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I basically always consider balance 1v1 above all. Team pvp is secondary when balancing classes to each other. If you start balancing in team situations you'd have to start balancing around provoke, gospel and mind breaker as well which is nearly impossible to do. When I look at balance I mostly look at all options a class has compared to all options other classes have and how one can counter the other. Therefore I don't really look at what most people would consider OP, I more look at if it actually is OP on the full-geared vs full geared spectrum of pvp which basically is what 'end-game' comes down to on a PvP server. Looking at that spectrum I'd have to conclude that infinite AD wouldn't/shouldn't cause any additional trouble in fights opposing the chemist compared to what they are like now. The only change would be that creators become a tad more survivable and don't have to constantly worry about their bottle supplies. I as a quite highly invested str chemist feel that I can't carry nearly as much as I should be able to compared to other classes due to all the classes receiving the weight benefits.

I've always been 2 sided with this suggestion and am not sure what side to choose :p. I'll explain my reasoning which will partly repeat RayRay but will also explain why some things said here are wrong in my opinion. Firstly the reasons why I urge to say yes to this suggestion: 1: First and foremost creators are a merchant class. One of the biggest benefits the merchant class has over other classes (on regular servers) is that they can carry a lot more items and have a higher weight limit. This additional weight carriage comes from 2 things. 1. The Enlarge weight limit skill. and 2. Your Cart. Now that almost every class that has a low weight capacity has been given the enlarge weight limit skill this advantage is somewhat gone. Since things like WoE have storage enabled the use of a cart is nullified as well. It is for this reason that I would agree on making the bottles unlimited because creators are no longer at an advantage with their carry potential but actually at a disadvantage because the bottles are heavy and you need many. A good creator will also have to carry seeds, converters, blue potions for your homun, pet food for the homun and a few plant bottles as well. Not to mention that if you want to fully utilize a creators potential you need to carry both int and str accesories which obviously weight a lot. 2: Another reason why I agree is that AD might be able to stun lock, but AD is also the easiest skill to reduce in damage and basically nullify it out of all skills in the game. You don't need devilings that leave you very vurnerable to the mamonite. There's other options as well. Also because AD hits so many times the selfcast pneuma would happen within a few casts at any time as well. That'd be an easy way to block the "constant AD spam" mentioned earlier in the topic. Reasons why I disagree with the suggestion: 1: Making AD bottles unlimited will bring some crowd control to creators (aka stunlocking a target) without much consequences. Just like LKs currently can but without the drawback of having to be too close to the target. A lot of people will complain about the endless spam but I think if you know what you're doing you can deal with it pretty easily. Making the bottles unlimited will allow hybrid or str chemists to carry as much seeds as WS can. It's only a question whether that is needed or not. In my personal opinion I think them being able to carry that many seeds is nothing but their purpose but some might disagree.

Before warping was disabled nobody had any problems with tarot card. Now it's suddenly a major problem. Or well more like people hate fighting against it and thus it is a problem. Also your damage calculations as explained before are completely off. 12k is also not the damage people reach I normally get hit for about 8k while on gtb and the 3x av is slow. it takes multiple seconds for the damage to apply and you have plenty of time to ygg in between, compared to something like sonic blow in which you have to ygg in a split second. We've build our items around the tarot spam as well. Changes such as most gears being unbreakable are already done to stop tarot from being OP. As stated in the other topic the only nerf I could agree with is to reduce the duration from the debuffs. But not to give tarot a delay (and thus make it impossible to use a skill after coma card etc) or block more effects with gtb, Those two things would break the class. I'd recommend changing the debuffs from tarot from 30 seconds to 10-15 seconds and then be done with it. It's a severe nerf but still leaves the skill in it's purpose. That'd make the skill utterly useless rofl.

The BN spam will be changed to be on par with legit spam, not the other way around.

You've been proven wrong twice, there's indeed no need to argue. All you do is personally attack and have nothing to back up your arguments. I'm not going to personallly attack you like you did above, I see no reason to. You've been personally attacking me in nearly every post you made, not the other way around. Examples: You should take Forum as an example. he argues, yes but he brings in arguments as to why he thinks it should change. I do the same but I give my opinion on it and reason why I think it shouldn't. Comparing that to your posts it's just blatently "You don't know shit, I know it all. This should not work in woe period." and that's coming from a relatively new player, doesn't make any sense honestly. Please do PM me and tell how disabling tarot in WoE will positively effect the server. O.o i'm very curious to see what amazing benefits this would give us. You did exactly what you said you didn't do: you said "It should be this way cause other servers do it" that's basically what your argument came down to. Well... ForsakenRO is not like other servers. So what works there doesn't automatically work here. Sounds promising. Has this kind of delay matching been done before to other skills? If so, which ? :O Is this what was done to spiral pierce before?

