Whitesmith Performance

[Weezing]

Ok, today I wanted to play Ws cz of the new Hat that got released gives about 40% More

damage to CT, so I asked chris to lend me his Oriental Sword to test how Ws performs, and I

finded out that both effects are or bad scripted or doesn't stacks well. Here are some proof:

As u can see both weapons have the same cards, so here are the damage outputs.

As u can see damage only increases about 2k.

Here it increases 1.6k.

Overall the total increase from Ws Axe and F Helm to Black Sword and Angel of Ghost is about 5k~6k,

which is a lil more than 25% when it was supposed to be 70% more damage, so I have 3 Ideas to

increase CT damage:

1.- Increase Cart Weight on [ Whitesmisth Class ].

2.- Increase Atroce Cards effect to something like 300 ~ 400 for [ Whitesmith Class ].

3.- Or Increase the % of M Forgers/Halloween Hats/Ws Black Oriental Sword.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Weezing

[jorgesilvera]

Agree with 1 , 2 and 3,3.

But in 1 and 3,3 how much increase?

Edited November 21, 2010 by jorgesilvera

[Weezing]

I'm thinking something about 12,000 Cart Weight for 1, %50 for M Forgers, 40% for Ws Black Oriental Sword, 50% for Angel of Ghost for 3. This being about 40% more CT Damage on equips and 4k more weight doing something like +90% Damage on CT overall.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Weezing

[jorgesilvera]

I'm thinking something about 12,000 Cart Weight for 1, %50 for M Forgers, 40% for Ws Black Oriental Sword, 50% for Angel of Ghost for 3. This being about 40% more CT Damage on equips and 4k more weight doing something like +90% Damage on CT overall.

Fine 1, 2, 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3

[Xtopher]

I disagree with 1 but agree with 2 and 3.

Obviously 2 and 3 because a true damage boost needs to happen.

Against 1 because increasing weight capacity helps make full reduction Creators even more difficult to kill because they can hold so many yggs. It's practically giving them LMS events.

He was testing with my weapon, which I have tested as well... and to be honest the whitesmith class a long with the whitesmith weapon are very underpowered in caparison to their class/weapon counterparts.

[Rune]

i'll have to agree with Xtopher, WhiteSmiths still have a very long way to go in order to become a practical solid class able to hold its own(pvp) and help allies(woe).

It'd be amazing if only Whitesmiths could have the weight boost on their cart. But as he said, Creators shouldn't be benefitted like this at all; they also suffer from being underpowered, but this boost to them would just accentuate their annoyance as slaves, not make them more viable for maining.

As such, i agree with both 2(i would like to say the bonus on atroce cards ONLY for merchant classes could be +1000 even, whitesmiths been suffering from underpower for a while and no changes seen to fix it...try something drastic like this number and see if that works!) and 3(increasing or at least letting them stack fully), but unfortunatelly, i'll have to disagree with 1.

[Weezing]

I kinda get what u mean with the number 1, and yah it would be definetely abused by fcp slaves, so I think we can discard number 1 or see if the weight limit increase could only affect Ws. I highly think that atroce should be much higher than 100 considering that +100 attack is nothing compared to other class +20% damage cards, and btw on the +300~350 attack I marked that it should only work for ws, cz creators can use Tgens for mammo anyway so it would be useless atleast on my opinion, and Sinx could use the attack boost to use Soul Breaker efectively, which I certainly think they don't need another skill under their sleeve.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Weezing

[Weezing]

Sorry about doble post, thought guys give your opinions out.

[Shadi]

+1, Definitely +1 on these suggestions. I've been waiting several months for a proper WS boost. The new weapon and halloween headgear was an okay start. But WS still has a long way to go to be on par with the other classes. After my WS suggestion got accepted with the promise the real WS weapon still had to be released I rested my case for quite a while. However at this moment I would very much prefer a boost on the current WS weapon instead on another new weapon. I agree with all 3 suggestions given, including the weight increase on cart as I have suggested that before as well. It is true creators would be able to carry more as well and I can understand people see this as a problem..But do keep in mind the merchant class is supposed to be able to carry way more than any other classes, and that advantage was pretty much taken when every class got the increase weight limit on their weapon.

