Halloween Hats

[HealHard]

So i tested out the new hats and came up with this suggestion to increase usefulness of those.

current effects are:

2 slots

Max HP +15%, Max SP +20%

Mage Class: Int +15, Dex +15

Archer Class: Dex +15, Agi +15

Swordsman Class: Str +15, Agi +15

Thief Class: Str +15, Dex +15

Taekwon Class: Str +15, Int +15

Gunslinger Class: Dex +15, Agi +15

Ninja Class: Int +15, Dex +15

Merchant Class: Int +15, Dex +15

Acolyte Class: Int +15, Agi +15

With Fset: Freeze Immunity, ASPD +2

Suggested changes:

1.the set effect.

I suggest to improve ASPD bonus to 5. Reasoning: slow weapon users like mages/priests need about 5+ agi to increase aspd by 1. easy calculations: lacking 8 aspd means increasing agility by 40+, which means that they have to put more points to agility and less to vitality. If they do so, the HP bonus from the hat disappears and they just get +5int/dex at the cost of other stats. Fast weapon users and dex-based classes will not be much affected much by this change as they can easily achieve 195 aspd on any gears.

Also, Fset gives +5% hp + 10 vitality bonus with fset. It beats +15% HP bonus from hat for low-vit runners. I suggest to increase that value to 20%HP/SP.

2.Class-special effects:

Ninja: str +15, int +15 - will be useful for both str and int builds.

Merchant: int+ 15, str + 15 - so both WS and creator can benefit from it.

Summing up, the suggested effect is:

2 slots

Max HP +15%, Max SP +20%

Mage Class: Int +15, Dex +15

Archer Class: Dex +15, Agi +15

Swordsman Class: Str +15, Agi +15

Thief Class: Str +15, Dex +15

Taekwon Class: Str +15, Int +15

Gunslinger Class: Dex +15, Agi +15

Ninja Class: Int +15, Str+15

Merchant Class: Int+ 15, Str+ 15

Acolyte Class: Int +15, Agi +15

With Fset: Freeze Immunity, ASPD +8

The rest of the effects are quite balanced from my point of view. Leave comments below :) Edited December 29, 2011 by HealHard

[Beautiful]

i think the whole reason for ASPD+2 and not +5 is its an alternative to an Fhelm. the stats that are given benefit alot of classes. if you aspd+5 chances are the wep will be better and more usable then Fhelm. i think they made it as an alternative to the itam and not to be the most overpowered helm. but thats just my idea on it. other then that +1 on the ws and ninja idea.

[HealHard]

i think the whole reason for ASPD+2 and not +5 is its an alternative to an Fhelm. the stats that are given benefit alot of classes. if you aspd+5 chances are the wep will be better and more usable then Fhelm. i think they made it as an alternative to the itam and not to be the most overpowered helm. but thats just my idea on it. other then that +1 on the ws and ninja idea.

Well, first of all +5aspd is not the same as + 10aspd. Stats benefit to all classes indeed, but dont forget that hat gives +15 to only TWO stats, while fhelm boosts ALL stats +10 and another 10 for str and luck. I did explain why adding a BIT more aspd wouldnt hurt, it would just balance this helm with fhelm while remeaning different. Moreover, it is donation item so i doubt that it should be underpowered. At the moment only a few classes can actually use those hats because of HUGE difference in stats (because of agility) compared to fhelm. The changes i suggest can hardly make these hats overpowered by any means, but it could possibly become an alternative for more players. And please note that i dont mention Imperial valk helms here. They still gonna be on top for most classes.

[Xtopher]

Suggested changes:

Also, Fset gives +5% hp + 10 vitality bonus with fset. It beats +15% HP bonus from hat for low-vit runners. I suggest to increase that value to 20%HP/SP.

Why should it be better than fset?

Secondly, you seem to only consider the low vit-to-hp ratio classes. This kind of HP buff is huge on classes like LK/Sinx/Pala...

These classes do not need more hp.

With a balloon and proper equipment most classes seem to have a fair HP rate. The one that you mention (High Priest) gets tons of HP if you use a balloon, valk book and vit belts.

