Sp Increase

[supream]

since my last suggestion was about a fix, and you guys said it was never broken. how about a sp boost. and or sp consumption reduce. ill let other people comment on how much.

[Xtopher]

If you mean the Lord Knight Valkyrie weapon then I agree with your suggestion.

+100 sp or -25% SP usage would be nice.

*********EDIT************

I've reconsidered this and disagree. I'll post reasons below.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Xtopher

[Phenomenon]

Hello. The Lord Knight Halberd edit was a good move. Their damage was way too high and the chance of casting coma was very dangerous and outclass almost all classes with it's offensive prowess. Now the Lord Knight still does decent, but not over powered damage, and always has the possibility of switching to a coma-exclusive weapon, such as Edge or Guillotine, if that's the path they choose to take. They are still versatile in that they have a high walking speed, high HP and the capability of escaping ganging/pushing-back enemies/force and RSX change as well as having the option of either opting for long range or close range combat. But the SP base percentage increase that was added for the weapon does barely anything to increase a huge problems which LKs face, which is consuming their HP far too quickly. It barely increases SP on a Lord Knight using 2 Fallen Bishop Hibram Cards (standard) by 15. I feel that to not only compensate for the change in the weapon, they should add a flat SP increase to the weapon of about 250 in order to help Lord Knights with the SP issue which they face.

[OverRated]

i am pretty sure that wish said there was an sp increase. But 2 fbh would bring the increase down.

Most classes do tend to have trouble with the amount of Sp consumed since most have only like 240 sp without adding any int.

id just suggest not putting a + 250 flat increase. just add some int. Its your choice if you wish to do more damage or more health. So just sacrifice a little bit and put some int. no one really complained of the lack of int when the wep was above average.

Edited November 7, 2010 by OverRated

[Cirrus]

Let's look at the facts:

• 2 FBHs bog down the flat rate increase.
• A huge % will not be so viable when it comes to a pair of boots without 2x FBHs.
• A big flat rate value will be needed to compensate for 2x FBHs, and it will raise LK non-FBH SP too much.

So... seems like we might need a %. It can't be too big or we'll run across the problem a high-value flat rate increase presents. It can't be too low or it will be like how it was before (15%).

I can run some tests, anyone's welcome to suggest a value. Remember, flat-rate increases apparently take effect before %s (I still had 1 SP wearing the Halberd, without F.Cloak, on 2 FBHs.)

[supream]

i see what your saying cirrus. not many people attack without fbh on anyways so wouldnt see the problem, but someone would find a way to make it one. we might need a % increase. to make a flat sp boost that would make a good effect on fbh we would need like +1k sp or something. try 40%. or if this is way to hard maybe some reduce consumption by half. sounds like alot. but it would be the same as doubling sp on fbh i guess. if anyone has anything better let me know.

[Cirrus]

The SP consumption thing actually sounds better, glad you thought of that.

I used random %SP cards/equipment (to see how much SP it gives me) without the Halberd.

Control: F.Set, GVH, Emp, Ruck (Cloak gives 15% SP default, 2 FBHS): 220 SP

Usage of Morpheus Accessories will have slight deviation from % values, as it also gives INT+1, this should be a very minimal effect (like +1 SP? not sure.)

Equipment used:

Moonlight Dagger: 10% SP

Hollowring card: 12% SP

Morpheus' Ring: 5% SP, INT+1

Morpheus' Bracelet: 5% SP, INT+1

I used a Moonlight Dagger as a weapon (10% SP): 368 SP.

I used Moonlight Dagger + Morpheus' Ring (15% SP): 444 SP.

I used Moonlight Dagger + Morpheus' Ring + Morpheus' Bracelet (20% SP): 521 SP.

I used 2 Hollowring cards in Cloak (24% SP): 574 SP.

I used 2 Hollowing cards + Morpheus' Ring (29% SP): 651 SP.

I used 2 Hollowring cards + Moonlight Dagger (34% SP): 721 SP.

I used 2 Hollowring cards + Moonlight Dagger + Morpheus' Ring (39% SP): 799 SP.

