Custom Item Suggestion

[nines]

If this suggestion gets accepted I smell a bunch of people rage quiting due to imbalance >> You may think the reductions are unbalanced but genesis put a lot of time into making it so the server is balanced. No class has extreme power over any other.

Like in the real world if you trade your armor out for just chain mail you'll move faster and have an advantage of using your strength easy. But if you keep your armor on you'll have muscle constriction making your attacks be weaker but you'll have the benefit of having your armor protecting you.

Having reductions is basically just being a tank class. And tanks are supposed to be able to tank a lot of damage. If the suggestion gets taken all we will have is a bunch of dps classes and everyone will just bitch about not having any option against a guy who puts out more dps than they do and the eventually just quit playing because of the imbalance.

Now onto your woe factor since the damage has been cut by 40% trying to kill someone takes forever even on my prof when im mind breaked in the regular time that I would kill 8 people with mind break on I've maybe killed two and then the rest will just gtb and even if you have a sniper or sinx or champ to go against the gtb guy guess what 40% less damage they can tank the damage even with a gtb on. Once reductions are added into this formula it is a little insane but even when I go skull aura, dev hat, frigg shield, sgw, gr detale. I have to put an agility belt on and sacrifice a str belt for a vit belt. So my attack is maybe at 1800? With thana my damage will be so low to the emp its basically trying to kill some one with a feather. And even then With the amount of people on the emp I still drop really fast. Want to know why? Because this is what most sinx use in the emp room on defense. They use edges!!! and guess what Clowns have there gay ass bows for coma chance and tarot coma chance also reducing attack damage. Guess what? Your also on a gospel so people who get str will dominate your ass even if you've got reductions on and then guess what? 0 atk then guess what? try to run no you don't you can't move because your stun locked in and the gospel has slowed your ass down more than a fat guy trying to run a mile.

Now please I would love to see an argument against this and ! since Chris asked for a pvper opinion which it seems you guys have ignored my opinion That I posted for every class try and add a response with that in there to. I want to see a fail retaliation please :).

[Sensation]

People solo too much in a game that's focussed around team play & effort.

But when one can solo a team, almost every single time, there's something wrong though.

[Xtopher]

If this suggestion gets accepted I smell a bunch of people rage quiting due to imbalance >> You may think the reductions are unbalanced but genesis put a lot of time into making it so the server is balanced. No class has extreme power over any other.

I really agree with you here nines. Shocking.... I know...

In pvp the reductions are fine but in woe the damage nerf pushes them overboard.... Like I said before: Is it possible to remove the damage nerfs during woe?

[HerLove]

If this suggestion gets accepted I smell a bunch of people rage quiting due to imbalance >> You may think the reductions are unbalanced but genesis put a lot of time into making it so the server is balanced. No class has extreme power over any other.

Like in the real world if you trade your armor out for just chain mail you'll move faster and have an advantage of using your strength easy. But if you keep your armor on you'll have muscle constriction making your attacks be weaker but you'll have the benefit of having your armor protecting you.

Having reductions is basically just being a tank class. And tanks are supposed to be able to tank a lot of damage. If the suggestion gets taken all we will have is a bunch of dps classes and everyone will just bitch about not having any option against a guy who puts out more dps than they do and the eventually just quit playing because of the imbalance.

Now onto your woe factor since the damage has been cut by 40% trying to kill someone takes forever even on my prof when im mind breaked in the regular time that I would kill 8 people with mind break on I've maybe killed two and then the rest will just gtb and even if you have a sniper or sinx or champ to go against the gtb guy guess what 40% less damage they can tank the damage even with a gtb on. Once reductions are added into this formula it is a little insane but even when I go skull aura, dev hat, frigg shield, sgw, gr detale. I have to put an agility belt on and sacrifice a str belt for a vit belt. So my attack is maybe at 1800? With thana my damage will be so low to the emp its basically trying to kill some one with a feather. And even then With the amount of people on the emp I still drop really fast. Want to know why? Because this is what most sinx use in the emp room on defense. They use edges!!! and guess what Clowns have there gay ass bows for coma chance and tarot coma chance also reducing attack damage. Guess what? Your also on a gospel so people who get str will dominate your ass even if you've got reductions on and then guess what? 0 atk then guess what? try to run no you don't you can't move because your stun locked in and the gospel has slowed your ass down more than a fat guy trying to run a mile.

