninja magic ring, you cut their 12k damage down to like, 10k, also assuming they're wearing imp/siroma and the kafra band with dual fbh and kingrings. No class but an LK, Pally, or another SN could adequately tank that. Removing the ring isn't solving the problem, because the ring provides one of two buffs that are actually useful to them (mammo or matk%+). Pop the creator cursed ring on a baby and they aren't doing 100k/hit damage with mammo (if they're fully buffed, they may hit about 40k, which is what an average LK can do without full buffs on BB). Remove the kafra band, imp/siroma, and kingring cards (maybe even the matk bonus from fbh) and leave the rings and you have a professor without the double bolt, but the addition of hp.

Hell, with the creator blessed, bunny, and int belts, i do 3-4k on average with 260 int and 8-9k at MOST with mind breaker as long as they're wearing a shield.

tl;dr: The rings aren't the issue. They provide a palty bonus compared to everything else that you can stack upon everything else to boost magic damage. If anything needs to be removed, it's the stackability of various items together or the removal of siroma/imp effects from them.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Kayla Minerre

[Rayray]

The thing is, they aren't really that strong until they stack everything on top of each other. Before we had the kafra band, the rings, and slotted accessories, they could barely tickle anything. They were one of those 'haha I'm cute' classes. Sure, they could tank an asura without a gr, but they couldn't kill anything. None that I ever saw could, anyway, and I've been here for quite some time. If you take away the ring, assuming they're using the ninja magic ring, you cut their 12k damage down to like, 10k, also assuming they're wearing imp/siroma and the kafra band with dual fbh and kingrings. No class but an LK, Pally, or another SN could adequately tank that. Removing the ring isn't solving the problem, because the ring provides one of two buffs that are actually useful to them (mammo or matk%+). Pop the creator cursed ring on a baby and they aren't doing 100k/hit damage with mammo (if they're fully buffed, they may hit about 40k, which is what an average LK can do without full buffs on BB). Remove the kafra band, imp/siroma, and kingring cards (maybe even the matk bonus from fbh) and leave the rings and you have a professor without the double bolt, but the addition of hp.

Hell, with the creator blessed, bunny, and int belts, i do 3-4k on average with 260 int and 8-9k at MOST with mind breaker as long as they're wearing a shield.

tl;dr: The rings aren't the issue. They provide a palty bonus compared to everything else that you can stack upon everything else to boost magic damage. If anything needs to be removed, it's the stackability of various items together or the removal of siroma/imp effects from them.

I find that hard to believe. I used SN, and killed people when I only used piamette ears, rucksack and urds. They do not need more damage. I don't think 4-8k bolts will "tickle", and that is on 10k matk.

Compared to profs and wizards, SN hp makes it so that they are not vulnerable to maya. With their skills and stat build, they can fight gtb users very easily.

They do not need increase in mammo and matk from the rings, the rabbit does that. They have lot of stat points to distribute. They only need 99 vit and they are set. That leaves room for high str and decent int. FBH card works for them unlike in profs, that instantly translates to 20% matk, and they don't need to switch shoes just to gain the 50% more damage from fbh(profs needs to switch to fbh when using stave). I assume the 40k+ mammo uses thanatos card. That's high, considering I hit 50k on average with my biochemist, and I have jrage. And why compare mammo to bowling bash? LKs uses high str to gain that damage, you only need a few amount to gain comparable damage. You can go high str and I am pretty sure your mammo would outdamage bowling bash.

3-4k bolts just by using INT belts? SN got lvl 10 bolts, so that translates to 40k damage each cast. Doesn't this just prove that they do not need the bonus from the rings since if you used urds with imp/siroma cards the damage would be huge?

They are also the only class with very high hp that is isn't countered by thanatos card. The only class besides Paladins that do not need to default GR. They already have tons of advantages, letting them wear class specific ring due to a buff is overkill.

We only had this problem WHEN people used the rings. If that isn't the issue, they would have voiced out their opinions earlier. They should have voiced out their opinions much, much earlier when I am using SN with Eidelic Wing if the HP and imp/siroma cards were the issue.