I used 2 Hollowring cards + Moonlight Dagger + Morpheus' Ring + Morpheus' Bracelate (44% SP): 879 SP.

These may be good values, anyone care to test the trend out on their own LKs?

[supream]

how about we do half sp boost and half sp consumption.

[L2Aim]

2 words solves the problem:

Yggdrasil Berry

You have raw strength & health, but lack SP, balance your build or use consumables to lower the annoyance of a pure damage orientated item/stat build.

Your endurance is health, casters have SP, wanting to have both will create further balance problems (not directly, but eventually).

[supream]

bumb

[Xtopher]

****EDIT****

Changed my opinion on this topic.

See post below.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Xtopher

[supream]

dracula card was never any good.

[Ryuk]

All classes have little to no sp when using double fbh, I can agree on a little boost but not a massive one. Since the lack of SP SHOULD be a disadvantage of the card.

In my opinion it would be + (10% SP): 368 SP. (so you have 368 sp with 1 base int) , and 15-20% SP reduction. Should be more than enough.

[supream]

368sp with a 15-20% reduce in sp consumption sounds like a winner to me.

[supream]

can this get accepted anytime soon?

[zac]

its very easy to script parameters for the weapon to check if fbh is equipted, to then give a sp increase afterwards.

@supream: i used to spam focused arrow all day with dracula card man while still doing good damage.. it was my ability to continuously spam without wasting yggs that made me have the edge in some duels.

Edited January 4, 2011 by zac

[jorgesilvera]

I disagree.

[Masahiro]

@supream: i used to spam focused arrow all day with dracula card man while still doing good damage.. it was my ability to continuously spam without wasting yggs that made me have the edge in some duels.

hahaha<3 good times lolol

but u know it isnt as viable w/ lks

Sp needs need to be met.

but even if they don't wanna inc the sp atm, inc the damage to balance that aspect..either 1 or the other

but thats another post entirely.

"lks currently cannot ever win on endurance w/ the current ygg whoring nature required to quench that vampyric Sp usage."

(=D)

Edited January 5, 2011 by Masahiro

[Xtopher]

2 words solves the problem:

Yggdrasil Berry

You have raw strength & health, but lack SP, balance your build or use consumables to lower the annoyance of a pure damage orientated item/stat build.

Your endurance is health, casters have SP, wanting to have both will create further balance problems (not directly, but eventually).

Exactly. If you want something great (High damage, infinite spam, epic stun lock, range) such as spiral then you must be prepared to give something up and in this case it's SP.

LKs have tons of hp, their main stat is str, and on top that their pecos boost their carrying capacity so they hold a lot of yggs.

Given your high HP rate you're capable of holding off on ygging to heal your self. It's damn near impossible for some classes to outlast a LK without just running the whole time. The damage they do isn't bad either so you're dishing out 5-7k ea hit with spiral which hits 5x so...25-35k damage that can be spammed endlessly ands stunlocks the target. I think the low sp is a fair balance to the class.

Sacrifice a kiel/fsoldier for a pharaoh card. Try a fbh/firelock combo with goldenring weapon.

[Masahiro]

lol this still isnt fixed..

this and 100 other suggestions..idk Gms you need to be a bit more proactive, or at least voice your opinion in some of these suggestion threads..sometimes months go by and not a word

and idk if you read it or not, only you would. so don't say "i read it 100x in that month"

sometimes idk the logic behind when u accept and reject suggestions..anyways..mini rant over

.. READ THIS and other suggestions

[Genesis]

lol this still isnt fixed..

this and 100 other suggestions..idk Gms you need to be a bit more proactive, or at least voice your opinion in some of these suggestion threads..sometimes months go by and not a word

and idk if you read it or not, only you would. so don't say "i read it 100x in that month"

sometimes idk the logic behind when u accept and reject suggestions..anyways..mini rant over