My priest tanks full asuras on GTB/skolls when I go tank/vit build so I don't see an issue with HP here.

I believe the Halloween hats are fine as they are. I don't think they were meant to be end-all gamebreaker helmets. They're seasonal hats that are currently on par with Fhelm and GvH in terms of over-all usefulness. Plus, it seems that seasonal items are being nerfed (scarfs) after the season ends so why buff it anyway?

Edited December 28, 2011 by Xtopher

[supream]

lol i already made this suggestion. it only adds 10% hp since you lose the 5 from the f set bonus and the 10 vit points so its not as much hp as you think. but i dont think it needs to be changed to 20%. the only reason why the 5 aspd i thought was needed was since you would need like 50-60 more stats into agi to get the same as if you were to have fhelm on which i thought defeated the purpose of using the hat. sure you wouldnt need the same stats in the stats the hat was giving you but you almost have to use the exact same stats to get the aspd back, unless your character is dex based.

[HealHard]

Why should it be better than fset?

Secondly, you seem to only consider the low vit-to-hp ratio classes. This kind of HP buff is huge on classes like LK/Sinx/Pala...

These classes do not need more hp.

With a balloon and proper equipment most classes seem to have a fair HP rate. The one that you mention (High Priest) gets tons of HP if you use a balloon, valk book and vit belts.

My priest tanks full asuras on GTB/skolls when I go tank/vit build so I don't see an issue with HP here.

I believe the Halloween hats are fine as they are. I don't think they were meant to be end-all gamebreaker helmets. They're seasonal hats that are currently on par with Fhelm and GvH in terms of over-all usefulness. Plus, it seems that seasonal items are being nerfed (scarfs) after the season ends so why buff it anyway?

First of all. i dont tell it should be better then fset. But it has to be competitive. As for "OP" Hp bonus here are some values:

on 293 base vit paladin this hat adds 12k more HP then Fhelm (fset is on). Exact values are : 417340 on fhelm and 429711 on hat. that makes 3% of actual hp increase. is that OP? no, as paladin will need more agi/dex also to keep 195 aspd.

next test - sinx 258k vs 265k on 165 base vit. around 2.5% hp increase. at cost of 20! str and 10 luck and aspd. Do i need to contniue?

Less vit - less effective the HP bonus is.

Next - the idea of this hat was to increase hp/sp at cost of agi/damage. lacking about 50 agi can not match with 3% actual hp increase i suppose.

And no, they are NOT on the par with fhelms / gvhs. thats why this suggestion is made. to make it an option for some players, not replacement of fhelm. at the moment their usefulness is highly questionable.

And sorry Mike, i have never seen your suggestion about these. i guess that i missed it :( but i hope you like the changes i suggest to balance out the hats)

Edited December 28, 2011 by HealHard

[Xtopher]

Since when do paladins need 195 attack speed?

20% from a top headgear along with the previously mentioned stats is just a bit much.

I would say they're on par with fhelm in terms of usefulness. I see people using these hats over fhelms on certain classes already.

Another thing: If we keep stacking hp we're going to be back to a similar problem as with the Demi Human redux stacking. People are never going to die.

A sinx/LK/Pala with your 20% suggestion + cape + skull aura is going to have a huge HP bonus and a large amount of redux at the same time. This makes them especially hard to kill. This is pushed to an even further extreme in WoE. A Sinx/LK can just stack vit/hp increasing items and tank whole guilds long enough to break an emp.

I don't want to see single breakers tanking whole guilds again.

You're looking at Sinx's with aprox ~400k hp and around 70% damage reduction, or an LK with 600k+ hp with the same reductions + 1 hand parry. Sure, they won't do a whole lot of damage but they don't need to if they can just tank a guild for 3-4 mins while storaging for YGGs to break an emp by themselves.

You guys are complaining "well my build is basically the same with the hat after re-stating as it was with a Fhelm before." Why is this a problem? The point of the hats is to LOOK different while being on par with fhelm. You look more unique, you have more opportunities to mix/match headgears/ color pallets. In my oppinion the hats are fine for what they are; seasonal headgears.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Xtopher

[HealHard]

Since when do paladins need 195 attack speed?

