Proposed Change: Guardian Rings

[Brianology]

and all I said was you type like someone that isn't educated and you blew this up. what I said doesn't even count as an insult then if you're going to say that about me. i'm done trying to communicate with you

[速い]

2 hours ago, c0okiee said:

yo meet whatever u just proposed all the classes have been nerfed recently and also SG has been nerfed ages ago. You have only recently come back and u expect whole server to throw a red carpet and agree to everything u say.

Like Wiz just got nerfed their dmg doesn't cross 120k Each napalm with max Dmg build unles(Mystic or Mind break) It used to be 250k before w/o buffs lol.

GS the nerf u suggest is reduce dmg even more when it was just nerfed that's fair but then increase their hp significantly then caz they got really low Hp ( u want balance? suggest it properly) .

WS- this is where u g0t 0 knowledge of this game The ws g ring is the brain child of Mizel ( the ring has only 1 skill Napalm and no other unlike wiz g ring where they got many skills) like literally renders the class useless if gtb or non gr and u wanna sit and nerf it(after it was already nerfed just a while ago). *Slow Clap*
Instead try to come up with a Change for the entire ring ill agree with u infact id applaud u.

Though please stop suggesting stuff w/o actually playing the class also making it unbalanced. U nerf smthing add smthing instead. 
And u have forgotten the most crucial class of all Champs 1 class periodically ppl complain about always and u haven't even mentioned it Why? caz u play it as simple as that.

Also your entire argument is flawed ( Magic class has the easiest counter in the world its called a gtb / Where as champs what do u do to counter them enlighten me Caz anything u do to counter them u risk being vulnerable to other classes) And as for Pally support any class can be equally good with pally support u wanna sit and snap around and run into Mind breaked wizards and WS that's on u not the class or other players fault that hes op. Just use counters which are very easy btw or take the help of a pally and go gtb ( bless ace shld help u there maybe get 1) 

I cld agree with the Gypsy/clown G but seems a bit too much of a nerf since its already just 90-100k dmg. Id say reduce their hp buff that shld work better ( it makes them be glass cannons or if they want HP sacrifice dmg) More simpler id say

 

Just because something's previously been nerfed doesn't mean it was good enough. I haven't come back and expected anything of anyone. Up until the point you broke down and started attacking me I hadn't even said a word and hadn't done anything except kill you in an attempt to ladder. It's clear you have something against me and from the very day I came back you've tried your very best to find an excuse to get @ me, it definitely isn't working sorry bud you're only coming across immature by personally attacking me on a suggestion thread.

 

Wizard hasn't ever and should never have been made a glass cannon assassin, going directly against the very nature of the class and making it a single target powerhouse and giving it the ability to completely wipe anyone that isn't on gtb/is on gr. I don't think you even read the thread at this point seeing as you didn't even notice the increase in HP given to Gunslingers to compensate for the reduction in damage and increase their chances of surviving. 

 

Here we are again with you attacking me for apparently having zero knowledge of this game when you haven't brought anything worth mentioning to the meta at any stage of this server's development over time. I tried thinking of something to replace WS G but at this point in time there's nothing I can suggest that even makes sense, therefore only proposing a nerf to the current ring itself for now.

 

Again, I don't need to play the class itself to realise it's broken. I've not only wanted Champ G nerfed to the ground since coming  back but in fact even contributed towards it, so don't come at me telling me I'm biased. Champ definitely needs a look over, but it can't be done until these classes have been dealt with, as champ isn't outrageously busted though it definitely does need a look over at some point due to books pushing it over the edge slightly. At this point a fully geared champ like me, Broly, Brianology will most definitely one-shot an undergeared player but definitely wouldn't be able to one-shot someone just as geared on a different class.

 

Quote

Also your entire argument is flawed ( Magic class has the easiest counter in the world its called a gtb / Where as champs what do u do to counter them enlighten me Caz anything u do to counter them u risk being vulnerable to other classes) And as for Pally support any class can be equally good with pally support u wanna sit and snap around and run into Mind breaked wizards and WS that's on u not the class or other players fault that hes op. Just use counters which are very easy btw or take the help of a pally and go gtb ( bless ace shld help u there maybe get 1) 

You might want to read over what you just said in the snippet above too. So you don't think putting GTB/Taking GR off makes you vulnerable to other classes? A champ will one shot you whichever of the two you choose. How do you want someone like me to put gtb on, freeze a glass cannon wizard who's probably being devo'd before someone else catches me? Let's exclude me since I'm apparently a trash example, but supposedly one of the best champ players in the game Broly can't even manage to deal with a Wizard, you might want to hop on and show us how though maybe we're missing something.