Now please I would love to see an argument against this and ! since Chris asked for a pvper opinion which it seems you guys have ignored my opinion That I posted for every class try and add a response with that in there to. I want to see a fail retaliation please :).

Well first off I would like to say that these "tank" classes as you call them are not all tanking and loosing things.Take sniper for example they can wear full reductions and loose little to no damage while all damage done to them is tiny.With tao card their hp is automatically high even with a tiny amount of vit.Solution? coma them sure but then they can trap you they can arrow repel they are a ranged class that puts out just about the same damage with no side effects of wearing all reduction items.How is that fair to other classes in and out of woe/gvg? Take stalkers same thing as sniper but even worse.A stalker can outlast you and strip you and then you have 0 chance at all of surviving unless you can cloak and run fast somehow.Take clowns/gypsies, oh boy they again loose no damage by wearing reducts and can stand there while you do little to no dmg to them and tarrot you to death OR ds/av you to death.

Can all classes do this with reductions? Nope lets say a sinx does this he/she has to put a lot of agi to make up for the valk head gears aspd loss and has to wear a shield that halves his damage.Lord knight maybe?Nope a lord knight needs at least 3 kiels to spam spiral pierce well enough to kill and sticking to bowling bash or pierce just wont cut it.If he wears reduction items he looses the slots to do his damage as I showed chris today.Champion? lol! not even close their damage is so reduced playing the class is saddening sometimes when someone can tank asura with skolls on or reduce tss to 2k damage.I can go on and on but the point remains the same the reductions as they are now are simply too much and if they are toned down a little that would solve many balance issues.Classes that feel they do little damage will do more damage and classes that already do a lot of damage wont be able to tank as much.

Anyway I am still thinking of specific changes that can be made and I will post them later to see what everyone thinks.

[nines]

Snipers keep there damage on reducts and take no damage? Are you kidding me Im using skull ring dev hat and sbw and my damage drops massively and I loose the ability to fas. My damage drops 6k each hit from putting reducts on and ill just do 5k hits on auto attack and 10k each hit with double strafing. Idk how your saying loose little to no damage. For clowns they only get the hat but then you can just stone curse them. The only class that can make reduction combo gay is a clown with the bow. Thats the only gay thing

And what It looks like your doing now is just saying because these classes can use reducts properly and I can't they shouldn't be allowed to.

As I said before No class has extreme power over any other.

[HerLove]

I am saying some classes that have recently been upgraded due to the new customs are really unbalanced with the extra reductions.Snipers have 1 handed bows that do more damage than before and can wear a shield.No damage loss to them whereas a sinx who wears a shield has his dmg cut in half.That is just one example.Not all classes can use the reductions with such a great gain so if it were changed where they classes that can use them like that had less to gain then the classes that cannot will have a fighting chance.

[nines]

*( Going to defend with trans to see the major problem )*

[Genesis]

Going to clear something up. We are a PK server, not a PvP server like iRO is. Here are the damage outputs for WoE:

WoE:

Short ranged melee attacks (non skills): 80% of your damage is done. (20% reduction you could say)

Long range attacks (non skills): 80% of your damage is done. (20% reduction you could say)

Weapon skill damage: 60% of your damage is done. (40% reductions you could say)

Magic skill damage: 60% of your damage is done. (40% reductions you could say)

Misc skill damage: 60% of your damage is done. (40% reductions you could say)

PK:

Short ranged melee attacks (non skills): 80% of your damage is done. (20% reduction you could say)

Long range attacks (non skills): 70% of your damage is done. (30% reduction you could say)

Weapon skill damage: 60% of your damage is done. (40% reductions you could say)

Magic skill damage: 60% of your damage is done. (40% reductions you could say)

Misc skill damage: 60% of your damage is done. (40% reductions you could say)

We are a PK server, not a PvP server. Some of you will remember when we tried to move to a PvP status, it was chaos (e.i. Asura killing you no matter what you wore). If you are thinking we have iRO damage reductions you are dead wrong. PvP gives 100% damage, PK does not as you can see.

