Non-Berry Pvp

[Len]

Greetings,

I recently visited the fRO PvP for the first time and had to find out that you can heal yourself with Yggdrasil Berries and Seeds.

My suggestion would be to add a third PvP-room where you can't use those healing items. The reason is obvious. According to my experience, the outcome of fights with berries depend on which player can carry more berries / click the hotkey faster / slips his/her finger when trying to use a berry. I just don't think that PvP should be depending on this kind of things.

Plus, if the third room would just be added, it wouldn't influence the current PvP activities, as everyone could choose to use the old rooms. :)

Cheers,

Len

EDIT:

so far we came to the conclusion, that adding this proposed room could make fights very fast and overpowered. Many of you stated that such a room would be impossible because of the customs on this server. To re-balance this, some changes would be required. Possibly regarding equipment / statpoints etc. This could mean some additional effort but I think it would be worth it, since I see the usage of berries as some kind of "workaround" for an actual balanced PvP. Just wanted to recapitulate what we got yet.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Len

[HealHard]

Negative. all the balance is based on seeds and yggs. then you should reduce all the damage in PvP room by like 95% so people dont oneshot each other. and that will cause more problems with SP for champs etc...

[Len]

Well, I would say that this issue is mainly caused by some of the custom items, especially the elite equipment. I don't possess any of them yet but as far as I can judge from what I've read they are giving an immense damage boost. Combined with other things like the Tao-nerf I understand that this would sometimes result in one-hit-wonders. But allowing berries as a solution for this problem seems more like a workaround rather than an actual improvement. Just my two cents.

Bringing total balance to this would probably be more complicated. That's why I only suggested to add the said room instead of replacing the current ones. :)

[Aerynth]

I disagree, I played those type of servers before. Its indeed fun, but the servers there rely on mainly normal attacks not skills. Cards and such, unlike Fro the items here are customized so it has a high PvP environment. The fact that most of us uses skills and not having enough SP to keep spamming, is enough to say that we need seed/berry to PvP.

From my experience people would go 1v1 in that kind of situation. If you wanna open up a non-berry room, what if someone goes in and gang on you? You can't expect them to go 1v1 when everyone is chasing after kills for PvP tokens.

[Len]

I disagree, I played those type of servers before. Its indeed fun, but the servers there rely on mainly normal attacks not skills. Cards and such, unlike Fro the items here are customized so it has a high PvP environment. The fact that most of us uses skills and not having enough SP to keep spamming, is enough to say that we need seed/berry to PvP.

I actually never experienced servers where the players had to use normal attacks instead of skills because of SP-shortage. That's indeed an interesting point but I don't think that this would be that much of a problem to be honest. One had to try it out.

From my experience people would go 1v1 in that kind of situation. If you wanna open up a non-berry room, what if someone goes in and gang on you? You can't expect them to go 1v1 when everyone is chasing after kills for PvP tokens.

Coming to that I've never been a person that had a problem with being ganged up or dying in PvP so it wouldn't be that much of a problem for me. Other people could of course be bugged by that. So I can only speak for myself here.

Okay, let me pose a better question here. Are you actually happy with the berry-solution or do you just accept it because you need it for balancing (as a workaround, as I would call it)? Because if so, the solution would be to work out further balancing. Of course only if players and admins are willing to do so.

If you are clinging to the berry-version just because you like the berries than we don't have to discuss this any further because than it is better as is. :)

[Aerynth]

If you are clinging to the berry-version just because you like the berries than we don't have to discuss this any further because than it is better as is. :)

Well as sarcastic as it sounds, yea you got me. I prefer seed/berry, or else I'll be dead in 1 sec. Sorry I'm noob.

[Nadtorious]

I'm not sure about this one.

What about champions?

They'll use Asura 1 time, what happens next? :|

[Len]

Well as sarcastic as it sounds, yea you got me. I prefer seed/berry, or else I'll be dead in 1 sec. Sorry I'm noob.

:D

I'm not sure about this one.

What about champions?