I do agree on one thing though, SN needs to be nerfed in a lot of areas. The hp given by tao is too huge, their ability to wear rings with the buff, their ability to gain every first job skill, and a lot more. It is true that we need to address the issue of balance to this class. But imo, the first step there is to fix the issue with the rings, then the hp given by tao and then limiting their skill points. But that's just me.

tl;dr The issue is the rings, else people have voiced out their opinions years ago when the buff on tao + urds + 2k stat points are all in the game.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Rayray

[Aerynth]

Well written, Ray,

[Kayla Minerre]

I find that hard to believe. I used SN, and killed people when I only used piamette ears, rucksack and urds. They do not need more damage. I don't think 4-8k bolts will "tickle", and that is on 10k matk.

Compared to profs and wizards, SN hp makes it so that they are not vulnerable to maya. With their skills and stat build, they can fight gtb users very easily.

They do not need increase in mammo and matk from the rings, the rabbit does that. They have lot of stat points to distribute. They only need 99 vit and they are set. That leaves room for high str and decent int. FBH card works for them unlike in profs, that instantly translates to 20% matk, and they don't need to switch shoes just to gain the 50% more damage from fbh(profs needs to switch to fbh when using stave). I assume the 40k+ mammo uses thanatos card. That's high, considering I hit 50k on average with my biochemist, and I have jrage. And why compare mammo to bowling bash? LKs uses high str to gain that damage, you only need a few amount to gain comparable damage. You can go high str and I am pretty sure your mammo would outdamage bowling bash.

3-4k bolts just by using INT belts? SN got lvl 10 bolts, so that translates to 40k damage each cast. Doesn't this just prove that they do not need the bonus from the rings since if you used urds with imp/siroma cards the damage would be huge?

They are also the only class with very high hp that is isn't countered by thanatos card. The only class besides Paladins that do not need to default GR. They already have tons of advantages, letting them wear class specific ring due to a buff is overkill.

We only had this problem WHEN people used the rings. If that isn't the issue, they would have voiced out their opinions earlier. They should have voiced out their opinions much, much earlier when I am using SN with Eidelic Wing if the HP and imp/siroma cards were the issue.

I do agree on one thing though, SN needs to be nerfed in a lot of areas. The hp given by tao is too huge, their ability to wear rings with the buff, their ability to gain every first job skill, and a lot more. It is true that we need to address the issue of balance to this class. But imo, the first step there is to fix the issue with the rings, then the hp given by tao and then limiting their skill points. But that's just me.

tl;dr The issue is the rings, else people have voiced out their opinions years ago when the buff on tao + urds + 2k stat points are all in the game.

All you see is the rings in the issue. Again, if you take off the rings, but keep everything else, you are still going to hit for 10k+ damage. The only reason people started complaining about the rings is because there was a sudden influx of Super Babies once they found out they could use the rings and all of the armor in a combo.

Now, a fully gear prof with highness, cursed ring, fbh (for stave, because otherwise it just does nothing), and int belts had 19555 matk. I, as a baby with creator blessed, rabbit, int belts, and fbh with the matk bonus and no kingrings or imp/siroma, have 11961 (if I had a prof cursed my matk would be 13994 which would amount to about a 3-4k bolt at the most) matk on a mix build (the only way you'll have 'okay' damage with mammomite since I have 260 int and 230 str). My mammo deals around 20k (which is only a few thousand damage over the average damage of stave crasher on gtb) on gtb that way (3xtg and incan) and my bolts hit for about 2-3k on standard armor (tao/friggs). The professor hits for 7-8k on the same standard armor, multiplied twice for double bolt. Keep that in mind as I go into the next part. That professor switched to her baby who had the kafra band with the same equips and was a full magic build. She had 20XXX (I don't remember the last three digits, but it's a minuscule difference) matk with 300 int and the same gear as a prof, which dealt around 11-12k damage on the same standard-geared character. She had 130 str, which would have amounted to about 10k damage with mammomite if she had used it on a gtb'd player.

Okay, now let's look at this. We have me, doing about 3-4k bolt damage and 20k mammo damage on a mix build, a prof doing a total (including double bolts) of 14-16k damage with an int build and a typical 17-18k crasher damage, and a kafra band baby doing 11-12k bolt damage and 10k mammo damage with an int build. With all of that in mind, please tell me what the deciding issue is here. Is it the ring that makes the baby's damage 'okay' (it would be about 8k without the band) as compared to the 14-16k bolt damage? What is it that's causing the difference? It's the kafra band.

