Interesting, Yggs.

[Mei]

Anyways, I read and reviewed the previous suggestion about the Ygg berry disable thing and I have to admit, I'm a little shocked that some people haven't actually taken the time to think rationally and answer in a more narrow sense to the situation. Most of the responses I read from that thread were far to broad and much too vague to make any valid points; most were also flames and personal bias. You must understand that this is for the server and not the any personal player.

====

-Saying that "this is a high rate server" is a weak argument.

-Saying that HP modifier is too low is a weak argument unless you have something decent to back it up.

-Saying that a class will be OP is also weak, because there can be adjustments set to balance it; I don't know what those balances may be, but it will have to be suggested.

-Saying that "Oh, it's a PvP server and official servers do this" is also a very weak argument because it is too broad and vague.

-Saying that "Oh, you're just too lazy to farm or buy yggs" obviously shows lack of imagination and will never make a valid point, because I personally am not lazy (however this thread is about the server and not me) and do not respond to flame.

-Saying that "It's been this way, deal with it" is weak as well because there are things that can be tentative, and saying you don't want any changes means you may be stubborn and in turn don't want to "deal with it". (This is a server suggestion, not a suggestion just for YOU.)

-Saying that "Have you ever PvP'd WITHOUT berries" is invalid because yes, I have pvp'd without berries and used only my personally brewed ranked pots to keep be alive. But in a more broad sense, it is unimaginative.

-Saying "We like things the way it is", sorry, that argument is something I cannot accept because it really isn't a "we" thing is it?

====

People rely on healing far too much (This is why there are supportive classes like Creator and Priest, which can also be used as PvP classes), so I think the PvPers should get a reality check. MAKE USE OF THESE CLASSES.

You're not good because you can do amazing DPS and at the same time heal 24/7 and never die, but when you're on the brink of death; simply warp away because you don't want to die. The damage is high? Get Resists. You have crap HP? Get modifiers. Whatever!

====

So here is my claim.

Do not disable the use of Yggs, but limit the amount that can be held at one time or add a delay after the use of a ygg.. or ANY healing item for that matter. For the sake of it, add a delay for healing item use for all healing items. But I do stick by my suggestion of limiting the amount to be held, so that people can not run into storage and grab more (this applies to pvps out of the PvP room and WoE since commands are disabled in the PvP Rooms).

Also, that 150 ygg gift crap that can be abused by remaking the character; yeah, could that be lowered to say... 25~50?

If this is the case, then reduce that +1000% healing for bacsojin to a much more reasonable modifier, because that is just ludicrous.

But then again, the yggs make that card obsolete for everyone, even Priests.

Other healing items should be a part of the "PvP Inventory" as I call it. Less abusive things like Blue pots and Condensed white potions; these things can also be player made by the Alchemist class and also receive a rank for their creation. The higher the rank, the more they replenish. These secondary item's should have a boost in healing power if yggs were to still remain.

====

Why are commands disabled there anyways if no one even goes there? (I've been there a couple times to check it out, but no one is ever there.)

Why is it that it is stated that "for_fild01 is the popular hangout for pvp" when there is clearly a PvP room that can be used.

====

I see that my suggestion might seem like a rant, and in a sense it is, but I want to get down to why it is all maps are PK and on top of that, we have a PvP room that disables commands. (I see it has been this way for years, regardless, I stick to my point.)

I have not been here long however, I am an avid PvPer from multiple servers and the fact that I play Official JapanRO and a top player at that; I understand why it is vital to have berries when use for WoE etc, but no one has tackled the actual problem yet.

====

People are saying "We die to soon" or "Look at the damage we cause". Well shit, here's a logical solution I can put out..

1. Increase HP/SP Modifiers for classes reasonably by source modification.

2. Decrease damage output for all class by % when in PK/PvP/GvG/etc maps. (Although, damage in WoE should already be reduced by default)

3. Get better resists or stop whoring kiels to make way for resists.

4. Invest on Stat foods (Get cookbooks, make your own food)

5. Use armors that are not Forsaken King (Who gives a fuck about the slots, because I'm sure there are better things than +10%HP/SP and +10 all stats; also if that's the case, why not make all armors two slotted "just for the sake of BALANCE", why do you think people rely on yggs so much? *sarcasm*.)

6. Don't go to PvP (Do not use this against me, because I love PvP, however this thread is not about me.)

7. Make a nerf on Thanatos, because that seems to be where some of the damage is coming from. (Make it so it's damage is increased based on soft def, rather than hard def. Soft Def = Vit Based, Hard Def = Armor Based so [ Def 000+000 is Hard Def + Soft Def])

8. Idk, disable thanatos in WoE? <--- Kind of far-fetched, but reasonable in a broad sense.

9. Balance Kiel and the natural delay of skills so that it is not so dependent on kiels to win. (Such as changing their slot location)

Back on Topic

====

Sure, pvping for a few seconds before your inevitable death might not be satisfying, but things can be subject to change to make it more lasting and enjoyable without relying so much on the berries. There can be balance changes and nerfs to be done.

