sessions Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 As it is well known there is no way to make the classes balance but you can even it up a bit. 1. Hp. Almost every class except Assassin Cross, Lord Knight, Paladin, and Champion could use much more health. I don't think that a quick fix of adding 10% more hp to all their weapons is what we need, because that amount of hp is almost worthless. And people don't always use their elite weapons 24/7 anyway, because many people use other weapons besides their certain elite weapons. Instead I think we should actually change the hp modifier to raise these classes' base hp. I do not think they should be raised too much because that is an advantage Assassin Cross, LK, and pally should have, but enough that we can actually survive a semi-full asura without having to turn to more than gr, and devilings to survive. 2. Preserve. I know this has been addressed multiple times but since no action has been made here it is again, Preserve should not be dispelled. Without their skill Stalkers are just about as worthless as when someone fcp's against them. Stalkers are already screwed over by fcp so I see no reason as to why this can't be done. 3. Allow Stalkers to copy Transcendent skills. This goes along with my last statement there is no reason not to, and it would give them a little bit more power, but nothing too overpowering as FCP vs. Stalker, FCP always wins. Also Acid Demonstration, which most people think would be overpowered on a stalker, really wouldn't be. Since if you used AD and ghost arrow Double Strafe to get good damage for either you would have to sacrifice more and more vit to achieve decent damage with both. Once again there is no good reason not to, and it would give Stalkers more variety and make them slightly more powerful. 4. Snipers. (and bow using classes in general) Bows should be given a 30-40% reduction (thats up to you to argue) to somewhat give them a chance of survival. AND long range stripping needs to come back. I'm not saying there aren't good snipers, but most are well-geared with, most likely a Thanatos. Since the majority of people don't have a Thanatos they need something to give them a chance. I think thats all for now, I'll edit it if I see something to add.
Zombee Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 As it is well known there is no way to make the classes balance but you can even it up a bit. 1. Hp. Almost every class except Assassin Cross, Lord Knight, Paladin, and Champion could use much more health. I don't think that a quick fix of adding 10% more hp to all their weapons is what we need, because that amount of hp is almost worthless. And people don't always use their elite weapons 24/7 anyway, because many people use other weapons besides their certain elite weapons. Instead I think we should actually change the hp modifier to raise these classes' base hp. I do not think they should be raised too much because that is an advantage Assassin Cross, LK, and pally should have, but enough that we can actually survive a semi-full asura without having to turn to more than gr, and devilings to survive. 2. Preserve. I know this has been addressed multiple times but since no action has been made here it is again, Preserve should not be dispelled. Without their skill Stalkers are just about as worthless as when someone fcp's against them. Stalkers are already screwed over by fcp so I see no reason as to why this can't be done. 3. Allow Stalkers to copy Transcendent skills. This goes along with my last statement there is no reason not to, and it would give them a little bit more power, but nothing too overpowering as FCP vs. Stalker, FCP always wins. Also Acid Demonstration, which most people think would be overpowered on a stalker, really wouldn't be. Since if you used AD and ghost arrow Double Strafe to get good damage for either you would have to sacrifice more and more vit to achieve decent damage with both. Once again there is no good reason not to, and it would give Stalkers more variety and make them slightly more powerful. 4. Snipers. (and bow using classes in general) Bows should be given a 30-40% reduction (thats up to you to argue) to somewhat give them a chance of survival. AND long range stripping needs to come back. I'm not saying there aren't good snipers, but most are well-geared with, most likely a Thanatos. Since the majority of people don't have a Thanatos they need something to give them a chance. I think thats all for now, I'll edit it if I see something to add. 1. No. 2. Soul Link. 3. Lolno. 4. Uhhh, no. Snipers don't need damage reduction. L2P the class before suggesting something so stupid. L2Trap, L2 switch between shield and bow when needed.
Adum* Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 I'm fine with my sniper's HP. :3 ...use their actual skills? I don't know, I'm not familiar with stalkers. Stalkers can copy soul breaker right?o.o Small reducts would be nice and also I want to try that long range stripping. For the snipers, you can just arrow repel (I suck at using traps...but I'll try to learn :3).