Now, even then, you can easily stop a baby's matk damage by going gtb or (full)reflect, which would probably kill them since most people can't tank their own magic (kinda sad). Everybody is whining about how OP they are when they're pretty easy to kill despite all of the whining. They only time they become a hassle is when you aren't prepared for it (like any class would do), or if they're in a gang (like any class would do).

tl;dr: Mix builds don't have the damage that you guys think they do. Specified builds don't have the flexibility that you guys think they do. Mix builds have gimp damage on both sides while specified builds are easily cut but gear choices.

Now, I'll admit that a pure mammo build is harder to kill since their flee is through the roof making them nearly impossible to counter outside of a gang between champ and mage, but all this whining about magic builds comes from a misconception about gear bonuses. I say just remove the kafra band and imp/siroma from them and find a way to lower their overall flee. It'll put full int builds down at the level of single 7-8k bolts (no matter what gear they wear otherwise) and make mammo builds more killable since they won't be able to dodge everything.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Kayla Minerre

[Aerynth]

I went on full reflect and with two devs on my cloak and they survive, it hit them with high damage and because of the 500k HP a SN has they are able to spam their seed to survive. They survived, so what's your point on players can't tank their own magic damge? If you're gonna argue about the damage is not high enough for Super Novices, they're hitting me with the damage that Proff's bolt dealt on me and they died on my reflect. As for now, Super Novices are still able to use double FBH cards and with the additional Kafra Headband, not mentioning about the Rings here. What more do you want to give Super Novices? And of course we're complaining about the ring as the issue, because it is an issue. That's the whole point of the topic at hand here.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Aerynth

[Rayray]

All you see is the rings in the issue. Again, if you take off the rings, but keep everything else, you are still going to hit for 10k+ damage. The only reason people started complaining about the rings is because there was a sudden influx of Super Babies once they found out they could use the rings and all of the armor in a combo.

Now, a fully gear prof with highness, cursed ring, fbh (for stave, because otherwise it just does nothing), and int belts had 19555 matk. I, as a baby with creator blessed, rabbit, int belts, and fbh with the matk bonus and no kingrings or imp/siroma, have 11961 (if I had a prof cursed my matk would be 13994 which would amount to about a 3-4k bolt at the most) matk on a mix build (the only way you'll have 'okay' damage with mammomite since I have 260 int and 230 str). My mammo deals around 20k (which is only a few thousand damage over the average damage of stave crasher on gtb) on gtb that way (3xtg and incan) and my bolts hit for about 2-3k on standard armor (tao/friggs). The professor hits for 7-8k on the same standard armor, multiplied twice for double bolt. Keep that in mind as I go into the next part. That professor switched to her baby who had the kafra band with the same equips and was a full magic build. She had 20XXX (I don't remember the last three digits, but it's a minuscule difference) matk with 300 int and the same gear as a prof, which dealt around 11-12k damage on the same standard-geared character. She had 130 str, which would have amounted to about 10k damage with mammomite if she had used it on a gtb'd player.

Okay, now let's look at this. We have me, doing about 3-4k bolt damage and 20k mammo damage on a mix build, a prof doing a total (including double bolts) of 14-16k damage with an int build and a typical 17-18k crasher damage, and a kafra band baby doing 11-12k bolt damage and 10k mammo damage with an int build. With all of that in mind, please tell me what the deciding issue is here. Is it the ring that makes the baby's damage 'okay' (it would be about 8k without the band) as compared to the 14-16k bolt damage? What is it that's causing the difference? It's the kafra band.

Now, even then, you can easily stop a baby's matk damage by going gtb or (full)reflect, which would probably kill them since most people can't tank their own magic (kinda sad). Everybody is whining about how OP they are when they're pretty easy to kill despite all of the whining. They only time they become a hassle is when you aren't prepared for it (like any class would do), or if they're in a gang (like any class would do).

tl;dr: Mix builds don't have the damage that you guys think they do. Specified builds don't have the flexibility that you guys think they do. Mix builds have gimp damage on both sides while specified builds are easily cut but gear choices.

