Only Nd Ring Can Be Use By Super Novice

[Rayray]

Alright this topic has some pretty good points and I'll share my opinion on this.

I think anyone with a clear mind sees that something has to be done about supernovices, especially superbabies. Now I've read the arguments that went back and forth between Ray and Kayla and I can actually agree with both of them.

It is true that SN were strong but not considered as 'OP' before they started using the rings. In my honest opinion the rings are the thing that cause supernovices to go over the top. However, that doesn't mean that removing the rings from supernovices is the best way to re-balance it. Removing the rings from them would also require (as far as I know) every ring and cape item to be edited individually to have no effects for supernovices. Is this the best solution? I don't know.

I think that removing imp/siroma cards would be a big first step to reduce their way too high magic damage. But just having high matk is not what makes them OP. It's a combination of many things. In my opinion it's a combination of the following in random order:

1: They have skills to use for every situation, offensive and defensive.

2: They have additional stats

3: They are receiving buffs that are not supposed to be for their class

4: They have the same HP as the tankiest class in the game without the use of vit and with a way higher damage output.

5: Due to their low vit they'll never need skolls. While having the same HP as a full vit pally, they remain untouched by thanatos even without skolls

Now there's multiple ways to fix this issue. Each of the solutions mentioned below will somewhat re-balance the class. These solutions are seperate and are not supposed to be seen as combined solutions:

1: Remove the use of other class-rings by the supernovice class

2: Remove siroma/imp effects for SN

3: Change the tao gunka effect to make SN more like other classes. By this I mean Add more HP by 1 tao gunka card but cancel the effect when 2 tao cards are worn. What will this do? It'll lower the overall HP from a SN leaving them more vurnerable to reflect from their own damage and gangs, and giving them the option to use GR without dropping to 150k hp. This way they can still survive at least 1 asura but they can not brainlessly spam their bolts without having to care about reflect. It also gives other classes aside from champs a bigger chance vs SN because right now the 600k+ HP is rediculous. My goal would be giving them around 240-250k hp with 1 tao/gr on 100 vit in total.

Also just to point 1 thing out: You never ever ever go reflect gear vs a SN in their current state. Any decent SN can NOT die by reflect from his own damage. Their HP pool is simply too big for that.

I really missed you posting in suggestions lol.

I agree to your suggestions. But on the imp/siroma cards, i think removing them completely will make people rage and forget the SN class, which I do not want. How about lowering the imp/siroma to like 10% increase for SN? Because there is simply no card to put on SN besides the auto lex if we remove those 2 cards for their use.

@Kayla you probably missed my point a few posts back. The last two arguments i wrote was to counter what you say on not removing rings. A few posts back, I already said that we have to remove ALL the things that make SN op, and sadly, allowing them to wear rings is one of it. I said that the first step on balancing the class is to remove the class specific ring on their equips. After that, we will know for sure what to do next(which I am guessing would be reducing TGK effect on them).

I backread a few of our debates here, then I realized that we are actually in the same page, except that you want to keep on using the rings.

You kept wanting to let SN use class specific rings, and I can really not agree with that. I would rather let them have their OWN ring, and not use other rings.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Rayray

[Kayla Minerre]

Alright this topic has some pretty good points and I'll share my opinion on this.

I think anyone with a clear mind sees that something has to be done about supernovices, especially superbabies. Now I've read the arguments that went back and forth between Ray and Kayla and I can actually agree with both of them.

It is true that SN were strong but not considered as 'OP' before they started using the rings. In my honest opinion the rings are the thing that cause supernovices to go over the top. However, that doesn't mean that removing the rings from supernovices is the best way to re-balance it. Removing the rings from them would also require (as far as I know) every ring and cape item to be edited individually to have no effects for supernovices. Is this the best solution? I don't know.

I think that removing imp/siroma cards would be a big first step to reduce their way too high magic damage. But just having high matk is not what makes them OP. It's a combination of many things. In my opinion it's a combination of the following in random order:

1: They have skills to use for every situation, offensive and defensive.

2: They have additional stats

3: They are receiving buffs that are not supposed to be for their class

4: They have the same HP as the tankiest class in the game without the use of vit and with a way higher damage output.