1.- Increase Cart Weight on [ Whitesmisth Class ]. Agreed.

2.- Increase Atroce Cards effect to something like 300 ~ 400 for [ Whitesmith Class ]. Agreed.

3.- Increase the % of M Forgers/Halloween Hats/Ws Black Oriental Sword. Agreed.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Shadi

[Xtopher]

While it's true that the design of the merchant class branch was built around holding more than other players the fact is that in real gravity servers where the class was designed they do not have the reduction capabilities that our server has, nor is it as easy to make glistening coats, nor is it easy for them to collect hundreds of YGGs. I won't even go into the huge differences in stats/hp.

My point is that you can't say that the class was designed to hold more and therefore it's ok to give the class branch this boost. Our server is VERY different from the original design of the game and thus we have to boost/nerf things accordingly.

I'm still in favor of 2 and 3 though.

[supream]

dont think its possible to increase cart weight for only ws class, since it was a 1st job skill, and since the skill its self only increase walking speed.

[Weezing]

I don't know if it do able or not, that's why I have it strikethrough, Guys give ur opinions out.

[HealHard]

You should make proper calculations then. i can agree on 2 and 3 but i suppose increasing all those things at once means very OP CT. Please, leave here some formulas so we can see the total damage from the skill. It should be less damage then FAS cus its aspd based.

[Xtopher]

Why should it do less damage than FAS? Are you stating that meaning that it should not exceed FAS because that would be too powerful?

If that's the case I disagree. Snipers have tons of other positive attributes that Smiths do not have. CT damage exceeding FAS damage is not a problem IMO.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Xtopher

[HealHard]

Why should it do less damage than FAS? Are you stating that meaning that it should not exceed FAS because that would be too powerful?

If that's the case I disagree. Snipers have tons of other positive attributes that Smithes do not have. CT damage exceeding FAS damage is not a problem IMO.

I say that you can spam CT ALOT faster then FAS cus u need no kiels for that even. Thats why damage should be reasonable. i took FAS just to compare, cus i believe its damage with new bow is really balanced out.

[Xtopher]

I'm fine with it doing more than FAS.

Benefits of FAS:

LONG range

Many elements

AOE

Based on Dex so HIT is never an issue.

Not Reflectable

Benefits of CT:

Not Reflectable

No Kiels required

Could potentially break armor if shattering strike is on (if no FCP on target).

Clearly the benefits of FAS far outweigh CT. It's reasonable for CT to do more damage.

[Shadi]

CT can't break. Not with meltdown not with WS card. Only ws normal hits /mamo/cart revo will break, the CT itself cant break(even while meltdown is activated).

Next to WS's low damage output their HP is also one of the worst in the entire game due to all the tao boosts etc. So at the moment they are squishy(low hp easy to kill) and have a low damage output. Hence why I also see no reason why CT shouldn't exceed FA damage. Snipers are ranged, also have a 1 handed weapon now , have more HP and do more damage. So boosting CT above FA damage would only balance things more.

[HealHard]

Give us the formula for final CT damage and lets simply count DPS with pro player spam rate (lets ask Juan to test. Hes one of the best spammers around). It should be kept at reasonable values.

Its just my personal opinion that if it does more dmg then FAS then WS spam will become unyggable.

