Loki's Blade & Loki’S Infernal Dagger. Kiels?

[Shadi]

Hello all,

In the last major patch/update we had several changes to the soulbreaker skill and we got a new weapon that could be used for soul breaker. However, soulbreakers delay is still horrible. Now it's already said that it'll be looked into but there might be an easier way to solve this.

My suggestion is to add the following effect to the Loki's blade and Loki's infernal dagger:

-10% Cast delay rate.

What does this do?

Basically this is 1 third's of a kiel. This means with 3 kiels and the weapon the delay reduction is 100% (this is the same as with sonic blow atm).

Now what effect does this bring?

A lot of people would probably say "No" right away because it sounds overpowered. However by giving this effect to the blade/dagger the ONLY skill sinx has that is greatly effected by this and can be used with a sword/dagger is soul breaker. There's just nothing else that can be effectively take use from this buff as meteor assault depends on agi, and throw sand had no delay already. Now this will make the spam fast, true. But it'll finally give sinx an alternative way of playing and a more kind of ranged build.

Let me know what you think :).

[Rayray]

I myself do not think it is because of the cast delays.

We did some testing for it, if you use a katar for soul breaker, the spam is as fast as CT(using 3 kiels). To eliminate the chance that kitty claws' delay decrease playing a part on the spam rate, I used normal npc bought katars. It spams fast on 3 kiels.

However, any dagger or blade, or combinations available for them (dagger and blade, dual blades, dual dagger dagger and shield, or blade and shield) would make soul breaker spam so slow that it isn't worth the bonus damage given by the weapons(loki's blade and the new dagger) for the skill, even on 3 kiels(I even tried with expert rings and such). I believe it has to be fixed internally, but I can't be sure.

[Shadi]

Nah, I just tested it with kitty claw, regular katar and no weapon. No weapon and regular katar were really slow. Kitty claws were really fast. So I'm pretty sure it's just the after cast delay :O.

[Rayray]

must have been changed ever since I tested. If that is the case, then +1. No reason buffing the skill if the spam is slow.

[ChainBreak]

Did you try spamming with cursed ring already?

With the additional 5% after cast redux the spam should be faster. If the overall spam is just increased it could easily become op with high dmg.

[Rayray]

No spam should reach more than 100% anyway. It won't make the damage OP because let us be honest, SBK damage isn't as huge as Sonic Blow. The closest skill that actually resembles SBK is Cart Termination, but then that skill's damage is increased too, and only needs around 2 kiels to spam.

[ChainBreak]

The difference between SBK and SB & CT is that it's ranged. So it's holds the possibility for hardcore evading + dealing damage.

For SB & CT you still need to get close so you always risk getting damaged, especially is the opponent decides to go for reflect.

If SBK dmg is at around 50k with faster spam than FAS it can get op. Also because high SBK dmg doesn't mean you cannot also have high SB dmg. If SinX get the ability to deal a lot of dmg in both ranged and melee attacks the class would become op.

I main SinX, but I really wouldn't like 100% after cast redux on SBK.

[Bishop]

SBK will never reach 50k damage unless it's with thana vs a none skoll user. Other than that SBK mostly ranges from 11k to 25k max.

[benchiiie]

lool. And FAS comes in the argument. =_=

[Rayray]

The difference between SBK and SB & CT is that it's ranged. So it's holds the possibility for hardcore evading + dealing damage.

For SB & CT you still need to get close so you always risk getting damaged, especially is the opponent decides to go for reflect.

If SBK dmg is at around 50k with faster spam than FAS it can get op. Also because high SBK dmg doesn't mean you cannot also have high SB dmg. If SinX get the ability to deal a lot of dmg in both ranged and melee attacks the class would become op.

I main SinX, but I really wouldn't like 100% after cast redux on SBK.

And the difference between SBK and CT is that CT got cards and items that increases the shit out of the skill(forger card, the weapon gives huge boost, ring). You do realize that high SBK damage and high SB damage will never happen unless the sinx is in full buffs + gospel? SBK has a different build compared to Sonic blow(it needs int to get the best damage). You can try going SB with SBK build, but it will never hit as big as a pure SB sinx that has high STR.

And as Bishop said, SBK will reach 50k+ ONLY if you have thana and hit non skoll users, even on dual weapons. the fact that EDP don't affect the skill is already a setback on it. SBK is also blocked by pneuma too. Giving it a decent spam rate(not the one it has now) wouldn't make the build too OP, it will just make a new direction of build for sinx.

