Do Something About Ninja Pls! ^o^

[Rayray]

A SMALL DELAY ON CSS AND FLIP TATAMI WILL NOT MAKE NINJA USELESS.

How the hell can you guys miss this point?

[nellysky]

wel actualy this is a sight of sharing ideas. u shares urs. i share mine..

ur class doin fine guys as u see lots of pipol uses it due to your char efectivness.

when i start on this server it is my 1st time to play this kind of class. no one uses this that make me think it was lacking of something like any char do.

I saw something about Gunslinger on here that we can kill this and that.

A geared gunslinger wins fights. You need to know what you're doing to win with a nb gunslinger. We're already missing a good chunk of our skill tree, so keep us out of this -__-;

Ninja needs a review because the only way to beat them with a Class other then WhiteSmith is to corner them, They have plenty of Defensive skills and yet you all still want more damage. The way it is in games is you sacrifice DMG for Defense or the other way around. All classes have some shortcomings of some type, but this class has less then the rest, That's the point alot of us have been trying to get across.

yeah i saw you.. ur gunslinger is about killing ulap. but im the one who saves him.. coz of u not wearing gtb.. but nice job dude.ur pretty good in GS.. u got an idea how to catch us.

A SMALL DELAY ON CSS AND FLIP TATAMI WILL NOT MAKE NINJA USELESS.

How the hell can you guys miss this point?

wel as u see that the best ninja capabilty.. if ur goin to put a delay it it will lessen ninjas ninjas effectivness..

-1 to that since some1 already manage to catch ninja and defeat ninja with out being nerf. besides they are not merchant class..

sometime it make me wonder that the 1 who is suggesting of nerfing ninja are merchant class on ther main which supposedly a ninjas weakness..

[Rayray]

So you are implying that ninjas are weak because few people use it? go back around 6 months ago, when there are literally only 2 biochemists around(Me and Rusty Trombone)

People started using Biochemist again because of me and enrique. No one mains biochemist besides me and enrique about 6 months ago, ask anyone then who are the ones that uses biochemists and they can only say me or enrique(Rusty Trombone). Now there are tons of them around because of what we did(and partly because of my guide probably). Call me arrogant, but I do take credit on making people think and use biochemist. Literally, there were only 2 of us using biochemists as a main character before I made that guide. So, due to the time I spent pvping and seeing the class' weakness and putting up something to combat it, I made people think that biochemist is a good class.

Before I mained and made that bio guide, biochemists were used as FCPers.

I spent time on making that FCPer class into something that can PvP virtually any class if you play it right. I didn't make the excuse of having such a big disadvantage as a biochem(FCP is easily obtainable, acidbomb is always neutral thus reduced by devs gr and raydrics etc). I just played it through. Biochemists are doing fine because we(me, enrique, airi, jayjay,bombin) played through it even if it has tons of disadvantages, and I put almost everything I know in the guide I made.

[supream]

Sigh all this arguing over stupid stuff. Ninjas are fine as they are now no buffs or nerfs needed. Just put a delay on warping thats all. Maybe I should just post a guide on how to play ninja maybe that will stop all the complaining that they are weak, but then again having a lot of me's running around would spark more nerfing suggestions.

So you are implying that ninjas are weak because few people use it? go back around 6 months ago, when there are literally only 2 biochemists around(Me and Rusty Trombone)

People started using Biochemist again because of me and enrique. No one mains biochemist besides me and enrique about 6 months ago, ask anyone then who are the ones that uses biochemists and they can only say me or enrique(Rusty Trombone). Now there are tons of them around because of what we did(and partly because of my guide probably). Call me arrogant, but I do take credit on making people think and use biochemist. Literally, there were only 2 of us using biochemists as a main character before I made that guide. So, due to the time I spent pvping and seeing the class' weakness and putting up something to combat it, I made people think that biochemist is a good class.

Before I mained and made that bio guide, biochemists were used as FCPers.