 

I did look over the percentages again and the percentages should instead be around 220-240% rather than 300% which has now been amended in the original post. I still feel 100k does way too much for a skill that's spammable like that. Not every class needs to be equipped with doing devastating amounts of damage, every class should be playing to its' strengths, like how it previously was. All these busted classes/rings are making every other play-style redundant at this point because it isn't even worth picking up.

 

Not only did you pathetically attack me in a suggestion thread, you shit on this thread by spamming in it and even after all that you contributed very little to this discussion.

[c0okiee]

1 hour ago, Brianology said:

what I don't understand is why you're attacking him and being subliminal instead of just proving your point

I apologize if I was being too harsh but I mean that class is already given so much injustice so it kinda hit a nerve wen he made that suggestion As for the MB part I agree its still decent but I literally have 24k matk and 200k hp w/o energy coat dude that's like 10k lower matk for literally same dmg and only 1 skil.

[c0okiee]

9 minutes ago, 速い  said:

Not only did you pathetically attack me in a suggestion thread, you shit on this thread by spamming in it and even after all that you contributed very little to this discussion

I actually did contribute and it wasn't me that was the only 1 spamming. 
I mentioned in my 1st message about gypsy/clown. Said wiz was fine ws g was fine SG was nerfed before so no to ur suggestion etc etc.
 
Uhm I dunno if u Recently saw the nerf on Wiz redux they cant go 95% redux anymore they can only use bless ace* and energy coat and their damage has been significantly reduced already . If u wanna reduce it anymore ur going to kill that ring ( basically not much diference btwn Bless and g variant anymore) . For the WS G 0 nerfs required till a complete remake of that ring  is thought of caz I wouldn't allow the ring to just be killed of its already just 1 skill with nerfed dmg .
You cannot simply say u want to nerf it caz its hard to fight the class. Champs can go max dmg with 2 fbh and holowrings and get pally Support and do 380k Asura on 2 rays but u don't see many ppl complain bout it caz that build makes u a glass cannon. 
A wiz right now has the option of going either for HP( vit)for survival or become glass cannons with 100k hp and max dmg since no more max redux builds. ITs similar to champs I do not understand why u want to nerf it further

Clowns/Gypsys I agreed with u but not dmg nerf it has to be HP they have over 300k-330k Hp while doing that dmg 

Bio C I agree with u as well but not dmg since it can be reflected and reduced. Target their hp ( remove the 20% hp buff from brutal hats) they also get 15% hp from DA that's too much hp buff for BIO c so reduce the HP % on C ring to balace it My frnd has 380-400k hp with 120k mamo dmg which is way too much..

Starglad needs too much effort + needs a pally all the time to work also has been nerfed drastically ages ago so id say let it be.

Only reason I was being mean was all these nerfs made 0 sense to me since ur not making up for wat ur nerfing ( like If u reduce dmg give them a bit hp or smthing caz these classes have already been nerfed a lot)

 

[速い]

13 minutes ago, c0okiee said:

I apologize if I was being too harsh but I mean that class is already given so much injustice so it kinda hit a nerve wen he made that suggestion As for the MB part I agree its still decent but I literally have 24k matk and 200k hp w/o energy coat dude that's like 10k lower matk for literally same dmg and only 1 skil.

You're asking for accessibility to devastating damage with no downsides whatsoever. Do you use kafra hairband? I already included a HP buff to Wizards to increase their survivability which you probably overlooked. If anyone's going to reply saying nerfing Kafra Hairband would be the way to go, no it would not. Kafra Hairband should stay the way it is with adjustments made to the very ring itself, so that the option to do significantly more damage is still there with a clear downside (the ability to be frozen).

[c0okiee]

Dude WS literally Has 1 skill Napalm that's it they have max 24-26k matk (Kafra vs Ltd hat) This is with rata included. Wizards have 34k matk fyi so u can see why I said so. Also my WS has 200k hp for max Dmg build Without Energy Coat I literally die In 1 asura.... I use Devling +Raydric to survive so I die faster to other classes. Also Kafra has been nerfed too to 25% instead of 40% 
Ur looking towards nerfing a class that would be rendered useless if nerfed. I mean u guys wanna attack a ws g or a sn class. Im literally the only 1 who plays these classes would that be enuf to explain why ? caz they need the effort to make it work and are pretty much useless if countered.