Even if you're talking about a high rate enviroment you still can't say that "it's a fact that it should be disabled" no it's your opinion that it should be disabled, not a fact. I'm not "Bias" in any way. In fact the last time I played my gypsy was months ago. I just don't want a perfectly fine class to be nerfed to the ground because people 1: Don't know how to fight them. And 2: find them annoying. Either way AGAIN as stated in the first post. This topic is about skills that are getting abused by third party programs, tarot is not one of the commonly abused skills so there's no need to discuss it here. Discuss it in the other topic instead. You really should do some research before you post bullshit. I've made numerous suggestion topics on this forum, I've supported lots of suggestions as well. Just because I do not agree with a certain change doesn't mean I'm against change. I've been here long. That means I know exactly what the balance is like at this current moment. Compared to someone that's relatively new and is basing his points on how other random high rates servers do it, with other customs and other effects. No offense but I'd prefer to listen to people that know what the balance is like on this server. Not what the balance is like on others. Now please if you're only going to make stupid comments like the one above then indeed refrain from posting. Well we got that going for us then.

You can not believe something is a fact when something is not a fact. If you find that it should be disabled then say that you think it would be better off disabled. Don't say that it was never supposed to be enabled as that is just completely false information. Dancers hardly have anything going for them in WoE other than slow grace and tarot. Specially since their ranged damage is heavily nerfed. I know every song, every skill, every tactic regarding it and every stat influencing each skill individually. I've played RO from the moment there were only first job classes so you're not the only one with years of experience within the game. But unlike you, I also have years of experience on this server alone and I know how things work around here. The only reason why star gladiators are not played right now is due to their limitation on classes and the current hard delay of running/fsk. Something that you apparently didn't know about, however their breaking builds are still viable. Priests useless? they are one of the most key classes in guarding a castle that tells me enough about your knowledge regarding classes on this server. Ninja is globally known as a class with an disadvantage in WoE due to the pushback rules but they're not useless. Well this is where our opinions differ. If you see what I can do in 5 seconds on for example a champion then having 1 effective tarot every 5 seconds is not gonna do much. If it truly needs a nerf it will have to go combined with a buff to AV and it shouldn't be a hard delay, cause a hard delay would make clowns/gypsies unable to AV or any other skill after tarot as well rendering coma completely useless unless you double card. I'd rather have the debuff duration lowered instead of having more delay on the skill. Say lower the most severe debuffs to a 10-15 second duration instead of 30 and the skill should be fine. Having the player wear gtb doesn't make the av spam any better and it's known by now that the AV spam is slow AND has big cooldowns in between. Their damage on me while wearing gtb is +/- 8-9k. on frigs gtb. 10-11k is with buffs and ship captain hat maybe which makes them vurnerable. (low hp and statusses can be applied). Also you have about 3+ seconds to seed during their "burst" in comparison to sinx where you need to seed within 1 second to be able to heal against the damage on usakoring. I never commented on whether it'd be better of disabled or not. I simply stated he can NOT claim it's a fact that it is supposed to be disabled when the default WoE rules do not disable the skill. If you want to know whether I want it disabled in WoE. Well I can only laugh at that as the answer is obvious. Lets not make WoE into an pally/sinx only thing again shall we ? I don't really get what that has to do with anything, the fact of the matter is still that I spam a lot faster than you do, so setting a "default" on spam rate is going to be hard. Just saying the DS spam you did won't kill anybody, ever. It looks like 400-500 ping spam instead of 50 ping o.o; None said guilty until proven innocent. Simply as soon as you have spam that's too fast to be legit then you're GUILTY of using spam aiding programs/gear. The ONLY way to find out whether it's truly gear or third party programs is by the banned player's proof of owning the gear. Simple as that. They are guilty when the GMs find them guilty. It's always been that way. The only way to get back into the game for people that are currently banned for using third party programs is by supplying proof of owning the gaming gear. As soon as a GM thinks someone is guilty they make a short video then that's the proof of guiltyness right there. If later on is decided that the proof is not enough or if the player is able to supply proof of the gaming gear then it can be reverted. That way you actively and quickly clean out the cheaters and only the ones that have the actual gaming gear will be able to get back in. Maybe this is a small hassle for the ones with gaming gear but it's definitely a LOT better than destroying a lot of classes simply because people abuse third party programs on them. (no offense). Again I think that destroying classes for legit players is NOT a solution to people cheating on those classes simply because it hits the legit players as well and not just the cheaters. If you put it this way: What you're wanting to do right now is making an entire class stay for detention because 1 or 2 of the people in the class were unable to stay quiet. That's not how it works. You can't punish the majority for the faults of the minority. You punish the minority not everyone else as well. As explained above, by adding delays you are adapting the game to the cheaters, instead of simply getting rid of the cheaters you punish the players that legitly play the game.

