Soul Breaker/ Loki's Blade.

[Igopewpew]

Hi all,

Lately I've been trying out an SBK build on my assassin cross and I've drawn some conclusions. Based on my own experiences and knowledge of the other classes and possibilities I've decided to create this suggestion topic to hopefully get support and create more play styles for the assassin cross.

So firstly what exactly is the suggestion about ?

Everything written in this suggestion will be aimed at making the soulbreaker build a viable build on forsakenRO. For the ones that don't know what soul breaker is here's how the skill works:

Damage on a "hit" = (INT*5*SkillLv + Random(500~1000)) + (((ATK*SkillLv)*((100-Enemy DEF)/100) - Enemy VIT) (Elemental Modifier)

Damage on a "miss" = INT*5*SkillLv + Random(500~1000)

In plain text: Soul Destroyer has 2 parts to it's damage which add to each other in the end. One part is based on your INT (read: not MATK), and the other is based on the ATK of your right hand weapon and ATK increasing cards (The left-hand weapon's ATK doesn't matter). Both are actually considered, by the game's coding, to be Ranged Physical attacks.

Special notes:

• If dual wielding, then the cards of both weapons factor in, but if using a weapon and a shield/nothing in the left hand, then only the right hand's cards increases damage.
• Due to the nature of Soul Destroyer not taking the ATK of the left hand weapon in the damage calculations, having a non carded/% card weapon on the left hand does absolutely nothing in increasing your damage.

INT part

• The base damage follows the formula: [(INT * 5 * Skill Level) + Random(500~1000)].
• Never misses.
• Is non-elemental. No, not Neutral, but "non-elemental" meaning it is 100% unaffected by element of the target. This means that it will do 100% to Ghost element.
• Because of the way it is coded, Immune(Raydric Card) DOES affect this portion.
• It is affected by Thara Frog Card, Usakoring, Horn Card and Poo.
• Is not affected by MDEF, Maya Card or Golden Thief Bug Card.
• Is not affected by any +% Damage Cards such as Vadon, Hydra, Skel Worker, Turtle General, etc.
• The INT damage varies a little every time due to the random extra damage it gives as a bonus (ranges from 500-1000 dmg)

ATK part

• The base damage follows the formula: [(Total ATK - Left Hand Weapon's ATK) * Skill Level]
• Can miss, depending on your hit and your target's FLEE, just like a normal attack.
• Takes on the elemental property of your weapon (if you are dual wielding it takes on the element of the Right Hand).
• Is affected by target's DEF and VIT.
• Is affected by all cards affecting any normal attack's damage (Immune, Cranial, Horn, Poo)
• Applies any defense-bypassing weapons such as Ice Pick or Combat Knife. Ice Pick's damage mods apply as well.
• Is not affected by any +% Damage Cards such as Vadon, Hydra, Skel Worker, Turtle General, etc.
• Note that +ATK from any weapon Cards do apply, even if other parts of the card do not. Skel Worker's +15% on Medium does not apply, but it's +5 ATK does.

Add those two up and you get the final damage.

Notes

• Being ranged, the skill is completely blocked by Pneuma.
• EDP does not affect Soul Destroyer's damage in any way.
• +% Cards do not affect Soul Destroyer's damage in any way.
• Status cards' effects do not carry.
• Ice Pick and Combat Knife affects only the physical part.
• Items that allow your attacks to bypass the target's defense, such as Combat Knife and Ceaser's Sword apply in either hand.
• Zipper Bear's SP cost-per-attack does carry through to SD. One for each Zipper Bear Card.
• You cannot use any other skills during the after-cast delay.
• Cast Time can be reduced by DEX, Suffragium, various Cards and Magic Strings.
• When dual wielding and casting Soul Destroyer, you are not penalized for the lack of Righthand Mastery or Lefthand Mastery skills.
• The Sign does not affect Soul Destroyer's damage.
• When dual wielding, the atk value of your support weapon will not contribute to Soul Destroyer's damage. Only atk cards will have effect. (The ONLY ATK that does not apply is that of any left-hand weapon. Aegis NEVER uses left hand's weapon for any skill's damage calculation.)