5: Due to their low vit they'll never need skolls. While having the same HP as a full vit pally, they remain untouched by thanatos even without skolls

Now there's multiple ways to fix this issue. Each of the solutions mentioned below will somewhat re-balance the class. These solutions are seperate and are not supposed to be seen as combined solutions:

1: Remove the use of other class-rings by the supernovice class

2: Remove siroma/imp effects for SN

3: Change the tao gunka effect to make SN more like other classes. By this I mean Add more HP by 1 tao gunka card but cancel the effect when 2 tao cards are worn. What will this do? It'll lower the overall HP from a SN leaving them more vurnerable to reflect from their own damage and gangs, and giving them the option to use GR without dropping to 150k hp. This way they can still survive at least 1 asura but they can not brainlessly spam their bolts without having to care about reflect. It also gives other classes aside from champs a bigger chance vs SN because right now the 600k+ HP is rediculous. My goal would be giving them around 240-250k hp with 1 tao/gr on 100 vit in total.

Also just to point 1 thing out: You never ever ever go reflect gear vs a SN in their current state. Any decent SN can NOT die by reflect from his own damage. Their HP pool is simply too big for that.

I always go full reflect for babies as long as they're alone.

Anyway, the only reason people considered them OP was because there was a sudden influx of items for them to use, as I explained above. Most people didn't think 'Hey, I can use all of this stuff that professors can't' until somebody did. Before people realized they could use the all of that, nobody played SN other than to be adorable. Sure, you saw them sitting around, but none of them ever pvp'd, because everybody thought they were useless. As I've explained above as well, the rings aren't what makes them OP. A SN can't change rings on the fly like Ray seems to assume, because they have to take the time to link themselves since most people have dispell. They can, however, change headgear, weapons, and belts (although that can be a pain in the ass) at any point, which is something anybody can do. Honestly, I think this setup with them having to get linked to change rings for a specific damage type is a better idea than just giving them a ring of their own, something that they should have gotten with the rest of the classes. This format keeps them from amplifying their their magic/mammo damage on the fly.

I'm going to stick by my belief that the rings aren't unbalancing anything. They gave the rings to other classes to make skills and builds more powerful, those builds that were already pretty powerful, so it only seems logical that all classes should benefit in one way or another. Why not keep them limited in on-the-fly usage instead of allowing them the ability to change whenever?

Now, the HP is definitely an issue, and I like your suggestion as opposed to the 'just lower the HP bonus' idea. It'll give them an HP buffer that'll save them from asura, but not make them LK/Sinx's(flee) in terms of tanking. It'll also ensure that the magic band won't be a tank-capable item anymore, since SC and Freeze will guarantee the SN's death if inflicted by them, whereas they could survive an asura without gr in the first place.

I've already stated my stance on the imp/siroma. It shouldn't have even been able to be compounded on top of the belts (urds or whatever they're called) in the first place, so removing them from SN would be a great idea.

I still feel that something needs to be done about their flee, though. Most people consider it weird that I don't use phree, but when you know how to balance your stats to give you a decent range of damage, hp, and hit (min 510), you generally don't need phree. I rarely miss, so when you come across something that has a 95% chance of dodging an attack with 510 hit, then you know something is off.

Summary: Leave the rings alone. They can only amplify one thing at a time with the way it is now. I agree with the single tao usage and the siroma/imp removal. I still suggest knocking the flee bonus from them.

I really missed you posting in suggestions lol.

I agree to your suggestions. But on the imp/siroma cards, i think removing them completely will make people rage and forget the SN class, which I do not want. How about lowering the imp/siroma to like 10% increase for SN? Because there is simply no card to put on SN besides the auto lex if we remove those 2 cards for their use.

@Kayla you probably missed my point a few posts back. The last two arguments i wrote was to counter what you say on not removing rings. A few posts back, I already said that we have to remove ALL the things that make SN op, and sadly, allowing them to wear rings is one of it. I said that the first step on balancing the class is to remove the class specific ring on their equips. After that, we will know for sure what to do next(which I am guessing would be reducing TGK effect on them).

I backread a few of our debates here, then I realized that we are actually in the same page, except that you want to keep on using the rings.

You kept wanting to let SN use class specific rings, and I can really not agree with that. I would rather let them have their OWN ring, and not use other rings.

Please read what I said above with the rings. That will probably change your mind about having their own rings. As for the ring issue? I'm done with it. My previous post will be the last I say on it.

[Rayray]

I never assumed they can switch around the rings. People, however, could adapt their build to whatever ring they already have. That seems a bit weird to me, you have one ring and two of your classes can use them, while everyone had to get each character their own rings. Again, that is not the issue for me, I just find it weird.

I suggest SN's own ring for one reason: It can be made to really fit SN and not make it go overboard. That's is simply it.

[Dus]

Well It's over nao. They disabled the ring feature for SN. Im guilty of using Super Baby to look adorbs but even before I started using rings I was doing fine without it. I was playing a Hybrid It was cool I can survive and kill people depending on who Im up against

[Veracity]

Moving this since we've already addressed this. :)