Zombee Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 I'm fine with my sniper's HP. :3 ...use their actual skills? I don't know, I'm not familiar with stalkers. Stalkers can copy soul breaker right?o.o Small reducts would be nice and also I want to try that long range stripping. For the snipers, you can just arrow repel (I suck at using traps...but I'll try to learn :3). Exactly. My sniper only has 220k but he survives fairly well. He's talking about preserve, it copies skills. He's whining because it can be dispelled. Too bad he didn't experiment with Soul Link, to find out it makes you run faster whilst in stealth, and prevents you from being dispelled. No. You're technically asking for a one handed bow, how stupid is that? And arrow repel is 'decent'.
sessions Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Posted October 30, 2009 Instead of saying flat out no give some input. And the point with the dispel is to not have to rely on being linked all the time because theres more to pvp then just for_fild, you guys have obviously never seriously played Stalker and realized that no preserve is like no edp on an Assassin Cross.
Anarii Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) For preserve.. I agree. as it was before, it should be now. Edited October 30, 2009 by Anarii
Apo Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 Zombee sure is good for flaming, but i agree for bow reduction, more like 20~25% they may not have a shielf but thir dmg is high enough to take an enemy down quick when well geared and trapiing, but i with preserve as link already allow you this option and copying trans skills would give too many advantages to stalkers especially skills like Acid Demonstration and soul breaker which are uneresitmated skills but deadly and HP boost i dunno, maybe mage classes but thats it.
Zombee Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 Instead of saying flat out no give some input. And the point with the dispel is to not have to rely on being linked all the time because theres more to pvp then just for_fild, you guys have obviously never seriously played Stalker and realized that no preserve is like no edp on an Assassin Cross. Actually, I have played stalker. Sure, there's more to pvp than just going to for_fild. But you can get SL before entering PvP Rooms, and WoE too. As well as have some active SLers. So what are you trying to get to? There's a reason Gravity made it so you could dispel Preserve. And if you don't like being dispelled, L2Hybrid. There's more to Stalkers than spamming one skill. Double strafe, ever heard of it? It's in your skill tree.
Adum* Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 I don't really see any stalkers using their skills, they're more like those they copied, then strip and chasewalk/hide.
Zombee Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 I don't really see any stalkers using their skills, they're more like those they copied, then strip and chasewalk/hide. Exactly. If he's as "serious" as he says he is at playing stalker, don't you think he would use more than the skill he copied?
Adum* Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) Exactly. If he's as "serious" as he says he is at playing stalker, don't you think he would use more than the skill he copied? I don't know, I haven't really tried using stalker. Just thought of something, they can use the skill Intimidate when they're being gang right?o.o(I know you can do it in for_fild01, but I don't know about pvp...or woe...) Edited October 30, 2009 by cyaNiDe*
Zombee Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 I don't know, I haven't really tried using stalker. Just thought of something, they can use the skill Intimidate when they're being gang right?o.o(I know you can do it in for_fild01, but I don't know about pvp...or woe...) No, they have mapflags to prevent that.
Adum* Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 No, they have mapflags to prevent that. Oh, well anyway, I still have to try stalker. :3 After I'm done with my sniper.
L2Aim Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 Copying transcendent skills wouldn't be a problem, soul breaker isn't that effective and stalkers don't have the weight capacity that the merchant class has to use Acid Demonstration effectively. Plus stalkers are a good class, but Backstab is fairly useless, sightless raid too (damage is quite bad & status alignment doesn't apply with HR stats), Double Strafing is 'ok' but it'll not allow enough damage output to kill players, Intimidate's damage also isn't something to use in a PvP environment. So as you can see, stalkers are indeed quite limited to the skills they copied, of course they have quite decent escape mechanisms such as hide/stalk & chasewalk and a very 'overpowered' disabling skills called full strip. Yet there are too much Chemical Protection scrolls & FCP slaves around to use that to gain the advantage. Preserve is quite fine the way it is, the dispel rate for the offensive classes isn't. And a small reduction on bows indeed is welcome. So all please come with some valid statements before bashing the suggestion, half of them seem LR based and clearly this server isn't LR.