Now as the skill description shows, this skill is somewhat focused on a low rate environment. It takes the skill level and multiplies it by the players int then multiplies the outcome by 5 + adds a random amount of damage (which on low rates it rather strong) after that there's a physical part which depends on your str and the enemies defense. After both calculations are done the damages are added onto each other. Other than the random damage add it seems like the calculation could work fine on a high rate. But here's the tricky part as described above: This attack is not amplified by any cards whatsoever other than atk cards (such as Atroce). However this effect does have it's damage reduced by demi human reduction and range reduction etc.

So lets have an example lets say you have 300 int. the skill would do 10*300 =3000 * 5 = 15000+ 500-1k. Lets say you have 3000 attack. So 3000*10 - left hand weapon atk (we'll leave the reductions out for now) and the target as 50 defense = 30000*50 / 100 = 15000. Combining both it's 15000+15000+ 500 to 1k = +/- 30000 damage maximum damage output without any reductions from the enemy yet. As soon as someone would have a friggs shield you would do less than 15k damage each soulbreaker.

You can compare the above with whitesmith's cart termination before they had their forsaken forger cards. Nothing adds onto the cart termination skill other than atroce cards and our custom forsaken forger card. This leads me to my first possible suggestion:

• Create a custom card with the same effect/price as the forsaken forger card but then for the soulbreaker skill.

Before, the spamrate from soulbreaker was absolutely garbage. However with the cursed ring/jacket you can spam decently thanks to the 5% after skill delay reduction on the cape. However, the weapons aimed for soulbreaker are extremely underwhelming compared to any other of the sinx weapons or even all other class' valk weapons. The weapon I am talking about is the loki's blade these are the current effects:

Str/Agi/int + 15

Vit + 10

Increase physical damage on demi humans by 10% (I believe this does not work for soul breaker)

Increase damage with soul destroyer by 20% (I don't know exactly when this is calculated in the above calculations but 20% seems really low with sbk's base damage.)

Increase damage with meteor assault by 30% (Neat effect but meteor assault won't reach over 8k dmg so 30% is not going to change much)

Weapon level 4 (lower than the daggers)

Atk: 200. (this atk only applies to the main weapon for sbk)

Personally I would not be exaggerating if I'd suggest the bonus %'s on this weapon (except for the increase physical dmg to demi human) to be at least 10-folded to increase soul destroyer by 200% and meteor assault by 300%. Right now on a full SBK build vs someone that has friggs usakoring + ring you will not deal over 13k dmg with SBK which is obviously, laughable.

So my second possible suggestion is changing the loki's blade to:

• Increase the damage with soul destroyer by 200%
• Increase damage with meteor assault by 300%
• Weapon level 5.

These changes do NOT mean that SBK will do 10x as much damage. it means that it's getting a 180% more dmg boost based on the base damage from soulbreaker. This will lead to sbk doing +/- 20k-22k dmg on usakoring frigs which should be fine.

Summary:

First possible change:

• Create a custom card with the same type effect/price as the forsaken forger card but then for the soulbreaker skill. Keep in mind that 40% for soulbreaker will not have as big of an effect as 40% for CT to percentages might have to be highered.

Second possible change.

So my second possible suggestion is changing the loki's blade to:

• Increase the damage with soul destroyer by 200%
• Increase damage with meteor assault by 300%
• Weapon level 5.

[hazbird123]

id enjoy seeing SD sinx around :D

[qperteplex]

This has been suggested multiple times but still no progress mostly regarding the spam rate. Even a ring for it was suggested. To create a card to mimic the M.Forger is new to me and sounds reasonable. Would be more awesome to have more varieties of the sinx class.

Sinx will now have an easier way to kick ninja ass!! :th_e31:

Edited May 27, 2014 by qperteplex

[sartorius19]

+1 for this.

[Rayray]

The first order of business is to fix the spam rate. Increase the damage all you want, but without a decent spam rate, it would be pointless.

Then let us address the issue of the damage. I like the idea of a shoe card like what we have for WS. However, we cannot make it the same percentage as the forgers card. Let us still keep in mind the sinx has 8 card slots available for them when needed.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Rayray

[Igopewpew]

The first order of business is to fix the spam rate. Increase the damage all you want, but without a decent spam rate, it would be pointless.

Then let us address the issue of the damage. I like the idea of a shoe card like what we have for WS. However, we cannot make it the same percentage as the forgers card. Let us still keep in mind the sinx has 8 card slots available for them when needed.