Changed/added some to the above and added the one you missed. Combining everything you have about 8 things that in most cases are useless on our server out of the 16 possible things to happen. So you have a 40% succesrate with a 50% usefulnes. So that's about 20% of all the spam is actually doing something. I find that decent enough and don't see a reason to make it any worse. Well if you want to call AV a burst skill then it's a very slow and weak one at it. Because the damage is not applied in one big burst but in 3 following hits that also aren't applied very fast and the damage is rather low as well. This topic was made to make a list on skills that are frequently abused by third party programs so if the majority of the people would agree that those specific skills could get a hard delay. (Please read Genesis' post in the other suggestion regarding this). I'm not saying it's this way so it should stay this way. If you read the post the guy's post it says that tarot should not have been enabled in woe in the first place. Which is false, because by DEFAULT it is enabled. That's what I'm trying to explain and did explain about 3 times now. It might sound weird but some people are just faster than others as well. I don't know why but my DS spam is quite a bit faster than yours even though I have slightly higher ping than you do. I highly doubt it has anything to do with hardware really as input wise RO could work just as fast on a pentium 4 as it does on the current i7 :P Don't get me wrong I'm fully up for striking down cheaters. But only the cheaters and not strike down the legit players as well while we're at it. Cause that's what the hard delays would do. Something I would recommend is letting the GMs (or certain GMs) ban based on a suspicion (of course with some proof like a video). Then after the ban a player can file a ticket if he thinks the ban is unfair and the gms can discuss the case + if needed request proof of gaming gear. If the gms agree with each other on the spam being too fast to be manual and the player can't proof ownership of gaming gear then the ban stays. If the gms disagree with each other on the ban the admins (Genesis/Vera) will have the decision on whether to keep the ban or not. If the player is able to supply proof of ownership of the gamer gear then the account will be unbanned. This is also an active method which does not punish the legit players. I of course understand that GMs can't always be online but that's when random checks during random woe's or random checks at for fild come in. That way cheaters will also think twice before using it in any major events etc. What I'm saying is I think it should be made easier for GMs to ban suspected cheaters and unban them later if proven wrong instead of not banning them or discussing the case for a long time first before anything is done.

Feel free to "Counter argue" it. It's a 40% chance so it fails more than it actually succeeds. It's all statistics and nothing influences the success rate. Also there's a ton of cards that have effects that don't do anything on a high rate environment like ours. So about 1 out of 2-3 cards is useless as well. So feel free to counter argue but those are the facts. Burst damage is one big amount of damage that's applied quickly and hard to ygg through. Arrow vulcan at this current time is not 'burst damage' it can only do 3-4 in a row. All counted and stacked seperately, extremely easy to ygg through. If it's really supposed to be burst (and it is) either the damage has to get highered a lot or the spamrate has to be improved. Right now you can not consider it burst because it's slow and low to medium damage. Like basically all your posts?.. I think I elaborated why putting another delay on a skill that already has a succeeding chance or actually why nerfing tarot without buffing AV in general is silly. Either way there's a specific topic regarding tarot card so I suggest we keep that discussion to that topic. Tarot card is not one of the skills highly abused with third party programs so it's better to keep that skill's discussion in the other topic. If you would not have been lazy and would've read the posts you would've had your answer already. To repeat it for you. The person in question said that tarot card was supposed to be disabled in WoE. He stated it as a fact, thus the official WoE restrictions were brought up which show nothing about this skill being disabled.(unlike a few other skills). I rather have a passive approach in which legit players are still able to use the classes that they like instead of having legit players be hit by hard delays due to people not able to play fair. Yes making sure cheaters get punished is important but it's not as important as keeping class balance as good as it is. You can not start nerfing classes to the ground just because people use third party programs to make them stronger than they normally are. The only good approach to the cheaters is by catching them and getting rid of them. Our opinions might differ here but I prefer playing against cheaters on my own none broken class than having my class get broken because some people can't behave. Again, adding server-sided delays does not only effect cheaters. Let this be clear it'll be direct nerfs to the CLASS and EVERYONE will feel them, including legit players. @ the videos: The snipers spam is pretty fast, even though the video doesn't show it as much I know that this sniper spams faster than normal (So either macro keyboard/mouse or bn) However your own recording has really slow spam. I have quite a bit higher ping than you but I spam a lot faster than you did in your video.