If the idea of balance changes and nerfs are dissatisfying or would take too long, then I would personally argue that, that is just laziness on the higher ups part, and possible stubbornness on the player's part. (Do not take this as an offense, this is merely my logical opinion.)

tl;dr?

Limit yggs held or add delay after ALL healing item's use.

Make healing items less predominant much more useful such as Condensed Whites

I have done my best to tackle any possible weak argument responses I might receive henceforth, so if there is something I did not mention that may be useful in this discussion, feel free to bring it up and I will respond.

What say you?

Please convince me with well thought-out responses and arguments.

[Mint]

Champs rely on a fast asura spam, you can't spam asura with a delay on yggs, and some classes naturally use more yggs than others e.g Sinx, so it wouldn't really be fair. It's a good suggestion, if it was made 4 years ago

[Mei]

Champs rely on a fast asura spam, you can't spam asura with a delay on yggs, and some classes naturally use more yggs than others e.g Sinx, so it wouldn't really be fair. It's a good suggestion, if it was made 4 years ago

I am not tackling class specific. But here goes.

Champs don't need Asura to win, they can FO or Combo Asura, or use BLUE POTS.

Champs are not good because of Asura spam.

Get Lady Tannee, get blue pots.

Classes that naturally use more Yggs, and your example is SinX, lol.

SinX's cloak, backslide, run away, and attack when they are EDP'd most of the time,

I think it's better if they don't heal quickly because that's why they dominate the PvP.

It's not fair that SinX get a big power boost for a few minutes and can hide on top of that, unhide

anyone that's cloaking and thanks to delay reductions, spam Sonic Blow on top of each other which

can produce a good 20k per hit?

Interesting.

Even so, it is a good suggestion even up till now, because it is only a suggestion. The only things that changed are the players.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Mei

[kuoch]

Ok, I pretty much skimmed through a lot of it, since I need to go out and run errands for a bit. But here is what I think;

I don't see why using yggdrasils is a problem for anyone honestly. The server itself has come over these suggestions countless of times. As the fact of being able to use storage outside of PvP arena, such as the fields or WoE, I think it's a good thing that we could use storage. Sure, sometimes the PvP is unfair outside, since everyone abuses it, everyone does it. And as you said, the Arena is really dead inside, and I wish it was really populated as it is outside in the fields, but the reason why no one goes in there is because when people tend to ladder inside the Arena, it's not even a PvP. It's just a massive gang on one person. I've been there, that's how the Arena works in this server, a massive party ganging on one guy. Everyone just dies as they load in. As for the fields, I see it as a place for everyone to just sit around talk and get to know the community, sure there are a few scumbags who just kills everyone on sight, but the PvP community is usually just want to sit around and talk with one another. You have to understand, I know it hard to get accustomed to it, but the community is really nice.

But as for your yggdrasil idea, on limiting them to an amount of usage;

I understand where you're getting at. Since berries are full restores. But there are a lot of broken weapons on this server, I mean a lot. It's ridiculous. They only way anyone could stay alive is to spam berries, as sad as it sounds. I know where you're getting at when you say "Champs could win with FO." "Sinx can cloak and backslide." But with all the unbalanced weapons, it makes it hard to not use berries. I know you want us to use the utilities we have on our classes, but we need the berries to fall back on. Let alone all the macros that everyone uses on this server, might I say it really ridiculous also. But we also have some decent reducts which the server gives, and yes it's still really hard to even stay alive, unless you're one of those players who just runs for reducts. But all I could really say is, this server need the berries to fall back on. If we were willing to add a delay on the berry usage, the server itself would need a worldwide nerf on a lot of items.

As I said, I skimmed through this, you're free to correct me on anything, no harms done.

Also, I've been here for a long time. 4-5 years say the least. I come on to visit the community to see how it's doing. Back in the days, there weren't many items that were as broken as it is now. Maybe if you came 4 years earlier, your suggestion could of possibly made a difference. But with all these new things coming out, I don't think it'll work out so fairly well.

[Mint]

I am not tackling class specific. But here goes.

Champs don't need Asura to win, they can FO or Combo Asura, or use BLUE POTS.

Champs are not good because of Asura spam.

Get Lady Tannee, get blue pots.

Classes that naturally use more Yggs, and your example is SinX, lol.

SinX's cloak, backslide, run away, and attack when they are EDP'd most of the time,

I think it's better if they don't heal quickly because that's why they dominate the PvP.

