nellysky Posted June 12, 2013 Report Posted June 12, 2013 Just because you guys disagreed on it doesn't mean we are wrong on suggesting it. Of course I am gonna argue our point, which in fact none of the ninjas (except Supream) actually argued on with facts or proof, it is just plain "-1 ninjas are fine" without any good argument. BTW I argue my point repeatedly due to the fact that NONE of my points were actually answered correctly. I will put them in a numbered list please answer them with decent arguments and not just plain random "ninjas are fine". 1. CSS Delay: It renders any physical class besides merchant classes nulled. I propose having a small delay on CSS due to the fact that it dodges every physical attack except Cart Termination and Acid Bomb. A small delay, so that the ninja wouldn't be spamming it, that's it. Not 3-5 seconds delay because that is too much. Just enough so that the ninja will not be able to spam it, but it won't hinder the ninja too much. All other physical classes have problems with CSS being spammable. And as nellysky said, you wouldn't be spamming CSS in PvP anyway, so what was the harm on putting delay on it? If you wouldn't be spamming it, even if it has delay, you wouldn't feel anything right? 2. Flip Tatami: the counterpart of CSS for range attacks. This absolutely dodges ALL long range attacks. The fact that you can spam it makes no physical long range class will hit you as long as you use the skill. the skill effect lasts 3 seconds per cast, that means the ninja can go flip tatami>use skill> flip tatami endlessly. Proposing a delay on flip tatami due to this, at least a delay that makes use of the whole skill effect of tatami. Further arguments from me that makes me say that the delays are needed: a. we didn't ask to nerf any other skill of ninja. which makes your other defensive skills still as evasive as ever which includes shadow leap and illusory shadow. Add Hidden water skill on slowing melee characters. b. Ninjas have basic reducts that are available to other classes. Meaning, a ninja with usakoring friggs have the same reducts as an LK with usakoring friggs. They can wear shields, and yet they have evasive skills that are way too spammable. Those skills will not need delays IF AND ONLY IF Ninjas' defense compared to other classes is lower, which isn't the case here. c. Ability to be able to default GTB shield because CSS and Flip tatami are so spammable that they barely get hit by physical attacks except merchant classes type attacks. and then again, acid bomb is blocked by flip tatami. So a ninja can default GTB shield as long as there is no whitesmith. The only other classes that can default GTB shield is soul linker and paladin. Soul linker because of it's auto resu, however, those do not work on every event, ninja defensive skill does, leap doesn't even move you a cell in pvp room or woe. Paladin can default gtb shield due to their massive HP and defensive skills. Are ninjas intended to be somewhat as tanky as paladins due to their evasive skills? d. We made mage type classes able to combat GTB shield using stave crasher among other stuff. All Mage type characters can fight any class that uses gtb with stave crasher. All, except ninja due css and flip tatami. A fully geared prof will not kill, even damage a ND geared ninja as long as the ninja defaults gtb and spams css and flip tatami. e. Ninja HP isn't really bad, unless of course you went 300 str or 300 Int. Soul Linkers and Wizards have crappier HP than Ninjas, both classes have defensive skills, but nothing compared to css and flip tatami. f. availability of @warp command makes it so that ninjas made it a 3rd evasive skill. put a delay on it when being hit or when player is hitting other people. You guessing ninjas are fine or just saying "ninjas are fine" will not get us anywhere. Just answer them with decent arguments please. since we are also insisting doesnt also mean our point where wrong. there are also other class says they can manage to kill a ninjas thought they are not merchant class.. very well said bro.. but as long css and flip tatami is on at the same time range attact such arrow will do the same.. only acid bomb will only have the benefit.. wel yeah thers no nid of continues or spamfast on CSS so what is the use of nerfing it?
ChainBreak Posted June 12, 2013 Report Posted June 12, 2013 You didn't get my point. Unless you fight alongside a different distance type class you still won't be able to hit a ninja therefor your suggestion won't solve anything . Sinx has more skills than left click and sb.