.. READ THIS and other suggestions

Well, if you look at the suggestion forum you will see that we've spent the last 7 hours filtering suggestions and compiling a todo list. Just because your suggestion doesn't get accepted (seeing as many people disagree with it) doesn't mean we aren't proactive. The fix was implemented weeks if not months ago. It gives a bonus SP, not a percentage. Which means you get 250 base SP no matter what. Now, let's look at FBH's effect: MATK + 10%, Maximum SP - 50%, Increases damage inflicted on Demihuman and Angel monster by 50%. Doing some basic math: 50 + 50 = 100%. -100% = 0, or 1 in RO calculations. That's why you have 1 SP a lot of the time. Now, if you want to suggest a change specifically for FBH for LK, I think you should address some of the points Xtopher and L2Aim have brought up (which I think are valid based on my extensive experience with LKs). I try to keep my opinions to myself when discussing suggestions since people bandwagon alot. It allows the community to decide the changes they deem needed/appropriate with a specifically designated GM overseeing what is going to be changed. I wish I could dedicate myself to this full time but alas, that is not a possibility. I feel as if people don't remember that no one here get's anything from spending our free time working for you. Some consideration for what you do get is appreciated. Once my concerns (what Xtopher and L2Aim suggested) are resolved, I'd be more than willing to implement a change.

[Masahiro]

Well, if you look at the suggestion forum you will see that we've spent the last 7 hours filtering suggestions and compiling a todo list. Just because your suggestion doesn't get accepted (seeing as many people disagree with it) doesn't mean we aren't proactive. The fix was implemented weeks if not months ago. It gives a bonus SP, not a percentage. Which means you get 250 base SP no matter what. Now, let's look at FBH's effect: MATK + 10%, Maximum SP - 50%, Increases damage inflicted on Demihuman and Angel monster by 50%. Doing some basic math: 50 + 50 = 100%. -100% = 0, or 1 in RO calculations. That's why you have 1 SP a lot of the time. Now, if you want to suggest a change specifically for FBH for LK, I think you should address some of the points Xtopher and L2Aim have brought up (which I think are valid based on my extensive experience with LKs). I try to keep my opinions to myself when discussing suggestions since people bandwagon alot. It allows the community to decide the changes they deem needed/appropriate with a specifically designated GM overseeing what is going to be changed. I wish I could dedicate myself to this full time but alas, that is not a possibility. I feel as if people don't remember that no one here get's anything from spending our free time working for you. Some consideration for what you do get is appreciated. Once my concerns (what Xtopher and L2Aim suggested) are resolved, I'd be more than willing to implement a change.

Gen, i had noticed the clean up on the suggestion forum just a min ago, and praise is due there, it was a lot of hard work. Kudos to you, Veracity and the others.

(2) i didn't suggest this particular one, Nor any of the recent ones that have been rejected that i biasedly think could have been accepted.

also, it is true that when many people agree with something or disagree, it is democracy. But when people disagree as a bandwagon as you said without any real base, its pointless and that's where you guys have to have the fair judgment.

what would not be fair is if you guys go along with the bandwagon on a suggestion (not saying its happening just stating it)

(3) i always try to remain impartial in my arguments pro or against something, especially since i am fine already enough with most of it and do well on my own terms (especially so with the lk situation at hand, both sp and damage), but in life some arguments must contain bias.

When i do speak up is when i notice other imbalanced factors affecting other classes e.g the clown bow where no1 seems to complain when clowns floor them while every1 seems to complain about Lks who are the underdogs of the Ro world anyways. Snipers and stalkers "Tank" more than lks and have more hp and killing potential, yet why is it the moment Lks seem to have some sort of ability to pvp every1 jumps on them?

based on your experience with lk you must know what i am talking about regardless of bias.

(4) if The fix was implemented weeks if not months ago, then why does my lk have 370 sp with lk halb on and 332 with it off?

thats not an addition of 250 base SP (the description itself only says +100 sp at any rate)

(5) lastly, my involvement in this thread was purely to push either the sp boost or the spiral damage to 150% boost (as of this post the spiral has been rejected)

all that said :

'I wish I could dedicate myself to this full time but alas, that is not a possibility', thanks for responding to this anyways it does show that you are reading it, i retract my previous statement halfway and in no way form or fashion did i attack your devotion or involvement to this server. But i did mention that Gms read but don't add in often.