They'll use Asura 1 time, what happens next? :|

I think they can either use the variety of other skills a Champion has or blue pots. :) Edited January 4, 2012 by Len

[Bishop]

Damage output as it is is way too high to disable the use of yggs/seeds. Sure we can add the room but the way things are now everyone would be 1 shotted. I dont think this would be of much use at the moment unless we would change an immense amount of items. Adding to that is the fact that on most servers of these rates the father bishop hibram card is nullified. On our server it does work which pretty much doubles all PvP damage while the survivability with things such as tao gunka is nerfed here. Due to the fbh card yggs/seeds are needed more due to the sp descrease and the pvp damage increase.

Dont get me wrong I love the idea of no-ygg pvp rooms. But balancing would take ages and would most likely also effect balancing outside of the room.

[Len]

Damage output as it is is way too high to disable the use of yggs/seeds. Sure we can add the room but the way things are now everyone would be 1 shotted. I dont think this would be of much use at the moment unless we would change an immense amount of items. Adding to that is the fact that on most servers of these rates the father bishop hibram card is nullified. On our server it does work which pretty much doubles all PvP damage while the survivability with things such as tao gunka is nerfed here. Due to the fbh card yggs/seeds are needed more due to the sp descrease and the pvp damage increase.

Dont get me wrong I love the idea of no-ygg pvp rooms. But balancing would take ages and would most likely also effect balancing outside of the room.

I totally agree with you here. As stated before the server as is needs berries and seeds for balancing. Even more with the effects you mentioned.

So I think you guys might be right about the one-hit problem. So could any other balancing be possible? It appears that you are all aware of this "problem". But as I said before, enabling yggdrasil berries seems more like a workaround than a real solution.

Would the admin-team be willing to take other measures to balance this? Should someone open another thread for this as this differs from the original idea of this thread?

I would love to see some balancing on this issue and I am willing to contribute with some suggestions (and I am sure many other users would love to). But the suggestion rules state that we should take the effort of our suggestions into consideration and I think this would be a rather complex one. I as a new player on this server don't claim to have the ultimate solution for this and surely many users are used to the current behaviour (Aerynth for example). So I would like to hear the teams opinion on this before taking this any further:

Are you actually happy with the berry-solution or do you just accept it because you need it for balancing (as a workaround, as I would call it)? Because if so, the solution would be to work out further balancing. Of course only if players and admins are willing to do so.

If you are clinging to the berry-version just because you like the berries than we don't have to discuss this any further because than it is better as is. :)

[supream]

no berry pvp room with the gears we have wouldnt work lol. but there was something like this called annihilation but i guess either the gms didnt want to host it anymore or no one showed up to do it.

[Dudu]

I totally disagree. In a server like this, fully customized, you can die in seconds, if this room gets enabled, Sinx's, Clowns and Sniper will own. And if we ever get to implement this, i could be very abused with the Ladder kills.

[Len]

Maybe I should edit this into the first post to clearify what we have discussed so far for other users who want to join the discussion.

Yes, this could possibly make fights very fast and require some other changes. But I was wondering whether anybody would like to see those changes to make fights balanced and enjoyable even without berries. That could of course take some effort but I would love to have it that way instead of depending on how many berries I can carry.

[Veracity]

Yes, I think people see the topic of your suggestion and instantly think "OMG NO" and don't read the rest of what you said, particularly your later posts. Your replies have been very thoughtful, and it's nice to see that you're interested in trying to improve the server. I agree with you that ideally PvP isn't about how many berries a player can carry. However, this seems to be more common among servers with higher rates (speaking from general experience). I do understand where you're coming from, but this server has been around for a while and we have such a large variety of custom items that changing the way things work here would be very complicated and difficult to do. It's hard to say without some concrete ideas being thrown out there, at the very least. Maybe there are other alternatives, too. Maybe we could have a cool down on healing items and increase the defensive options (e.g., buffing Tao Gunka). I'm not saying that's the way to go, but maybe there are other approaches instead of reducing the effects of all of our custom gears.

[Kittie]

So now you're suggesting a server wide nerf on damage? I'm confused.

[Sensation]

To reply to the initial suggestion, it has been tried before and it didn't work out at all. People weren't joining or the ones who did were newbies who just fed the better geared players with kills.

Auto-attack classes will have too much of an advantage in there too as consumables will recover a lot less health & sp with the same damage output we currently have,

an even further unbalance would occur in such situations.