Rayray Posted June 12, 2013 Report Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) do something on bio remove heavens drive delay acid and fire bolt col bolt that the best for this suggestions hahaha Oh sure, put a delay on acid bomb, as long as you allow bios to enchant it with element, I won't mind. :) I really like your idiotic responses. Well I kinda understand how you hate my biochemist, you cannot do anything against me in pvp room anyway, and you just warp out in for_fild :) I don't even understand why some people think you are actually good at using ninja. nellysky has better control and he is a magic ninja. since we are also insisting doesnt also mean our point where wrong. there are also other class says they can manage to kill a ninjas thought they are not merchant class.. very well said bro.. but as long css and flip tatami is on at the same time range attact such arrow will do the same.. only acid bomb will only have the benefit.. wel yeah thers no nid of continues or spamfast on CSS so what is the use of nerfing it? and sadly, i put a long post and you didn't answer them one by one. again, CSS shouldn't be spammed, correct, but people spam it, no use denying it. So adding a delay on a skill that is not supposed to be for spamming has no harm. it won't affect you if you don't spam it, as you say you don't. the issue is not about killing the ninja, every class can do that at some point. the issue here is the effort to be done when killing a ninja, when the ninja just uses 2 buttons to survive. Edited June 12, 2013 by Rayray
nellysky Posted June 13, 2013 Report Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) Oh sure, put a delay on acid bomb, as long as you allow bios to enchant it with element, I won't mind. :) I really like your idiotic responses. Well I kinda understand how you hate my biochemist, you cannot do anything against me in pvp room anyway, and you just warp out in for_fild :) I don't even understand why some people think you are actually good at using ninja. nellysky has better control and he is a magic ninja. and sadly, i put a long post and you didn't answer them one by one. again, CSS shouldn't be spammed, correct, but people spam it, no use denying it. So adding a delay on a skill that is not supposed to be for spamming has no harm. it won't affect you if you don't spam it, as you say you don't. the issue is not about killing the ninja, every class can do that at some point. the issue here is the effort to be done when killing a ninja, when the ninja just uses 2 buttons to survive. i guest no nid to answer for a long rison if i can answer it in a simple and brief way.. maybe u also cant get my exact point.. spamming on css s useless for the char is knocking back on 1 hit. since it is a buff u just only need to press the skill wen the buffs gone.. and oh puting delay on css will definitely kill fast "on corners" :)..but u can still kill ninja on corners without delays then...hehehe 2 buttons? yeah they can survive but they cant also kill som1.. u should be fast handed on using this char for this char works on combo's. and oh u mean 2 buttons right?.. how about 1 button for back slide? :) or it maybe 2 buttons also seed + backslide.. all char use buttons to survive anyway.. and the best surviving buton. no need spamming "Basilica"... note: im talking only on forfild not on any rooms and events for this isue was start on forfild.. :) Edited June 13, 2013 by nellysky
Rayray Posted June 13, 2013 Report Posted June 13, 2013 i guest no nid to answer for a long rison if i can answer it in a simple and brief way.. maybe u also cant get my exact point.. spamming on css s useless for the char is knocking back on 1 hit. since it is a buff u just only need to press the skill wen the buffs gone.. and oh puting delay on css will definitely kill fast "on corners" :)..but u can still kill ninja on corners without delays then...hehehe 2 buttons? yeah they can survive but they cant also kill som1.. u should be fast handed on using this char for this char works on combo's. and oh u mean 2 buttons right?.. how about 1 button for back slide? :) or it maybe 2 buttons also seed + backslide.. all char use buttons to survive anyway.. and the best surviving buton. no need spamming "Basilica"... note: im talking only on forfild not on any rooms and events for this isue was start on forfild.. :) You are the one who do not get my concern. CSS IS BEING SPAMMED, no use denying it, even if you as a ninja do not spam it, it is spammed by others. Either put a delay on it, or lessen the cells of pushback. A champ is the class that needs fast hand reactions, not ninjas. All classes uses buttons to survive, you should paraphrase that as it sounded wrong. All classes use skills to pvp, yes. But unlike ninja, we do not have the luxury of a skill that automatically evades attacks for us + push as back a few cells 3x which gives ninjas a breather. Example: My bio has to do spam acidbomb> ninja uses flip tatami> i go use homun using 3 buttons to summon, urgent escape and rest, go near the ninja and hit with mammo to push him back, use acidbomb again> use bolts if possible > switch to headgear with sight skill and switch back to normal headgear> go near using homun> mammo> and repeat this until I can either corner the ninja or he die from acid bomb. the ninja will just go CSS, Flip tatami> get hit>pushed back> spam kunai> when all CSS charges are gone, go hide>shadow leap and repeat. That's what I mean. Compared to the effort done by most classes just to hit the ninja, the ninja do not even exert as much effort as that. especially if the map is huge. backslide only makes you move back a few cells, if you got hit on a skill then, it will still hit you, CSS makes it miss, so it was a huge difference(as I killed sinx while they were backsliding).