I spent time on making that FCPer class into something that can PvP virtually any class if you play it right. I didn't make the excuse of having such a big disadvantage as a biochem(FCP is easily obtainable, acidbomb is always neutral thus reduced by devs gr and raydrics etc). I just played it through. Biochemists are doing fine because we(me, enrique, airi, jayjay,bombin) played through it even if it has tons of disadvantages, and I put almost everything I know in the guide I made.

Heh who do you think started this huge spawn of lk and ninja thing.

[nellysky]

Sigh all this arguing over stupid stuff. Ninjas are fine as they are now no buffs or nerfs needed. Just put a delay on warping thats all. Maybe I should just post a guide on how to play ninja maybe that will stop all the complaining that they are weak, but then again having a lot of me's running around would spark more nerfing suggestions.

Heh who do you think started this huge spawn of lk and ninja thing.

ur guide would be so good as it said u have a pro ninja on ur main before. but i havent yet see you in game...

Edited June 10, 2013 by nellysky

[supream]

I sold all my ninja stuff for pally gear.

[Rayray]

Sigh all this arguing over stupid stuff. Ninjas are fine as they are now no buffs or nerfs needed. Just put a delay on warping thats all. Maybe I should just post a guide on how to play ninja maybe that will stop all the complaining that they are weak, but then again having a lot of me's running around would spark more nerfing suggestions.

Heh who do you think started this huge spawn of lk and ninja thing.

I can also agree on just the delay on warping as well. Cicada is just annoying though but not hard to counter as a biochemist so I don't mind it. It is just like chasing a sinx that spams backslide every few seconds though. CSS should get at least a fewer cells pushback, I think the one it has now is too far.

Huge Spawn of LK: that started around the time when people learned to use ship captain hat on LK and spam Spiral Pierce like hell. I don't exactly know who did it. I still wonder why no one complained about LK being able to use parry with a shield :p

Huge spawn of Ninjas that just css, flip tatami and warp: The only one I know who does that is Remember Me, someone named ninjaboy or something, a ninja that has cape and skull cap that i fought on stalker, and probably all their other friends.

Honestly, the only ninjas I respected now is you Supream and the recent one is Ulap.

sometime it make me wonder that the 1 who is suggesting of nerfing ninja are merchant class on ther main which supposedly a ninjas weakness..

Oh that is because I find it absurd that I can kill ninjas easily on a daily basis on biochemist, but other classes can't. Giap tried it on prof with no luck, and when he is on WS he just murders them. We both can kill ninjas with little to no problem on our mains, so getting this approved will not benefit us in any way as we can kill ninjas already, it will benefit every other class. See the difference with our suggestion? You guys make suggestions that only benefits Ninjas and doesn't care about anyone else.

Edited June 10, 2013 by ZerO25

[rossdecena]

Please stop this stupid argument. I think ninjas are good now even though I haven't used it for pvp yet. Coz I just practice with my friend with the same mediocre equipments like mine because we just started like 2 weeks ago so we really can't pvp with those geared ones in for_fild01. I use ninja as a main btw not because of css, tatami, or anything else but because I find it cool to be a ninja.

But if almost everyone wants to nerf ninja badly except those 2-3 people who are on the ninja side. Since you want a very small or small delay for the skills css and tatami, maybe we can compromise it with a better HP for ninja and legendary kunais. Just to stop the arguments. Any insights on this?

[nellysky]

Oh that is because I find it absurd that I can kill ninjas easily on a daily basis on biochemist, but other classes can't. Giap tried it on prof with no luck, and when he is on WS he just murders them. We both can kill ninjas with little to no problem on our mains, so getting this approved will not benefit us in any way as we can kill ninjas already, it will benefit every other class. See the difference with our suggestion? You guys make suggestions that only benefits Ninjas and doesn't care about anyone else.

why is it that the 1 whos main are not merchant class dont even bother to request to kill ninja class with ther mains. and infact they manage to kill ninjas using not a merchant class char..

do u guys also care of some1 whos migrating from other server of having ninja as ther main? and those to the 1 who want to use ninja as ther main? ninja is indeed anoying but ther seems not an OP one..