Oh, and I mained sinx and all its builds from 2008- 2010 in this server. We had SBK spam then as fast as CT, we even had irish hat(+40 to all stats) working then and I can't make SBK damage more than 80k with thana, and we didn't have the reducts stuff we had now(rings, capes, eidelics, friggs). How in the hell will that be OP? We already tested on the damage, 20k-25k damage isn't OP, comparing it to what Sonic blow does. The only thing an SBK sinx can do is auto attack if SBK does low damage.

[ChainBreak]

Well 95% after cast redux seems just fine to me for SBK.

If you want pure SBK builds to work then you're not considering the other possibilities for the class. SB builds can go high STR and still deal 10k SBKs from afar. The class also has good evasive abilities so they can just dodge and hit all the time and then suddenly go for the SB spam to kill the enemy in 1 shot.

Every ranged skill except for magic is blocked by Pneuma so I don't know how that is supposed to be an argument. Throw Kunai is also blocked by Pneuma, does that make the skill worthless?

SBK was intended to be a skill that hits decent dmg while keeping the spam lower. It's a skill to wear down the opponent not to kill them in a high frequenzy spam or burst dmg. It's a skill that works like poison: slow, but deadly.

Oh and what a wonderful argument bringing up the old times. Ever thought why the old times are gone now? Because the GMs and Gen worked on the balance so that op stuff would get taken care of. I'm pretty sure there is a reason why there is only a low bonus (compared to CT) for SBK dmg on the Loki's Blade & Dagger.

[Rayray]

Oh and what fine argument bringing up the percentage when you haven't even tested it yourself. The spam rate was only decent when using kitty claws(with its reduce delay). It is fast enough on kitty claws, but the damage was not that good anyway.

Why would an SB built sinx use SBK that deals 10k damage when he can get better results on grimtooth? and for the record, an SB sinx can do SBK because you can spam well on kitty claws, just saying.

I bring up the old times because we didn't have reducts then, that was my point. My point then was even though our reducts was not high, SBK still cannot get OP damage unlike other skills. Put it back to the present, with all the reducts, no way in hell a decent spam rate of SBK is gonna be OP with just hitting around 25k at most. We are not even talking about the damage, ONLY THE SPAM RATE WAS STUPID TO BEGIN WITH. Ever seen an SBK sinx around now except Brian(Shadi)? No one tries it out, because you cannot spam it decently. Seriously, do I always have to explain the point of the statement when it is really obvious?

We are not comparing ranged skill with SBK when I brought up pneuma, we are comparing CT and SBK because they both share same qualities except that one is melee, and one is ranged. If we look at the damage, spamrate and usability of those two skills, CT wins hands down, but mainly due to the spam rate of SBK.

SBK was intended to be a skill that hits GREAT DAMAGE, not just decent. But wait, this is a high rate server with a lot of customs. what was originally intended in normal servers is not supposed to be reflected here.

TL;DR- What was the point of making Loki's blade and the new dagger that helps on SBK, when you cannot spam the skill without kitty claws?

[ChainBreak]

Well if that's the case I don't see the point in improving the spam.

Making it do more dmg is better imo. Just give it good dmg and be done with it. Just doing 24/7 spamming on SBK while backsliding like a lunatic doesn't seem that nice to me.

[Shadi]

The difference between SBK and SB & CT is that it's ranged. So it's holds the possibility for hardcore evading + dealing damage.

For SB & CT you still need to get close so you always risk getting damaged, especially is the opponent decides to go for reflect.

If SBK dmg is at around 50k with faster spam than FAS it can get op. Also because high SBK dmg doesn't mean you cannot also have high SB dmg. If SinX get the ability to deal a lot of dmg in both ranged and melee attacks the class would become op.

I main SinX, but I really wouldn't like 100% after cast redux on SBK.

There's a lot more differences. CT got a big damage boost on boot cards and on the weapon. SBK only has a small damage buff on the weapon and that's it. SBK can easily be reduced by anti range items and skills, CT can't. SBK can not be spammed, CT can be spammed.

especially is the opponent decides to go for reflect.

CT can not be reflected in any single way.

If SBK dmg is at around 50k with faster spam than FAS it can get op. Also because high SBK dmg doesn't mean you cannot also have high SB dmg. If SinX get the ability to deal a lot of dmg in both ranged and melee attacks the class would become op.

