Universal Buffer

[Xtopher]

Ok, I've been thinking about how this could work for a while. I find the GH (Guild Hideout) buffer a bit too elitist. The server is already highly elitist (catering to the heavily geared/richer crowd). The fact that the npc is a guild thing only makes it more so. Richer players can pool their tokens and buy out the buffer over and over, hell they can do it just out of spite to keep others from having it (I believe Ming and Som have done this in the past).

What I'm suggesting is something for the whole server to be able to use. Read what I'm saying carefully.

An NPC in Forsaken City or another map that people can warp to that gives similar buffs as the guild buffer. The cost to the player will be X amount of tokens for Y hours of buff service. So, in essence you talk to the npc, buy the buff totem for lets say 3 tokens (amounts can be negotiated) and this totem allows you to be buffed. After, lets say 2-3 hours your totem leaves your inventory and you must repurchase. You could make it cost event tokens, activity tokens, or any combination of the like 10 types of tokens we have.

I understand the point of the GH is to drain tokens from the economy, but I feel in its present form its entirely too elitist. The rich get more powerful, and through using it in WoE get richer as well.

If this was implemented the GH would have to be changed obviously. Maybe make it a GvG prize? One GvG token to access the GH for your guild for a week or two? This may require making more than one hideout for multiple guilds to occupy, but whats the problem with that? I believe you would just have to make similar NPCs in another spot.

GH would still have the advantage of the disguise npc, item previewer, and as well as a great home base for the guild. The universal buff doesn't have to give the same buffs, just something similar.

************************************Update Below*************************************

Ok, so I added up the last 3 auctions of GH last bid. The total for 3 auctions is 7897 tokens (This is artificially inflated because Som paid a super high premium to be the first to get it, 4k tokens.)

Now, divide this number by 3 for 3 auctions and we get 2632.33 (Remember, still artificially inflated), which is the average token drain from one GH auction over the last 3 auctions.

Now we divide the 2632.33 by 336 (the number of hours in two weeks). Thus, on average the GH is draining 7.834 tokens per hour (artificially inflated, thanks Som).

This number is only going to go down in time because people aren't going to be paying 4k tokens per auction.

So, if we charge 1 Donation token and 2 event tokens for a buff (Event tokens trade at 1 Event for 2 Donations I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) that's a total token value of 5 per hour for unlimited buffs in that hour.

This is with only one person, imagine 10-15 people using this npc per hour (If we truly have 250-300 players this is possible) and about 50-60 using it during WoE. Over time I think even if you charged 3 tokens for 2 hours of buff you will drain more tokens than the guild hideout.

This will probably even spark pvp more. People can full buff themselves and run in to destroy people... Bringing mid-geared players closer to pvp-able status.

It has been brought to my attention that people use the hideout buffs for farming too. This would be great for new players, pay a fee for full buffs for an hour which will greatly increase your farming capacity!

Edited August 15, 2011 by Xtopher

[xXxJCxXx]

A very nice suggestion indeed. It can also drain tokens from the economy since buffer is available to everyone. Kinda like the seed and speed pass.

Cost and buffs may have to be decided by the community but personally 3 tokens for an hour and maybe reduce lvl of buffs is ok IMO.

+1 on this

[Veracity]

What buffs would you suggest this NPC has? Also, just to clarify, when you say they have the totem, this would only allow them to be buffed by the NPC, right? As in, they would still have to go and talk to the NPC each time?

[xXxJCxXx]

What buffs would you suggest this NPC has? Also, just to clarify, when you say they have the totem, this would only allow them to be buffed by the NPC, right? As in, they would still have to go and talk to the NPC each time?

This item should exist in your inventory in order for you to get the buffs. It should be available maybe via renter. Then once you have it in inventory you can talk to the npc and give u the buffs. I think that was Chris is suggesting. For the buffs im still not sure. maybe half level as the one in the guild hideout buffs?