nellysky Posted June 13, 2013 Report Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) You are the one who do not get my concern. CSS IS BEING SPAMMED, no use denying it, even if you as a ninja do not spam it, it is spammed by others. Either put a delay on it, or lessen the cells of pushback. A champ is the class that needs fast hand reactions, not ninjas. All classes uses buttons to survive, you should paraphrase that as it sounded wrong. All classes use skills to pvp, yes. But unlike ninja, we do not have the luxury of a skill that automatically evades attacks for us + push as back a few cells 3x which gives ninjas a breather. Example: My bio has to do spam acidbomb> ninja uses flip tatami> i go use homun using 3 buttons to summon, urgent escape and rest, go near the ninja and hit with mammo to push him back, use acidbomb again> use bolts if possible > switch to headgear with sight skill and switch back to normal headgear> go near using homun> mammo> and repeat this until I can either corner the ninja or he die from acid bomb. the ninja will just go CSS, Flip tatami> get hit>pushed back> spam kunai> when all CSS charges are gone, go hide>shadow leap and repeat. That's what I mean. Compared to the effort done by most classes just to hit the ninja, the ninja do not even exert as much effort as that. especially if the map is huge. backslide only makes you move back a few cells, if you got hit on a skill then, it will still hit you, CSS makes it miss, so it was a huge difference(as I killed sinx while they were backsliding). men you said it.. it not fast spamming CSS its buffing css wen effects gone.. your talking about the combo i mean.. :) see no nid of continues spamming of css. since uv using diff skill before and after pressing css button. the one wich is needed a spam is flip tatami. and kunai.. as long u had pneuma on ur ground throw types cant kill you. they cant even get near u. ofcorz css and backslide has a huge diff but what i mean is both skill is a defensive skill or a survival skill. and yeah u can kill sinx on backslide.. but u can kill more easy like a piece of cake a ninja with css.. since ur where a bio flip tatami will only makes ur acid miss but with some pneuma on ur ground throw ninja wont hurt u too.. if ninja wont let you kill them just dont let them kill you then.. to make it even... hehehhehe Edited June 13, 2013 by nellysky
Hypnosis Posted June 13, 2013 Report Posted June 13, 2013 Let's say, that they add the delay on warping when you get hitted, but the problem is, if you can't hti them hwo this will work? I mean...Even if you are even pushing them to a corner, they will just hit the button. So in order to this delay work, the skill need to be tweeked a bit so you can hit them and prevent from warpig.I appreciate your input and you make a very valid point. I didn't truly understand what you meant until I re-read a few times, and you are correct. But to be honest in all my personal experiences I've fought with ninjas they fight til they end up getting hit or are cornered, They rely on their skills like most classes is what I'm trying to say. You do make a good point, though.