[Weezing]

I actually think that CT damage should be higher than FAS, with the formulas I gived (if the formula stack well) should do around 45k CT on shield which is pretty reasonable, why?, cz that way you could really do a decent damage and actually kill, other thing that is pretty annoying while playing Ws is that Dec Agi and dispell makes u Unnable to use your main offensive skill, thing that doesn't happens with any other skill, beside that FAS is a long range attack meaning that if ur not facing a dex class, u can just speed pot hit & run, thing that ws can't even think of doing, like chris said too ranged attacks give u a wide spread variety of elements to use and wait is an AoE skill too and being unyggable?, most people have above 200k hp which means u will need to atleast do 5 CT's to kill, other thing u can't spam more than 1 per second which clearly leaves a nice time to ygg spam.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Weezing

[Forum~]

I actually think that CT damage should be higher than FAS, with the formulas I gived (if the formula stack well) should do around 45k CT on shield which is pretty reasonable, why?, cz that way you could really do a decent damage and actually kill, other thing that is pretty annoying while playing Ws is that Dec Agi and dispell makes u Unnable to use your main offensive skill, thing that doesn't happens with any other skill, beside that FAS is a long range attack meaning that if ur not facing a dex class, u can just speed pot hit & run, thing that ws can't even think of doing, like chris said too ranged attacks give u a wide spread variety of elements to use and wait is an AoE skill too and being unyggable?, most people have above 200k hp which means u will need to atleast do 5 CT's to kill, other thing u can't spam more than 1 per second which clearly leaves a nice time to ygg spam.

wtf u on crack. i can spam like 3 cts in a second. have you ever seen juan play ws? 45k, da fok.

o i know, lets continue to add reducts to this server and increasing every classes damage. that sure is n00b/pvp-balance friendly.

i'm not against buffing ws though. ws was the first real pvp class i played on this server.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Forum~

[Shadi]

wtf u on crack. i can spam like 3 cts in a second. have you ever seen juan play ws? 45k, da fok.

No difference with FAS except for the fact that FAS is also ranged and splash and has elemental advantages and doesn't cost zeny and doesn't have a required skill to be able to use it. So I see no reason how this would be "OP" in any way.

o i know, lets continue to add reducts to this server and increasing every classes damage. that sure is n00b/pvp-balance friendly.

Got any suggestions for WS then ? I mean all their other skills were changed to useless (Due to.. FCP overflow, No stun with hammerfall, No perma stun with CT, everyone got weight increase, ) Almost ALL their advantages were taken and all their disadvantages stayed. If you disagree with a damage boost so much then come up with something else that could help WS.

[Weezing]

Once again people with loads of gears can make almost any class good, and btw 45k isn't that much, compared to all the frailty that ws presents, being for example having just one main offensive skill, they don't have ranged skills, their main offensive skill needs another skill to be used, no advantage on the weight limit thing as said, and his hp sux if u don't have the Ws BOS, (and even if u do u will reach something like 210k hp), this is ofc ygg spamable and aswell easy to reduce or even nullify it (Thanatos Maero and Dec Agi on champs), so I see no way of how this could be OP.

[Xtopher]

Even the most well equiped and skilled players can't really main Whitesmiths at the moment. Juan has been used as an example, and I agree hes a great pvper but even he would be forced to use different characters in pvp after a bit. I honestly see no possible way for WS to kill some characters other than to coma them, and even then they would have to get lucky. Whitesmiths just aren't effective enough... no matter how fast you can spam your damage output is too slow and your hp is too low to tank for too long.

As for suggestions besides boosting hp/damage~

Whitesmiths could be given the following:

Endure to tank long range attackers and avoid long range stun-lock.

A higher armor/weapon breaking chance.

Increased duration of buffs or chances at auto casting buffs (Example: 50% chance of auto casting Cart Boost when hit)

The skill Throw Tomahawk could have it's damage modified to suit our server and given to those who are using the Oriental Sword.

[Veracity]

We'll definitely take these suggestions into consideration when developing any WS weapons for future Valkyrie expansions. We're going to discuss possibly boosting the effect of the WS oriental sword and/or buffing the effects of the Atroce and Master Forger cards now as well. Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed suggestion!

- Accepted -