Kinda like the valk weapon and elite weapon.

Valk Weapon = GH Buffs

Elite Weapon = NPC Buff

They give the same buffs but reduced.

[Xtopher]

What buffs would you suggest this NPC has? Also, just to clarify, when you say they have the totem, this would only allow them to be buffed by the NPC, right? As in, they would still have to go and talk to the NPC each time?

Yes, its an inventory item that the NPC will check for before buffing you.

Can you tell me the buffs the GH gives and their levels? Or link me to the place where its listed with the level of each buff? Then I'll be able to give a more accurate suggestion on the Universal Buffer buffs.

PS: Can someone confirm how many donation tokens for event tokens in a trade? It's been a while since I've traded them.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Xtopher

[Meka Meka]

Well thought out proposal. I agree with the math, and the concept of making the advantage of a GH buff accessible to everyone, thereby evening the playing field.

Just need to figure out the buffs themselves.

I think reduced lvl GH buffs is a good idea - may need some tweaking to differentiate from the actual GH.

Here are the current GH buffs (and other features):

[Xtopher]

Well thought out proposal. I agree with the math, and the concept of making the advantage of a GH buff accessible to everyone, thereby evening the playing field.

Just need to figure out the buffs themselves.

I think reduced lvl GH buffs is a good idea - may need some tweaking to differentiate from the actual GH.

Here are the current GH buffs (and other features):

Thanks!

Are all the buffs obtained from the GH maximum lvl? Example: Lvl 10 blessing etc..

[Seraphine]

Nice idea especially seeing some numbers which backs the idea that it can work.

[Kittie]

I don't necessarily want this to happen - it reminds me of how Buffer NPCs in Lineage 2 ruin gameplay by increasing damage to high levels without increasing HP so people just die quicker.

I guess I would be okay with it since I just donate for more tokens when I need to buy yggs. So in that regard I don't see how its entirely not elitist, but whatever.

[Xtopher]

I don't necessarily want this to happen - it reminds me of how Buffer NPCs in Lineage 2 ruin gameplay by increasing damage to high levels without increasing HP so people just die quicker.

I guess I would be okay with it since I just donate for more tokens when I need to buy yggs. So in that regard I don't see how its entirely not elitist, but whatever.

People already have the buffs and that distance already exists, so that's kind of irrelevant Kittie. You're against the entire guild buffer then. I think we need to accept the fact that its here and ingame and just look for ways to make it fair for all players.

Also, like I said... this isn't just for pvp. People farm with buffs too, it makes it go much faster.

[Sorrow]

They can do it out of spite to keep other from having

i just love how he worded it xD

Kittie has a point, buffs galore and everyone can do a heck load of damages, while damage goes through the roof, the surviving factors don't keep up with it.

But in all, i do believe all hell broke lose with the implementation of the hideout buffer already so might as well give chances for everyone equally~

It certainly seems it'll be for the benefit of the community; if the point is token drain, i believe a smaller but constant drain like this can do it nicely.

Also yes, it seems all buffs from the hideout come at maximum level. i.e. ; Blessing-Increase Agility come on Lv 10, Assumptio-Impositio Manus-Adrenaline-Gloria on level 5 and so on.

Enlarging on the Toten idea, i think i might have something to add that might help;

There could be 4 types of said 'totens' each with a price a buffs available.

*Bronze Toten-cheapest, has is usefulness focused on buffs that help hunting.

Buffs granted-Blessing, Increase Agility, Wind Walker, Angelus and Magnificat.

Suggested Price- 1 Donation Token per hour on the inventory, 10 tokens for 12 hours.

*Silver Toten-a more offensive PvP-oriented bufingf toten.

Buffs granted-Same as Bronze and plus Attention Concentrate, Gloria, Impositio Manus, Sufragium, Weapon Perfection, Maximize Power, Overthrust, ASPD Potion and Loud Exclamation.