It's not fair that SinX get a big power boost for a few minutes and can hide on top of that, unhide

anyone that's cloaking and thanks to delay reductions, spam Sonic Blow on top of each other which

can produce a good 20k per hit?

Interesting.

Even so, it is a good suggestion even up till now, because it is only a suggestion. The only things that changed are the players.

I urge you to try to ladder with just FO, and of course Blue Pots! Blue pots are for sure the solution to asura spamming without ygg berries! (if you're happy with a 20k asura).

Oh and as you stated, sinx's are able to put out huge amounts of damage in a matter of seconds, so the only way to prevent this is to put delays on yggs, the one thing that will save your life vs a sonic blow sinx~ ? :S

As Items/cards change, so does the way classes are played, the damage output of classes, the skills they use etc.., it's not just the players that change

[Mei]

@mint

We are still talking class specific again?

That's why I also suggested an increase in heal ability for the secondary healing items such as blue pots.

An for your comment on Sinxs, you have many loopholes:

1. It's pvp, so you're going to die regardless of the speed, so if a sinx kills someone in a few seconds, then this links directly to my "we deal too much damage" section (if you read my whole thread). Just use undead/shadow/poison armor or other form of resist or cloak and run like they do.

Plus the player can always come back and come after them; SinXs are strong, but not invincible.

2. I suggested a limit to the yggs held OR a delay, in the long run, if a delay were to be made it wouldn't matter because everyone supposedly does die fast. Reason being because of the constant ygg spamming. No one expects themselves to be invincible and live forever in a pvp environment. Besides, like most people, as I stated, on the brink of death, they teleport away undignified.

This relates to the changing of all classes HP modifiers or damage modifiers, even changing the formula for edp is an option.

I am not being bias, I am only being reasonable. While I understand your point of the situation, I am still not convinced.

[Mint]

@mei

Undead/shadow/poison armor doesn't protect against a good sinx because they should have a small supply of other converters anyway (E.g BoS).

Also, a ygg limit does nothing because it doesn't stop people from hiding, running & logging/warping to refresh their supply of berries/seeds so it will just cause more frustration and arguments if anything.

[Mei]

You're implying thy there are many "good" sinx on this server. But I'm looking in a broader sense, not just "good" in a narrow sense. But my sinx comment was quite narrow so ill give you that.

So basically, we're not talking about yggs anymore; this is more of a pvp thing now.

I asked the question as to why is there a pvp room but the popular pvp hangout is a pk map. Why not just have pk on normal maps removed instead to make this thread progress a lot easier.

Sure this is a pvp server, but that's why there are pvp rooms. If this was the case, having a limit set on yggs would be beneficial in that scenario or remove yggs from pvp and make useful changes to the classes specifically like modifying their stats.

Keep the pvp in the pvp room and most of the frustrations and arguments would be adhered to and make this argument a bit less bias. Because then it would only be the case of their usage to heal in pvp. Which I do not agree too. Being healed to max at any instant is cheap, an that is my personal bias. It's because that they are allowed, is why people constantly teleport away to replenish, so remove them from the equation and let other healing items come into to the picture.

Yes, they can teleport away, but removing yggs will discourage that because it would show how undignified they are about losing. Lets keep the ladder and player biases out of this equation and focus on how t can affect pvp in just the pvp room if in theory, pk from normal maps were removed.

This is also why commands like @duel exist.

Back to your previous reply, I feel it is the players that change, the items are just items. New items would definitely be subject to change; it's about how the players adapt to it.

[Mei]

@kuoch

Thank you for actually responding to the points I made in my post with your own counterpoints. You mention that there may be some douches along the way, but that having pk maps can be beneficial to the community.

I agree. There's nothing worse than having a server of people that just either don't communicate or hate eachother.

I can somewhat withdraw what I said about removing pk in maps.

Yes, unbalanced gear, so why don't they get balanced, or better yet, balance out the classes and certain cards so that it can be more beneficial than changing he gears themselves. So you're saying that the yggs are a way to balance the unbalanced gear? That's kind of an interesting way to put it. The problem lies not in the yggs but in the gears themselves then. Why don't they stray away from just having forsaken set, and better yet, take off the freeze immunity from thy set and make people have to use stat resists.

I can see that this thread will soon be about the balance in pvp.

Your post has me slightly convinced, they are all valid, but I cannot respond to them since I'm currently at work.

Thanks!

Edited January 18, 2013 by Mei

[Shadi]

I thought the reasons why this was declined before were obvious.

-Saying that "this is a high rate server" is a weak argument.

Wrong. for ALL healing items, other than the ones that heal an percentage such as seeds and berries, the item scaling would have to be manually modified to be of any used in a highrate server. Since this would takes ages to do (unless you do a select few basic healing items) it is a very legit argument that on a high rate server regular healing items are not of any use unless altered completely. Altering these items would also require you to alter the source code. And as the rules of suggestions state, source code changes should not be suggested. It's unfortunate but that's the way it is for now.