[速い]

Please stop playing it off as if these nerfs, even if they are aggressive would render the class useless. It'd render that specific play-style useless at best and I can tell you pretty confidently that the numbers I've provided definitely isn't aiming to do just that. What makes you think Whitesmith using Napalm is normal whatsoever? You're most definitely not the only who plays whitesmith, there's at least two others currently and do absurd amounts of damage. I've merely suggested nerfing Whitesmith Guardian until there's a replacement for it because currently as it is it promotes a toxic meta where people rely on busted classes doing absurd amounts of damage where they shouldn't.

There's absolutely no need for every class to be doing stupid amounts of damage, these rings should be complimenting the classes themselves rather than trying to add random shit that isn't well thought out in the first place and forcing it to work with that specific class (e.g. Whitesmith Guardian, being a prime example of exactly this).

When did hitting 100k+ mammonite, 150k+ napalm and one-shotting pallies on SG become normal? Keep in mind all of these things are spammable with no delay whatsoever, don't even compare this to something like Asura which yes currently does a lot of damage but is nowhere close to being as fast as mammo and napalm. Also, how are you even comparing a champion with Hollowrings? You do realise you'll never survive anything wearing Hollowrings in any setting whatsoever even with a pally. You literally can't compare hollowrings to a wizard with a kafra hairband, huge difference there - it doesn't force you to sacrifice the amount of damage you're going to take by an amount that you can't even ygg.

[gunxsword11]

19 hours ago, 速い  said:

Napalm is most definitely not useless at all, on a server where everyone's forced to wear GR. You're looking at this from an all too perfect angle where someone's going to have a pally devoing them, meanwhile people like me are snapping through a castle and a wizard only has to catch me for a split second with MB to kill me instantly with no counter-play whatsoever.

I'm actually looking at it at a more solo perspective .... since woe is basically a compilation/mixture of jobs that compensates to one another. In a WoE setting obviously people will default GR because of the present of neutral jobs like champs & bio which makes Napalm build effective - i mean thats the whole point. Any job that gets MB'd is like any melee/longrange phys class that gets 2x (which i pointed out already the only difference is the frequency/availability of the buff) that even if you just pass through in just a split second you'll still prob have the same scenario and die almost instantly. 

I mean if you think and compare it this depends on an individual perspective. For example this scenario's ; (i'll be using wiz g vs gs g for comparison since they're the closest in damage range)

[1] Champ snapping wearing usakoring pass by Wiz G that has MB = die in seconds if ur hp be like below 320k
[2] Champ snapping wearing GTB pass by GS G that has voke lvl 10 (doesn't even need 2x atk but has same availability) = die in seconds if ur hp be like below 320k

Anyone on each of this scenario would complain about the other - since mainly right now the main point of phys classes are to kill anyone on gtb or have them switch AND the main point of matk classes is to kill anyone on usakoring or have them switch. This is what i meant but depends on an individual perspective. Yes we all have easy counters for each classes but the main thrill that woe offers is that unexpected twists that suddenly pops up in front of u - and its up to you to decide how you will counter it (like snap while using gtb then switching to usakoring or vice versa) ..... its just that really so for me in this case both  are basically the same. If i have to point out another thing is that well i can honestly say GS G & napalm do have a great deal damage so lowering by atleast 30%~50% (depends) honestly would be more than enough to ensure that this classes wont suck individual and in a group and at the same time not so overwhelming.  Since you guys are looking at it at an all too perfect angle of assuming that everyone has access to mb that 100% of the time for 1 hr all magic users are on mb which isnt true - its hard to prepare an alt to be able to stay alive inside emp room - and the dam mb/voke buff will only even last for like a min then poof gone back to normal - so im looking at this at a SOLO JOB ALONE (w/o outside buffs) perspective where in if u wanna lower its damage at least make it high enough to still be able to fight back even alone and shine more in a group.  Also i do think 100% might still be too low so maybe 110%~130% might be something everyone would be happy about + by the nature of napalm skill itself - this skill tbh really shines to the fullest if your attacking someone alone since it will not splash/split the damage to those beside it making it weaker - thats the nature of the skill itself and tbh if i were to use wiz g/ws g even if i atk someone at emp area with the amount of people beside each other - honestly even with MB i dont think i'll do a killer damage cause of how the pure damage divides itself and splash around multiple people.