Now, I'll admit that a pure mammo build is harder to kill since their flee is through the roof making them nearly impossible to counter outside of a gang between champ and mage, but all this whining about magic builds comes from a misconception about gear bonuses. I say just remove the kafra band and imp/siroma from them and find a way to lower their overall flee. It'll put full int builds down at the level of single 7-8k bolts (no matter what gear they wear otherwise) and make mammo builds more killable since they won't be able to dodge everything

Kafra band is easily countered, a ring on an SN is not. While kafra band might give better matk, the bonus on the rings for SN is better in a lot of ways.

I deal 4-8k bolts and 25k-40k mammos on my hybrid(i just tested). That damage is not high and not too low either. Keep in mind I do not have prof cursed ring so I can't test on that. full int builds of SN are so easy to kill that increasing their matk is pointless on a 1v1 situation. Again, the problem arises when people that went on hybrids wore rings. I can effectively increase my bolt damage to near that of an int build(sometimes even more) and yet have comparable mammo damage to a biochemist that uses jrage. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Hybrids are not supposed to deal huge damage on both magical and physical. This is not counting mind breaker of course.

Also, let us not compare figures and eliminating stuff that can be used. We should compare stuff when they are at it's utmost potential. Never compare figures when one side is definitely favorable. Of course a prof with full gears will have higher matk, it is an int class. But does that mean it will beat the SN? Tons of stuff in your sample calculations are missing.

1. Stat build of the SN

2. Stat build of the Prof

3. Cards used

4. Gears used

5. Strategy and use of the class

Comparing them using JUST the matk is pointless. That's like saying my soul linker is better than both that prof and SN because I had 22k matk on it.

And you are also sugar coating it a bit. Of course, an SN using int belts and just ring will seem not OP in terms of damage. What about SN that is fully geared with a weapon for magic and mammonite(one thana and one non- thana), urds/lokis with imp/siroma cards, has kafra band to switch to when needed and has rings? My SN is fully geared but without the ring, I was never called OP in fild. Which led me to believe that the ring gives a lot of bonuses that people noticed it already.

Maybe it isn't clear. We are not talking about JUST the matk of SNs using rings. We all know matk does a random damage depending on the range of its matk. We are talking about being able to increase the magic and physical damage of SN WITHOUT having disadvantages. Kafra band has a big disadvantage so that is out of the question.

One more thing: SNs have carts. They do not have to deal with the fact of not having enough seeds. And most can get high str + increase weight limit as well.

I probably just have to point out my arguments here, since we might go in circles.

1. The rings gives bonuses to certain classes, the devs didn't count on it being used for SN, hence with the bonus on the rings, SN became more OP than it already is. They are not supposed to wear the rings in the first place, removing it will not hinder SN in any way.

2. Removal of the rings for SN is just the first step on balancing the class.

3. If i can have my way, I will reduce the bonus given by tgk card along with it.

4. Limiting skill points for SN should also be considered. They get 2k stat points and we give them buffs and stuff?

[Kayla Minerre]

I went on full reflect and with two devs on my cloak and they survive, it hit them with high damage and because of the 500k HP a SN has they are able to spam their seed to survive. They survived, so what's your point on players can't tank their own magic damge? If you're gonna argue about the damage is not high enough for Super Novices, they're hitting me with the damage that Proff's bolt dealt on me and they died on my reflect. As for now, Super Novices are still able to use double FBH cards and with the additional Kafra Headband, not mentioning about the Rings here. What more do you want to give Super Novices? And of course we're complaining about the ring as the issue, because it is an issue. That's the whole point of the topic at hand here.

Did you even read what I said?

What was it that caused the dramatic damage increase? The ring adds about 1k, maybe 2k damage if they've super pumped up every possible item they can for it. That is a paltry sum compared to the kafra band. Complaining about adding the rings to the super babies would be like complaining about adding the rings to LKs. My LK can tank a party of 6+ and still take them all out, especially with the added bonus of the ring's damage and stats, but it's when something new comes around that people have troubles. And you're still saying prof's bolt. Yes, one of the bolts and that's ONLY if they're full int. If they go full int, then gtb ruins them. They can't kill you with anything else they have unless they have a gang or strip your shield, the shield being easily protected by a fcp.