The idea itself is nice, but not for a fully customized HR server like Forsaken, it just won't work.

[Len]

I'm glad to see that there is so much constructive critism. I expected to be dealing with much more incomprehension. :)

So now you're suggesting a server wide nerf on damage? I'm confused.

Kind of. Many replies stated that having a non-berry room wouldn't be possible without nerfing other items. So the next consideration would be about how to achieve that.

Yes, I think people see the topic of your suggestion and instantly think "OMG NO" and don't read the rest of what you said, particularly your later posts. Your replies have been very thoughtful, and it's nice to see that you're interested in trying to improve the server. I agree with you that ideally PvP isn't about how many berries a player can carry. However, this seems to be more common among servers with higher rates (speaking from general experience). I do understand where you're coming from, but this server has been around for a while and we have such a large variety of custom items that changing the way things work here would be very complicated and difficult to do. It's hard to say without some concrete ideas being thrown out there, at the very least. Maybe there are other alternatives, too. Maybe we could have a cool down on healing items and increase the defensive options (e.g., buffing Tao Gunka). I'm not saying that's the way to go, but maybe there are other approaches instead of reducing the effects of all of our custom gears.

I pondered a while over the cooldown thingy which seemed like a pretty good idea at first. But I think it wouldn't really help at all as especially classes who are able to run by backsliding or snaping would just do that for the time of the cooldown. At the moment I really can't come up with another idea than an extensive nerf which I understand that none of the veteran-players is willing to support. I would be pissed too if I spent some time gathering my gear which is then just removed. Especially if the way it is worked out for a long time and now one new player is suggesting a change. But as this would happen in the name of fairness maybe you can still think about it. I claim that it would increase the fun in PvP - for veterans as well as for new players.

But that's of course up to the community whether they are willing to go through that balancing.

[HealHard]

if you do not like the machanics of this server, why not just joining another one? this server is BASED on Ygg and Skills Spam. you dont like that? then i think its not the server for you.

[Len]

if you do not like the machanics of this server, why not just joining another one? this server is BASED on Ygg and Skills Spam. you dont like that? then i think its not the server for you.

Thats a point you could close every suggestion thread with.

[Aerynth]

Its not that we're mean or anything, we welcome all new players. For you to come out with a suggestion, it is very much appreciated. Unfortunately what you are asking is something from your familiarity from your previous server. Things here in Fro works very differently, as it is a high rate server with a highly customized PvP environment. You're still new here, so you coming out with this suggestion can be very much question, it has been tested out before and it doesn't work out here. People would just use this get more kills for PvP tokens, its worth a lot here in our server if you do not already know, and by having that PvP room would create a lot of abuse. I was once from your kind of server, try to adapt. I now prefer long battles than to die immediately, try getting yourself familiarize with Fro, if you don't like it. Move to another server as what HealHard said.

It's not that we veterans do not support, its a very immature statement coming out from a new player to us. We have been here way longer, we know what works here. So do not trash talk us, I'm just being straight forward.

[Len]

That isn't very nice of you as I tried to be polite and to understand your situation. Plus I never said that new players wouldn't be supported.

Servers often have the problem that they are deadlocked at some point because everyone is used to the current behaviour. It's not that I want to change fRO to make it fit my personal preferences from other servers rather than trying to make a suggestion that could mean an actual improvement from my point of view.

But as I can see now you are not comfortable with this suggestion so I think this topic can be closed now. :)

[Veracity]

That isn't very nice of you as I tried to be polite and to understand your situation. Plus I never said that new players wouldn't be supported.

Servers often have the problem that they are deadlocked at some point because everyone is used to the current behaviour. It's not that I want to change fRO to make it fit my personal preferences from other servers rather than trying to make a suggestion that could mean an actual improvement from my point of view.

Yes, the players won't agree with you on this but as staff, we realize that this is true. However, we cannot just completely change the mechanics of our server. It needs to be gradual. We're not opposed to change in the long run for the improvement of the server, but as you've already acknowledged, what you're proposing is quite drastic. For suggestions like this, it's best to discuss with a staff member (particularly one of the development team members, such as myself, Wish or Genesis). You can feel free to run ideas by us anytime, we're always happy to hear new players' thoughts on the server and where we have room to improve.