 

10 hours ago, c0okiee said:

cld agree with the Gypsy/clown G but seems a bit too much of a nerf since its already just 90-100k dmg. Id say reduce their hp buff that shld work better ( it makes them be glass cannons or if they want HP sacrifice dmg) More simpler id say

i could actually agree on most of this - since there is that option to get SL converting ur buff target rather than just party - but enable u to use it on yourself. So imagine a bard/gypsy SL selfcast lutie having like 650~800k hp (unless dispelled but with that hp u can yolo on gtb lmao) and doing like the average 90~100k spam damage (on full gears) might be too mighty so +1 to reducing the hp a bit 

Edited April 6, 2019 by gunxsword11

[gunxsword11]

As for SG - with the right support its like a walking 1 man army hahahahahah .... if the GMs even plan to nerf this - then prob just reduce the damage A BIT to make sure the class still serve its purpose consider the shitty hp it has

As for the values for Bio C - same also feel 175% might be too low , prob 270%~300% is fine
As for the values for GS G - just read it and that feels fine, 135%~150% seems goood

If anyone else thinks it needs to be lowered down a bit anyway, i mean this new builds or new rings main purpose is have a style diff from the usual practice which is why some of the new builds can be so far from its original class specialty, so people cant really just say "your a melee/matk class u should only be able to do this not this (exag)" - since the whole point of the new builds is to add a bit of twist to sht, ofc it wont be perfect thats why there's feedbacks like this so that it'll still be that way but at the same time wont ruin shit

[速い]

19 minutes ago, gunxsword11 said:

I'm actually looking at it at a more solo perspective .... since woe is basically a compilation/mixture of jobs that compensates to one another. In a WoE setting obviously people will default GR because of the present of neutral jobs like champs & bio which makes Napalm build effective - i mean thats the whole point. Any job that gets MB'd is like any melee/longrange phys class that gets 2x (which i pointed out already the only difference is the frequency/availability of the buff) that even if you just pass through in just a split second you'll still prob have the same scenario and die almost instantly. 

I mean if you think and compare it this depends on an individual perspective. For example this scenario's ; (i'll be using wiz g vs gs g for comparison since they're the closest in damage range)

[1] Champ snapping wearing usakoring pass by Wiz G that has MB = die in seconds if ur hp be like below 320k
[2] Champ snapping wearing GTB pass by GS G that has voke lvl 10 (doesn't even need 2x atk but has same availability) = die in seconds if ur hp be like below 320k

Anyone on each of this scenario would complain about the other - since mainly right now the main point of phys classes are to kill anyone on gtb or have them switch AND the main point of matk classes is to kill anyone on usakoring or have them switch. This is what i meant but depends on an individual perspective. Yes we all have easy counters for each classes but the main thrill that woe offers is that unexpected twists that suddenly pops up in front of u - and its up to you to decide how you will counter it (like snap while using gtb then switching to usakoring or vice versa) ..... its just that really so for me in this case both  are basically the same. If i have to point out another thing is that well i can honestly say GS G & napalm do have a great deal damage so lowering by atleast 30%~50% (depends) honestly would be more than enough to ensure that this classes wont suck individual and in a group and at the same time not so overwhelming.  Since you guys are looking at it at an all too perfect angle of assuming that everyone has access to mb that 100% of the time for 1 hr all magic users are on mb which isnt true - its hard to prepare an alt to be able to stay alive inside emp room - and the dam mb/voke buff will only even last for like a min then poof gone back to normal - so im looking at this at a SOLO JOB ALONE (w/o outside buffs) perspective where in if u wanna lower its damage at least make it high enough to still be able to fight back even alone and shine more in a group.  Also i do think 100% might still be too low so maybe 110%~120% might be something everyone would be happy about + by the nature of napalm skill itself - this skill tbh really shines to the fullest if your attacking someone alone since it will not splash/split the damage to those beside it making it weaker - thats the nature of the skill itself and tbh if i were to use wiz g/ws g even if i atk someone at emp area with the amount of people beside each other - honestly even with MB i dont think i'll do a killer damage cause of how the pure damage divides itself and splash around multiple people.

 

i could actually agree on most of this - since there is that option to get SL converting ur buff target rather than just party - but enable u to use it on yourself. So imagine a bard/gypsy SL selfcast lutie having like 650~800k hp (unless dispelled but with that hp u can yolo on gtb lmao) and doing like the average 90~100k spam damage (on full gears) might be too mighty so +1 to reducing the hp a bit 

I have no problem dealing with a Wizard whatsoever in a 1v1 scenario outside of a setting which requires a group like BR/GvG/WoE. The whole point of this nerf is to make sure that they aren't able to just drop another player easily with no counter-play whatsoever while providing them with increased survivability. Whether or not you need an alt doesn't matter, there's plenty of people that play redux prof that are there purely to help other Wizards and mindbreak them while using whatever CC they can do prevent people from advancing during WoE. If there's a guild defending with a couple wizards you sure as shit would expect them to have MB on almost all the time - the point is it's so readily available it doesn't matter what you say, it'll always be there to be used. If I was playing wizard I'd definitely have someone or myself casting MB on me at all times.