There wasn't a problem with baby classes until recently because nobody played them. Now that they're playable, everybody is up in arms because of something that's easily countered. You can get 95% magic reflect. 95%. Add your normal damage on top of that and no baby is going to survive.

Kafra band is easily countered, a ring on an SN is not. While kafra band might give better matk, the bonus on the rings for SN is better in a lot of ways.

I deal 4-8k bolts and 25k-40k mammos on my hybrid(i just tested). That damage is not high and not too low either. Keep in mind I do not have prof cursed ring so I can't test on that. full int builds of SN are so easy to kill that increasing their matk is pointless on a 1v1 situation. Again, the problem arises when people that went on hybrids wore rings. I can effectively increase my bolt damage to near that of an int build(sometimes even more) and yet have comparable mammo damage to a biochemist that uses jrage. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Hybrids are not supposed to deal huge damage on both magical and physical. This is not counting mind breaker of course.

Also, let us not compare figures and eliminating stuff that can be used. We should compare stuff when they are at it's utmost potential. Never compare figures when one side is definitely favorable. Of course a prof with full gears will have higher matk, it is an int class. But does that mean it will beat the SN? Tons of stuff in your sample calculations are missing.

1. Stat build of the SN

2. Stat build of the Prof

3. Cards used

4. Gears used

5. Strategy and use of the class

Comparing them using JUST the matk is pointless. That's like saying my soul linker is better than both that prof and SN because I had 22k matk on it.

And you are also sugar coating it a bit. Of course, an SN using int belts and just ring will seem not OP in terms of damage. What about SN that is fully geared with a weapon for magic and mammonite(one thana and one non- thana), urds/lokis with imp/siroma cards, has kafra band to switch to when needed and has rings? My SN is fully geared but without the ring, I was never called OP in fild. Which led me to believe that the ring gives a lot of bonuses that people noticed it already.

Maybe it isn't clear. We are not talking about JUST the matk of SNs using rings. We all know matk does a random damage depending on the range of its matk. We are talking about being able to increase the magic and physical damage of SN WITHOUT having disadvantages. Kafra band has a big disadvantage so that is out of the question.

One more thing: SNs have carts. They do not have to deal with the fact of not having enough seeds. And most can get high str + increase weight limit as well.

I probably just have to point out my arguments here, since we might go in circles.

1. The rings gives bonuses to certain classes, the devs didn't count on it being used for SN, hence with the bonus on the rings, SN became more OP than it already is. They are not supposed to wear the rings in the first place, removing it will not hinder SN in any way.

2. Removal of the rings for SN is just the first step on balancing the class.

3. If i can have my way, I will reduce the bonus given by tgk card along with it.

4. Limiting skill points for SN should also be considered. They get 2k stat points and we give them buffs and stuff?

Let me start with the points at the bottom, first.

1. But were the bonuses even necessary for the original classes? There's all this talk of balancing everything out, but all it does is add huge bonuses to other classes while still leaving the classes that need even bigger bonuses in the dust. The ring bonuses are paltry on a SN, since the only things that help them are the one of two stats or matk/mammo damage.

3. I already touched on this. If you lower the hp bonus, SN's will never survive any asura. 'But blah blah counter by asura blah blah'. What class now is 100% vulnerable to asura with a gr/tao, rays, and usa/fking or friggs? None. Every class has enough hp to survive at least one asura on that build. Lower the hp bonus of SN and it drops their gr/tao hp to less than 150k, which is an instant death vs asura, since a typical full asura will do 150k+ on that setup.