My Comments:

Now, I warn you, I am stating my opinion based on my experience watching WoE on this server for 3+ years and participating in WoE in the past. WoE, as it stands, is a breaker's paradise, castles are being broken constantly and with good reason. it has become increasingly difficult to defend because 1~3 people can tank a guild of 15~20 players. The main problem, is because of the reductions. Reductions were never meant to be this high. Yeah, if they go full reductions they can't do much damage, but you can attack, period. WoE isn't about who does the most damage, it's about who breaks it last. But let's imagine these "tankers" don't attack the emp for a second. If 1~3 people can keep an entire guild busy, what's to stop a few Assassin Crosses from sneaking in and taking the Emperium. This, from what I have seen in the last 4 WoEs, is what is happening. Granted it is a strategy, but a very anti-fun and boring one. Because you no longer need a large number of guild members to attack, it has caused the formation of several small/medium sized guilds. This is why the emps keeps breaking. It has become impossible for any guild to defend. It is no longer large guilds vs large guilds (which is what we want here), it's a bunch of people running in and breaking the emp. This has also caused alot of people to just not participate in WoE. I remember when with the same amount of people we have now, we use to get 450+ people on for WoE. That was when reductions weren't as bad as they are now. I think we should go back to that, however, I do not believe nerfing is the best way. Read my suggestion before for my input.

My Suggestion:

I would suggest that we add checks to items. Meaning, if you have a santa poring hat, and let's say other reduction items, you can't get past 70~75% reductions. This seems fair to me, and it was what was done when WoE was actually fun. I'm not saying we should reduce Valkyrie Weapons or anything else, simply add checks to prevent reductions from going past 70~75%. This is already in effect with the Deviling Hat.

[nines]

I'm not saying we should reduce Valkyrie Weapons or anything else, simply add checks to prevent reductions from going past 70~75%. This is already in effect with the Deviling Hat.

-Nod Nod- Agree.

Edited January 15, 2011 by nines

[HerLove]

That would be nice even though I am not sure how the reduction is calculated fully I could agree with the items being made to not go past a certain % no matter what that would solve it! Maybe a test of some sort can be done with it to see what is a reasonable % to stop at or something like that.

[Seraphine]

Yeah.... i 100% agree with what genesis stated Woe is supposed to be large guilds vs large guilds 70%-75% reductions is plenty enough to tank a whole lot of damage.

[Masahiro]

Genesis, thumbs up.

good response, you understand well what we're saying and we have faith that you guys will adjust accordingly

your idea of Woe and pvp is synonymous with our own and once we have that common understanding, im sure this issue will be resolved in a way everyone is happy.

Godspeed

it is just my personal opinion 60%-65% reduction should be the maxed however. i still think that is doable and usable strategically.

once paladins etc can still do their duty efficiently etc then yes.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Masahiro

[Phenomenon]

60%-65% reduction should be the maxed however.

60% is just a Frigg's King Shield with an Usakoring Shield. Are we not aware of the reductions we ALREADY use? I say 80% as a max is fair. That's a shield+a reduction hat OR wing+a combat knife(which renders you incapable of dealing damage). No classes really abuses reductions besides Stalkers, and that's because of the Soaring Bird. I find this all very ridiculous. I see as much reductions being abused during WoE as I see people playing Soul Gladiator.

[Kittie]

I'm going to go on an FAS frenzy when this happens. Fun fun.

[Masahiro]

60% is just a Frigg's King Shield with an Usakoring Shield. Are we not aware of the reductions we ALREADY use? I say 80% as a max is fair. That's a shield+a reduction hat OR wing+a combat knife(which renders you incapable of dealing damage). No classes really abuses reductions besides Stalkers, and that's because of the Soaring Bird. I find this all very ridiculous. I see as much reductions being abused during WoE as I see people playing Soul Gladiator.