-Saying that HP modifier is too low is a weak argument unless you have something decent to back it up.

Think you misunderstood the meaning of the comment in the other topic. The rate of survivability is something else than a simple HP modifier. The current damage output on the server is way too high to remove the use of yggs or add a delay on them. Your simple suggestion to "nerf all damage" would include nerfs to almost every single item released in the last few years. Many of these implemented items are donation items. Changing all these donation items will make the shit hit the fan. Even though the server is entitled to editing item effects at any time, you simply can't start changing every item on the server to lower damage output.

The damage is high? Get Resists. You have crap HP? Get modifiers. Whatever!

Even when using all resists available, and the best HP modifiers currently in the game, some classes can still burst you down. Unless you ygg of course. Your arguments make sense, don't get me wrong but again, this would include nerfing almost every single item on the server. Or as you stated add a global damage reduction on all maps. This would mean adding a mapflag for every single PK field (which is almost all areas) for a global damage reduction in those maps. Maybe this could be an idea for a custom PvP map. Disabling the use off yggs, only allowing the normal potions and reducing all damage done in the map by xx%. Of course there would be a lot more to it but you can't expect a mapflag on each map to reduce the damage.

Do not disable the use of Yggs, but limit the amount that can be held at one time or add a delay after the use of a ygg.. or ANY healing item for that matter. For the sake of it, add a delay for healing item use for all healing items. But I do stick by my suggestion of limiting the amount to be held, so that people can not run into storage and grab more (this applies to pvps out of the PvP room and WoE since commands are disabled in the PvP Rooms).

Also, that 150 ygg gift crap that can be abused by remaking the character; yeah, could that be lowered to say... 25~50?

How are you suggesting we balance this out? How would you suggest the amount of yggs/berries that one can carry? You can NOT make this a steady number as some classes would have a way bigger advantage by a steady number than others. So what other options are there?

Also how on earth can a 150 ygg gift be abuseable? 150 yggs can fade within a single fight. They are untradeable and unstoreable so one can not make multiple characters to store the yggs and use them. Leveling up a character comepletely takes more time than hunging 150 yggs so no difference there.

1. Increase HP/SP Modifiers for classes reasonably by source modification.

2. Decrease damage output for all class by % when in PK/PvP/GvG/etc maps. (Although, damage in WoE should already be reduced by default)

Again source edits.

7. Make a nerf on Thanatos, because that seems to be where some of the damage is coming from. (Make it so it's damage is increased based on soft def, rather than hard def. Soft Def = Vit Based, Hard Def = Armor Based so [ Def 000+000 is Hard Def + Soft Def])

8. Idk, disable thanatos in WoE? <--- Kind of far-fetched, but reasonable in a broad sense.

Thanatos actually is one of the weaker cards on here. We have a custom card called Skoll card which completely nullifies thanatos' effect.

If the idea of balance changes and nerfs are dissatisfying or would take too long, then I would personally argue that, that is just laziness on the higher ups part, and possible stubbornness on the player's part. (Do not take this as an offense, this is merely my logical opinion.)

Changing this has nothing to do with "lazyness" or "stubbornness". By applying the changes you have suggested they'd have to:

1: Change several thousand items.

2: Add several source code changes.

3: Add map flags on all fields and dungeons....

And I can go on. basically you'd be remaking the server by doing all this.

I asked the question as to why is there a pvp room but the popular pvp hangout is a pk map. Why not just have pk on normal maps removed instead to make this thread progress a lot easier.

People like to sit down and watch pvp as well. This is something that can't be done in the pvp room so people find their way out to one of the fields. Here they are left alone more often because the bullies don't get anything by killing them on the field. While at the pvp room however you get to be in the ladder.

All in all. I do like the idea for something like a seperate PvP map to add another way of fighting without the consumables and with big mapflagged damage reduction. However you can't just change this for the entire server because it would require way too much.

[Veracity]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately myself as some new players bring this up with me too. I think it's a completely legitimate criticism, especially since people come from a diverse range of servers and are often times accustomed to very different environments than what we have here. I do not think the dependence on yggs has anything to do with the custom weapons we have at all, ygging has ALWAYS played a predominant role on this server.

Some things we would consider are: a) limiting the amount of yggs players can carry b) adding a slight cool down on yggs c) possibly making it so they don't heal 100% hp/sp. This of course is a very delicate issue, as it has been like it is now since the server has opened. It has pros and cons to the way it is now. For instance, for new players, yggs can help them compete in PvP against better geared players; on the down side, though, they're going to have significantly less yggs at their disposal than older players and will be at a disadvantage in that regard. Point being, almost every person who plays here is going to resist you on this because people generally do not like change. However, for the good of the server, the staff is willing to be involved in a serious discussion about this.

