Sniper Suggestions

[CarlyRae]

Hey! It's me again! So, I have a few suggestions about snipers! I know that the community is used to snipers being the way they are now, however, I think there are certain changes that could be done and wouldn't affect the game play as much.

First: ABOUT TRAPS

I suggest that traps be allowed to stack one of top of the other. I mean, what's the worst thing that could happen when traps are allowed to stack? You have Ankle snare and Shockwave trap stacked together or you have a couple of landmines stacked together or a couple of shockwave traps stacked together. How bad could that be? I'm guessing not that bad. There are berries and seeds and you wouldn't need to use much, in fact you'll only need 1 because once a player steps on the traps, they(the traps) are gone for good. This will encourage the use of other traps, like shockwave or landmine, and what not. 

Second, don't you find it annoying that Champs are able to bypass traps? WHY??????? What gives them the immunity? Champs are way too powerful for a sniper to handle - they have pneuma and then you make them immunre to traps? WHY?????? Another is that, in a server where berries and resist sets are rampant, it's not good that a champ is able to bypass traps because there are other implications too like they sneaking in castles and ecalling using only GTB, pneuma and berries. Boom goes the dynamite and you can say good bye to your castle. I suggest that their immunity from traps be removed.

Third, allow traps to be set underneath players. It wouldn't be bad because to be able to set traps underneath players, snipers need to be in close contact with the target which means they are losing their range and if they lose their range, they become vulnerable, easy targets.  Also, snipers are designed to be traps specialists but they have become Focused Arrow Shooting machines instead... Do you realize how many trap skills they have? They have quite a number. But how many of those traps do you see being used? Ankle snare and maybe, very rarely, Shockwave traps.. It's about time we encourage snipers to play with their traps.

 

Second: ABOUT PNEUMA

Ok, so in our server, creators are given land pro and I'm guessing it was because the community wanted to give them a chance in PVP for when their enemies use erende ebecee or pneuma. If that has been done for creators, who in my opinion isn't a ranged class, then how come it wasn't done for snipers - the one and only ranged class whose skills are mostly blocked by pneuma? Well, of course I would not ask for land pro for sniper because I dislike that idea as I have pointed here, and so, I propose the following to help solve this problem.

1. Just like what I suggested in the Land Pro and Creator thread, I suggest that snipers be allowed to use Ganbantein; allow traps to be set underneath players and prevent champs to bypass traps or they will just body reloc away.

2. Another possible suggestion is make snipers bypass pneuma for a certain percentage. Say 3%? 5%? 10%? It's a decision that I leave to the community should this suggestion be chosen.

 

I think that will be all for now. If you have any other ideas, feel free to share them here. I encourage you to say your opinion because they are important so we can determine the best possible solution to all these.

 

Regards!

 

View my other suggestions about Land Pro and Creator here  and about Safetywall and Pneuma here

Edited February 16, 2018 by CarlyRae

[Ableton]

Regarding all your suggestions about traps.

Can the champs originally bypass traps? If yes, then -1 to your suggestion.

Were the traps originally stackable? If no, -1 to your suggestion.

Because what you are suggesting is a modification to the original skill itself which is less likely to happen. Gravity (the developer of ragnarok) intended traps that way.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Ableton

[Fenrir]

1. You should see how a Sniper G user wiped out a whole party(Pally and all) with just the use of Claymore, Arrow Shower, and correct timing. 

2. In PVP, a sniper can just use arrow shower/arrow repel to push back from Pneuma(if opponent is not wearing RSX). In  WOE, FAS snipers wipe out guilds after ecall, imagine if you give them additional defensive ability. And, WoE is a team effort. Ecalling in emp room are only done by good champs, not all can do it.

3. It'd be annoying, say for a Pally, to be followed around by a dedicated or troller Sniper in WOE if that Sniper is able to put traps underneath a player. 1 hour will pass and that pally wont even reach the emp.

[CarlyRae]

12 hours ago, Ableton said:

Regarding all your suggestions about traps.

Can the champs originally bypass traps? If yes, then -1 to your suggestion.

Were the traps originally stackable? If no, -1 to your suggestion.

Because what you are suggesting is a modification to the original skill itself which is less likely to happen. Gravity (the developer of ragnarok) intended traps that way.

Just because Gravity intended it to be that way doesn't mean we should keep it that way, hence, I made the suggestion. Do you think Gravity intended to have a 2-slot armor nor a one-hand bow? I don't think so. 

 

12 hours ago, Fenrir said:

1. You should see how a Sniper G user wiped out a whole party(Pally and all) with just the use of Claymore, Arrow Shower, and correct timing. 