Suggesteed Price- 3 Donation tokens per hour on the inventory, 30 tokens for 12 hours.

*Golden Toten-a full buffing toten.

Buffs granted-Same as Silver and plus Melt Down, Kaite, Kaahi, Kaupe, Kaizel, Endure, Concentration, Aura Blade and True Sight.

Suggested Price- 5 Donation tokens per hour on the inventory, no discont for hours in bulk.

*Platinum Totem-toten of all buffs and then some more.

Buffs granted-Same as Golden and plus All stat food buffs.

Suggested Price- 7 Donation tokens per hour on the inventory.

Just an idea...

I'm not sure where to fit Assumptio...

[Xtopher]

i just love how he worded it xD

Kittie has a point, buffs galore and everyone can do a heck load of damages, while damage goes through the roof, the surviving factors don't keep up with it.

But in all, i do believe all hell broke lose with the implementation of the hideout buffer already so might as well give chances for everyone equally~

It certainly seems it'll be for the benefit of the community; if the point is token drain, i believe a smaller but constant drain like this can do it nicely.

Also yes, it seems all buffs from the hideout come at maximum level. i.e. ; Blessing-Increase Agility come on Lv 10, Assumptio-Impositio Manus-Adrenaline-Gloria on level 5 and so on.

Enlarging on the Toten idea, i think i might have something to add that might help;

There could be 4 types of said 'totens' each with a price a buffs available.

*Bronze Toten-cheapest, has is usefulness focused on buffs that help hunting.

Buffs granted-Blessing, Increase Agility, Wind Walker, Angelus and Magnificat.

Suggested Price- 1 Donation Token per hour on the inventory, 10 tokens for 12 hours.

*Silver Toten-a more offensive PvP-oriented bufingf toten.

Buffs granted-Same as Bronze and plus Attention Concentrate, Gloria, Impositio Manus, Sufragium, Weapon Perfection, Maximize Power, Overthrust, ASPD Potion and Loud Exclamation.

Suggesteed Price- 3 Donation tokens per hour on the inventory, 30 tokens for 12 hours.

*Golden Toten-a full buffing toten.

Buffs granted-Same as Silver and plus Melt Down, Kaite, Kaahi, Kaupe, Kaizel, Endure, Concentration, Aura Blade and True Sight.

Suggested Price- 5 Donation tokens per hour on the inventory, no discont for hours in bulk.

*Platinum Totem-toten of all buffs and then some more.

Buffs granted-Same as Golden and plus All stat food buffs.

Suggested Price- 7 Donation tokens per hour on the inventory.

Just an idea...

I'm not sure where to fit Assumptio...

Interesting idea! Assumptio should come in at the pvp group.

I'd like to hear what others have to say. Thanks for the contribution though.

[nines]

Some one ripped off another game.

[Seraphine]

i just love how he worded it xD

Kittie has a point, buffs galore and everyone can do a heck load of damages, while damage goes through the roof, the surviving factors don't keep up with it.

But in all, i do believe all hell broke lose with the implementation of the hideout buffer already so might as well give chances for everyone equally~

It certainly seems it'll be for the benefit of the community; if the point is token drain, i believe a smaller but constant drain like this can do it nicely.

Also yes, it seems all buffs from the hideout come at maximum level. i.e. ; Blessing-Increase Agility come on Lv 10, Assumptio-Impositio Manus-Adrenaline-Gloria on level 5 and so on.

Enlarging on the Toten idea, i think i might have something to add that might help;

There could be 4 types of said 'totens' each with a price a buffs available.

*Bronze Toten-cheapest, has is usefulness focused on buffs that help hunting.

Buffs granted-Blessing, Increase Agility, Wind Walker, Angelus and Magnificat.

Suggested Price- 1 Donation Token per hour on the inventory, 10 tokens for 12 hours.

*Silver Toten-a more offensive PvP-oriented bufingf toten.