20% from a top headgear along with the previously mentioned stats is just a bit much.

I would say they're on par with fhelm in terms of usefulness. I see people using these hats over fhelms on certain classes already.

Another thing: If we keep stacking hp we're going to be back to a similar problem as with the Demi Human redux stacking. People are never going to die.

A sinx/LK/Pala with your 20% suggestion + cape + skull aura is going to have a huge HP bonus and a large amount of redux at the same time. This makes them especially hard to kill. This is pushed to an even further extreme in WoE. A Sinx/LK can just stack vit/hp increasing items and tank whole guilds long enough to break an emp.

I don't want to see single breakers tanking whole guilds again.

You're looking at Sinx's with aprox ~400k hp and around 70% damage reduction, or an LK with 600k+ hp with the same reductions + 1 hand parry. Sure, they won't do a whole lot of damage but they don't need to if they can just tank a guild for 3-4 mins while storaging for YGGs to break an emp by themselves.

you point of view in understandable and predictable. but you have not tested this hat, so i wonder how did you find out that it is on par with fhelm. so i doubt you really understand what you are talking about. I have enough reasoning already. whats so bad if sinx gets like 3% more HP at the cost of Aspd and damage? that is op? you can do it it right away with Fhelm - just cut your str and increase agi and vit instead.

As for people that wear those - i can tell you why they use the hats. they look awesome. thats the main reason so far. And yes, for a few classes it is almost on par with fhelm. so they can use it.

P.S. and do not forget that Fhelm is a donation item as well. so it is right to compare them. just to keep it clear.

Edited December 28, 2011 by HealHard

[Xtopher]

I don't need the helmet to do the calculations.

It's just not necessary.

Also, I like how you completely ignored my WoE comment.

If you absolutely reject my opinion solely on the grounds that I don't have the helmet then re-read Mike's above post. Even he doesn't think the 20% is necessary and he has/uses the hat.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Xtopher

[HealHard]

I like the way you completely ignore my arguments also. i dont see the point to discuss it with you anymore. Deal with the fact that at the cost of some vitality you will have to put more points into agility and strength. And i dont see any connection with this very fact and WOE reductions. As i said, you can do the same with fhelm, just put some more points into vitality, Once final time i will state this: to be on par with existing headgears these hats have to compensate aspd bonus. adding 5% more vit is needed in order to keep the difference in helms. i can suggest to make it +7/8 aspd and keep the same hp bonus. I hope its clear enough now.

[Xtopher]

Maybe the attack speed compensation could work but I'll never agree to buffing the hp/sp %.

The reason I mention WoE is because a lot of breakers go full hp builds for survivability. They stack as much HP and demi-human reductions as they can just to simply make themselves unkillable. Damage in general is already nerfed in WoE so giving them EVEN MORE hp is a bad idea. One sinx tanking 10 people for 2 minutes is, in my opinion, bullshit. I don't see a reason to give Sinx/LK more tanking capacity.

When stacking up on HP modifiers these players aren't worried about the damage they'll lose. All they want is more hp to tank with.

[HealHard]

Well then i assume that this change should work. ASPD increase by another 3 points, making it 8. and returning the hp to 15% value.

[supream]

giving the hat 8 aspd might be to much. 5 might do for right now.

[HealHard]

So lets go in-depth calculations:

Fhelm : +5% hp, +10 all stats, +10 str, +10 luck, +10aspd.

Skull cap: +15%hp,+20%sp, +15 to 2 stats, +2aspd.

Here is HP calculation formula in Ragnarok Online:

MAX_HP = Math.floor( MAX_HP * (1 + VIT * 0.01) * TRANS_MOD );

in which original MAX_HP value is character's basic hitpoints on 255 level without stats and gears etc.

with gears equiped average person would have around 150 vitality at least (with gears bonuses).