As Shadi already pointed out, doing exactly what you suggested would basically be remaking the entire server. Changing many of our custom items, completely altering the way the server has worked for the past 5 years. That's a huge change and frankly isn't very reasonable. What's the most realistic and ideal course of action to take would be adding a new PvP room which limits the amount of yggs players can carry. There would definitely need to be extensive testing done before any wide scale changes took place on the server, and if there were, it would have to be gradual. However, implementing any significant changes to yggs on a server wide scale is very unlikely. I'm not entirely opposed to it, but it is unlikely.

That being said, I think this is a discussion worth having. Thank you for your thoughtful post and thank you to those who have responded in a similarly well thought out manner backed up with legitimate points. I'd be interested in hearing more well thought out responses from people either in favor or against this change.

[Mei]

@chihaab

Explain your position

@shadi

I will respond more later, but I have vast knowledge of server creation as I have owned as administered one in the past and have served as a Senior GM in others. I know fairly well how my suggestions were when I laid them out. I think you over exaggerated it just a bit too far. I will explain why this is not a server remake

Your first point. I do not want all of them altered, even if that we're the case, it is not a source modification. It takes an edit in the item_db in the SQL database which is far different from a source edit, thus meaning this is doable.

Point two, no, I am not asking for an item modification, I asked for a class damage nerd as in regular output damage per class. If the items were to be edited, the only thing I'd change about them is the ATK and not the effect.

I am at work now so I will edit this post later on to fill your other points.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Mei

[Rayray]

My first question that i didn't really see you answer in your topic starter- Why is spamming yggs a problem? I can't really make a complete argument without that so I will just mostly reiterate my points on the previous topic. I just skimmed through your topic so feel free to correct me, i am at work so i cannot fully read what you said, i just got the gist of it.

Ok i agree with Shadi and almost everything he said is what I am about to type anyway, so I'll just add a few of my own..

Ygg spamming is ALWAYS gonna be class specific. at this moment, like kuoch and shadi mentioned, it is practically impossible to balance classes out just for the reason to remove ygg spamming. as Shadi mentioned, it requires nerfing of certain items and changing a item codes which isn't practical. some classes will have a big disadvantage if we do that, no matter what we change.

On making a pvp room that limits ygg. i can agree to that, but would anyone enter it? I already find the ND pvp room irrelevant, adding one more pvp room that actually limits ygg, i don't think people would actually go in there. especially as it favors certain classes that could hit and run, even if you balance things out, it will still favor a few classes.

I believe you have read my tests on the previous topic. I USE BIOCHEMIST/CREATOR. I mained it ever since I came back to this server a few months ago. Sure, you dont see people using it, but it doesn't mean that everyone uses sinx or champs In fact, I read about your argument about healing using brewed potions and what not. isn't it bias? I mean, if we limit seeds/berries altogether, doesn't it also favor the ones with innate healing skills? won't everyone use those classes then?

On a biochemist point of view, limiting seeds/berries is a huge disadvantage because biochemists :

1. has no innate escape mechanism like backslide or cloak

2. has shitty hp modifier even if the effects of tao gunka is already raised for merchant classes.

3. doesn't have a big burst damage skill except acid demonstration which is so easily reduced with gr and raydrics and a few more items

sure, i can use sinx card for the lvl 3 cloak, i can use antique firelocks on shoes for the hp, i can raise int and use the valk weapon to increase acid demonstration damage. i tried that, I tried and tested most things and see if limiting yggs is viable. with the damage output, no it isn't. And this will just force hit and run tactics which is worse than ygg spamming.

We are not a low rate server, in a low rate environment, berries play a huge advantage. if you use a berry then, it would take someone around 3-5 or more seconds to bring your hp down. In here, if you use a berry one time, you need to use it again less than 2 seconds later. technically (although not exactly) seeds/berries here is the mastela fruit on low rates. sure, mastela doesn't heal full or half of your total hp, but the heal of it is high enough on the damage done on those servers. you still spam it, and winning in low rate custom servers is still on who holds the most mastela/healing item. which is why WS and sinx and LKs are the top classes in low rates. other classes have a hard time there, because they hold less mastela

You saying that some of the replies on the previous topic, stating them as "weak arguments" is actually a weak argument for you. you technically limited what some older players might say even though they are completely valid. let's start on it.

1. Highrate server argument- this is a high rate server with custom items. how can that be a weak argument when it is true. you simply cannot compare OTHER high rate or low rate servers you have played on since we are completely different. you might have played in a high rate server with no berries, but have you played long enough here with no berries. no matter what your experience is in other servers, you are still a newbie here, that fact remains. stop comparing it if you havent done tests here.