Buffs granted-Same as Bronze and plus Attention Concentrate, Gloria, Impositio Manus, Sufragium, Weapon Perfection, Maximize Power, Overthrust, ASPD Potion and Loud Exclamation.

Suggesteed Price- 3 Donation tokens per hour on the inventory, 30 tokens for 12 hours.

*Golden Toten-a full buffing toten.

Buffs granted-Same as Silver and plus Melt Down, Kaite, Kaahi, Kaupe, Kaizel, Endure, Concentration, Aura Blade and True Sight.

Suggested Price- 5 Donation tokens per hour on the inventory, no discont for hours in bulk.

*Platinum Totem-toten of all buffs and then some more.

Buffs granted-Same as Golden and plus All stat food buffs.

Suggested Price- 7 Donation tokens per hour on the inventory.

Just an idea...

I'm not sure where to fit Assumptio...

That's a very interesting idea indeed.I think it has the potential to work out very well if it was implemented.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Seraphine

[Forum~]

Wow, Chris. You outdid yourself with this one. This one tops your already amazing suggestions pool. I completely agree with this. It's a win-win because it first serves to level the playing field between mid-tier players and the elite-veteran players. Second, it serves as a steady token drain. Thirdly, it applies to not only PvP but to farmers. I completely agree. I HOPE TO SEE THIS IMPLEMENTED IN-GAME.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Forum~

[Veggie&Mac]

Epic suggestion +1 Chris ♥

[Veracity]

I want to commend you for making such a well thought out, thorough suggestion. It's very impressive and I think you've made your point extremely well. I'm not against this at all and believe everything you're saying is legitimate, but personally, I'm dubious about buffs as a whole since I think Kittie raised a legitimate point.

Buffs can be extremely problematic, especially when they're available on such a wide scale. Doing something like this, as Forum~ said, would help to close the gap between "mid-tier players and the elite-veteran players." However, newer players, those who can't donate, and/or those who don't have rich friends that give them free handouts would have difficulty affording this, wouldn't they? This would make the buffs accessible to more players, yes, but it's going to open up an even wider gap between those with tokens and those without. Now it won't be only equipment, weapons, and amount of supplies that separates players but also the amount of buffs they have. For the people previously mentioned who can't afford the buffs, equipment, etc., it's going to make it much more difficult for them.

To them, wouldn't it be better to have only a small amount of players have it for a couple of weeks rather than everyone who is rich/has token/donates have it for unlimited amounts of time (yes, it's hourly, but if I have hundreds or thousands of tokens I'd have no trouble affording it for weeks or months consecutively...)? The token prices are reasonable, yes, but for a lot of people they're hard to obtain and take a long time. Are you going to spend them on buffs for a few hours or save up for gear? If they already have some gear, they'd have to do a lot of farming and hard work to be able to afford this to stand a chance in PvP against those who have potentially unlimited amounts of tokens.

That being said, I'm in no way against this suggestion, just trying to consider all aspects and implications of it.

[Xtopher]

I want to commend you for making such a well thought out, thorough suggestion. It's very impressive and I think you've made your point extremely well. I'm not against this at all and believe everything you're saying is legitimate, but personally, I'm dubious about buffs as a whole since I think Kittie raised a legitimate point.

Buffs can be extremely problematic, especially when they're available on such a wide scale. Doing something like this, as Forum~ said, would help to close the gap between "mid-tier players and the elite-veteran players." However, newer players, those who can't donate, and/or those who don't have rich friends that give them free handouts would have difficulty affording this, wouldn't they? This would make the buffs accessible to more players, yes, but it's going to open up an even wider gap between those with tokens and those without. Now it won't be only equipment, weapons, and amount of supplies that separates players but also the amount of buffs they have. For the people previously mentioned who can't afford the buffs, equipment, etc., it's going to make it much more difficult for them.