2. In PVP, a sniper can just use arrow shower/arrow repel to push back from Pneuma(if opponent is not wearing RSX). In  WOE, FAS snipers wipe out guilds after ecall, imagine if you give them additional defensive ability. And, WoE is a team effort. Ecalling in emp room are only done by good champs, not all can do it.

3. It'd be annoying, say for a Pally, to be followed around by a dedicated or troller Sniper in WOE if that Sniper is able to put traps underneath a player. 1 hour will pass and that pally wont even reach the emp.

At first glance these arguments appear to be strong, however, if you examine them closely you'll realize that they are rather misleading.

First, more than anything else, we should focus our attention on the fact that in order for a sniper to do that, if indeed he is able to that just for the sake of argument, he should do it at the "correct timing," which I'm guessing is hard to do. How often do you see a sniper do claymore traps on the server? You do not see that often which means it is not as effective as you would like us to believe. Secondly, we cannot simply believe that a GSet Sniper is able to destroy an entire party because there are a lot more to this than simply a sniper destroying an entire party. We should consider their gears, their levels and what not. Misleading argument.

Number 2, Since when did arrow shower and arrow repel work against Pneuma? I tested it before posting this and I'm so sorry to tell you that arrow charge and arrow shower are not modified on this server to bypass pneuma, they don't work against pneuma. Secondly, you mentioning "team effort," actually weakens your argument. If you say a sniper is able to destroy an entire guild after ecall, then maybe they didn't work as a team? Then maybe the priests and the champs weren't doing their jobs? Or maybe they are just simply AFK? You support the idea of a LONE champ being able to sneak in over full defenses? So much for team effort, huh? Misleading arguments. 

Number 3. This is perhaps your strongest argument and I thank you for floating this idea, however, I think that this is rather whimsical. it's not like Paladins go alone, right? He is always with some people that could kill or distract the sniper. Also, If a sniper does that, he is putting the castle at risk of getting broken because he focused on one character instead of preventing the entire guild from reaching the emp.

Edited February 17, 2018 by CarlyRae

[Fenrir]

1. Bro, try these with a correct stats on a G set sniper on a x2:

A. Claymore>arrow shower on the claymore>falcon eyes to cancel sprite delay>claymore>arrow shower>falcon eyes>claymore>arrow shower etc2

B. .....

C. Profit

This is especially useful to set-up on narrow spaces or entrances and when the enemy team forgets to watch-out for traps.

This method used to be popular among Snipers. But maybe due to update on FAS spammability, this type became less popular.

Anyway, imagine if a sniper is able to stack Claymore without the need to arrow shower, he could just do this to a clustered enemy:

Stack Claymore>Arrow Shower to the direction of clusteted enemy>Profit

That'd be OP

 

2. LOL i was wrong on this one sorry xD. Maybe just give the ability of Charge Attack to Snipers just like on GS. But i think there's a debate going on about this within the forum topics. And btw, I'm not misleading you about FAS snipers wiping guilds or most of them after ecall. I believe you're a Sniper. Try doing this, get a Devo, roam around for ecallers post ecall, spam FAS on them, u'll see Godlike status on u if that guild isn't fast enough to spread out. Or maybe you've been to WoE, notice how Snipers takes advantage of their skills.

 

3. Trolls won't care about getting an emp. One could just go Tank build and troll all the way.

 

Anyway, these limitations are put there because without them, snipers will become more OP. Look at these sniper advantages:

1. Super Long range (that's why a good sniper stays away from everyone else and if one gets close enough, use arrow repel)

2. Not afraid of dispel damage-wise (other characters looses HUGE amount of damage after getting dispeled thats why they are forced to use GTB)

3. OP spam (specially with MS) and AOE damage(straight line) 

4. Etc (i could type more but i'd be giving away more info and i'm getting tired lol)

[CarlyRae]

1 hour ago, Fenrir said:

1. Bro, try these with a correct stats on a G set sniper on a x2:

A. Claymore>arrow shower on the claymore>falcon eyes to cancel sprite delay>claymore>arrow shower>falcon eyes>claymore>arrow shower etc2

B. .....

C. Profit

This is especially useful to set-up on narrow spaces or entrances and when the enemy team forgets to watch-out for traps.

This method used to be popular among Snipers. But maybe due to update on FAS spammability, this type became less popular.