 

Having classes that do absurd amounts of damage like this is super unhealthy and the window for counter-play in this meta currently is so small that it's almost impossible to counter one class without getting completely dismantled by a different class. I'd rather be prudent and stick by the 100% than have it still be a problem, like I said a lot of these rings weren't well thought-out in the first place, they're either underwhelming and almost useless or they're just forcing a play-style upon the class that just doesn't compliment it or make sense whatsoever. At this point the previous nerf didn't do enough and didn't really change anything in terms of its ability to drop a player instantly, that's purely the reason why I'm sticking with what I outlined in the original post. I feel as if even with the decrease in damage, wiz g should still do a considerable amount while still benefiting from the increased survivability.

EDIT

Quote

As for the values for Bio C - same also feel 175% might be too low , prob 270%~300% is fine
As for the values for GS G - just read it and that feels fine, 135%~150% seems goood

How are you even coming up with these numbers? 270-300% would absolutely do nothing, they'd still hit for roughly the same amount. Mammonite shouldn't hit anywhere close to 100k - given how fast it can be spammed. I probably have the fastest and strongest asura you can even obtain currently through the highest tier items (this excludes the use of hollowring) a bio can outdamage me while having 400-450k HP and spamming one key.

Edited April 6, 2019 by 速い 

[gunxsword11]

11 minutes ago, 速い  said:

I have no problem dealing with a Wizard whatsoever in a 1v1 scenario outside of a setting which requires a group like BR/GvG/WoE. The whole point of this nerf is to make sure that they aren't able to just drop another player easily with no counter-play whatsoever while providing them with increased survivability. Whether or not you need an alt doesn't matter, there's plenty of people that play redux prof that are there purely to help other Wizards and mindbreak them while using whatever CC they can do prevent people from advancing during WoE. If there's a guild defending with a couple wizards you sure as shit would expect them to have MB on almost all the time - the point is it's so readily available it doesn't matter what you say, it'll always be there to be used. If I was playing wizard I'd definitely have someone or myself casting MB on me at all times.

This itself is because its the nature of WoE - to have each classes to compensate one another and to prepare or make an effort to ensure that each of offensive classes will be supported properly. For MATK builds automatic MB , for Physical  build automatic Voker lvl 10 & Chants thats the norm. I do have to say that i'd agree on the fact that it does way too much damage specially when buffed but lowering the damage output too low might make the class totally useless. So if your suggesting it to be balanced in a way it wont right away kill anyone but still be able to serve its purpose and wipe people - I'd say you best bet is to drop  the damage output to from 180% to  130%~155% (actually just re-calculated it again) safest. At this point it won't  be that bloody at the same time still serve its purpose


EDIT: Also in regards with MB - its already a fact that it is indeed always available and any matk class that gets 2x matk boost will sure to 1 hit anyone or do serious damage one way or another, but the same can be said to voke lvl 10 (can be deadly on specific atk jobs) and chant 2x - and yet again ofc as i mentioned from the beginning the only difference is the frequency u get the buff that makes it alarming but other than that its technically the same concept

 

13 minutes ago, gunxsword11 said:

As for the values for Bio C - same also feel 175% might be too low , prob 270%~300% is fine
As for the values for GS G - just read it and that feels fine, 135%~150% seems goood

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by gunxsword11

[Ikatlo]

+1 ?

[HolyMoly]

As a GS Guardian ring user(who mainly  use it in woe and somewhat bias towards the class since i play it), i think that the current damage right now is definitely a lot of damage, but fair because of how easy a Gunslinger can die without devo (unless we talking about woe where there are a lot of pallies). They can also be stoned, easiest path to death since they cannot wear F soldier. 

In terms of current PvP, i do not really participate in order to comment on that. But i have not seen someone utilize a Gunslinger in the current PvP/recent update on GS G. 

In WoE, it is definitely still super good since you are surrounded by pallies/people to cover you (you literally just pew pew, and people die), but you need to be full equipped (Curse accessories +DA + Enchantments) in order to deal a great amount of damage with GS G. Without those it is relatively weak/semi ok.