Rayray Posted June 14, 2013 Report Posted June 14, 2013 men you said it.. it not fast spamming CSS its buffing css wen effects gone.. your talking about the combo i mean.. :) see no nid of continues spamming of css. since uv using diff skill before and after pressing css button. the one wich is needed a spam is flip tatami. and kunai.. as long u had pneuma on ur ground throw types cant kill you. they cant even get near u. ofcorz css and backslide has a huge diff but what i mean is both skill is a defensive skill or a survival skill. and yeah u can kill sinx on backslide.. but u can kill more easy like a piece of cake a ninja with css.. since ur where a bio flip tatami will only makes ur acid miss but with some pneuma on ur ground throw ninja wont hurt u too.. if ninja wont let you kill them just dont let them kill you then.. to make it even... hehehhehe Oh don't worry, as I was a student of Airi on Hybrid Bio, I don't have problems killing ninjas. But again, that was me, a bio who is fully geared. The reason why I am asking for CSS delay and Flip tatami is not for me, as you probably know, Acid Bomb goes through Cicada, a ninja has to spam flip tatami or he will get hit by me, so I don't have problems with it. The problem was with other classes. You can't keep on comparing my biochemist to them, that was way different, one of my skills goes through one of their defensive skills. Of course I will not have that much problems. . Any class can hit and fight any other class on equal grounds at the moment. Sure, any class can beat a ninja, but that usually happens when there is a huge difference in the players' skill and their gears(Like Airi on her champ). We wouldn't be having this discussion if at least one skill of every other class can go through one of the ninja's defensive skills. That isn't the case. If stave crasher at least goes through cicada(but is blocked by flip) then magic classes will be fine against ninja. if a skill of sniper goes through flip tatami(but not cicada) snipers will be fine too. But the way it is now, all skills of magic classes are blocked by a ninja wearing gtb, all skills of sniper is blocked by just flip tatami. .
Victoria Posted June 14, 2013 Report Posted June 14, 2013 men you said it.. it not fast spamming CSS its buffing css wen effects gone.. your talking about the combo i mean.. :) see no nid of continues spamming of css. since uv using diff skill before and after pressing css button. the one wich is needed a spam is flip tatami. and kunai.. as long u had pneuma on ur ground throw types cant kill you. they cant even get near u. ofcorz css and backslide has a huge diff but what i mean is both skill is a defensive skill or a survival skill. and yeah u can kill sinx on backslide.. but u can kill more easy like a piece of cake a ninja with css.. since ur where a bio flip tatami will only makes ur acid miss but with some pneuma on ur ground throw ninja wont hurt u too.. if ninja wont let you kill them just dont let them kill you then.. to make it even... hehehhehe Ehhh ninjas aren't useless when their opponent is on pneuma, do remember that Flip Tatami knockbacks if your opponent isn't wearing any RSX. you can just hop near them then use flip tatami .. problem solved :3
justaskpermission Posted June 14, 2013 Report Posted June 14, 2013 =) flip tatami is magic u can use gtb hehehe
Victoria Posted June 14, 2013 Report Posted June 14, 2013 =) flip tatami is magic u can use gtb hehehe then you will die faster when you got hit by throw kunai :)
justaskpermission Posted June 14, 2013 Report Posted June 14, 2013 u got pneuma =) maam hahaha ninja dont have fvcking dmg like other jobs =)
Victoria Posted June 14, 2013 Report Posted June 14, 2013 u got pneuma =) maam hahaha ninja dont have fvcking dmg like other jobs =) Aigoo =.= of course pneuma will disappear anytime, and they will have big damage if you are wearing GTB =.=
nellysky Posted June 14, 2013 Report Posted June 14, 2013 (edited) Ehhh ninjas aren't useless when their opponent is on pneuma, do remember that Flip Tatami knockbacks if your opponent isn't wearing any RSX. you can just hop near them then use flip tatami .. problem solved :3 still cant get near to the enemy wen the opponent is range. unless of using hide and shadow leap but its risky. then flip.. but u can still cast pneuma wen uv been knock back by flip and atack agin.. =) flip tatami is magic u can use gtb hehehe realy? men... i never thought that was. alright ninja has a very good defensive skill indeed. but it depends to the players hands and items on making it thats good. but ninja dont have offensive skill as good as any char does. range attack is lesser than other char range attack magic is lesser than others char magic. Edited June 14, 2013 by nellysky