I'm really not comfortable with hard delays being added. Not only would it be for the wrong reasons (not for balance but to prevent cheating ><) it would also ruin skills or classes for the legit players. Yes delays such as the one on spiral pierce wouldn't effect legit players much, but I'm afraid it won't stop third party program users from using it at rediculous speeds either. However delays such as the ones done on SBK (before the ring was added) completely break the skill and made it literally useless until the ring reduced the cooldown again. The same happened now with the fsk/running skill, due to the hard delay you can right now not use it legitly anymore and it has broken the class that already was one of the weakest ones out there. (Unless a bug is abused). It really depends on how large the delays would be but if they're tiny it wouldn't make a difference. And once you make them larger you'll hit the legit players too. Also just saying you have gaming gear doesn't make you immune for bans. Keep that in mind.

That is what you call a hybrid build. Which is what I mentioned. Honestly anyone that thinks a priest is a viable option for solo pvp right now has not tried playing priest on here. Priests are the easiest class to completely shut down out of all classes out there at this moment in time. The only reason why you're complaining is because you can't get rid of the 'stuck' effect tarot gives because you cant warp away anymore. All other effects were there from the very start and were not complained about. Now that you can't warp anymore and the effect works as intended tarot suddenly is a massive problem? I simply see no reason whatsoever to nerf tarot. Specially not if AV doesn't get it's spamrate boosted, since right now (talking out of personal experience) nobody that pays attention will die by AV , even on gtb. And that's the one and only reason why clowns/gypsies use tarot so much. None of the skills we use here were designed for fro's delay. Everything can be spammed faster than normally. Hell on low rates the tarot card's damage were even able to 1 hit the squisher classes with the damage cards. Those effects are all useless on here and other tarit card effects have more effects on here. You might find it a fix to something 'broken' I find it a nerf to something that's completely fine. And if it goes through without a boost to the AV spam or damage it'll break the class. Not everyone that plays this server agrees with your changes. So them playing the server wouldn't ensure them agreeing with you.

I didn't bring up the official servers to compare FRO to it. You claimed that tarot card is not supposed to work in woe. You stated it as a fact. What I did was proof that that 'fact' was wrong as it's not disabled in any way shape or form on the original server so you can't state that the skill is supposed to be disabled in woe. If you want to argue rather it should be disabled (in your opinion, not as a fact) then you should make a suggestion topic as it has nothing to do with this one. It would make the class pretty much completely useless for woe (other than slowgrace/apple of idun) if it'd be disabled for woe. I don't care how stupid your other 'very well balanced mid and high rate servers' are. Breaking a class in woe does not make it balanced.

I actually disagree with this suggestion. I think it's wrong to nerf classes just because people use third party programs on them. You can not balance classes based on cheaters. Putting hard delays on DS/FAS/CT will break the sniper and definitely will break the WS class as you'll be nerfing their only decent offensive abilities. Also tarot card of fate already has a succes rate so it already fails very often. The only reason people use it so much is because the delay on AV screwed AV over. Any good pvper will not die by AV as it's not spammable, the burst is slow and the damage is only average (even on gtb). Buff the AV spam rate and you won't see constant tarot spam as much. Yes sinx can burst someone down in one spam too, but that's vs usakoring. Clowns can't even do it vs gtb users as long as the gtb user pays attention. + Sonic blow burst dmg is a applied a lot faster than AV it's very easy to ygg during av spam.There's absolutely no reason to put a hard delay on tarot unless you make the success chance 100%. That's like putting a hard delay on full strip but keeping a low succes percentage on actually stripping. Makes no sense whatsoever. Bowling bash is one of the most abused skills by third party programs, so I have no idea why that one would not be mentioned as one of the skills simply because it has pushback. WoE is the spot where these programs get abused the most so skills that are abused in WoE are the ones that 'need the nerf' if any. (I still disagree with the hard delays in general, it'll kill the fast paced pvp that we have). No idea where you got this from but tarot has always been enabled in WoE. On official servers as well.

Thanks for the support. Really hope things will be done for sbk sinx. :)

I'm sorry but I find it very hard to believe you actually play star gladiator on this server. Let me teach you some things. 1: Star gladiator on here can not deal enough damage to kill anyone other than their hatred targets. 2: Removing the hard delay will never allow star gladiator to spam running + flying side kick as fast as something like finger offensive. Also all damage can be reduced, star gladiator's damage as well as champ's damage. 3: What makes you think that thanatos owns everything? Everyone at emp uses at least 1 skoll so your thanatos damage will be rather low. Also baphomet card only works on autoattacks not on skills so you won't really do much at all at the emp. 4: If you get dispelled your damage drops to basically nothing 5: Your HP is extremely low, if you do not continuously move you'll die in seconds. I'd very much like to see your star glad if you believe that they are OP at this moment in time. Cause the fact is that they're basically the weakest class out there atm. Specially with the hard delay which renders them useless unless you abuse a bug. @everyone else: Thanks for the support so far :)