I definitely agree that the rings need to be rework on but i do not know if your values would be fair or if it will just kill the classes mentioned. I feel like you got some fair suggestion on that. In my opinion, what i am getting with this post is lowering every damage in game, in every class so that it is fair for everyone. In my opinion, the difference between a mid gear person to a fully gear person is really high, but that takes time to fix anyways. So yeah. 

I only commented in GS G since this is the only class i'm familiar with that was mentioned

Thanks for suggesting though!

Peace,

Moly

Edited April 7, 2019 by HolyMoly
HEHE

[gunxsword11]

On 4/6/2019 at 12:04 PM, 速い  said:

How are you even coming up with these numbers? 270-300% would absolutely do nothing, they'd still hit for roughly the same amount. Mammonite shouldn't hit anywhere close to 100k - given how fast it can be spammed. I probably have the fastest and strongest asura you can even obtain currently through the highest tier items (this excludes the use of hollowring) a bio can outdamage me while having 400-450k HP and spamming one key.

I'm actually the one wondering how are you even coming up with this numbers ??  It feels like you battle'd probably someone who got full god gears on bio c - then assume everyone who might/does plays bio c would be exactly the same which is kinda a wrong mindset ... In setting/nerfing up gears/items in a game you need to consider 2 perspective in terms of motivation : 

[1] A Casual Player 
[2] A Hardcore Player

You do realize that the server isn't just about end-game shit - you need to look at it in a General perspective.  A Casual Player will always have the average items (normal donate acce, weapon, armors/hg, aura) and most of them will just donate money to get it then some would farm and earn it. Now if we follow the value that your suggesting mammo damage would drop to 40~50k each spam on full donate and if you compare that to other jobs - its shit. If you compare buying a diff set vs bio cset SPENDING the same amount of money .... then clearly it will show that if we follow your values then bio c wont be worth to spend a penny on - people wont even recommend playing or buying or using it ... you wont even be able to sell that shit and you'll kill that job itself (bio c) making the ring pointless. A class needs to be playable and WORTH the cost in a normal gear set up and more in a top end gear (god gear) set up.

Also a Hardcore Player that you prob met using a bio c (guessing) since u wont bring this up if you didn't  experience it hands on. This people like any other player even on a diff class would do way more damage than average . I mean you invest on DA, books , new acce, emp, bijou, thana/inca + foods & buffs like bor&aloe even voke lvl 10 then converter - so of course it will do more than 100k damage with the current gears. If you invest that much even on a diff class you'll definitely get similar result (depending on job class). The point here is its top tier end gear and people spent a lot for it - so ofc in a way it would be way way higher than ur average geared person and NOT EVERYONE can do this thats a fact so its really not healthy to just assume that everyone would be like that cause they wont.



[1] Right now a FULL geared (w/ da + books + acce + emp) Bio C with full buff + brutal (20% mammo) can do an average of 122k spam (w/o voke 10) .... with voke lvl 10 it'd spike to 135~150k (normally depends on opponents gear)

[2] WITH THE SAME SET UP ABOVE .... but rather than brutal hg - swap it with ltd hg,  mammo damage drops from an average 122k spam to 107k spam

[3] Now with same gear as (1) with brutal HG + FULL BUFFS (w/ voke 10)  but this time no ring (350% mammo)  but the rest exactly the same  - from an average of 122k spam it drops to 27k spam - so big difference even while wearing brutal. 

You wanted to drop it to half from 350% to 175% which would likely make a FULL GEAR with top tier end items like DA with books + new acce + emp + full buffs to do like what ? 47~57k ish on God Gears ?? You'd want people to spend that much money/time/effort to get that kind of damage ? What more for casual players with average gears ???  Obviously people wont if the GMs do that and it'll make the dam ring useless and killing a build for that certain class.

I do agree that it needs a bit of a nerf but not to that value where the class would be shitty - real talk. If the GMs drop the values to at least like 270%~300% then you'd still do like 87~94k average damage (w/ god gears) with mammo insane spam (assuming u got good ping) then that would make the class more worth it and balanced - thats a tiny bit of where i get my numbers from.
  

Edited April 7, 2019 by gunxsword11

[gunxsword11]

3 hours ago, HolyMoly said:

As a GS Guardian ring user(who mainly  use it in woe and somewhat bias towards the class since i play it), i think that the current damage right now is definitely a lot of damage, but fair because of how easy a Gunslinger can die without devo (unless we talking about woe where there are a lot of pallies). They can also be stoned, easiest path to death since they cannot wear F soldier. 