Victoria Posted June 14, 2013 Report Posted June 14, 2013 still can get near to the wen the opponent is range. unless of using hide and shadow leap. then flip.. but u can still cast pneuma wen uv been knock back by flip and atack agin.. realy? men... i never thought that was. Lol you can always knockback and hit them again, and of course you're gonna use hide and shadow leap to get near them :3 errende ebecce card only autocasts pneuma with a low chance of 5% which means that there is a chance for you to hit them :3
nellysky Posted June 14, 2013 Report Posted June 14, 2013 Oh don't worry, as I was a student of Airi on Hybrid Bio, I don't have problems killing ninjas. But again, that was me, a bio who is fully geared. The reason why I am asking for CSS delay and Flip tatami is not for me, as you probably know, Acid Bomb goes through Cicada, a ninja has to spam flip tatami or he will get hit by me, so I don't have problems with it. The problem was with other classes. You can't keep on comparing my biochemist to them, that was way different, one of my skills goes through one of their defensive skills. Of course I will not have that much problems. . Any class can hit and fight any other class on equal grounds at the moment. Sure, any class can beat a ninja, but that usually happens when there is a huge difference in the players' skill and their gears(Like Airi on her champ). We wouldn't be having this discussion if at least one skill of every other class can go through one of the ninja's defensive skills. That isn't the case. If stave crasher at least goes through cicada(but is blocked by flip) then magic classes will be fine against ninja. if a skill of sniper goes through flip tatami(but not cicada) snipers will be fine too. But the way it is now, all skills of magic classes are blocked by a ninja wearing gtb, all skills of sniper is blocked by just flip tatami. . maybe ur right. ninja has a huge diff to others but i think thats ragnarok designed them to be.. hmm others classes has a way of defeating anyway like some giving ther opinion to this. although they are not a merchant class all they need is to know the way.. wel all mage type got a problem of gtb not only on ninjas.. yeah they can hit other using stave, but a chance of winning i dont think so..
Victoria Posted June 14, 2013 Report Posted June 14, 2013 maybe ur right. ninja has a huge diff to others but i think thats ragnarok designed them to be.. hmm others classes has a way of defeating anyway like some giving ther opinion to this. although they are not a merchant class all they need is to know the way.. wel all mage type got a problem of gtb not only on ninjas.. yeah they can hit other using stave, but a chance of winning i dont think so.. Giap can kill with stave quite fine, heha can too, i killed some using my prof back then and they end up running away, how could you say stave has a low chance to kill? O.o
nellysky Posted June 14, 2013 Report Posted June 14, 2013 Giap can kill with stave quite fine, heha can too, i killed some using my prof back then and they end up running away, how could you say stave has a low chance to kill? O.o i say a chance of winning. stave is a range if mage type were dealing with a real ranged char who do u think got a chance..? otherswise stave as not as fast as 195attck speed on spam.. unless by using of "u know it" not to mention.
Rayray Posted June 14, 2013 Report Posted June 14, 2013 maybe ur right. ninja has a huge diff to others but i think thats ragnarok designed them to be.. hmm others classes has a way of defeating anyway like some giving ther opinion to this. although they are not a merchant class all they need is to know the way.. wel all mage type got a problem of gtb not only on ninjas.. yeah they can hit other using stave, but a chance of winning i dont think so.. Never, EVER use the argument "ragnarok designed them to be" in this server, because that is wrong. fRO changed so many things that we are technically a separate entity from the original one. Sure, it was intended for ninjas to be that evasive, but it was never intended for them to have one handed fuuma shurikens, increased damage in both throw shuriken and throw kunai, acc with 40 str + slots, 2 slotted gears etc. I honestly never had problems against ninja on my High Wizard in iRO. but then again, this is a different server setup. If we wanted it back to what RO designed them to be, we will be nerfing everyone. All Mage types have problems with GTB, however, all mage type characters can hit any class with stave crasher, except that they cannot hit ninjas. See the difference? Sure, stave crasher will damage as low as 12k on incant and the only way for it to damage well is having thana. But at least it hits and does damage. That is my point. Against ninjas that defaulted gtb, no prof or wizard can hit with any of their skills including stave crasher. If flip and css have delays in place, a prof spamming stave crasher might be able to get a hit or two.