To them, wouldn't it be better to have only a small amount of players have it for a couple of weeks rather than everyone who is rich/has token/donates have it for unlimited amounts of time (yes, it's hourly, but if I have hundreds or thousands of tokens I'd have no trouble affording it for weeks or months consecutively...)? The token prices are reasonable, yes, but for a lot of people they're hard to obtain and take a long time. Are you going to spend them on buffs for a few hours or save up for gear? If they already have some gear, they'd have to do a lot of farming and hard work to be able to afford this to stand a chance in PvP against those who have potentially unlimited amounts of tokens.

That being said, I'm in no way against this suggestion, just trying to consider all aspects and implications of it.

Well, you guys could put something in that newbie box that new players get. Some sort of character bound buffer hall pass to let them use it a few times so they can level their characters up. Like I said it has farming and I suppose great leveling benefits. Brand new players fresh off the install are going to be behind, there's no way around that.

About spreading the gap, what Kittie said, maybe I wasn't clear... The gap already exists. The buffs are already here. If you're against buffs and afraid of extending the gap between health/redux and damage then you're against the guild buffer. I'm just trying to make it accessible to everyone and not just one elitist group. Whats more, for pvp purposes there is always dispel.

[Veracity]

I think you misunderstood what I said. The gap I'm talking about is the gap between those with tokens and those without. When you say "I'm just trying to make it accessible to everyone and not just one elitist group," it's not really to everyone, but those with enough tokens that can continuously afford it. Thus why I raised the concerns I did after my first few sentences.

Buffs can be extremely problematic, especially when they're available on such a wide scale. Doing something like this, as Forum~ said, would help to close the gap between "mid-tier players and the elite-veteran players." However, newer players, those who can't donate, and/or those who don't have rich friends that give them free handouts would have difficulty affording this, wouldn't they? This would make the buffs accessible to more players, yes, but it's going to open up an even wider gap between those with tokens and those without. Now it won't be only equipment, weapons, and amount of supplies that separates players but also the amount of buffs they have. For the people previously mentioned who can't afford the buffs, equipment, etc., it's going to make it much more difficult for them.

To them, wouldn't it be better to have only a small amount of players have it for a couple of weeks rather than everyone who is rich/has token/donates have it for unlimited amounts of time (yes, it's hourly, but if I have hundreds or thousands of tokens I'd have no trouble affording it for weeks or months consecutively...)? The token prices are reasonable, yes, but for a lot of people they're hard to obtain and take a long time. Are you going to spend them on buffs for a few hours or save up for gear? If they already have some gear, they'd have to do a lot of farming and hard work to be able to afford this to stand a chance in PvP against those who have potentially unlimited amounts of tokens.

That being said, I'm in no way against this suggestion, just trying to consider all aspects and implications of it.

I do like the idea of including a buffer hall pass for new players, though. But I don't feel like any of the things you've mentioned really address the concerns I brought up in the post. Yes, new players are bound to be behind... but continuing to widen the gap between those with tokens/those without will make it much more difficult for them to ever get up to speed. We're trying to work in the other direction.

[nines]

Lol ^ your anti elitest suggestion chris was an elitest suggestion xD. U fail sir.

And Believe me. If I had this thing I could buff so many fucking times and this server would rage the fk out lol.

[Xtopher]

I think you misunderstood what I said. The gap I'm talking about is the gap between those with tokens and those without. When you say "I'm just trying to make it accessible to everyone and not just one elitist group," it's not really to everyone, but those with enough tokens that can continuously afford it. Thus why I raised the concerns I did after my first few sentences.

I do like the idea of including a buffer hall pass for new players, though. But I don't feel like any of the things you've mentioned really address the concerns I brought up in the post. Yes, new players are bound to be behind... but continuing to widen the gap between those with tokens/those without will make it much more difficult for them to ever get up to speed. We're trying to work in the other direction.

Don't new players make money through farming? Well the buffer helps a lot with farming. They can start out farming normally, make some tokens then use some to increase their farming abilities which will help them make more overall money.