[SquidySquid]

Hahaha! I love the arguments. Well, I would say ninja is user friendly, pretty easy to use, deals good damage. I don't even know how to use it. Doesn't need any improvement.

[nando]

How a small delay on those skill will make the class "underpowered"? Because people will be able to hit them? That's why?...

That won't ruin the class, it will run the "fun" of people that only thing to do is randoming around with ninjas.

Another suggestion could be, nerf the GTB cards on ninjas, it give like 70%-80% magic resistence and this will open more classes to manage to hit them, since dispell will work :]!

[Rayray]

why is it that the 1 whos main are not merchant class dont even bother to request to kill ninja class with ther mains. and infact they manage to kill ninjas using not a merchant class char..

do u guys also care of some1 whos migrating from other server of having ninja as ther main? and those to the 1 who want to use ninja as ther main? ninja is indeed anoying but ther seems not an OP one..

Did you read the whole thread and see how many other people besides me and giap requested it? Again, I do not see how a small delay on css and flip tatami would kill your class. I did not say put a 5 second delay, or 3 second delay on the skills. Just make it so that it isn't spammable. How hard is it to grasp that concept? We have been going through this for how many pages now. I been replying that we just need a small delay on the skills everytime one of you guys reply something in the lines of "it will kill the class".

Players who migrated from other servers wouldn't even feel that delay. Most servers I know have those skills with harder delays than we are requesting. Also, our items and weapons are way better that it makes up for it. Again, fuuma shuriken weapons are supposed to be 2 handed, kunai and shuriken skills aren't that hard hitting on other servers and yet we made them good here. Using Ninja is not all about spamming CSS and flip tatami like you guys make it to be.

TL;DR A SMALL DELAY ON CSS AND FLIP TATAMI WOULDN'T KILL A GOOD NINJA. ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE CLASS WOULD BE BOTHERED BY IT.

[nellysky]

Did you read the whole thread and see how many other people besides me and giap requested it? Again, I do not see how a small delay on css and flip tatami would kill your class. I did not say put a 5 second delay, or 3 second delay on the skills. Just make it so that it isn't spammable. How hard is it to grasp that concept? We have been going through this for how many pages now. I been replying that we just need a small delay on the skills everytime one of you guys reply something in the lines of "it will kill the class".

Players who migrated from other servers wouldn't even feel that delay. Most servers I know have those skills with harder delays than we are requesting. Also, our items and weapons are way better that it makes up for it. Again, fuuma shuriken weapons are supposed to be 2 handed, kunai and shuriken skills aren't that hard hitting on other servers and yet we made them good here. Using Ninja is not all about spamming CSS and flip tatami like you guys make it to be.

TL;DR A SMALL DELAY ON CSS AND FLIP TATAMI WOULDN'T KILL A GOOD NINJA. ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE CLASS WOULD BE BOTHERED BY IT.

i should still say -1 to this.

iv been use 2 kiel + 1 silver kiel

or even 4 silver when i started and those are realy my hard days. tatami compared to 3 kiels realy has a big diff.

but still my most enjoyable and fun days playing..

why put delay on CSS? CSS dont need spaming on pvp.. only on woe but still 195 attack speed or fast skill such as despi and spiral pirce even sinx kills ninja easy on woe.. unless knocking back of CSS skill will be disable also on pvp that would make ninja user have to spam CSS

ther is no need to put delay on such skill both CSS and flip those skill are doing fine...

Hahaha! I love the arguments. Well, I would say ninja is user friendly, pretty easy to use, deals good damage. I don't even know how to use it. Doesn't need any improvement.

Argumentation sometimes are fun then.. its just sharing of both ideas and insights.. it makes me remember my school days.. :)

[Rayray]

i should still say -1 to this.

iv been use 2 kiel + 1 silver kiel

or even 4 silver when i started and those are realy my hard days. tatami compared to 3 kiels realy has a big diff.

but still my most enjoyable and fun days playing..

why put delay on CSS? CSS dont need spaming on pvp.. only on woe but still 195 attack speed or fast skill such as despi and spiral pirce even sinx kills ninja easy on woe.. unless knocking back of CSS skill will be disable also on pvp that would make ninja user have to spam CSS

ther is no need to put delay on such skill both CSS and flip those skill are doing fine...

