Kayla Minerre Posted October 3, 2013 Report Posted October 3, 2013 So, I'm a big fan of Clowns/Gypsy (among other things) and have always been pretty good at it up until recently, hitting up 3 AVs average and occasionally 4-5 if I'm being sprite-locked. Now, my ping is amazing, so don't even bother blaming the upcoming point on that, but I just can't seem to be able to spam more than 2 AVs. I understand that there was a server-side delay implemented to prevent stuff like Breakneck and spriting, but to have it affect just my AV like this is ridiculous. Now, as a comparison, as some of you have noticed with me chillin' in for_fild, I spam like a god. I can get 4 Sonic Blows in without issue, lock you in place eternally with Spiral Pierce, and Arrow Sling like no other (you may have also noticed my sexy sitting/spinning, too). The fact that AV is the only skill that I can't effectively spam (and others have commented on how difficult it is to get anything more than 2 in there as well) is upsetting. This pretty much forces me (and other musicians/teasers) to resort to spamming tarot for the kill, which irks me just as much as warp abuse. tl;dr: Do something to make us a little more versatile than twats that do nothing but tarot and coma again.
Rayray Posted October 4, 2013 Report Posted October 4, 2013 I think we suggested this before, that if we can have AV spam around 4-5 constantly, clowns wouldn't need to resort to spamming tarot to win. I am not sure if this can be done, and I seem to remember someone saying that if you had a ping of 30 below, then your AV spam can be done consistently. But yeah, I agree with you, it was easy to tank 3 AVs.
jameslamela Posted October 4, 2013 Report Posted October 4, 2013 -1... clown is already a powerful job. clown/gypsies with good ping that can AV 4-5x will be OP if the av spam will be enhanced.
Shadi Posted October 4, 2013 Report Posted October 4, 2013 (edited) I believe I brought this issue up both in-game and on the forums already. The lack of arrow vulcan spam causes nearly all clowns to switch to reduction builds and simply and brainlessly spam tarot all day to win a fight. I am not sure if this can be done, and I seem to remember someone saying that if you had a ping of 30 below, then your AV spam can be done consistently. I don't know who told you this, but that person has no idea what he's talking about. Arrow vulcan can be consistent, yes. But the way right now it's possible to consistenly do 2-3 av's. Not more than that. 4 is a very very rare exception when being stunlocked. anyone that does 5 av's is using a third party program/cheating tools/ (which is obviously illegal) or they are animation cancelling (which is also illegal at this moment. (being discussed). Report any clown/gypsy that's doing 5 avs. My own spam is pretty consistent on 3's. But that's not going to kill anyone. Even gtb users can oftenly ygg through a spam of 3 avs. I also know it's not my net causing it because before the changes I was able to do 4-5 very often and even 6 at rare occasions when being completely stunlocked. Now I don't want to revert things back to that spam because with the newer gears and such it'd be too overpowered. my personal preferation is to allow clowns/gypsies to cancel their animation within the game's own mechanics. (Just like champs and other jobs are allowed to cancel theirs, example Zen cancels out the fury sprite, zen cancels out the fo sprite. by using zen they remove the sprite delay from the other skills. (imo they should be allowed to do so, it's a key part of the game's mechanics. Without this being allowed/used champs would be useless) Clowns can do such a thing too, even though it's a lot harder to use it effectively and it needs a lot more keys, but once you get used to it it can pretty much give you (slightly slower) but constant spam. I already demonstrated this to Veracity and she informed me that allowing it or not allowing it will be discussed with Genesis. As for now, however, clowns are not allowed to use the tactic. Bottom line: Arrow vulcan is one of those skills that are insanely hard to balance. Right now it's slightly underpowered but a slightest change can make it overpowered already. I personally think allowing clowns/gypsy to cancel their sprite (within the game mechanics , not by illegal crap of course, these 2 are very easy to differentiate when watching the clown/gypsy) would be the best step to take at this moment. Reasoning for this opinion is the fact that it doesn't require any changes to the server at this time, it's only a change of rules which can easily be reverted when it turns out to be too strong. Other examples of classes cancelling sprites: Sniper using falcon eyes to remove delay from arrow shower Priest side-step walking to reduce delay on the heal skill Flying side kick/mild wind to cancel out tumbling sprite Edited October 4, 2013 by Shadi
L2Aim Posted October 4, 2013 Report Posted October 4, 2013 I don't want to spoil the sprite cancelling. But neither would I like to leave people in the dark for a simple solution that most people are already using for a different thing. To get all the song buffs temporarily working on the Clown/(linked) Gypsy, weapon switching is used to cancel out the animation. I think it would be possible to do the same for AV, however, I have never tried that yet and without Kiels I won't be able to verify this. Anyway, as for the suggestion, I agree that the Clowns & Gypsies should be able to be competitive through their main skills and not having to resort to a luck based skill. The chances of this skill being successful can be reduced with a simple GTB card, another downside.