2. hp modifier- i used every class imaginable, i know for a fact that 100 vit on an LK gives bigger hp than 100 vit on a biochemist. changing every class's hp modifier to keep them at par with the others is kinda pointless. it's like having the same base character, same hp and sp but with different skills.

3. class specific- balancing something, not against it, but impractical to do just for a reason to limit yggs which is not a problem in the first place. i've been here long enough, and i gotta say, the server is at it's peak of being balanced(even though some items are not). way back in 2007, everyone is on sinx and champ because that is the only class you can really pvp. nowadays, you see almost every class. I don't see it being unbalanced because of yggs in any sort of way. some weapons are imbalanced, true, but at this point in the server, everyone can pvp using most classes. not just two or three classes. biochemists cannot even pvp well a few years ago that they sunk to just being fcp slaves. not the case now

4. Pvp server argument- yeah, that one argument is too broad but it is still true. pvp server with high damage output, I would like to see you use other healing items beside yggs and seeds and survive for more than 10 seconds. it just isnt possible. and yeah we can nerf and balance it out to your preference but my question is why? again, seeds/berries are never a problem in here. why is it a problem for you in the first place?

5. too lazy to farm yggs- some people are lazy to farm yggs(like the previous topic starter), and that is why they wanted that. also, you saying the thread is about the server and not you is a weak argument since YOU started the thread. you haven't really played in the server long enough and already made assumptions..

6. been this way long enough- well, it really did. EVERYONE of us older players have adjusted to it, and you as a new player should try to adjust to it first, before making a suggestion to it. because your arguments will always be bias if you haven't tried it yet. you say "it's about how the players adapt to the items". i honestly think you haven't adapted yet on the berry/seed environment. i suggest you try it first, by then you can make valid arguments and not assumptions you got from other servers.

7. pvp without berries- you did pvp without berries, is it on this server or another one? if it is on a different server, then your argument is invalid, since we have different items than that server.

8.we like things the way it is- isn't it supposed to be a majority thing? if tons of people agree that yggs are a part of this server's pvp, would the GMs accept your suggestion and implement it anyway?

My main argument is you haven't really been here long enough to actually get the whole "feel" of the server. you just made assumptions based on your experiences in the other servers. If you want, we can test out some things first so that you can practically understand what I'm getting at. feel free to message me here in the forums if you wanted some tests done.

Edited January 19, 2013 by ZerO25

[Mei]

Here is the problem with this reply, especially near the end. You stated I made assumptions, and while reading back, apparently assumptions were implied by me, I disagree, please quote them. But then you said that I haven't been here long enough. I don't agree that I can accept that as a valid excuse for my criticism. Because I can simply say that you, or everyone here for the matter has been here far longer than me and are on a bias because they aren't or wouldn't be tentative (Veracity quote); but I'm not, because it's not reasonable. However, you guys on the other hand can comfortably say such and such because of seniority. However, I'm not gonna get to that.

I got the feel of the server as soon as I began PvPing, regardless of how long I've been here, I've been everywhere and there are servers I've been to far similar to this. Everything I said are in regards to this server, nothing else. I may have implied my comparison to other servers, but I may have been making a vague example.

Adjust to it? I've never been able to adjust to any form of instant healing in any kind of battle (Even on the official server, I'm actually geared and a top tier player to not need them, not that gears actually matter here since the "top" gear only give HP). On top of that, people are running away from battles consistently. I can deal with Hit and Run tactics, because that is a valid tactic to use while in a battle, all it takes is the right tools to counter it. But literally teleporting away from a battle just to heal is something that, I believe, some people including me does not like.

The best players on ladder rely on yggs and spam, where is the strategy. <--- Not relevant, but felt like it should be there.

Basically you ask for more of my personal opinions on the subject matter, just to shut them down.

The reason why I am limiting what older players might say, is to remove the bias of seniority.

Instant healing is a never ending battle, there is no skill involved; just spam.

I see that I cannot compete with seniority (Even though I said I would not mention that).

Even with a laid out claim, majority of the rebuttals are various variations of the same thing, and since I have no one on my side, I guess it's pointless, because the only thing I get from half of these responses is "why" and the questions are aiming at me personally, and those are responses I cannot reply to simply because all I can say personally is "I don't know, I just dislike it", this type of comment would make me instantly bias which is what I want to prevent, but I guess there is always bias regardless.

So the only way my argument will no longer be bias is if I play longer? That's not how it works. You say I make assumptions, please quote me on those assumptions, and I will clarify. I have not said anything in regards to other servers except for the fact that I said I played many servers. I even stated that yggs are rather necessary when it comes to low rate, but I immediately made an opposing point when it came to this.