Why are we talking of WoE suddenly? In WoE, EVERYONE is easier to kill. So that is irrelevant. Just place a good LK and spam bowling bash and he can kill anyone. It isn't a big deal to die in WoE.

You said "even sinx kills ninja easy on woe", that statement of yours just shows that outside of WoE, sinx cannot kill ninjas. You used the word "even" pertaining to the sinx class. With that statement alone, you actually imply that sinx is weak against ninjas outside of woe, since you used the word "even" making it so that you are looking down on sinx as a weaker class. And we gotta admit, no sinx can hit ninjas due to CSS pushback and virtually no delay on it. Even if a sinx successfully cornered a ninja, he can just go shadow leap and CSS again.

Putting a delay on css will make ninjas actually THINK of positioning themselves using shadow leap and css together, and not just spamming the hell out of css on a big map. Most classes have to exert more effort to actually hit a ninja, while the ninja just uses one button for css and one button for flip tatami. For some reason, you call being able to avoid almost every physical skill with no effort fair.

I copied flip tatami on stalker, so I know how absurd it is on making any physical range class look like idiots. I use it, and I myself find that the skill needs a delay. I can fight any sniper, bow stalker, kunai ninja, and biochemist on that stalker of mine and they will not be able to kill me because of flip tatami. I can go flip tatami> spam 2x-3x DS>repeat. On stalker, flip tatami is already too good, on ninja they became better because of CSS and illusory. If I screw up on flip tatami on stalker, i get hit. On ninja, if you screw up on flip tatami, your css/illusory will save you.

CSS and flip are doing fine for ninjas of course, you can't get hit by anyone unless they are a merchant class. Sure it isn't impossible to kill a ninja, even a good one. But again, as I said countless of times in this thread, every other class has to do a lot of things, exert more effort just to HIT a ninja, while the ninja just presses one to two buttons and he is safe. I really cannot see how you can call that fair.

If CSS and Flip tatami doesn't need the delay, we wouldn't be having this thread that is 13 pages long.

Edited June 11, 2013 by ZerO25

[Hypnosis]

Small delays aren't bad, I got one not to long ago on Desperado and it doesn't feel much different but you know it's there when you try to swap equipment(s).

Just depends on how you go about it, you gotta try and look for other ways of winning because there's not just one. Alot of people forget that what's convenient isn't always best. Ninja has a great Defense and doesn't need improvements on HP or Weight. You need to adjust your build for that. Splashes of STR and VIT here and there isn't bad. Their defense is nearly unbeatable if you know to play them properly.

[nellysky]

Why are we talking of WoE suddenly? In WoE, EVERYONE is easier to kill. So that is irrelevant. Just place a good LK and spam bowling bash and he can kill anyone. It isn't a big deal to die in WoE.

You said "even sinx kills ninja easy on woe", that statement of yours just shows that outside of WoE, sinx cannot kill ninjas. You used the word "even" pertaining to the sinx class. With that statement alone, you actually imply that sinx is weak against ninjas outside of woe, since you used the word "even" making it so that you are looking down on sinx as a weaker class. And we gotta admit, no sinx can hit ninjas due to CSS pushback and virtually no delay on it. Even if a sinx successfully cornered a ninja, he can just go shadow leap and CSS again.

Putting a delay on css will make ninjas actually THINK of positioning themselves using shadow leap and css together, and not just spamming the hell out of css on a big map. Most classes have to exert more effort to actually hit a ninja, while the ninja just uses one button for css and one button for flip tatami. For some reason, you call being able to avoid almost every physical skill with no effort fair.

I copied flip tatami on stalker, so I know how absurd it is on making any physical range class look like idiots. I use it, and I myself find that the skill needs a delay. I can fight any sniper, bow stalker, kunai ninja, and biochemist on that stalker of mine and they will not be able to kill me because of flip tatami. I can go flip tatami> spam 2x-3x DS>repeat. On stalker, flip tatami is already too good, on ninja they became better because of CSS and illusory. If I screw up on flip tatami on stalker, i get hit. On ninja, if you screw up on flip tatami, your css/illusory will save you.