Zombee Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 Copying transcendent skills wouldn't be a problem, soul breaker isn't that effective and stalkers don't have the weight capacity that the merchant class has to use Acid Demonstration effectively. Plus stalkers are a good class, but Backstab is fairly useless, sightless raid too (damage is quite bad & status alignment doesn't apply with HR stats), Double Strafing is 'ok' but it'll not allow enough damage output to kill players, Intimidate's damage also isn't something to use in a PvP environment. So as you can see, stalkers are indeed quite limited to the skills they copied, of course they have quite decent escape mechanisms such as hide/stalk & chasewalk and a very 'overpowered' disabling skills called full strip. Yet there are too much Chemical Protection scrolls & FCP slaves around to use that to gain the advantage. Preserve is quite fine the way it is, the dispel rate for the offensive classes isn't. And a small reduction on bows indeed is welcome. So all please come with some valid statements before bashing the suggestion, half of them seem LR based and clearly this server isn't LR. Acid Demo items weigh 1, so why would they need a high weight capacity? The skills consumed by preserve make your stalker more efficient. Nowadays it seems that all stalkers are about is spamming the one skill they copy. Which would be Lightning spear of ice. Like I said, an undispellable stalker would cross the line between balance somewhere. What if they opposing enemies FP ran out, and his only chance of killing the int based stalker was to dispel him and give him some other skill in his tree? Think situationally. You guys are so class-biased. You guys are trying to buff an already amazing class, apparently you guys can't play the class properly. Double strafe is insane, get FBHs. They're limited to the skills they copy, yes. That was to bring class balance, and it's very well needed on a HR more than a LR. Preserve is perfectly fine. Get a soul link and shut the fuck up, end of story. And a small damage reduction on bows are far from needed. The two classes that use bow have different ways of dodging your enemy. [e.g. Backslide, Arrow Repel, Skid/Snare Traps, Hiding, Stealth, etc.] No, it was definitely HR based. You just analyzed it differently.
sessions Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Posted October 30, 2009 Acid Demo items weigh 1, so why would they need a high weight capacity? The skills consumed by preserve make your stalker more efficient. Nowadays it seems that all stalkers are about is spamming the one skill they copy. Which would be Lightning spear of ice. Like I said, an undispellable stalker would cross the line between balance somewhere. What if they opposing enemies FP ran out, and his only chance of killing the int based stalker was to dispel him and give him some other skill in his tree? Think situationally. You guys are so class-biased. You guys are trying to buff an already amazing class, apparently you guys can't play the class properly. Double strafe is insane, get FBHs. They're limited to the skills they copy, yes. That was to bring class balance, and it's very well needed on a HR more than a LR. Preserve is perfectly fine. Get a soul link and shut the fuck up, end of story. And a small damage reduction on bows are far from needed. The two classes that use bow have different ways of dodging your enemy. [e.g. Backslide, Arrow Repel, Skid/Snare Traps, Hiding, Stealth, etc.] No, it was definitely HR based. You just analyzed it differently. Another reason why AD wouldn't be overpowered is that to effectively use a ghost arrow in combination with it you would need high int, high dex, 195 aspd, some strength, and not to mention the fact that you still need vit for anyware close to semi decent hp. End if story your stats are too far spread out, it wouldn't be OP. Not to be arrogant but your argueing with two very good stalkers. The reason why we don't use bow stalker, which does do very good damage, is because we die too fast because of the lack of a shield and lack of hp. You act like stalkers are godly and they can be on an many people but they are far too easily countered. Fcp and gtb renders a magic stalker useless and fcp with decent reductions renders a dex stalker useless. How can you call them amazing with so many things working against them? And if they are so amazing why is such a tiny fraction of the population people who main stalker? No matter how good you say they are, 90% of pvp is still 2 classes, Assassin Crosses, and Champions. Stalkers have a very limited skill tree that provides 0 help for anything but a dex stalker, as far as offensive skills. We were given Plagiarism and Preserve for a reason. None of you who object to trans skills have given a solid arguement as to why they shouldn't be able to copy trans skills. "Buffing" an already "amazing" class is a joke. Preserve is different on other servers, it was an on/off skill that I never remember being dispelled. And other servers give Stalkers trans skills so I see it as more of making them equal to what they should be. Do you not realize that you can rely on a link some of the time, but what about in near the end of LMS or GvG when your precious linker is gone? To sum it up, your fucked. And since you think I can be linked all of my life why not just let preserve not be dispelled because technically that would be the same thing. Stalkers and Snipers are good classes for avoiding being hit, but thats usually in a 1v1. In a fight involving many people they simply cannot always avoid being hit and when they do, especially from an asura, it is fatal. Plus if you spend all of your time avoiding someone you won't be doing much of your own killing.
