Zombee Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 Stalkers do have a large number of skills to pick from but they are not very good except a select few, (LSOI and BB) which is why I would like trans skills to give them some more choices that are actually semi-decent. They won't be overpowered and if they are, it will be nerfed, changes don't have to be permanent you know? And this discussion isn't only about dispel, its about class balance in general if you read my first post. Holy Cross, Mammonite, Crimson Fire Petal, JT, Storm Gust. There's a lot. A lot of people don't even think to use mammonite, when it's insanely good.
Kusanagi Posted October 31, 2009 Report Posted October 31, 2009 (edited) Test It yourself. I myself tried Stalker to come up with conclusions, heres what I got: HP Mod's They are fine as it is, the HP output is decent and suitable. Builds 3 Good posible build's: Int (magic), dex and str, other "hybrid builds" fail directly on any pvp enviroment since you are nearly unable to kill anything under normal circumnstances or not relying on luck (coma). Skills Most of the posible skills are made to counter certain classes but seeing as that is uselles I will list the most common 1- Spear Of Ice Gtb turns you unable to do anything and the build is rendered useless as you loose this skills. Bowling Bash The best and probably only recomendable skill for a Stalker in STR or dex Build, however it consumes a lot of SP wich you cant afford to waste in large amounts because of your lack of weight capacity on Dex Build (wich is the most common). On str build you are forced to rely on Bowling bash as Double Strafe will do nearly no damage Survival They can clearly outlast certain classes in survival and stay alive for large periods of time, however this is nothing considering most classes have theyre way of surviving, the main problem is that there is absolutely no one who is willing to fight once they are out of Berrys/ FCP time runs out, thus the class is rendered useless in pvp factors because no one is willing to face them once they have the perfect conditions to win. In short this class is literaly a waste of time as it is in a pvp enviroment since they just CANT kill because for everyone its a useless try to fight while divested or out of berrys. Preserve Unlike before the skill remains once its recasted, wich is good but the problem is the dispel rate the Valkyrie rangdris currently hold, In fact a few hits and its most likely you will be dispelled. Preserve may be good but its either, Dispell rate lowered or this skill made imposible to dispell. Trascendent Skill I will take my time to list the skills that can be posibly copied with this: Soul Breaker The main problem is the high amount of reductions posible for this one, The damage output is decent and would probably become one of the best skilsl for Stalker to use. Soul Syphoon Magic Based, wil miss upon GTB users. Shield Chain Requires the use of a Heavy shield wich forces the character into Str Build, not as strong as BB but has easier spam than Soul break but you can never use ranged damage besides this skill [Also Forsaken king shields and elite shields are too light weight to be used for this skill to be really good]. Gloria Domini Incredibly huge Delay but really useful for draining SP, Its not likely you will kill anyone with this but It will weaken everything in SP matters. Meteor Assault Why would you need this? Gravitation Field Useless Magnus exorcismus Cant be used in pvp terms Tarot Card Of Fate Only certain cards will be able to hit you so If you loose this skill It will take you time to get it back. This skill is extremely Overpowered If it cant be dispelled however we need to remember that unlike Clowns and Gypsys, Stalkers dont have High damage output moves like Arrow vulcan, so mostly this would be a weakening move. Acid Demonstration Strong but requires you to bring items so It has limited use and a high price to mantain, the damage entirely rely on INT so you cant change Into Bow and still do good damage unless you completely Give up on vitality and even then the damage wont be that great. Sacrifice Unlike Paladins Stalkers HP wont go highers than 260k HP without completely changing your build into vit and even then the output wont be that high, In fact they will be able to do ranged sacrifices but they will be using much more berrys for the sacrificed HP, the atack may be ranged but it will always be Neutral and also Stalkers dont have as many defending sources like paladins do. Cart Termination you cant use a cart (it will still be copied if you get dispelled from preserve) Other out of requirement's skills Like stated this skills will be completely useless because you cant use such skills for either pre-skill requirements or weapon limitations, this means if you get hit by those right after being dispelled you will get the skill but you will just loose your useful skill to a useless one. Edited October 31, 2009 by Kusanagi
sessions Posted October 31, 2009 Author Report Posted October 31, 2009 Holy Cross, Mammonite, Crimson Fire Petal, JT, Storm Gust. There's a lot. A lot of people don't even think to use mammonite, when it's insanely good. JT is okay but the pushback makes it impossible to kill anyone with it. SG sucks on this server because of fsets immunity to freeze, Holy Cross's spam rate is decent but the damage sucks without a thanatos, same with mammonite. LSOI>Crimson Fire. Kusanagi are you in favor or against? You basically said there is no reason not to.
Zombee Posted October 31, 2009 Report Posted October 31, 2009 JT is okay but the pushback makes it impossible to kill anyone with it. SG sucks on this server because of fsets immunity to freeze, Holy Cross's spam rate is decent but the damage sucks without a thanatos, same with mammonite. LSOI>Crimson Fire. Kusanagi are you in favor or against? You basically said there is no reason not to. Holy cross, and mammonite don't need thanatos. They're both insanely good. And there's a card to buff fire damage that goes in the weapon, making it really good. ;p
Anarii Posted October 31, 2009 Report Posted October 31, 2009 Holy cross, and mammonite don't need thanatos. They're both insanely good. And there's a card to buff fire damage that goes in the weapon, making it really good. ;p Holy cross and mammo are both low dps without a thana, and there is no card that slots in weapon that buffs fire damage.