Same - if the GMs try to tone it down a bit , i still think  130%~150% would be nice or something near for GS G ... then for Wiz/WS G drop  the damage output to from 180% to  130%~155% sounds fair 
 

 

Again the idea of this topic is nice but the values ofc are too questionable so just stating opinions here

[速い]

4 hours ago, gunxsword11 said:

I'm actually the one wondering how are you even coming up with this numbers ??  It feels like you battle'd probably someone who got full god gears on bio c - then assume everyone who might/does plays bio c would be exactly the same which is kinda a wrong mindset ... In setting/nerfing up gears/items in a game you need to consider 2 perspective in terms of motivation : 

[1] A Casual Player 
[2] A Hardcore Player

You do realize that the server isn't just about end-game shit - you need to look at it in a General perspective.  A Casual Player will always have the average items (normal donate acce, weapon, armors/hg, aura) and most of them will just donate money to get it then some would farm and earn it. Now if we follow the value that your suggesting mammo damage would drop to 40~50k each spam on full donate and if you compare that to other jobs - its shit. If you compare buying a diff set vs bio cset SPENDING the same amount of money .... then clearly it will show that if we follow your values then bio c wont be worth to spend a penny on - people wont even recommend playing or buying or using it ... you wont even be able to sell that shit and you'll kill that job itself (bio c) making the ring pointless. A class needs to be playable and WORTH the cost in a normal gear set up and more in a top end gear (god gear) set up.

Also a Hardcore Player that you prob met using a bio c (guessing) since u wont bring this up if you didn't  experience it hands on. This people like any other player even on a diff class would do way more damage than average . I mean you invest on DA, books , new acce, emp, bijou, thana/inca + foods & buffs like bor&aloe even voke lvl 10 then converter - so of course it will do more than 100k damage with the current gears. If you invest that much even on a diff class you'll definitely get similar result (depending on job class). The point here is its top tier end gear and people spent a lot for it - so ofc in a way it would be way way higher than ur average geared person and NOT EVERYONE can do this thats a fact so its really not healthy to just assume that everyone would be like that cause they wont.



[1] Right now a FULL geared (w/ da + books + acce + emp) Bio C with full buff + brutal (20% mammo) can do an average of 122k spam (w/o voke 10) .... with voke lvl 10 it'd spike to 135~150k (normally depends on opponents gear)

[2] WITH THE SAME SET UP ABOVE .... but rather than brutal hg - swap it with ltd hg,  mammo damage drops from an average 122k spam to 107k spam

[3] Now with same gear as (1) with brutal HG + FULL BUFFS (w/ voke 10)  but this time no ring (350% mammo)  but the rest exactly the same  - from an average of 122k spam it drops to 27k spam - so big difference even while wearing brutal. 

You wanted to drop it to half from 350% to 175% which would likely make a FULL GEAR with top tier end items like DA with books + new acce + emp + full buffs to do like what ? 47~57k ish on God Gears ?? You'd want people to spend that much money/time/effort to get that kind of damage ? What more for casual players with average gears ???  Obviously people wont if the GMs do that and it'll make the dam ring useless and killing a build for that certain class.

I do agree that it needs a bit of a nerf but not to that value where the class would be shitty - real talk. If the GMs drop the values to at least like 270%~300% then you'd still do like 87~94k average damage (w/ god gears) with mammo insane spam (assuming u got good ping) then that would make the class more worth it and balanced - thats a tiny bit of where i get my numbers from.
  

I'm not assuming anything, purely going off of experience and playing this server on and off for over a decade. The state of pvp right now as it is, is unhealthy. It doesn't matter whether you're a casual player or a hardcore player, the difference between having the the normal items like you said (normal accessory, valk weap, farmor, hg & aura) should not be THIS huge. You've likely joined the server right as these rings were being introduced and never got to experience what it was like beforehand, the amount of damage classes like these do as of right now is completely absurd. Having the best items in the game should merely give you more of an edge over the majority of the players who are geared but haven't yet acquired things like DA & Books, it has nothing to do with being a god and doing insane amounts of damage, we're literally entering super high rate territory here. You suggested you'd feel comfortable with Bio C doing around 87k-94k? Let's pit that against my champ, fully geared btw - would only take a little over 3 mammo to drop me, being a skill with almost no delay you're suggesting a Bio completely outdps a champion, insane.