Anyway, imagine if a sniper is able to stack Claymore without the need to arrow shower, he could just do this to a clustered enemy:

Stack Claymore>Arrow Shower to the direction of clusteted enemy>Profit

That'd be OP

Wow! When I replied to you the first time, I was thinking that you were referring to a scenario inside WOE castles but then there was no indication of that and so I just assumed that you were actually talking of a scenario outside the castles because it made much more sense and so I replied to you using that scenario. However, now that you replied again, it has become clear that you are indeed talking about a WOE castle scenario, which is funny because you just revealed that you lack the knowledge about snipers. It's evident that you think Arrow shower would behave with traps inside the castles the same way it would outside. But you are wrong. When you arrow shower traps outside the castles, you are able to move them towards any direction, however, if you do that inside castles, the traps won't be moved but instead, "die", unless of course if you have thana in your weapon because traps don't have def and so they don't die when they are hit with a thana bow. 

Your idea of a sniper being able to kill an entire guild inside WOE castles using arrow shower and traps is so far-fetched because arrow shower wouldn't move traps in the first place. Haha! Man, are you sure you know anything about snipers?

It's also funny that you raised the idea of "team work" and yet you keep on floating the idea of a LONE sniper being able to kill your entire guild. I feel sad that a sniper is able to wipe your entire guild off the face of the earth completely. I suggest that you examine what you have been doing wrong to prevent this from further happening. Don't you think that maybe if a sniper is able to wipe your guild completely, then there is something wrong with your guild? 

Traps being stacked inside castles wouldn't be OP either because stacked traps are prepositioned traps,  and prepositioned traps are always triggered by just 1 person alone, which means 1 casualty. You can't set it right beneath the ecaller either because then that would be triggered almost instantaneously and thus preventing the Guild Master from doing the ecall. He will just simply evade you. 

 

1 hour ago, Fenrir said:

2. LOL i was wrong on this one sorry xD. Maybe just give the ability of Charge Attack to Snipers just like on GS. But i think there's a debate going on about this within the forum topics. And btw, I'm not misleading you about FAS snipers wiping guilds or most of them after ecall. I believe you're a Sniper. Try doing this, get a Devo, roam around for ecallers post ecall, spam FAS on them, u'll see Godlike status on u if that guild isn't fast enough to spread out. Or maybe you've been to WoE, notice how Snipers takes advantage of their skills.

 

3. Trolls won't care about getting an emp. One could just go Tank build and troll all the way.

 

Anyway, these limitations are put there because without them, snipers will become more OP. Look at these sniper advantages:

1. Super Long range (that's why a good sniper stays away from everyone else and if one gets close enough, use arrow repel)

2. Not afraid of dispel damage-wise (other characters looses HUGE amount of damage after getting dispeled thats why they are forced to use GTB)

3. OP spam (specially with MS) and AOE damage(straight line) 

4. Etc (i could type more but i'd be giving away more info and i'm getting tired lol)

This is full of ironies. You say give the snipers Charge attack and yet you point out that range is their advantage. If you give them charge attack, then you remove their advantage. Haha. Come on, man. Get serious. 

Yeah, maybe trolls don't care about defending the emp but those who need the devo, or those who need to protect the breaker surely care and so they will do anything to prevent that sniper from trolling. Teamwork, bruh, teamwork.

It doesn't matter whether they lose a LITTLE or a HUGE amount of buffs, the point is they LOSE buffs. To say snipers are not afraid of dispel is to mislead.

 

Edited February 17, 2018 by CarlyRae

[Fenrir]

Anyway, meet me in game so that i'll show you. You don't seem to get my point. I'm usually at field or at city.

'Los Nachos Burrito'

[Ableton]

3 hours ago, CarlyRae said:

Just because Gravity intended it to be that way doesn't mean we should keep it that way, hence, I made the suggestion. Do you think Gravity intended to have a 2-slot armor nor a one-hand bow? I don't think so.

We are talking about skills. It's easy for any server to just create an item. But modifying a specific skill requires source edits, which is rarely done in most servers.

Allowing a class to use a specific skill is easy.

Adding some damage to a specific skill is easy.

BUT modifying the effect of a specific skill would be VERY hard and rarely done in most servers.

I hope you understand that now.

[CarlyRae]

4 minutes ago, Ableton said:

We are talking about skills. It's easy for any server to just create an item. But modifying a specific skill requires source edits, which is rarely done in most servers.

Allowing a class to use a specific skill is easy.

Adding some damage to a specific skill is easy.

BUT modifying the effect of a specific skill would be VERY hard and rarely done in most servers.

I hope you understand that now.

Okay, I now understand the reason behind this suggestion but just because you find something hard to do doesn't mean other people find it hard, too. And I think, the desire of the community to modify a particular skill outweighs the difficulty of doing source edits. I'm not saying however that the community likes this suggestion, what I am saying is that the wants and the needs of the community must always be addressed, else the server risks losing them. 

Regards.