I don't know what else to tell you when you're question about people without any tokens. They gotta work to earn them. Not much is really given out for free around here...

[nines]

Its an hour long buff how will that help them farm much. mvps and mobs have low life and a forsaken dungeon suggestion was accepted so.....They're going to have no problem farming now.

[Meka Meka]

At the suggested rate of 5 tokens per hour, I think the price is fairly inconsequential when you put it up against the advantages of a full buffer NPC, even at minimized levels.

We're comparing this rate to the astronomical price of bidding for the Guild Hideout - amounts of tokens that a new player couldn't DREAM of acquiring (hell, it is a ridiculous price for anyone that doesn't have pools of extra tokens lying around). It's a luxury item for the elite.

I see the real advantage being used during WOE, and a guild could easily pool resources for each member to have access. Buffs are a time-limited advantage, that really shine in a time-limited reward based competition (aka, WOE), the only real goal being to acquire more valuable rewards and increase the competitiveness of a guild or individuals. If the advantage always stays with the guilds that already HAVE the advantage [so-to-speak] we're never going to shorten the gap between new competition (new players) and veterans, and you're only going to see the attrition rate of the server go up.

[My 2c]

[Kittie]

My comment was not about the widening gap between players being rich and poor. Hell, I want it to be known that I have no problem with the gap - everyone knows I've donated a couple grand here, and all my items were bought from the token shop, cards and forsaken equipment included. If I'm caught arguing FOR equality, then I must be drunk.

Anyways, I just wanted to clarify my post before. I was talking about how damage will get higher for just about everyone with enough tokens which is a lot of people. PVP damage and pace will increase so high, while player HP remains the same. The only thing that will happen is people will die quicker and duels will be shorter. Ill be sure to abuse it with a chain of buffed up AV spam or FAS spam.

The only reason it works with guild hideouts is because guilds don't invite everyone - only their friends, and everyone else is an enemy. Not everyone is running around doing high amounts of damage to each other.

Works out better for me if the npc goes by the rentable pass idea though, makes it cheaper in the long run since you just buy it when you log on and get unlimited use for that duration. :)

[Xtopher]

Its an hour long buff how will that help them farm much. mvps and mobs have low life and a forsaken dungeon suggestion was accepted so.....They're going to have no problem farming now.

I've never used to to farm but apparently its really useful. Ask Loli members about it... apparently they use it for that.

My comment was not about the widening gap between players being rich and poor. Hell, I want it to be known that I have no problem with the gap - everyone knows I've donated a couple grand here, and all my items were bought from the token shop, cards and forsaken equipment included. If I'm caught arguing FOR equality, then I must be drunk.

Anyways, I just wanted to clarify my post before. I was talking about how damage will get higher for just about everyone with enough tokens which is a lot of people. PVP damage and pace will increase so high, while player HP remains the same. The only thing that will happen is people will die quicker and duels will be shorter. Ill be sure to abuse it with a chain of buffed up AV spam or FAS spam.

The only reason it works with guild hideouts is because guilds don't invite everyone - only their friends, and everyone else is an enemy. Not everyone is running around doing high amounts of damage to each other.

Works out better for me if the npc goes by the rentable pass idea though, makes it cheaper in the long run since you just buy it when you log on and get unlimited use for that duration. :)

I know what you're saying Kittie. My response is that my suggestion wont widen any gaps. Those gaps already exist because the buffer is already in the game. People already have the buffs therefore the gap between damage and hp already exist. I just want to make it available for everyone if they wish to spend the tokens.

But, one thing you're forgetting is that almost all of the guild buffs can be dispelled. It is very easy to dispel. Also, the buffer not only gives you high offensive capabilities but also gives defensive benefits with the priest and linker buffs.

If you're worried about your hp then change your build. With buffs you'll do more damage anyway, get more hp.