Zombee Posted October 31, 2009 Report Posted October 31, 2009 Holy cross and mammo are both low dps without a thana, and there is no card that slots in weapon that buffs fire damage. If I weren't too lazy, I'd make a stalker and show you how low dps they aren't. Only problem is you'd have to be right next to your enemy, thus getting you killed hell of a lot quicker. Also, I was thinking of those mage cards. Like, increase damage with storm gust, and JT.
sessions Posted October 31, 2009 Author Report Posted October 31, 2009 Holy cross and mammonite damage suck without a thanatos, I've tried and even on a full damage build it only managed to kill people who were stripped or lacking in gears anyway.
Zombee Posted October 31, 2009 Report Posted October 31, 2009 (edited) They're both good, you just fail when it comes to using them. Anyways, don't even bother to reply back to me. I can care less. Edited October 31, 2009 by Zombee
Terroryst Posted November 1, 2009 Report Posted November 1, 2009 Damn, I'm not reading 2 pages or 2+ paragraphs on each post. I don't see how Stalkers being all that Zombee's putting them up to be. They have a shit HP multiplier, their best weapon is a 2 handed bow, and if they go magic then they miss out on skills like Ciceda and Illusionary that a Ninja gets. Double Strafe isn't that strong since you'll only do about 6kx2 on average, and with 2 FBHs you'll only have about 200 SP so you'll be burning a lot of berries that you're short on due to not having a lot of STR. BB is shit since you'll have to get close with a 2 handed weapon, and you'll only do about 10kx2. Going bow + magic is pretty horrid since you need both Dex AND Int, and you'll end up with either shit HP, shit Ygg capacity, or both. All in all, I'd actually agree with all the suggestions mentioned in first post.
sessions Posted November 1, 2009 Author Report Posted November 1, 2009 They're both good, you just fail when it comes to using them. Anyways, don't even bother to reply back to me. I can care less. Since I lack a thanatos I do fail when I use them. Do you know why? Because they are not that good to begin with. Damn, I'm not reading 2 pages or 2+ paragraphs on each post. I don't see how Stalkers being all that Zombee's putting them up to be. They have a shit HP multiplier, their best weapon is a 2 handed bow, and if they go magic then they miss out on skills like Ciceda and Illusionary that a Ninja gets. Double Strafe isn't that strong since you'll only do about 6kx2 on average, and with 2 FBHs you'll only have about 200 SP so you'll be burning a lot of berries that you're short on due to not having a lot of STR. BB is shit since you'll have to get close with a 2 handed weapon, and you'll only do about 10kx2. Going bow + magic is pretty horrid since you need both Dex AND Int, and you'll end up with either shit HP, shit Ygg capacity, or both. All in all, I'd actually agree with all the suggestions mentioned in first post. Thank you for that.
Anarii Posted November 1, 2009 Report Posted November 1, 2009 the only opposition comes from someone who isn't familiar with the server, nor has shown any proficiency ingame. i think we can disregard his opinion. ehehe.
Sorrow Posted November 1, 2009 Report Posted November 1, 2009 (edited) 1:Agreed. The damage output in the server is far too great and some classes just can't keep up. The classes with the lowest HP are usually also the ones that can't carry many yggs, greatly hindering survivability. Most cruel exemple? Wizzards with 200 VIT have only 80k HP... 2:Dispell and Preserve's relationship would be awesome if it was like it was meant to be; Professor vs Stalker. But no, anyone can use dispell here. Usually Stalker's Plagiarized skill is a key in their build. Using their original skill? Oh yeah everyone drops dead for full strip all the time because it deals so much damage...and the skill FCP doesn't exist at all. And Back Stab is so spammable it hurts... So yeah...Make it impervious to dispell, even if it means program it like, stalkers have their link always on. 3:Stalkers ARE transcendent jobs, i never got it why they shouldn't be able to copy transcendent skills =/ But anyho, this is something i don't think any server ever done. 4:Forth time also agreed, ranged class is underused. There's no use in saying "nah it's alright! it would be like giving shields to them!" it's a fact that damage reduction IS needed for ranged to become more viable. Ranged classes don't have great HP mods, and they eat up to double damage=certain recipe for death. Good news though; It seems this was also noted by the staff. Reffer to this topic http://forum.forsaken-ro.net/index.php?sho...=14861&st=0 to help with input for ideas :3 Edited November 1, 2009 by Sorrow
Kusanagi Posted November 1, 2009 Report Posted November 1, 2009 Im in favor heh, I just stated the facts about Stalkers, "they are useless for pvp" thats the resume to my post. I believe its good that they can copy trascendent skills as well after all thats why the option is there in the conf heh.