 

On top of all that, I don't think you even realise that most of the damage stems from the ring, weapon and headgear itself rather than DA & Books, so regardless of what you've mentioned there wouldn't be a huge difference between people who do have DA & Books other than the fact that they'll do slightly more damage and have a lot more hp at the same time (hp, which I've mentioned is a completely different issue that needs to be addressed as soon as these rings have been). I still stand by the values I provided, it might be a little aggressive but I know for a fact that that value is probably a lot closer to a balanced figure than what you've provided.

 

Here's what I want to leave you with about your suggestion of barely nerfing the damage increase provided to WS G.

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by 速い 

[gunxsword11]

3 minutes ago, 速い  said:

Here's what I want to leave you with about your suggestion of barely nerfing the damage increase provided to WS G.

Ya thats with MB so of course thats high damage - what damage were u expecting with 2x matk on full gears ? 10k each ????

 

5 minutes ago, 速い  said:

I'm not assuming anything, purely going off of experience and playing this server on and off for over a decade. The state of pvp right now as it is, is unhealthy. It doesn't matter whether you're a casual player or a hardcore player, the difference between having the the normal items like you said (normal accessory, valk weap, farmor, hg & aura) should not be THIS huge. You've likely joined the server right as these rings were being introduced and never got to experience what it was like beforehand, the amount of damage classes like these do as of right now is completely absurd. Having the best items in the game should merely give you more of an edge over the majority of the players who are geared but haven't yet acquired things like DA & Books, it has nothing to do with being a god and doing insane amounts of damage, we're literally entering super high rate territory here. You suggested you'd feel comfortable with Bio C doing around 87k-94k? Let's pit that against my champ, fully geared btw - would only take a little over 3 mammo to drop me, being a skill with almost no delay you're suggesting a Bio completely outdps a champion, insane.

Not sure if that On & Off for over a decade is a good thing since just like you i know the old old times specially how the old wiz builds are fyi + since i too came back and got wiped by an overpowered champ gring before right after i came back though it got nerfed so i get where your coming from. What im pointing out here is that the values you've given is like your comparing the old times to what it is now and wish to bring it back which unfortunately isn't possible anymore with all the new items UNLESS you nerf ALL CLASSES at the same time not just one or few - then that'll be fair. I'm not saying pvp is healthy or what pvp right now is good - i  agree that we need to reduce the damage output but not too low to the point it will be shit if u match it up against a diff class. People play/make/buy diff sets to a build of their liking because its decent because it does the job - same goes with bio c mammo. If the gms nerf bio c to the value you want then you'll be killing all bio c builds and making all cursed ring  for bio useless - people wont even buy that shit because they know that it wont be enough to keep up and this is what you keep missing. Lowering the damage output is a yes , but lowering to what YOUR SUGGESTING is a no. 

What your missing here is that because everyone can macro the values you want WILL NOT KILL ANYONE AT ALL even with you got the best ping or whatsoever thus their damage. Stop comparing the fuckup pvp now to the fuckup pvp before where GS despe , DS sniper, Wiz meteor etc etc builds was still a thing cause all of those got outdated as soon as gring came. Also candies/da/newacce/emp makes big difference in terms of damage - piece by piece it wont do much since this gears are meant to be collected so that bonuses will be accumulated THEN you will really feel the effect - this is what all hardcore players are aiming to do. In a game population - you dont just have hardcore players, even casual players contribute to the server. With the values your giving and thinking that everyone u will fight will have god gears ??? so nerf them so they wont do much damage even on god gears ? then what happens to the casual players gears ? stuck with shitty damage and cause them to quit or find a new game ?

im not saying to keep the items OP cause as i mentioned from the start it is doing too much damage - but if the gm team wants to nerf this items then they should nerf it to the values near to what i gave because your values will not let them keep up and force them to change/quit the job. You prob dont play it so u prob dont care but its just like asking to reduce asura damage by 30% because asura can kill a lot of people w/ 2x chant . Trust me the values i've given would appeal to alot more people than yours - since your asking specific classes to be nerfed first and WITH THOSE VALUES your making them useless - if your gonna suggest those values then nerf ALL CLASSES so they'll all be even a fresh start for all jobs - if not then the numbers i gave are way more sensible than what you gave just saying.

[Kekay123]

Add this to the list:

Champ - put 5 secs delay on snap and reduce asura damage by 50% ?

[ekis]

lol nerf again? haha RIP to other class who spent money about there main class to go fully gear and books.. that's why many quit player cuz u make them all dead class again..let see how many will quit again after u want make this nerf again