perusing the suggestion threads i see Gm ryuk most, Rune somewhat and Veracity to close or warn in threads. you do make cameos and that's good, even if you didn't im sure thats why you hired forum moderators. but what i commented on/ asked for was that Gms have a more ACTIVE participation in the forum threads so individuals do not feel as if they are speaking to thin air and get more of an idea where their suggestion is heading to before the Ultimate and brash accept or reject, so that IF and WHERE there are fallacies they can be discussed by both players and Gms alike as they show up (which is what im sure the suggestion thread was meant to operate like anyways).

i am not speaking about anyone in particular and i am aware that people are busy, my only concern is i barely see contributions from Gms

"I feel as if people don't remember that no one here get's anything from spending our free time working for you" that is not true, for the most we are very grateful and while we do realize that you are doing this of your own agenda, you too must also remember that the suggestion forums among other things are the speaking voice of the general community, and be that as it may, as individuals it is our rights to wonder, speculate and comment on the affairs which concern us ALL as participants in this game.

you love Ro, we all love Ro hence why we are still here, every1 contributes at some time and also offer something. from the newest player that votes, they have a value to this server and its commmunity.

at the risk of sounding rude, free time or not with respect to the current topic, and upon balancing of donations itself players pay real money to both propagate this server that we love and also to get benefits out of the items that we receive. all that is asked for is a certain degree of transparency.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Masahiro

[Masahiro]

Sorry Veracity in advance for the double posting BUT

addressing Chris' and Lrn2aim's contributions

yes it is wise for LKs to make hybrid builds to get more sp to pvp with etc, i most definitely do.

but what should be noted is! : other classes such as the clown can go full damage without sacrificing anything what so ever damage wise (my clown holds 150 yggs and i have max dex always, while my LK holds 200 yggs and i also have max strength, however i run out of yggs quicker on my LK and not for lack of skill or pre-meditation)

similarly Stalkers have higher hp than Lks easily, and with the same build (max strength) have the use of the Paladin's shield chain which does 8k a Roll (still higher than an lk's spiral) and it does the SAME effect as spiral pierce what is more so is that it is NOT always an incant effect and it is also greatly boosted by the new item friggs shield. (whats more is that these are both ranged and as such can be countered).

I have ZERO problem with this. what i do is when people complain about LKs.

i have neither problem nor issue with either the low Sp or the current damage of LKs

what i do have a problem with is blind statements concerning that LKs should not complain about their Low sp, it is simply not fair to make such a statement that LKs are not a deserving class of such a boost.

as an aside: if anyone wants to complain about stun lock or "infinte spamming high dps" via skills, i implore you to check out Acid Demonstration and Magic skills such as Cold bolt etc..while they do not "stunlock for 3 seconds" they do stunlock you by sheer dps..and last time i checked spiral pierce did not break your armor.

let it be known every argument has a counter argument..

[sORRY FOR THE LONG POSTS]

Edited January 6, 2011 by Masahiro

[Xtopher]

similarly Stalkers have higher hp than Lks easily, and with the same build (max strength) have the use of the Paladin's shield chain which does 8k a Roll (still higher than an lk's spiral) and it does the SAME effect as spiral pierce what is more so is that it is NOT always an incant effect and it is also greatly boosted by the new item friggs shield. (whats more is that these are both ranged and as such can be countered).

I have ZERO problem with this. what i do is when people complain about LKs.

i have neither problem nor issue with either the low Sp or the current damage of LKs

what i do have a problem with is blind statements concerning that LKs should not complain about their Low sp, it is simply not fair to make such a statement that LKs are not a deserving class of such a boost.

as an aside: if anyone wants to complain about stun lock or "infinte spamming high dps" via skills, i implore you to check out Acid Demonstration and Magic skills such as Cold bolt etc..while they do not "stunlock for 3 seconds" they do stunlock you by sheer dps..and last time i checked spiral pierce did not break your armor.

let it be known every argument has a counter argument..

[sORRY FOR THE LONG POSTS]

There are no effective str based stalker builds anymore. Shield Chain is always neutral which is easily reduced, Spiral Pierce can be enchanted with elements. Stalkers with Shield Chain can't effectively get around pnuema, LKs can charge attack, bowling bash, spear stab. Stalkers have awesome reductions, no argument there... however their damage output is much less than a LK.