true my bad lol forgot about that hahah

then the 70-75%

Lol i play star glad (said for the lulz)

but the reduction of shield, sgw and hat should not surpass 70-75%, combat knife in replace of 1 of the others is your choice

no1 asked u to wear combat knife when u didnt need too

because without combat knife as pointed out before a million classes still retain their max pvp strenght

e.g snipers, clowns and stalkersss

what does a reduct hat take away from them? maya P? lol f.soldier? only because its 1 slotted, there no sacrifice anywhere else, people stat with being dec agi in mind fairly often and as such still have extra stats to agi etc, dex adds aspd and instacast.

so wearing such things as wings and dev hat barely slow you down if you've accommodated for it

combine this with the only damage influencing factor the weapon and yeah, your full strength and a walking tank(why would you swap out your fbh shoes or w/e so dont mention it).

sgws and other wings are already factored into the equation because people wear things other than rucsacs like scarves etc

if i wanted to with the current gear i can go full reduct, put on 100 PD and have insane flee and walk around and be immortal i have the knowledge and the current gear provides the means..THAT potential is OP.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Masahiro

[Cirrus]

I'm going to go on an FAS frenzy when this happens. Fun fun.

Yeah, they can't even withstand what I give them already. Total wipe-out with the chars I use, and my chars don't even have reducts higher than Usakoring + F.Shield. FUN. Edited January 15, 2011 by Cirrus

[HerLove]

I withstand it just fine and I dont use any reducts besides shield.

[Masahiro]

I withstand it just fine and I dont use any reducts besides shield.

same for me for the most, cept i die a lot more LOL

but the point is, there's life after reducts people

its called skill in pvp

[Shadi]

re we not aware of the reductions we ALREADY use? I say 80% as a max is fair. That's a shield+a reduction hat OR wing+a combat knife(which renders you incapable of dealing damage). No classes really abuses reductions besides Stalkers, and that's because of the Soaring Bird. I find this all very ridiculous. I see as much reductions being abused during WoE as I see people playing Soul Gladiator.

I'll have to agree with this. Lowering the reduction rates will only boost up the classes that already do massive damage and rend the ones that are supposed to be able to take more damage useless. If I take priest for example, their damage output is rediculously low as it is, they are purely based on survivability, in most cases reductions. While sinx and snipers are 'mainly' based on damage output and can use reductions when needed . Which of these classes would benefit more from reducing the reduction rate ? Sinx and sniper. My point being is that by lowering these reduction rates we once again give the DPS characters an advantage compared to the support/survivability characters and in my opinion the dps characters have more than enough advantages already.

Basically , I pretty much agree with everything Nine's said in this topic. :excl:

[HerLove]

I'll have to agree with this. Lowering the reduction rates will only boost up the classes that already do massive damage and rend the ones that are supposed to be able to take more damage useless. If I take priest for example, their damage output is rediculously low as it is, they are purely based on survivability, in most cases reductions. While sinx and snipers are 'mainly' based on damage output and can use reductions when needed . Which of these classes would benefit more from reducing the reduction rate ? Sinx and sniper. My point being is that by lowering these reduction rates we once again give the DPS characters an advantage compared to the support/survivability characters and in my opinion the dps characters have more than enough advantages already.

Basically , I pretty much agree with everything Nine's said in this topic. :excl:

First off every class has a viable pvp spec even priest.If you take a look around there are some priests who go battle mode and wear ifrit rings and do quite well.Every class has a way to pvp and with the valk weapons that came even more out into play so changing the reduction rate wont affect this at all.It simply means people will actually have to put some effort into playing better instead of simply wearing a set of gear that compensates for 95% of damage

[nines]

Eh Juan brought it up to me forgot that frigg shield was 60% >< Im going to have to agree on 80% also. But what I want to know is what is the reduction based off of ? Is it based off of can't go pass this amount of reduction from Demi Humans or Medium Sized Monsters or what? Will we be allowed to use rays or will they become useless? Will my skull ring become useless since its based off of reduction of elements and 7% neutral would be kind of lame for a rare ass thing to get super nerfed.

It should be 80% max reduction from Players and you can stack side reductions also.