CSS and flip are doing fine for ninjas of course, you can't get hit by anyone unless they are a merchant class. Sure it isn't impossible to kill a ninja, even a good one. But again, as I said countless of times in this thread, every other class has to do a lot of things, exert more effort just to HIT a ninja, while the ninja just presses one to two buttons and he is safe. I really cannot see how you can call that fair.

If CSS and Flip tatami doesn't need the delay, we wouldn't be having this thread that is 13 pages long.

the rison of making this 13 pages is not CSS and FLIP tatami needed a delay.but the argumentation..

the thing that some1 insisting to put delay on such skills while some are disagrees with the idea.. and yet some1 still insisting.. over and over again.

and again CSS skill doesnt need a fast or continues spaming on pvp. why should put delay on it.?

& maybe even you put a little delay flip. by means of kiels throw kunai + flip tatami will still work the same way as long it holds the ther ground why put delay on it? and if ever theyl gonna hit bcoz of flip tatamis delay range attacks such as arrows still cannot hit those they will be pushed away instead and yeah only acid bomb will hit them.

i guest thers nothing to be nerf on ninjas skills..

Edited June 11, 2013 by nellysky

[Hypnosis]

Well, tbh I don't know if Ninja needs a nerf because they do what they were intended to do from the beginning, Evade. Maybe what we need is a warp delay in PvP for those ninjas who use that like if it's a skill. Warping isn't a skill and to use it as if it were one is quite annoying. If we had a warp delay for Attacks, not people who spam the warp when farming but a delay on warps when you get hit by an opponent. There's two types of warp delay as i'm pretty sure alot of you know and we really need a delay for those classes who think they're so great but use warp like if it's a skill. I hate seeing people abusing commands so that they can win, It's far from amusing and not even near a legit kill.

[Rayray]

the rison of making this 13 pages is not CSS and FLIP tatami needed a delay.but the argumentation..

the thing that some1 insisting to put delay on such skills while some are disagrees with the idea.. and yet some1 still insisting.. over and over again.

and again CSS skill doesnt need a fast or continues spaming on pvp. why should put delay on it.?

& maybe even you put a little delay flip. by means of kiels throw kunai + flip tatami will still work the same way as long it holds the ther ground why put delay on it? and if ever theyl gonna hit bcoz of flip tatamis delay range attacks such as arrows still cannot hit those they will be pushed away instead and yeah only acid bomb will hit them.

i guest thers nothing to be nerf on ninjas skills..

Just because you guys disagreed on it doesn't mean we are wrong on suggesting it. Of course I am gonna argue our point, which in fact none of the ninjas (except Supream) actually argued on with facts or proof, it is just plain "-1 ninjas are fine" without any good argument.

BTW I argue my point repeatedly due to the fact that NONE of my points were actually answered correctly. I will put them in a numbered list please answer them with decent arguments and not just plain random "ninjas are fine".

1. CSS Delay: It renders any physical class besides merchant classes nulled. I propose having a small delay on CSS due to the fact that it dodges every physical attack except Cart Termination and Acid Bomb. A small delay, so that the ninja wouldn't be spamming it, that's it. Not 3-5 seconds delay because that is too much. Just enough so that the ninja will not be able to spam it, but it won't hinder the ninja too much. All other physical classes have problems with CSS being spammable. And as nellysky said, you wouldn't be spamming CSS in PvP anyway, so what was the harm on putting delay on it? If you wouldn't be spamming it, even if it has delay, you wouldn't feel anything right?

2. Flip Tatami: the counterpart of CSS for range attacks. This absolutely dodges ALL long range attacks. The fact that you can spam it makes no physical long range class will hit you as long as you use the skill. the skill effect lasts 3 seconds per cast, that means the ninja can go flip tatami>use skill> flip tatami endlessly. Proposing a delay on flip tatami due to this, at least a delay that makes use of the whole skill effect of tatami.