Acid demonstration does low damage if you fcp/gr/usak. It's also blockable through pnuema and creators only knock back skill requires them to get close (and probably take damage). A rsx/gr will probably save you from any acid spam. Creators need the stunlock... I mean, they really have no other damage options except for bolt skills (unlike LKs who can bash).

Magic skills are easily blocked with gtb. Mages need the stun lock to have any chance at getting their kills before the enemy gtbs.

My point in posting this is that you can't really compare these classes to LKs because LKs have more advantages/options at hand when stunlock doesn't work. LKs can go to bashing when stunlock is blocked through pnuema. Creators/Mages/Shield Chin stalkers are all easily blockable and have very few effective options once they have been blocked.

[Masahiro]

There are no effective str based stalker builds anymore. Shield Chain is always neutral which is easily reduced, Spiral Pierce can be enchanted with elements. Stalkers with Shield Chain can't effectively get around pnuema, LKs can charge attack, bowling bash, spear stab. Stalkers have awesome reductions, no argument there... however their damage output is much less than a LK.

Acid demonstration does low damage if you fcp/gr/usak. It's also blockable through pnuema and creators only knock back skill requires them to get close (and probably take damage). A rsx/gr will probably save you from any acid spam. Creators need the stunlock... I mean, they really have no other damage options except for bolt skills (unlike LKs who can bash).

Magic skills are easily blocked with gtb. Mages need the stun lock to have any chance at getting their kills before the enemy gtbs.

My point in posting this is that you can't really compare these classes to LKs because LKs have more advantages/options at hand when stunlock doesn't work. LKs can go to bashing when stunlock is blocked through pnuema. Creators/Mages/Shield Chin stalkers are all easily blockable and have very few effective options once they have been blocked.

Lol, try the shield chain (1),

(2) there is a recently accepted suggestion on elementing the effect of shield chain i believe which is also what i had in mind when i was talking about it above (ill check it sec) even with Gr it does hurt on stalkers etc.

in no way form or fashion is a good stalker weaker than an lk, be honest here..just the diversity alone with copycat makes them awsm, And unfcpd they always have strip to rely on..

idk if u know this (u probably do) but gravity intended stalkers to be the BEST pvp class, it was MADE for pvp.

stalkers have intimidate and close confine

where if you run an Lk is going to catch you with charge, a stalker is going to root you with close confine and catch you with backslide, and take you out of pneuma with intimidate. and lets face it..even if they couldn't you've found their one limitation.

also lets not forget no matter what, Stalkers have a 1h bow and wear a shield, they rape from far now..nice

As for Bios even if acid demonstration does low damage, it breaks armor, if u fcp it still does good enough damage idk never below 4k unless sum1 went full demi resist ALSO, acid demonstration is infinite like an lk's spiral, aside from that bios aD relies on int, so they by nature always have supplements like cold bolt as their back up.. u cannot wear Gtb surivive cold bolt and/ or acid simply. without resists yourself.

spiral pierce is also blockble by Pnuema, and if u wear Rsx they can't get pushed back, add a sinx card to that or even mild flee and an lk's bowling bash cannot hit you.

to get you they need a sight clip sacrificing a str belt..spiral works on +str and so this affects it greatly.

bearing in mind spiral is ranged. anti range gear noxious etc can be employed..and lets not forget friggs shield already lowers its damage currently.

spiral is range but it has a CELL range as well, and its not nearly as far as a sniper.

(even if you say alchems have no other option than this, id like to remind you that the Ro theme the 2-2 class is the more support themed one, and not the pure damage. e.g Paladins to LKs, Stalkers to Sinxs, Profs to Wizards. however by that regard they are the better halves for pvp strategically.)

you laugh at me wearing a sinx card on all my characters, even lk, but how many lks do that?..whats to stop a champ from flying by using TSs and snapping on a regular lk?

and a prof to use blinding mist and stave crasher/ Cb combinations.

and a stalker to strip or Sc, sac, Ad, DS, LSI whtever else can come to his mind (with backslide mind you)

id like you to know that before charge attack came along, Lks were dirt easy to keep away. (there is also spear dynamo but w/e, pneuma again t save the day) even so charge attack did not always push people back but considering that it does now, yes..charge attack (and also bb if it did not exist) can get you out of pneuma.

if u wore rsx anyways an Lk's bb would have been waiting.