Sensation Posted November 2, 2009 Report Posted November 2, 2009 They aren't useless for PvP, certain stalkers actually made it to the top 3 in the Hall of Fame. Anyway, after all the bug fixing and once the elite weapon mod is completely tested/done we'll immediately add effect changes to those new weapons to try to balance it a bit more.
froster Posted November 3, 2009 Report Posted November 3, 2009 I personally play a stalker as my main class, i used to play on a different server where only certain trans skills could be copied like soul breaker, which was not overpowered at all. i wouldn't mind the dispel rate of plagiarism to be lowered but i do think it should be dispel-able. also due to the lowish hp mod of stalkers going full damage or high damage build greatly reduces your survival abilities in woe champs will own you unless your GR+2Devs+F.Shield, and wearing that Sins will own you. you could argue that you can just change your gear but i use most f my hot key bars for other things and its hard to ygg, kill and change gear at the same time.
Forum~ Posted November 3, 2009 Report Posted November 3, 2009 the only opposition comes from someone who isn't familiar with the server, nor has shown any proficiency ingame. i think we can disregard his opinion. ehehe. indeed. atm stalkers suck. the only build i use is flying kick+full strip (300dex+2dexbelts)+snatch <---and its to annoy people LOL. nice suggestion sessions. i'm all in for it. going hybrid is the only way to actually compete in pvp but the lack of hp makes it too difficult. fcp wasn't suppose to be so easy to get hence the necessity and desire to play stalker. Being a HR, they should be compensated with some hp. no one wants to wait 10 minutes for fcp to run out... they can easily refcp. not just stalker as well, every class besides pally, champ, sinx and lk should get some sort of hp mod. FROM YOUR BUDDY, Sync :p and INSERTNAME/C|imax /lv
Yuki Posted November 4, 2009 Report Posted November 4, 2009 Personally, I agree with most of the ideas. One idea I'm a little concerned about is the non-dispellable preserve skill. I believe Zombee made a point about professors. It does have a point, since professors are indeed a magic class along with high wizards. If you were to add non-dispellable preserve (except through the use of Tarot- maybe?), wouldn't you be rendering magic classes a little more useless and reduce their chances of winning against other classes a little bit?
Devotion Posted November 4, 2009 Report Posted November 4, 2009 But then there's valk rand, which makes everyone dispell capable.
Cirrus Posted November 4, 2009 Report Posted November 4, 2009 (edited) Or if it's possible that as suggested before, Preserve can't be Dispelled by level 1, i.e. Valkyrie Randgris. That would solve your "Professor problem." Anarii hit the nail on the head too. the only opposition comes from someone who isn't familiar with the server, nor has shown any proficiency ingame. i think we can disregard his opinion. ehehe. Otherwise I'm all for these suggestions. 20% for the reductions (like an uncarded F.Shield) sounds nice. Just a bit more HP would be fine as well. Transcendent skills? Why not. Most Trans skills suck anyway and like what has been said, the useful ones have drawbacks on the Stalker's build. I mean, AD? That isn't even a problem. Please. Edited November 4, 2009 by cirrus
Yuki Posted November 4, 2009 Report Posted November 4, 2009 Or if it's possible that as suggested before, Preserve can't be Dispelled by level 1, i.e. Valkyrie Randgris. That would solve your "Professor problem." I think that would be perfect.
Phenix Posted November 5, 2009 Report Posted November 5, 2009 (edited) Actually, I have played stalker. Sure, there's more to pvp than just going to for_fild. But you can get SL before entering PvP Rooms, and WoE too. As well as have some active SLers. So what are you trying to get to? There's a reason Gravity made it so you could dispel Preserve. And if you don't like being dispelled, L2Hybrid. There's more to Stalkers than spamming one skill. Double strafe, ever heard of it? It's in your skill tree. lol sry to bring sumthing up that was at the begining of the post But when i read this i laughed my ass off.Dude im sry but u must not played stalker very long perserve the only thing a stalker had beside full divestment.have u even looked at the skill list there are 3 atk skills and i hate to say it the only way ur ever going to atk a played with back stab is if they have the IQ of a rock and double straft is ok for hunt but in my opion worthless in pvp. ive played the offical ro server and the dispell rate for perserve is very low compared to this server.Anyone with a vr so much as look at me and i lose my skill.And as for the soullink LOL gl with that ive seen very few soullinkers on this server and when u ask them for a link they act like gods gift to ro and want u to pay.Ive even tried double clienting for link but thats just a irritation during woe. Edited November 5, 2009 by Phenix
Rayray Posted November 5, 2009 Report Posted November 5, 2009 Just make preserve not be dispelled by level 1 dispell and that is good enough. I just started playing stalker again and yeah I agree with most people here. P.S. I also like eAthena's update(i think it is eAthena, dunno if it is ours) that your stalker won't do anything(move his arms whatever) when full strip fails. it kinda surprises people :p
sessions Posted November 5, 2009 Author Report Posted November 5, 2009 Professor Dispel=Fine. Assassin Dispel+Magnum/other autocast skill=Lame. P.S. I also like eAthena's update(i think it is eAthena, dunno if it is ours) that your stalker won't do anything(move his arms whatever) when full strip fails. it kinda surprises people :p And it tells you if they are fcped, so that saves you a lot of time.