Rayray Posted October 4, 2013 Report Posted October 4, 2013 ^ There was a guide for it, but Genesis himself said that song cancelling isn't allowed, and the guide and hopes of all clown and gypsy users went down with it. @Shadi yeah I meant the consistent 3-4s, not infinitely spammed like desperado before. Sadly, with higher ping, even 3 avs sometimes escapes the user and hits with one av, and another after the animation(shit happens). @James Clown was never OP, it has mediocre hp, lack of spam on AV thus lower damage compared to others(Spiral pierce has the same damage per hit of most AVs, and yet Spiral Pierce got good spam that can stunlock you to death). Only thing that make clown seem OP is tarot, but then again, anyone with brains and is using blue ifrit rings can do the same. No other class exerts effort in spamming one skill than Clown/Gypy(the 3x AV>cloak> walk >repeat routine OR the 3x AV>attention>walk>repeat). And even then, it was not as good of a spam.
gagosila123 Posted October 4, 2013 Report Posted October 4, 2013 (edited) 4 to 5 AV is much, they either use a hax, BN or something if you live like in Asian countries..... Yeah I know some of players here still insist using it , sadly i dont have fraps to record them...... Edited October 4, 2013 by gagosila123
Kayla Minerre Posted October 4, 2013 Author Report Posted October 4, 2013 I think we suggested this before, that if we can have AV spam around 4-5 constantly, clowns wouldn't need to resort to spamming tarot to win. I am not sure if this can be done, and I seem to remember someone saying that if you had a ping of 30 below, then your AV spam can be done consistently. But yeah, I agree with you, it was easy to tank 3 AVs. I have a ping of 32 when using my internet card and even better when I'm using my usb adapter. It's not my ping that's preventing me from spamming. Side-stepping and whatnot is obviously gone, even though I never used it, but we literally have nothing to help our spam. Not even Magic Strings helps with it. -1... clown is already a powerful job. clown/gypsies with good ping that can AV 4-5x will be OP if the av spam will be enhanced. Says the person that wants to be able to spam Desp without a delay again. Trust me, even back when some of us could get up to 6 AV's, it was never OP. It's an easy skill to ygg through, even on gtb. If any skill is OP, it's tarot and, honestly, would you prefer us to tarot you until you die and break your stuff, or actually use something that you can work against with the press of a button? As of now, tarot can force somebody into gtb, but 2-3 AV on gtb won't kill anything but an exceptionally undergeared player. I believe I brought this issue up both in-game and on the forums already. The lack of arrow vulcan spam causes nearly all clowns to switch to reduction builds and simply and brainlessly spam tarot all day to win a fight. I don't know who told you this, but that person has no idea what he's talking about. Arrow vulcan can be consistent, yes. But the way right now it's possible to consistenly do 2-3 av's. Not more than that. 4 is a very very rare exception when being stunlocked. anyone that does 5 av's is using a third party program/cheating tools/ (which is obviously illegal) or they are animation cancelling (which is also illegal at this moment. (being discussed). Report any clown/gypsy that's doing 5 avs. My own spam is pretty consistent on 3's. But that's not going to kill anyone. Even gtb users can oftenly ygg through a spam of 3 avs. I also know it's not my net causing it because before the changes I was able to do 4-5 very often and even 6 at rare occasions when being completely stunlocked. Now I don't want to revert things back to that spam because with the newer gears and such it'd be too overpowered. my personal preferation is to allow clowns/gypsies to cancel their animation within the game's own mechanics. (Just like champs and other jobs are allowed to cancel theirs, example Zen cancels out the fury sprite, zen cancels out the fo sprite. by using zen they remove the sprite delay from the other skills. (imo they should be allowed to do so, it's a key part of the game's mechanics. Without this being allowed/used champs would be useless) Clowns can do such a thing too, even though it's a lot harder to use it effectively and it needs a lot more keys, but once you get used to it it can pretty much give you (slightly slower) but constant spam. I already demonstrated this to Veracity and she informed me that allowing it or not allowing it will be discussed with Genesis. As for now, however, clowns are not allowed to use the tactic. Bottom line: Arrow vulcan is one of those skills that are insanely hard to balance. Right now it's slightly underpowered but a slightest change can make it overpowered already. I personally think allowing clowns/gypsy to cancel their sprite (within the game mechanics , not by illegal crap of course, these 2 are very easy to differentiate when watching the clown/gypsy) would be the best step to take at this moment. Reasoning for this opinion is the fact that it doesn't require any changes to the server at this time, it's only a change of rules which can easily be reverted when it turns out to be too strong. Other examples of classes cancelling sprites: Sniper using falcon eyes to remove delay from arrow shower Priest side-step walking to reduce delay on the heal skill Flying side kick/mild wind to cancel out tumbling sprite It was pretty fine the way it was last I played about 6 months ago, even with the rings and bragi/sif. It's not difficult to counter and, as I, you, and others have said, easily ygged through unlike the high speed/damage of SB. Now, I've never used sprite cancelling for gypsy, but I do, of course, for champ (obviously), but even now sprite cancelling through sprite lock (being hit) rarely gets me a 3rd AV. Hell, all you'd really need to do is fix the spam and remove the 10% from bragi's/sif's and it'd give us a useful skill outside of tarot.
Rayray Posted October 5, 2013 Report Posted October 5, 2013 ^ Then something must have been done to the AV spam server side if you cannot spam it even with your very awesome ping. Because I got 180 -250 ping and we can spam the same amount of AV. Seriously, the only thing that makes clown/gypsy seem OP is their coma on the Tarot skill, which btw can be avoided even without going gtb if you were spamming seeds along(if you use a class that has limited SP that you have to spam seeds along with the skill, LK is a good example). If it comes to choosing which skill is better, I prefer the AV being buffed indirectly by fixing its spam, and lowering the chance of the coma Tarot.
Kayla Minerre Posted October 5, 2013 Author Report Posted October 5, 2013 If it comes to choosing which skill is better, I prefer the AV being buffed indirectly by fixing its spam, and lowering the chance of the coma Tarot. I'm down with this. Honestly, I prefer to use skill than dumb crap. I mean, it's helpful when doing raids and stuff, but outside of it, tarot is OP and AV useless.