LKs of the past would have used combinations such as spear stab spear dynamo and vital to get others angry enough to want to rsx, strong shield them and get to them (e.g sinxs) and as such they would have BB'd...nothing has changed, just spiral got a bit stronger. about 2ce as strong..so what? it still doesnt kill on its own, nor is it THE strongest around.

and as for profs since we are talking about an UPDATED lk weapon lets look at their UPDATED prof staff, Magic crasher..beside their offense look at their defense with magic coat among others..don't deny good profs own any day (more so than an Lk). if u disagree Edu will be offended. :P

yes magic skills are blockable by GTB. while not for good reason, if there were no GTB, wouldnt you expect profs to Destroy everyone else?..obliterate them?

to properly defend against magic you need magic defense, that is int..

who has int as their primary stat?...Mage class, and Creator. (maybe a few others).

apart from that. in proper duels with mages they agree beforehand no gtb, and even then..theres a card called d.war.

u were talking abt compromise right? there u have it..Mage comrpomise = d.war (nothing stat-wise just an additional weapon)

because LKs have more advantages/options at hand when stunlock doesn't work

for argument's sake, w/o stunlock (which no1 cares about anyways and is just an added annoyance, and if you have ever been out of range of an lk while getting stunlocked u let me know..that you could never hit him as he was hitting you, because you were so far away)

lets review lk's other skills:

spear dynamo = aka throw spear..the other ranged attack of an Lk..while it is spammable, it is what a clown/gypsy's throw arrow is..the back up, while ppl do die to this..it is mostly just an annoyance to others.

the primary attack, bowling bash. Yes, it is THE primary attack and not spiral pierce like most are forgetting.

HOWEVER. bowling bash knocks the opponent back, and for those who think they can corner an opponent into a wall, bowling bash knocks the opponent in the direction, the player just walked from.. hence all an oponent needs to do, should he find himself cornered is to walk either to the left or right and get out and run.

charge attck can keep the lk coming but, another feature of bowling bash is it is not completely spammable.. u show me an lk bbing at 195 aspd, for the most they can get in two or three and thats with 3-4 kiels.

Lks are easily overcommed..that same spiral you guys are saying is OP, is its biggest weakness..slap on a puppetring, watch an LK stone himself faster than he can spiral you twice. should he put on an f.soldier he either has to (1) sacrifice a kiel and hence lowerd spam,..By a BIG margin or (2) sacrifice a maya, in which regard. you can now go happy sinxing if you had it.

furthermore an Lk cannot uncloak another player easily without sight, and cannot uncloak a stalker in chasewalk..a clown can use unchained serenade, another stalker sightless mind, a prof heaven's drive, a gunslinger desperado, a ninja crimson fire formation, etc etc.

you can coma an Lk..the best hp an lk is going to get and still be effective in pvp is 350something K hp on GR tao and 2x ray.. stalkers, snipers and clowns surpass that.

Yes..Lk is OP..LK is OP Average joe

but i think the most important factor is..on low rates, an LK with a hunting spear or pole axe, ratio to ratio does the same as hes finally doing now on the high rates.

the only thing with this sp suggestion that i see mike has a point in is..: every1 has yggdrasil berries and why should LKs have to run them out 2ce as fast as others, especially when you can tank LKs..I personally am FINE with the current lks and still do well. but i am admitting i see where the others are coming from, and am speaking on behalf of them.

in no way form or fashion did i say Lks could not kill before this spiral pierce boost, they did just fine, even now they use BB as their finisher, regardless

the old wep with 200% and auto coma was OP, but the new 1 is fine, 150% would have been nice but id agree if you say with that it overshadows BB so fine. but 1 thing lk is NOT, is op. if it were im sure we'd be seeing a lot less S> LKHs and more B> LKHs on the bcer

Edited January 7, 2011 by Masahiro