Zombee Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 Another reason why AD wouldn't be overpowered is that to effectively use a ghost arrow in combination with it you would need high int, high dex, 195 aspd, some strength, and not to mention the fact that you still need vit for anyware close to semi decent hp. End if story your stats are too far spread out, it wouldn't be OP. It's called versatility. Trust me, it might take a it of a while to find a great hybrid build. The acid demo, and immaterial arrow was actually quite a good idea. That is probably the only Trans skill for a stalker that makes sense. You only need around 60-80 str to be able to hold 120+ yggs. The key isn't to be OP, but to be well balanced. Not to be arrogant but your argueing with two very good stalkers. The reason why we don't use bow stalker, which does do very good damage, is because we die too fast because of the lack of a shield and lack of hp. You act like stalkers are godly and they can be on an many people but they are far too easily countered. Fcp and gtb renders a magic stalker useless and fcp with decent reductions renders a dex stalker useless. How can you call them amazing with so many things working against them? And if they are so amazing why is such a tiny fraction of the population people who main stalker? No matter how good you say they are, 90% of pvp is still 2 classes, Assassin Crosses, and Champions. Two very good stalkers, who have yet to find a build to counter gtb and fcp scrolls. That should be the first thing any stalker does. Sure, you die to fast, but that's only to specific things. As a bow stalker, the only thing that should be hitting you is ranged skills. Ever heard of Noxious card? Also, you're just proving my point on how sufficient hybrids are. If they gtb, use bow. If they reduct, use magic skills. Try combo'ing DS with JT to keep sinxs at a distance. And stalkers are amazing, a lot of people don't play them because to become a good hybrid stalker, it'll take quite a bit of qpons. That's not entirely true that 90% PvP is SinX or Champs, there's a large majority of profs, lks, and pallys as well. It's just that SinX and Champs are favored amongst others. Stalkers have a very limited skill tree that provides 0 help for anything but a dex stalker, as far as offensive skills. We were given Plagiarism and Preserve for a reason. None of you who object to trans skills have given a solid arguement as to why they shouldn't be able to copy trans skills. "Buffing" an already "amazing" class is a joke. Preserve is different on other servers, it was an on/off skill that I never remember being dispelled. And other servers give Stalkers trans skills so I see it as more of making them equal to what they should be. Yes, you were given the skills for a reason. But Preserve was made dispellable for a reason, and it always has been dispellable on any server, unless edited by the Devs / Owner. Sure they do, it's not an entirely bad suggestion. I just doubt they'll allow Stalkers to roll around with trans skills. Do you not realize that you can rely on a link some of the time, but what about in near the end of LMS or GvG when your precious linker is gone? To sum it up, your fucked. And since you think I can be linked all of my life why not just let preserve not be dispelled because technically that would be the same thing. That's exactly my point. Stuff like LMS, has to have some kind of balance. What if it was just down to a support prof, and you? Because you picked off everybody but the support prof. His defense mechanism is rendered almost useless by your idea. Besides, there's a gtb for that. Even so, he has magic rod. But if you didn't he could dispel you, and use level 1 Heavens Drive, and Land protector himself. Now if you were hybrid, you could simply just DS the shit out of him. He can't wall of fog because he used land protector. Anyways, I'm sure you'll catch onto the scenario and plan out how you kill him. Stalkers and Snipers are good classes for avoiding being hit, but thats usually in a 1v1. In a fight involving many people they simply cannot always avoid being hit and when they do, especially from an asura, it is fatal. Plus if you spend all of your time avoiding someone you won't be doing much of your own killing. Indeed they are. Stalkers server more use than a Sniper would in a group fight. Seeing as once their FP runs out (considering they have no Creator that's still alive around) you can simply strip them and watch them get stompt. Plus you have better defense tactics than a sniper would. Such as Stealth / Hiding. Yes, snipers can use SinX / Hiding but yours is improved by far.