[jorgesilvera]

Eh Juan brought it up to me forgot that frigg shield was 60% >< Im going to have to agree on 80% also. But what I want to know is what is the reduction based off of ? Is it based off of can't go pass this amount of reduction from Demi Humans or Medium Sized Monsters or what? Will we be allowed to use rays or will they become useless? Will my skull ring become useless since its based off of reduction of elements and 7% neutral would be kind of lame for a rare ass thing to get super nerfed.

It should be 80% max reduction from Players and you can stack side reductions also.

Element reduction is after Race reduction.

What Mashairo and Genesis said is 100% true. I agree

Since latly we are reaching the 100% involuntary the woe is vased now on rambo guild (one man breaking and do not say that is false cuz happen) that lower the server population and attaction to newbys, so this is priority to be accepted.

I suggest this: (personal opinion)

Santa and Dev hat: 5% [2]

Sacred Wings: stay equal

Combat Knife: 0% reducts

Usakoring Card: equal

Fshield and Felite Shield:Equal

Frigg Shield: Equal

We do not have side reduction right so np (correct me if I am wrong)

Two haned item that does reduction: Stay Equal

Elemental Reductive Items since the calculation show it after the Race Reduction: Equal.

Stalker Bow:Dunno descirpt XD

Edited January 16, 2011 by jorgesilvera

[Cirrus]

One man breakers don't happen anymore against defending guilds. Go WoE and attack solo, as in alone, a defended castle. It happens because a guild is not defending that particular castle, problem? Too little people, too many choices. And damn, someone lied. And practice what you preach, please.

80% max is fine, actually good, and I know how to do it. The problem is not elemental or size reductions, reductions have a diminished stack unlike attack modifiers. More types of reductions = less overall reductions.

The problem is additive stacking of the same reduction modifier, in our case, demi-human.

Since everyone is going for a max of 80 (and this is with a Combat Knife, i.e. very little offensive capabilities, not all classes can use the Combat Knife too, especially not the more defensive classes like Priest, and other classes rely on weapons to actually do damage) all it takes is a couple of additional scripts on Sacred Wings, Fluffy Wings, and Santa Poring/Deviling Hats or Combat Knife itself. Something along the lines of:

Sacred/Fluffy Wings additional code:

{ if(isequipped(SantaPoringItemID)) { bonus2 bSubRace,RC_DemiHuman,-10; }
{ if(isequipped(DevilingHatItemID)) { bonus2 bSubRace,RC_DemiHuman,-10; }

EDIT: For the above, it makes more sense to keep the higher reductions, in turn, if you still stack Frigg's King/Usako/Devil or Santa Poring/Sacred or Fluffies with a total of 80%.

In theory, this would nullify Santa Poring/Deviling Hats' +15% DemiHuman reduction. You can either have 15% reductions on your headgear, or 10% (Sacred), but never both. So if you're on Santa Poring/Deviling Hats, Frigg's King Shield with Usakoring card, you get a total of 75%. If you're on Sacred/Fluffy Wings, you get a total of 70%.

Now on to the remaining 5/10% to get to 80%.

Santa Poring/Deviling Hats additional code:

{ if(isequipped(CombatKnifeItemID)) { bonus2 bSubRace,RC_DemiHuman,-5; }

This would reduce the reduction bonus of Combat Knife (which is 10%) to just 5%. So if you're wearing Santa Poring/Deviling Hat, you'll only get a total of 80%.

-OR-

Combat Knife additional code:

{ if(isequipped(SantaPoringItemID)) { bonus2 bSubRace,RC_DemiHuman,-5; }
{ if(isequipped(DevilingHatItemID)) { bonus2 bSubRace,RC_DemiHuman,-5; }

This would not affect you wearing a Sacred/Fluffy Wing at all, only when when you are wearing a Santa Poring/Deviling Hat.

Maths?

Frigg's King Shield (25) + Usakoring card (35) + Sacred/Fluffy Wing (10) + Combat Knife (10) = 80.

Frigg's King Shield (25) + Usakoring card (35) + Santa Poring/Deviling Hat (15) + Combat Knife (10-5) = 80.

Frigg's King Shield (25) + Usakoring card (35) + Sacred/Fluffy Wing (10) + Santa Poring/Deviling Hat (15-10) + Combat Knife (10-5) = 80.