Sure, don't worry about the "entire server remake", but I do have ideas for decent item modifications and nerfs to balance this system more decently.

Since seniority follows seniority, I will play longer and get the "feel" and "adapt" to this server. Since I don't know any better, as a "newbie", I will learn as much as can before coming back with this suggestion again. I'm not dropping this subject easily; do expect more drawn out suggestions from me in the future when I am no longer a "newbie".

Next time my points will have no bias, and adhere to every point made here. I now know the biases I'm going to face later on.

My take away from the main point I've seen, is "suck it up".

The question of yggs is now balance, the point of this thread is null. I do not see a reason to continue this discussion.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Mei

[kuoch]

Ok, there is a lot to read, so I'm just going to reply to what you have pointed at me. I read a lot of shit at school already, I don't want to read more than I already do. Anyways;

Yes, unbalanced gear, so why don't they get balanced, or better yet, balance out the classes and certain cards so that it can be more beneficial than changing he gears themselves. So you're saying that the yggs are a way to balance the unbalanced gear? That's kind of an interesting way to put it. The problem lies not in the yggs but in the gears themselves then. Why don't they stray away from just having forsaken set, and better yet, take off the freeze immunity from thy set and make people have to use stat resists.

I can see that this thread will soon be about the balance in pvp.

Yes, and I still do think yggdrasils are the only way to keep the server going without it stirring into a turmoil. Sure it would be nice to actually see some of these equipment modification happen, trust me, seeing all these new shit gives me a headache. Trust me I would love to see it. Specially with a few new items you could run a party quest with, also the new castle drops (Come on guys, 800K HP Paladins. That is ludicrous. Lmao) But, in the end I just see it as the server changes and gets new updates, we just adapt to what we get and what we gain. The server changed a lot of the years, there would be so many things we would have to change to even get a "balance" server to what we have now, and I honestly think, yggdrasil may be one of those things that could keep things being out of hand. And plus, I honestly don't think all these equipment modification will make so many players on this server so happy at all. Last thing we need is a bunch of angry players having to adapt to a new change.

Only thing I can think of as of right now is a "Restricted" PvP room.

• Cool downs on Yggdrasils, but you're able to spam white/blue/whatever pots as you please.
• Not being able to go inside with any forsaken item customed equipments. ie.King/Elite/Knight sets. etc. (Weapons also)
• Can't use a certain amount of cards.
• Maybe make custom cards for this Arena
• I don't know, have it keep track of your kills and death, get a prize in the end.

I'm just chucking ideas out right now, that's the only thing I can think of that this server could just add for the whole issue we have here. But it's like I said when it comes down to it, the Arena will still be just as dead, and the fields will always be lively. And I've done that so many times, where I would want to do PvP ladder and no one goes in the Arena, but the outside of the Arena, everyone is having a fuck ton of fun out there. Real fun. |:.

As for yggdrasils, I don't think the server itself will go for a server wide change, like I said before, there is just to much work to do and time to put in. I don't know anything about script or whatever you have to do to change in game codes or whatever, but the admin itself maybe just doesn't have the time to actually go through that whole process of doing so. Who knows. But in the end, You and I both just need to learn how to adapt, sorry to say. It's hard, but we can manage.

[Luxiana]

You call us bias, but what are you? You're literally saying that us, who have been here for 4 years plus, have a biased points of view on this. Isn't that biased from the start already? We are just trying to make you understand what would have happened if the server would suddenly go through no ygg spam change. Call us bias for that, but you are no better than us then. I've been here myself for more than four years too, and trust me I know through what the server has gone, and what would benefit it and what not. This doesn't make me tell you that you are biased in some way, it should just explain to you there's people who know about the server a little bit more than you do. Please try to understand us in order to make us understand you. Calling people biased just because they're "seniors" of the server and thingking your own, isn't understanding them.

What you're trying to make us understand is the fact something that's been suggested so many times and people did not like it for a reason - otherwise it would've been accepted quite of the time ago. It's what makes fRO, maybe a tiny bit different from other servers, since Ygg Seeds and Berries are able to use on WoEs and in PvP. It should benefit both "sides" - the "newbies" and the "seniors". Don't you think that if we disable them, or make a cooldown for them it's going to make a huge imbalance? Let's try to explain it to you this way:

Example 1

Player A is a not fully geared player entering a PvP map. He's been spending time on fRO for few months, so he has some basic stuff. Player B is infact a veteran of the server, he's skilled, he knows what he's doing, and he has all the gears he needs. What would've happened if A and B happen to either WoE against each other, or clash together in PvP? Ofcourse B has a huge advantage. On Warpable maps, A could just simply warp away. But in other unwarpable areas, berries or seeds could help keeping him alive - especially on WoEs where there's a possiblity of people either helping him, or B just simply start aiming someone else. Without berries, with the current damage output he's dead in 1 second. Literally.