[Specter]

On 2/16/2018 at 7:01 AM, CarlyRae said:

First: ABOUT TRAPS

I suggest that traps be allowed to stack one of top of the other. I mean, what's the worst thing that could happen when traps are allowed to stack? You have Ankle snare and Shockwave trap stacked together or you have a couple of landmines stacked together or a couple of shockwave traps stacked together. How bad could that be? I'm guessing not that bad. There are berries and seeds and you wouldn't need to use much, in fact you'll only need 1 because once a player steps on the traps, they(the traps) are gone for good. This will encourage the use of other traps, like shockwave or landmine, and what not. 

Second, don't you find it annoying that Champs are able to bypass traps? WHY??????? What gives them the immunity? Champs are way too powerful for a sniper to handle - they have pneuma and then you make them immunre to traps? WHY?????? Another is that, in a server where berries and resist sets are rampant, it's not good that a champ is able to bypass traps because there are other implications too like they sneaking in castles and ecalling using only GTB, pneuma and berries. Boom goes the dynamite and you can say good bye to your castle. I suggest that their immunity from traps be removed.

Third, allow traps to be set underneath players. It wouldn't be bad because to be able to set traps underneath players, snipers need to be in close contact with the target which means they are losing their range and if they lose their range, they become vulnerable, easy targets.  Also, snipers are designed to be traps specialists but they have become Focused Arrow Shooting machines instead... Do you realize how many trap skills they have? They have quite a number. But how many of those traps do you see being used? Ankle snare and maybe, very rarely, Shockwave traps.. It's about time we encourage snipers to play with their traps.

 

Second: ABOUT PNEUMA

Ok, so in our server, creators are given land pro and I'm guessing it was because the community wanted to give them a chance in PVP for when their enemies use erende ebecee or pneuma. If that has been done for creators, who in my opinion isn't a ranged class, then how come it wasn't done for snipers - the one and only ranged class whose skills are mostly blocked by pneuma? Well, of course I would not ask for land pro for sniper because I dislike that idea as I have pointed here, and so, I propose the following to help solve this problem.

1. Just like what I suggested in the Land Pro and Creator thread, I suggest that snipers be allowed to use Ganbantein; allow traps to be set underneath players and prevent champs to bypass traps or they will just body reloc away.

2. Another possible suggestion is make snipers bypass pneuma for a certain percentage. Say 3%? 5%? 10%? It's a decision that I leave to the community should this suggestion be chosen.

 

I think that will be all for now. If you have any other ideas, feel free to share them here. I encourage you to say your opinion because they are important so we can determine the best possible solution to all these.

 

Regards!

 

View my other suggestions about Land Pro and Creator here  and about Safetywall and Pneuma here

" I suggest that traps be allowed to stack one of top of the other. " Do you mean you want traps to be stacked in woe? Because outside of woe it's not really that hard to stack traps. And stacking shockwave traps might not be a problem, but stacking claymore/landmines IS quite a problem with the guardian / hrist bow combo. Someone without fire resistance (for claymore) will get from 90k to 130k damage per trap IF they are using usakoring. 150~200k if gtb per trap, and you can stack more than 10 traps in 1 cell (i don't know the exact number). So that's 900k ~ 1.3m damage on usakoring on a fully stacked cell, and claymore does AoE damage too, so you can easily wipe people with this. In a way I like the idea of making trap snipers useful in woe, but right now the trap damage is so high it'll be too OP, just imagine having 3 or more trap snipers spamming traps everywhere, it would force attacking guilds to use fire armor or fire resistance and that pretty much makes you vulnerable to acid bomb/asura/thana/etc.

" I suggest that their immunity from traps be removed. " Uhm, champs are not immune to traps. You can snap over them, or step on them to remove them (ankle snare), but if you step on a claymore it'll blow up and damage you.

" Third, allow traps to be set underneath players " There are things that will be highly dangerous when it comes to the balance of the game. One point is the one @Fenrir mentioned, the ankle snare spam on certain targets. You could easily make a reduct sniper just to ankle snare people all woe long, and honestly, if you think about it, people can do that already, it's just that you have to keep on moving while setting your traps. The other issue is the following, when you get hit there are certain skills that can be spammed faster, it's like when you get hit with 3 kiels you can spam skills with no after cast delay at all. (safety wall,heal,heavens drive, dispel, etc). If claymore trap is one of those skills, and you can spam them underneath someone while he's hitting you, you'll do a TON of damage in no time if you are using the guardian set, which might be too OP.

And about the pneuma thing, charge arrow/arrow shower don't work on pneuma. Your only way to push someone away from pneuma as a sniper is using Skid trap and pushing it against your enemy.