You get even less reductions if you try to stack Santa Poring Deviling Hat with Sacreds/Fluffies. That is, if these codes do actually play out right.

Basically, you sacrifice the use of the F.Set (stat bonuses and the actually very good ASPD bonus) and if you want offensive capabilities with 75% reductions, use the advantage of an F.Set with offensive capabilities with a max of 70% reductions, throw out almost all offensive capabilities and only have a total of 80% reductions whenever. That's a practical maximum of 75% reductions.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Cirrus

[Masahiro]

Sacred/Fluffy Wings additional code:

{ if(isequipped(SantaPoringItemID)) { bonus2 bSubRace,RC_DemiHuman,-15; }
{ if(isequipped(DevilingHatItemID)) { bonus2 bSubRace,RC_DemiHuman,-15; }

In theory, this would nullify Santa Poring/Deviling Hats' +15% DemiHuman reduction. You can either have 15% reductions on your headgear, or 10% (Sacred), but never both. So if you're on Santa Poring/Deviling Hats, Frigg's King Shield with Usakoring card, you get a total of 75%. If you're on Sacred/Fluffy Wings, you get a total of 70%.

Now on to the remaining 5/10% to get to 80%.

Santa Poring/Deviling Hats additional code:

{ if(isequipped(CombatKnifeItemID)) { bonus2 bSubRace,RC_DemiHuman,-5; }

This would reduce the reduction bonus of Combat Knife (which is 10%) to just 5%. So if you're wearing Santa Poring/Deviling Hat, you'll only get a total of 80%.

-OR-

Combat Knife additional code:

{ if(isequipped(SantaPoringItemID)) { bonus2 bSubRace,RC_DemiHuman,-5; }
{ if(isequipped(DevilingHatItemID)) { bonus2 bSubRace,RC_DemiHuman,-5; }

This would not affect you wearing a Sacred/Fluffy Wing at all, only when when you are wearing a Santa Poring/Deviling Hat.

Maths?

Frigg's King Shield (25) + Usakoring card (35) + Sacred/Fluffy Wing (10) + Combat Knife (10) = 80.

Frigg's King Shield (25) + Usakoring card (35) + Santa Poring/Deviling Hat (15) + Combat Knife (10-5) = 80.

Frigg's King Shield (25) + Usakoring card (35) + Sacred/Fluffy Wing (10) + Santa Poring/Deviling Hat (15-15) + Combat Knife (10-5) = 75.

You get even less reductions if you try to stack Santa Poring Deviling Hat with Sacreds/Fluffies. That is, if these codes do actually play out right.

Basically, you sacrifice the use of the F.Set (stat bonuses and the actually very good ASPD bonus) and if you want offensive capabilities with 75% reductions, use the advantage of an F.Set with offensive capabilities with a max of 70% reductions, throw out almost all offensive capabilities and only have a total of 80% reductions whenever. That's a practical maximum of 75% reductions.

i think everything you said up to the remaining 5-10% is golden, its always been kinda harsh to make Dev hat and the lot give more reduction worth than sacreds, then again dev hat would replace your Gvh or f.helm so i still agree here.

the existance / added bonus of the combat knife should be erradicated entirely as others have pointed out before not everyone can equip it, so the classes we're complaining about that are ALREADY getting a boost from the reducts i.e the stalkers, snipers, clowns etc etc should not still have a reduct advantage over everyone else (most noticable the priest as someone mentioned above, which on that point, priest kill VERY well if you know what your doing)

i still maintain that 75% reduct max is fair, and that it is a manageable amount to be defensive with while still not maintaining an abused status.

and the friggs shield should also remain better than the f.shield due to its difficult questing to acquire. though the actual f.shield should not be nurfed from its current state, the others surrounding it should be adjusted accordingly.

at least we're all on the same page for change, the debate is for the Gms now. Good work Cirr with the above post.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Masahiro

[Cirrus]

For the Combat Knife, I just maintained that they be able to be used to full effect by those newer people who do not have Deviling/Santa Poring Hat and/or Sacreds/Fluffies. Hence without the other reductions, 10% still, and the script being capped at 80% whenever you try to stack more reductions with it.