sessions Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Posted October 30, 2009 Find a perfect hybrid stalker build that uses DS and magic and get back to me. Note: That means damage that can kill someone without stripping AND enough vit to actually survive. I'm done argueing until you get back to me on that. PS: I've experimented with hybrid builds and they fail, hard. I've found that going full magic or full dex is better than failing hard with your weak damage from being hybrid. There simply is not enough stat points there to make it work.
Anarii Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) It's called versatility. Trust me, it might take a it of a while to find a great hybrid build. The acid demo, and immaterial arrow was actually quite a good idea. That is probably the only Trans skill for a stalker that makes sense. You only need around 60-80 str to be able to hold 120+ yggs. The key isn't to be OP, but to be well balanced. 60-80 str for the yggs. What about the ad bottles? With high int and 1000-2000 bottles, that's not even enough to make somebody drop dead. Two very good stalkers, who have yet to find a build to counter gtb and fcp scrolls. That should be the first thing any stalker does. Sure, you die to fast, but that's only to specific things. As a bow stalker, the only thing that should be hitting you is ranged skills. Ever heard of Noxious card? Also, you're just proving my point on how sufficient hybrids are. If they gtb, use bow. If they reduct, use magic skills. Try combo'ing DS with JT to keep sinxs at a distance. And stalkers are amazing, a lot of people don't play them because to become a good hybrid stalker, it'll take quite a bit of qpons. That's not entirely true that 90% PvP is SinX or Champs, there's a large majority of profs, lks, and pallys as well. It's just that SinX and Champs are favored amongst others. Thana>Noxious, RSX>JT. Also sure, you might be able to evade a high amount of melee attacks, but not all. pnuema+rsx> you. To me, it seems like you talk in theory. Try it yourself. Edited October 30, 2009 by Anarii
Zombee Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 60-80 str for the yggs. What about the ad bottles? With high int and 1000-2000 bottles, that's not even enough to make somebody drop dead. AD bottles weigh 1 each, that's not shit. If it takes your 1-2k Acid demos to kill someone, then you definitely need to find yourself a better method to kill. Especially seeing as Stalkers can't even AD. Thana>Noxious, RSX>JT. Also sure, you might be able to evade a high amount of melee attacks, but not all. pnuema+rsx> you. Skoll > Thana. RSX? Then backslide. Plagarism, sir. JT was a suggestion, if you care that much about it, then get lightning spear of ice. Even so, with a decent amount of int, they're drilling in quite some damage from the JT, and a lot faster because they aren't being knocked back. Very simple, wait out FP. To me, it seems like you talk in theory. Try it yourself. Theory? LOL. More like common sense, bud. I don't need to try out what I already have on another server. (: Also, I don't want to hear your "well this server isn't that server" bullshit, because this server was / is based off of the server. Is that all you have to say? I basically written an entire wall, and that's all you quoted.