Making snipers bypass a little % of pneuma is most likely a huge pain in the ass to code, and I don't see the reason why.

[CarlyRae]

14 hours ago, Specter said:

Do you mean you want traps to be stacked in woe? Because outside of woe it's not really that hard to stack traps. And stacking shockwave traps might not be a problem, but stacking claymore/landmines IS quite a problem with the guardian / hrist bow combo. Someone without fire resistance (for claymore) will get from 90k to 130k damage per trap IF they are using usakoring. 150~200k if gtb per trap, and you can stack more than 10 traps in 1 cell (i don't know the exact number). So that's 900k ~ 1.3m damage on usakoring on a fully stacked cell, and claymore does AoE damage too, so you can easily wipe people with this. In a way I like the idea of making trap snipers useful in woe, but right now the trap damage is so high it'll be too OP, just imagine having 3 or more trap snipers spamming traps everywhere, it would force attacking guilds to use fire armor or fire resistance and that pretty much makes you vulnerable to acid bomb/asura/thana/etc.

As I have said, stacked traps inside the castles are prepositioned traps which is triggered by one person alone which means 1 casualty, and in effect makes the issue of AOE irrelevant. Say, a trapper decides to put 10 or 12 (I also do not know how many you can set up at a time) traps stacked one on top of the other right at the spawn point and a character from an opposing guild enters the portal and moves, the traps are triggered, 1 character is vanished. And when the sniper decides to put 4 sets of traps with 3 claymore traps each, which has much lesser damage compared to 10 claymore traps stacked altogether, the player who triggered the trap has the chance to still use some berry before triggering the other sets of stacked claymore traps.  

If a guild dedicates their trappers to be Claymore trappers, then they lose 3 three ankle snare trappers, which makes their castle vulnerable to breaking.
 

14 hours ago, Specter said:

" I suggest that their immunity from traps be removed. " Uhm, champs are not immune to traps. You can snap over them, or step on them to remove them (ankle snare), but if you step on a claymore it'll blow up and damage you.

But they can bypass it, that's my point. Remove their ability to bypass traps because of body reloc.

 

14 hours ago, Specter said:

" Third, allow traps to be set underneath players " There are things that will be highly dangerous when it comes to the balance of the game. One point is the one @Fenrir mentioned, the ankle snare spam on certain targets. You could easily make a reduct sniper just to ankle snare people all woe long, and honestly, if you think about it, people can do that already, it's just that you have to keep on moving while setting your traps. The other issue is the following, when you get hit there are certain skills that can be spammed faster, it's like when you get hit with 3 kiels you can spam skills with no after cast delay at all. (safety wall,heal,heavens drive, dispel, etc). If claymore trap is one of those skills, and you can spam them underneath someone while he's hitting you, you'll do a TON of damage in no time if you are using the guardian set, which might be too OP.
 

I have rebutted Fenrir's argument, I'll let the staff to decide about it. 

 

And....... No, people aren't able to do that at the moment. Because being able to set traps directly underneath players has 100% certainty of trapping the character while what you mentioned has less than that amount of certainty. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by CarlyRae

[Fenrir]

Rebuttal doesn't nullify the previous post's points. What @Specter did was he just emphasized it even more in the hopes that you will see how things may work.

However, this kind of topic needs more practical discussion in-game. Theoretical knowledge, though helpful, can be very different when you apply it in the game itself. Especially in this server with many customized items. What may be effective to others doesn't make it effective here. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be applied. That's why there's a suggestion forum for this.

However, when people, especially veterans(i'm not saying i am one) who've already stayed in this server for years and have lots of experience here, points things out for you which they think aren't apllicable to the current standing of this server, you don't get angry to them and place yourself as more highly intelligent than them. They replied cause they heard your plea.

Anyway, as I said, this suggestion requires discussion and practice in-game that's why I invited you to approach me there.

[CarlyRae]

7 hours ago, Fenrir said:

However, when people, especially veterans(i'm not saying i am one) who've already stayed in this server for years and have lots of experience here, points things out for you which they think aren't apllicable to the current standing of this server, you don't get angry to them. They replied cause they heard your plea.

Mea culpa. 

[jloh]

Trap stacking would be pretty imbalanced hahaha. Stack enough traps and you'll 1 hit ko anyone, even paladins. You'll just have an army of trappers in WoE.

That said, I think the pneuma idea is good. +1 to that.

Snipers don't really have a way to counter pneuma currently. Ganbantein would definitely be something that isn't game breaking - casting it takes longer than pneuma takes to cast - but yet helps massively in this aspect.

[Kramer]

Just do something against the Pneuma skill... and please... some GM could give us a answer?