Further arguments from me that makes me say that the delays are needed:

a. we didn't ask to nerf any other skill of ninja. which makes your other defensive skills still as evasive as ever which includes shadow leap and illusory shadow. Add Hidden water skill on slowing melee characters.

b. Ninjas have basic reducts that are available to other classes. Meaning, a ninja with usakoring friggs have the same reducts as an LK with usakoring friggs. They can wear shields, and yet they have evasive skills that are way too spammable. Those skills will not need delays IF AND ONLY IF Ninjas' defense compared to other classes is lower, which isn't the case here.

c. Ability to be able to default GTB shield because CSS and Flip tatami are so spammable that they barely get hit by physical attacks except merchant classes type attacks. and then again, acid bomb is blocked by flip tatami. So a ninja can default GTB shield as long as there is no whitesmith. The only other classes that can default GTB shield is soul linker and paladin. Soul linker because of it's auto resu, however, those do not work on every event, ninja defensive skill does, leap doesn't even move you a cell in pvp room or woe. Paladin can default gtb shield due to their massive HP and defensive skills. Are ninjas intended to be somewhat as tanky as paladins due to their evasive skills?

d. We made mage type classes able to combat GTB shield using stave crasher among other stuff. All Mage type characters can fight any class that uses gtb with stave crasher. All, except ninja due css and flip tatami. A fully geared prof will not kill, even damage a ND geared ninja as long as the ninja defaults gtb and spams css and flip tatami.

e. Ninja HP isn't really bad, unless of course you went 300 str or 300 Int. Soul Linkers and Wizards have crappier HP than Ninjas, both classes have defensive skills, but nothing compared to css and flip tatami.

f. availability of @warp command makes it so that ninjas made it a 3rd evasive skill. put a delay on it when being hit or when player is hitting other people.

You guessing ninjas are fine or just saying "ninjas are fine" will not get us anywhere. Just answer them with decent arguments please.

[NayharaR2]

do something on bio remove heavens drive delay acid and fire bolt col bolt that the best for this suggestions

hahaha

[ChainBreak]

Suggestion:

Cicada and Tatami cannot be used together.

You have to decide on either one of them.

[geldaz]

Suggestion:

Cicada and Tatami cannot be used together.

You have to decide on either one of them.

So you have to gang them? nah.

[ChainBreak]

ganging is for noobs.

I don't gang even if it's ninjas.

[geldaz]

ganging is for noobs.

I don't gang even if it's ninjas.

You didn't get my point. Unless you fight alongside a different distance type class you still won't be able to hit a ninja therefor your suggestion won't solve anything .

[supream]

Well, tbh I don't know if Ninja needs a nerf because they do what they were intended to do from the beginning, Evade. Maybe what we need is a warp delay in PvP for those ninjas who use that like if it's a skill. Warping isn't a skill and to use it as if it were one is quite annoying. If we had a warp delay for Attacks, not people who spam the warp when farming but a delay on warps when you get hit by an opponent. There's two types of warp delay as i'm pretty sure alot of you know and we really need a delay for those classes who think they're so great but use warp like if it's a skill. I hate seeing people abusing commands so that they can win, It's far from amusing and not even near a legit kill.

The best argument here.

[nando]

Well, tbh I don't know if Ninja needs a nerf because they do what they were intended to do from the beginning, Evade. Maybe what we need is a warp delay in PvP for those ninjas who use that like if it's a skill. Warping isn't a skill and to use it as if it were one is quite annoying. If we had a warp delay for Attacks, not people who spam the warp when farming but a delay on warps when you get hit by an opponent. There's two types of warp delay as i'm pretty sure alot of you know and we really need a delay for those classes who think they're so great but use warp like if it's a skill. I hate seeing people abusing commands so that they can win, It's far from amusing and not even near a legit kill.

Let's say, that they add the delay on warping when you get hitted, but the problem is, if you can't hti them hwo this will work? I mean...Even if you are even pushing them to a corner, they will just hit the button. So in order to this delay work, the skill need to be tweeked a bit so you can hit them and prevent from warpig.