4. I'm fine with limiting the points of SN's. It's what I said in my first post.

Now, onwards. I told you my stats, and the other super novice's stats. Mine: 230 str, 260 int. Baby's 300 int, 130 str. I believe the prof's was 280 int, 100 str, or something around there. I may be off by a bit since it's been a few hours. Assuming they focused the rest of that into typical stats, it'd be max aspd, enough dex for instant cast, and then enough vit for about ~200k hp. I already went into the gear as well, or did you just not read? The cloak doesn't matter. I told you int belts. The helm only matters if it's a kafra band. I told you the shoes and what were in them, and I told the you the weapons. I didn't ask what was in the weapon she used, because she just transferred her prof highness. She didn't have kingrings on, because those don't work for professors. The armor doesn't matter, and the shield doesn't matter. We tested our damage against a champ. Friggs, tao/gr, cloak doesn't matter, shoes don't matter, helm doesn't matter (wasn't redux helm), belts don't matter, and weapon doesn't matter. He didn't have a ring, so the damage was 5% stronger than it would have been on anybody else (paltry difference). And I also told you the builds aka strategy. You just blatantly ignored everything I typed, didn't you? (Also, I like how you didn't post your stats while falsely accusing me of doing the same.)

There aren't any drastic buffs on those rings that give them any sort of major advantage. All of their power comes from what they already had. Sure, with a ring you can gain 1-2k extra damage per bolt, but that isn't as much as you think. ALL of the new things are what makes the babies over-powered combined with ALL of the things they previously had. It's not one specific item. You aren't even singling out the most important things that are there, the things that were already nerfed for another class, because they were too powerful. They nerfed siroma/imp, fbh, kingrings, and the kafra band for professor, but they still added the rings for them with that matk bonus. Take away the same thing for super novices and you have a character with half the damage ability of a prof, but has the added bonus of hp.

As for the damages that you're quoting, you're talking about things that the professor doesn't have. For a reason. Remove the ring from the picture and, instead of being able to do 4-8k damage, you're doing 3-7k per bolt and 19-34k per mammo, assuming I can even believe that high mammo damage outside of thana. THE RING IS NOT THE ISSUE. If it was, they never would have introduced it to the professor in the first place.

Bringing it full circle, it's not the ring that should be removed, it's what they already removed from professors and/or those bonus stats.

tl;dr: You keep looking at it narrow-mindedly, something I'm surprised at considering your typical input in most of these threads. It's not one individual item that's making them OP, it's the culmination of all of it.

[Shadi]

Alright this topic has some pretty good points and I'll share my opinion on this.

I think anyone with a clear mind sees that something has to be done about supernovices, especially superbabies. Now I've read the arguments that went back and forth between Ray and Kayla and I can actually agree with both of them.

It is true that SN were strong but not considered as 'OP' before they started using the rings. In my honest opinion the rings are the thing that cause supernovices to go over the top. However, that doesn't mean that removing the rings from supernovices is the best way to re-balance it. Removing the rings from them would also require (as far as I know) every ring and cape item to be edited individually to have no effects for supernovices. Is this the best solution? I don't know.

I think that removing imp/siroma cards would be a big first step to reduce their way too high magic damage. But just having high matk is not what makes them OP. It's a combination of many things. In my opinion it's a combination of the following in random order:

1: They have skills to use for every situation, offensive and defensive.

2: They have additional stats

3: They are receiving buffs that are not supposed to be for their class

4: They have the same HP as the tankiest class in the game without the use of vit and with a way higher damage output.

5: Due to their low vit they'll never need skolls. While having the same HP as a full vit pally, they remain untouched by thanatos even without skolls

Now there's multiple ways to fix this issue. Each of the solutions mentioned below will somewhat re-balance the class. These solutions are seperate and are not supposed to be seen as combined solutions:

1: Remove the use of other class-rings by the supernovice class

2: Remove siroma/imp effects for SN

3: Change the tao gunka effect to make SN more like other classes. By this I mean Add more HP by 1 tao gunka card but cancel the effect when 2 tao cards are worn. What will this do? It'll lower the overall HP from a SN leaving them more vurnerable to reflect from their own damage and gangs, and giving them the option to use GR without dropping to 150k hp. This way they can still survive at least 1 asura but they can not brainlessly spam their bolts without having to care about reflect. It also gives other classes aside from champs a bigger chance vs SN because right now the 600k+ HP is rediculous. My goal would be giving them around 240-250k hp with 1 tao/gr on 100 vit in total.

Also just to point 1 thing out: You never ever ever go reflect gear vs a SN in their current state. Any decent SN can NOT die by reflect from his own damage. Their HP pool is simply too big for that.