Victoria Posted June 15, 2013 Report Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) i say a chance of winning. stave is a range if mage type were dealing with a real ranged char who do u think got a chance..? otherswise stave as not as fast as 195attck speed on spam.. unless by using of "u know it" not to mention. Err, their the same :/ you said "a chance of winning i dont think so", which clearly states that you think they have a low chance to kill someone :/ and i can spam stave back then just fine, some even told me my spam is slow so that means it can still be faster. for prof, there's no problem with ranged chars since they have the Blinding Mist skill which makes them miss for sometime making it hard for them to hit you.. while for wizards, they have energy coat and certain stuffs that will let you live while fighting with a range char Edited June 15, 2013 by Victoria
nellysky Posted June 15, 2013 Report Posted June 15, 2013 Never, EVER use the argument "ragnarok designed them to be" in this server, because that is wrong. fRO changed so many things that we are technically a separate entity from the original one. Sure, it was intended for ninjas to be that evasive, but it was never intended for them to have one handed fuuma shurikens, increased damage in both throw shuriken and throw kunai, acc with 40 str + slots, 2 slotted gears etc. I honestly never had problems against ninja on my High Wizard in iRO. but then again, this is a different server setup. If we wanted it back to what RO designed them to be, we will be nerfing everyone. All Mage types have problems with GTB, however, all mage type characters can hit any class with stave crasher, except that they cannot hit ninjas. See the difference? Sure, stave crasher will damage as low as 12k on incant and the only way for it to damage well is having thana. But at least it hits and does damage. That is my point. Against ninjas that defaulted gtb, no prof or wizard can hit with any of their skills including stave crasher. If flip and css have delays in place, a prof spamming stave crasher might be able to get a hit or two. what i mean is ther good defensive skill is designed them to be that way that makes a huge diff to others class since other class dont posses that 1.. but all char are diff anyway. however there ofensive skill are not as much as others char do. like what iv mention above. and that makes them balance and not OP..
nellysky Posted June 15, 2013 Report Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) Err, their the same :/ you said "a chance of winning i dont think so", which clearly states that you think they have a low chance to kill someone :/ and i can spam stave back then just fine, some even told me my spam is slow so that means it can still be faster. for prof, there's no problem with ranged chars since they have the Blinding Mist skill which makes them miss for sometime making it hard for them to hit you.. while for wizards, they have energy coat and certain stuffs that will let you live while fighting with a range char well i guest so.. a chance to win or killing some1 with gtb is questionable.. even using stave and other skill, but is ther skills good enaf to win againts real range class?.. Edited June 15, 2013 by nellysky
Victoria Posted June 15, 2013 Report Posted June 15, 2013 well i guest so.. a chance to win or killing some1 with gtb is questionable.. even using stave and other skill is ther skills good enaf to win againts real range class?.. Yes, it is :) i myself feel more comfortable using stave crasher on range type jobs rather than melee classes, and maybe other stave types does too :)
nellysky Posted June 15, 2013 Report Posted June 15, 2013 Yes, it is :) i myself feel more comfortable using stave crasher on range type jobs rather than melee classes, and maybe other stave types does too :) realy? lol.. how come that build of range class can be beatin by a mage class.. all range skill such as, FAS, DS, RApid shower etc vs just stave? i realy cant imagine... how?
Victoria Posted June 15, 2013 Report Posted June 15, 2013 realy? lol.. how come that build of range class can be beatin by a mage class.. all range skill such as, FAS, DS, RApid shower etc vs just stave? i realy cant imagine... how? Its for you to explore :3 i already told you all their defensive skills against range and its your turn to think who will win and who would lose, but let me just say that they have an equal chance of winning.