Example 2

Player A and Player B are both veterans of the game. Both geared, both with same chance of survivability. Now let's check if these two people would participate GvG with their guilds (with all pretty much geared up members) without berries. Paladins would eventually fall off, since Devotion is pretty much relied on Yggdrasil spam. GvG would last, well, let's say, 5 to 10 minutes. People would die in span of 3-5 seconds. Is that fun? I don't think so.

You can say, they can all just warp away or they can use any other kinds of healing stuff. But to put it bluntly, we've had an Annhilation event here already, where Yggdrasil berries use was disabled, and if you check up on it now, it was closed down - probably because of lack of participation. That should explain to you that, people here are not exactly interested in disabling Ygging system or nerfing it, or whatever it is. But even if we do make a PvP room like this, it'll just be as kuoch said - empty, and outside there will still be a lot of fun.

Don't get me wrong though - it seems like you have a lot of knowledge about Ragnarok servers in general, and it seems like you are a great person when it comes to point something out, but I highly doubt that, even after two or three years, if you come up with a suggestion to disable/nerf Yggdrasil Berries or Seeds, with how the server stands at the moment, that it will be accepted.

[Norse_Joog]

^_^

Edited January 19, 2013 by Norse_Joog

[Norse_Joog]

I don’t like to enter this argument

But this lines lines tend to pull my attention

1. So you're saying that the yggs are a way to balance the unbalanced gear?

I say YES, it is a way to balance it since Yggs plays a major role on survivability during disadvantaging situations. I prefer YOU TRY IT ON PVP

2. The problem lies not in the yggs but in the gears themselves then.

I disagree also with this, it is not the gears are the problem. I tried and encoutered it myself.

I may be one of the many average or noob players during PVPs but It's a shame that I myself a full geared player with forsaken king set and donation weapons get beatin up by just a trolling champ with just forsaken knight set.

King's Set VS Knight's Set ? Clearly one has already had the advantage.

But I still got beatin.

So I say its not the gears but the players skills actually regardless with the network lags and cheaters mainly BN users, Macro, etc.

3. take off the freeze immunity from thy set and make people have to use stat resists.

For example CHAMPS

Champs already have huge advantage with their damage so taking off immunity to freeze will even more add a huge advantage for champs since alternative immunity to freeze cards are as far as i know is use for armor and it already can make other characters at risk in the absence of Tao Gunka card in favor to gain immunity to freeze. ( Stated on stalker redux topic )

It's too much advantage for just one character such champ so I disagree with it.

You really got a nice post, good discussion, well explained but like the others I completely disagree with your idea to put some changes on Yggs.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Norse_Joog

[supream]

Sigh to many points to respond to. I'll just say that yggs, and seeds are one of the corner stones of the economy, Although there not worth a lot they are always in demand. If you were to spend all your time farming these things you could eventually own everything you want on the server. The economy is already in a troubled state with little buyers and nerfing yggs will just hurt it even more. There are a lot of other reasons why we shouldn't do it but I don't (nor care to) go into more detail.

[Aerynth]

Too much has been said about this topic. You should know by now how this is going to be. Good read though, cheers.

[donmhico]

Well since this is an open forum and even new FRO players can give opinions, I might as well give mine.

First and foremost, I disagree with the suggestion. Yggberry and seeds should stay as it is now. I also played on official ro and there's no delay on pots / mastela. Just think of it like this, ygg here = mastela on low rate / official servers. Someone already pointed this out and I completely agree with that person.

Next,

I believe that the custom gears here are pretty well-balanced compared to other servers. Even the donates are balanced. What makes me say this? Well, i have a sinx that has decent gear (L.Wep, L.Knight Set, L.Gaunts and Silver MVPS) and i can kill other characters with capes / donates. It only took a couple of trial attack to get the proper element / cards and boom. I don't want to brag but the point is, even both of us can spam ygg. A complete non-donor char can compete with the donors, or a 1-month old char can kill seniors here.

Finally.

"Not all characters are made to do 1-on-1 PvP". So if your a creator and keep on complaining because you can't compete with a sinx then put the blame on ygg spamming then please................................ I mean your character is a creator, your meant to create. and your trying to kill an assassin which is a character meant to kill. But that said, everything will be different on team plays especially woe where every class has a role.

Anyway, this thread was a looooooong read, but it's good to hear opinions and suggestions from other players. Just keep on suggesting and everyone on the forum will try to balance things. Everything is for making FRO a better server right?

=)

[Rayray]

^ in all honesty, I main creator and I never really had much problems with sinx, so yeah, I agree with you.

[Veracity]

I think all of the reasons why this would be problematic here has already been covered. Thanks for your thoughtful suggestion, though!