Anarii Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) AD bottles weigh 1 each, that's not shit. If it takes your 1-2k Acid demos to kill someone, then you definitely need to find yourself a better method to kill. Especially seeing as Stalkers can't even AD. well, with only around 7-8k weight and most being taken up by yggs, 1000 ads=2000 weight. I know they can't, I'm just basing this off of his suggestion. Skoll > Thana. RSX? Then backslide. Plagarism, sir. JT was a suggestion, if you care that much about it, then get lightning spear of ice. Even so, with a decent amount of int, they're drilling in quite some damage from the JT, and a lot faster because they aren't being knocked back. Very simple, wait out FP. Theory? LOL. More like common sense, bud. I don't need to try out what I already have on another server. (: Also, I don't want to hear your "well this server isn't that server" bullshit, because this server was / is based off of the server. Is that all you have to say? I basically written an entire wall, and that's all you quoted. So that pretty much knocks out your noxious card tactic, seeing as they both take a manteau slot. GTB>Magic. We judge what we see on our server, not what "was" on yours. never any intention to attack your server, sorry if you thought i would. as for your wall, I only quoted what I felt like commenting about. Edited October 30, 2009 by Anarii
Zombee Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 well, with only around 7-8k weight and most being taken up by yggs, 1000 ads=2000 weight. I know they can't, I'm just basing this off of his suggestion. You wouldn't be carrying them in the first place, and even if you were, you wouldn't need 1k of them. Even so, that's just another int based range attack you're adding. Why would you pick a skill that's countered by the same exact thing your double strafe is? So that pretty much knocks out your noxious card tactic, seeing as they both take a manteau slot. GTB>Magic. Manteau's are two slotted. Strip shield > GTB. We judge what we see on our server, not what "was" on yours. never any intention to attack your server, sorry if you thought i would. as for your wall, I only quoted what I felt like commenting about. It's based off it, very very similar. Especially seeing as your FKing sets stats were taken from there. I never said you did, I was just throwing that out there because it's what was expected. Not by you, but anybody else posting. The fact is, Preserve should remain Dispellable. That's what this entire discussion was about, yet you tend dodge that part.
Anarii Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) You wouldn't be carrying them in the first place, and even if you were, you wouldn't need 1k of them. Even so, that's just another int based range attack you're adding. Why would you pick a skill that's countered by the same exact thing your double strafe is? nevermind for that, read something wrong. Manteau's are two slotted. Strip shield > GTB. then in that situation a double skoll would be better. FCP>Strip Shield It's based off it, very very similar. Especially seeing as your FKing sets stats were taken from there. I never said you did, I was just throwing that out there because it's what was expected. Not by you, but anybody else posting. Yeah, I know. Just saying that our community believes in concrete proof; what happens in OUR server, not what happens in stories of another. The fact is, Preserve should remain Dispellable. That's what this entire discussion was about, yet you tend dodge that part. I've already expressed my opinion about that, just now providing arguments for the other ones. Edited October 30, 2009 by Anarii
Zombee Posted October 30, 2009 Report Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) then in that situation a double skoll would be better. FCP>Strip ShieldFor the 5th time, FP doesn't last forever. Anyone who's sane won't waste FCP scrolls against a stalker. They're far better used against creators, Whitesmiths, and anyone with a WS card. Yeah, I know. Just saying that our community believes in concrete proof; what happens in OUR server, not what happens in stories of another. Okay, so where's the concrete proof about Pnuema owning Stalkers as a whole? Int skills aren't the only skills to choose from. I'm just saying Hybrid was a more effective choice. But if you want to piss and moan over Pnuema, get bowling bash. Stalkers already have an insane amount of skills to choose from, with the help of Plagarism of course. I've already expressed my opinion about that, just now providing arguments for the other ones. I have yet to see any input from you about whether Preserve should remain dispellable, or change it to being dispel immune. Which I still find a bad idea. Edited October 30, 2009 by Zombee
sessions Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Posted October 30, 2009 For the 5th time, FP doesn't last forever. Anyone who's sane won't waste FCP scrolls against a stalker. They're far better used against creators, Whitesmiths, and anyone with a WS card. Okay, so where's the concrete proof about Pnuema owning Stalkers as a whole? Int skills aren't the only skills to choose from. I'm just saying Hybrid was a more effective choice. But if you want to piss and moan over Pnuema, get bowling bash. Stalkers already have an insane amount of skills to choose from, with the help of Plagarism of course. I have yet to see any input from you about whether Preserve should remain dispellable, or change it to being dispel immune. Which I still find a bad idea. Stalkers do have a large number of skills to pick from but they are not very good except a select few, (LSOI and BB) which is why I would like trans skills to give them some more choices that are actually semi-decent. They won't be overpowered and if they are, it will be nerfed, changes don't have to be permanent you know? And this discussion isn't only about dispel, its about class balance in general if you read my first post.