The spam rate is horrendous unless you use cursed ring/jacket. Then the spam rate is fine. It's not optimal to need such an expensive item to be able to use the build but it's better than nothing, so now that you can actually spam it with the cursed ring/jacket I'm suggesting to increase it's damage.

As explained above the soul breaker calculations are a lot different than the CT one. having a 50% on soul breaker won't nearly do as much as having 50% on CT as a boost. Also yes sinx can use 8 cards whenever they want, but keep in mind no damage % cards even work for soul breaker, neither does the attack of the offhand weapon. So the only thing they can do with the additional 4 slots is adding 400 attack with 4 atroce cards + the stats from loki's blade and give up their shield for that. The damage increase you get right now by doing that is about 3k-5k, giving you a maximum of 18k dmg on sbk vs just usakoring frigs. while you give up 60%+ reduction. I think if you equip your second weapon and make yourself this vulnerable then you should have a major damage boost as well.

[Rayray]

Regarding spam rate, try using kitty claws to spam SBK, and see the difference. That is why there was a suggestion to put 10% reduce in after cast on the loki's blades.

On the damage calculations, while most of that is indeed true and the normal damage you will indeed do is around the 15k-18k, your calculations never calculated things like ignoring defense(incantation samurai or just hitting an enemy on dual skolls) nor Thanatos card. 15k seem low if you compare it to a WS damage of course. However, considering the spam rate be fixed(again, try using kitty claws to see what I mean) and it being ranged, add the fact that sinx has no problem going dual due to its skills, this would need a ton of testing.

I am not against the idea, but as I said, it would need a lot of tests to actually get a gauge of the damage and it not being OP.

[Igopewpew]

Regarding spam rate, try using kitty claws to spam SBK, and see the difference. That is why there was a suggestion to put 10% reduce in after cast on the loki's blades.

On the damage calculations, while most of that is indeed true and the normal damage you will indeed do is around the 15k-18k, your calculations never calculated things like ignoring defense(incantation samurai or just hitting an enemy on dual skolls) nor Thanatos card. 15k seem low if you compare it to a WS damage of course. However, considering the spam rate be fixed(again, try using kitty claws to see what I mean) and it being ranged, add the fact that sinx has no problem going dual due to its skills, this would need a ton of testing.

I am not against the idea, but as I said, it would need a lot of tests to actually get a gauge of the damage and it not being OP.

The spamrate with kittys is basically the same as with loki's blade + ring. ever since they added the 5% after skill delay on the ring you can spam SBK. without the ring though does make a huge difference which was what it was like before when the loki's after skill delay suggestion was made. I can show you it if you please :)

As for the damage, my example didn't include incantation samurai because that would complicate the example even further. However with incant you do an average of 13k soul breaker max on 1 hand. and 17-18k max with 2 loki blades (this is vs only usakoring friggs, no noxious, no sacreds or rings or anything else). I'm sorry but 18k damage on 2 weapons is about 3x lower than 1 spiral pierce and that's with 1 handed weapon. or 5-6 times lower than fas which is also 1 handed and has a way larger range its also 2-3x lower than a single double strafe. Keep in mind CT is doing 30k+ hits with a 1 handed weapon. I am aiming for 20-25k hits with 1 hand on sinx. And I also disagree that sinx can easily go dual wield thanks to it's skills. An SBK build needs str and int for dmg, dex for instant cast, agi for max aspd. You'll hardly have any vit and you'll be squishy as it is. Going 2 weapons as an SBK sinx is suicide.

As for thanatos, that's the one and only viable way to use sbk right now, but as soon as someone has skolls your entire build is useless. Hence why it needs a major boost.

[Rayray]

Exactly my point in the spam rate: SBK needs to use Cursed Ring, which further limits the build. I was kinda hoping to actually be able to use other headgears(namely Eidelic) while using the build. Which is why a reduce delay on the weapon is preferable.

I did an average of 15k-16k on one hand, not using incant. This is mainly due to people switching in 2x skolls which makes their defense negative. This damage is done considering you do not have the 100% increase of damage in FBH shoes. I find that actually a bit decent. Spam was horrible though.

On the damage comparisons of skills. FAS only does good damage if it was immaterial arrow against GR. CT of WS does hit like a truck, but as a melee class that needs buffs to use a skill makes it so easy to counter, and they aren't tanky in terms of HP too. You can basically just equip drooping valk helm and dispell the hell out of WS.