In what universe does SBK do 50k damage? The average damage on a full SBK build is about 10-20k at the moment and can not be spammed at all. Also sonic blow and SBK require 2 completely different builds. Your SBK will do crap damage in a sonic blow build. Your sonic blow build will have lower damage and crap survivability in an SBK build. So in your opinion when a class has a ranged attack and melee attack they are overpowered. Lord knights have spiral pierce, bowling bash and spear boomerang. I easily reach 20k+ spear boomerang and I can spam it like no tomorrow. This is higher damage than SBK and faster spamrate. Champions can asura + FO. Champions is all about speed so their spam is good too. WS have CT + throw tommahawk. Tommahawk can be spammed decently and has a lot more damage than SBK. I don't see your point. To add onto all that LK, champion and WS can use the exact same build to utilize both range and melee, while sinx will have 2 separate builds to be viable.

SBK was intended to be a skill that hits decent dmg while keeping the spam lower. It's a skill to wear down the opponent not to kill them in a high frequenzy spam or burst dmg. It's a skill that works like poison: slow, but deadly.

Spiral pierce and acid demonstration were created as slower and high burst skills too, yet they are spammable on here. This is a highrate server, skills that were slow need to catch up on speed to cope with the rest of the game balance.

Oh and what a wonderful argument bringing up the old times. Ever thought why the old times are gone now? Because the GMs and Gen worked on the balance so that op stuff would get taken care of. I'm pretty sure there is a reason why there is only a low bonus (compared to CT) for SBK dmg on the Loki's Blade & Dagger.

CT is the WS's main skill, of course the GMs looked into balancing the general skills of an underpowered class first before attempting to promote additional playing styles on different classes. Now that they balanced all classes very decently they are promoting different playstyles on those classes. Just because it hasn't been looked into much yet doesn't mean that it's this way on purpose. They have a low % bonus damage for a reason, it's because they don't want to overdo it. It's better to keep it low and get feedback from the community that it should be higher, instead of giving it a huge boost and having to deal with complaints and requests to nerf.

Well if that's the case I don't see the point in improving the spam.

Making it do more dmg is better imo. Just give it good dmg and be done with it. Just doing 24/7 spamming on SBK while backsliding like a lunatic doesn't seem that nice to me.

You can boost the damage as much as you want, with the current spam on the blades it won't do much. It'd need at least a 500% damage increase and even then I doubt it'd be viable to use with the current speed. Just because you don't like the ranged playstyle from sinx doesn't mean it'd be OP. Your personal opinion is that you don't want backsliding and sbk spamming sinx's. That has nothing to do with balance, that has something to do with you not wanting to deal with them and thus not wanting them to have their ranged playstyle.

Last but not least

What was the point of making Loki's blade and the new dagger that helps on SBK, when you cannot spam the skill without kitty claws?

+1

Edited August 14, 2013 by Shadi

[Hypnosis]

Should have spammability.

+1

[Myuu00]

+1

You should be joking, SBK's damage is, well in my case, 42k max >.> thats with two hands, and you will reason out that its ranged? please take into consideration FAS, which you can also equip a shield while using a bow. also, take into consideration that SBK can be lowered using GTB...

[ChainBreak]

Sbk cant be lowered using gtb. It's "perfect" magic that always deals 100% though it can still be blocked by pneuma.

[Rayray]

^ yep, SBK isn't affected by GTB. Now would you please create arguments based on what Shadi posted?

[ChainBreak]

^ yep, SBK isn't affected by GTB. Now would you please create arguments based on what Shadi posted?

Why would I if I don't think he's wrong?

I already said that I would prefer slow and high dmg over fast and lower dmg.

[Rayray]

Oh I just assumed you disagree to that, considering we basically have the same points and you disagreed with me.

[ChainBreak]

Well he took the time to properly elaborate what he's talking about so he was better understandable than you were.

Assuming that everyone has the same knowledge as you is a wrong way to approach the problem of communicating your thoughts. If you explain properly I can understand properly. Just saying.

[Prince_Jester]

+1

as all of the explanations and arguements seems to be turning into one good thing ^^

[Rayray]

Well he took the time to properly elaborate what he's talking about so he was better understandable than you were.

Assuming that everyone has the same knowledge as you is a wrong way to approach the problem of communicating your thoughts. If you explain properly I can understand properly. Just saying.

Which of my statements were actually vague to you? Because I simply cannot see it.

[ChainBreak]

Well he explained why CT is so much stronger compared to SBK while you just said it's stronger.

Same for the other arguments. He provided more information.

[Rayray]

I see. Well I just assumed that you knew how SBK is weaker than CT, considering you said you mained sinx. I just thought it was common knowledge. My bad.