Again, I am not against the idea but it needs a lot of test for it not to become OP. However, I do think we play SBK sinx quiet differently. Back when it was usable with the spam, I did not actually always go and spam one skill. My SBK build was decent enough to deal good damage on range and still deal decent damage on melee. And I was using only daggers then(loki's blade is not in the game before). In fact, I mostly play as melee then, only to surprise with SBK. I did have thana though, so that could be a difference.

[Igopewpew]

Exactly my point in the spam rate: SBK needs to use Cursed Ring, which further limits the build. I was kinda hoping to actually be able to use other headgears(namely Eidelic) while using the build. Which is why a reduce delay on the weapon is preferable.

I did an average of 15k-16k on one hand, not using incant. This is mainly due to people switching in 2x skolls which makes their defense negative. This damage is done considering you do not have the 100% increase of damage in FBH shoes. I find that actually a bit decent. Spam was horrible though.

On the damage comparisons of skills. FAS only does good damage if it was immaterial arrow against GR. CT of WS does hit like a truck, but as a melee class that needs buffs to use a skill makes it so easy to counter, and they aren't tanky in terms of HP too. You can basically just equip drooping valk helm and dispell the hell out of WS.

Again, I am not against the idea but it needs a lot of test for it not to become OP. However, I do think we play SBK sinx quiet differently. Back when it was usable with the spam, I did not actually always go and spam one skill. My SBK build was decent enough to deal good damage on range and still deal decent damage on melee. And I was using only daggers then(loki's blade is not in the game before). In fact, I mostly play as melee then, only to surprise with SBK. I did have thana though, so that could be a difference.

Yup after skill delay on the weapon would be preferable but of less concern in my opinion.

Keep in mind when you played it, there was no friggs shield either, no upgraded myth or skull aura etc, having a lower headgear that reduces demi human reductions weren't really the standard back then either. A lot has changed since then. Other classes got buffed , survivability in general got buffed with the tao gunka changes and SBK simply does not do enough dmg to burst down a target anymore.

Comparing the damage outputs FAS in general hits a ton, even without immaterial vs ghost as I pretty much never wear ghostring against snipers and yes WS has it's counters so I agree that their damage should be higher. However having 15k sbks is not going to kill anyone, most people have at least 280k hp, meaning you'd need almost 20 sbk's to kill someone. What chance is it that in the time you use 20 skills, they can't press on their ygg button once? My champ dealt about 12k FO's on usakoring frigs, and I spammed FO on the same speed as sbk. that's 60ks each fo compared to 15k SBKs, same goes for spiral pierce, that's an easy 25-35k each with immense spam speed.

One of the reasons why you could go more of a hybrid build is because you used daggers, the swords reduce your attack speed by a lot more than the daggers do requiring you to get even more agility, We might be able to go more hybrid if the damage will be buffed, but now on a build that's fully focussed on sbk damage you still don't do enough damage to kill any player that's not afk and is wearing usakoring frigs/skolls.

[Rayray]

^ also keep in mind that there is no loki's blade, no loki's seals or urds(hell, I was switching int and mix a belts then)back then. I was using daggers and katar, not even donation weapons(since they are not out yet at that time) so my damage is on par with the reducts available back then. And actually, myth aura was out then, but it isn't a huge deal since I was not using any element it gives.

I do agree that 15k sbks was somewhat pointless if you make it your main build. If SBK can be buffed on dealing 25k- 30k on incant alone, that should be good. But again, it needs tests. We do not want SinX to be so overpowered like back then where the entire server population is 95% sinx.

[Igopewpew]

Loki's blade increase is a lot smaller than the increased reductions since then, Loki's seals don't really increase the dmg much compared to str belts, just a few str stat points or a few atk from ifrits only make like 100-200 damage difference max.

Either way I agree with buffing sbk to do about 25-30k on incant. Sure it'd need tests but SBK has never been OP on this server. Ever. It was the dispel and WS card that made sinx extremely hard to beat before, nothing regarding sbk was anywhere near viable on any point, unfortunately.

[gennova]

+1 for more variety to build sinx

[Igopewpew]

Bumping this suggestion up. :) Still the only SBK sinx on the server :(.

[AsBloodRunsBlack]

i agree with boosting up SD type sinx . unfair for the other class that is too OP

[Igopewpew]

Thanks for the support. Really hope things will be done for sbk sinx. :)