Test one: skull cap. TRANS_MOD will be (10%frigg,10%farmor,15%skull cap). Result: 3.375 of basic HP amount.

Test two: fhelm. TRANS_MOD will be (10% frigg, 10%farmor,5%fset bonus) AND +10 extra vitality. Result: 3.250 of basic HP amount.

in percents it means that fhelm gives 0.963 of HP amount that skull cap provides. thats less then 4%!!!!!! we can achieve 4% growth with only a few extra vit points.

Here are some calculations for paladins:

vit will be 290base + 80 vit belts + 50 from other stuff.

Skull cap: (1.35 ratio) : 7.02 of base HP.

Fhelm (1.25 ratio and another 10 vit) : 6.625 of base HP.

in percents it means that fhelm gives 0.944 of HP amount that skull cap provides. 5.6%. better, but its almost triple ot the amount of vitality other classes can afford.

Thats all that hat users get at the cost of dozens of stats. i dont think that is fair.

So, the reasoning: 8 aspd because the HP bonus is almost irrelevant(!) with skull cap existing HP boost value. lacking 2 aspd would be ok to par it with fhelm, so fhelm users can put their "extra" points unused in agility to vitality (2 aspd lack is lacking around 10 stats in agi).

I guess this is quite an argument for further discussion.

P.S. : I bet that Chris also did those calculations as he mentioned before, but he decided not to share the results, right? ;-D

[Xtopher]

You keep saying you can add more vit to your build to get an equal amount of hp as a skull cap. On the other hand, if you increase the base vit with the skull cap build by the same amount of vit you're left in the same position so the argument is a wash.

I know the percentage change in HP. My point isn't that the hat itself will imbalance everything. My point IS that we can't keep increasing HP modifiers. Balloon, cape, and now halloween helmets are all boosting up HP rates. (It is my theory that this was done to counter act the tao gunka "fix" a few months back)

If we keep following this path of just buffing HP we're going to have classes become very imbalanced. The classes I mentioned (sinx, pala, LK) have huge HP modifiers. If we keep popping off HP % increases these classes will get close to being unkillable outside of coma and that my friend is not balanced. I saw a sinx and a paladin tanking aproximately 15-18 people in WoE yesterday for a solid 2-2.5 minutes. The last thing I think we need to do is give them more HP.

Classes who don't need buffs, like the above mentioned, will be getting a greater gain off of this change than those who actually need it (Clown/SG/Wiz/Prof). Too many flat percentage HP boosts across the class board are imbalanced because all the classes have different HP modifiers. Some classes do need more HP, but a lot of them do not.

I agree that changing 15% to 20% won't break the game but it's a slippery slope to things that WILL later on. Just like how we started stacking all the demi-human reductions in the past.

Lastly, I've said this before: I've seen people ingame using the hats. They serve a purpose already, whether it be cosmetic or otherwise.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Xtopher

[HealHard]

Actually, i have changed the suggestion terms, so now we speak about keeping 15% hp bonus but increase ASPD to 8. HP calculations above are meant to show the actual HP boost from skull cap to decide how many stats it actually lacks. so i guess that will be out main objective.

[HealHard]

Any more comments?

[Perishable]

Don't feel like reading but I think it should be better than f.helm. It's 30 bucks and f helm is 10. Not asking for much, I appreciate the headgear but I'm suggesting to improve it. Maybe give the same aspd as f.helm

[Xtopher]

It costs more because its supposed to be a limited time seasonal item... At least I think so.

[Perishable]

From my point of view, it's not really limited. The limited section on token shop never gets removed yet.

[HealHard]

This suggestion is even more motivated after the release of new limited offer hats. bumping/waiting for approving.

[Halion]

yeah i think 5 aspd instead of 2 wouldn't hurt at all, the boost never helps if i have to add more agi -_-

[Ger]

Sorry for reviving old topics.

I think you should add another 5% to the hp bonus and change the 2 ASPD to 5.

So the hat gives a good bonus to sp, I make few test on my champ, the only good think is that you have to get about 50 int ? for 6k sp but you need to use more stat points to get 195 aspd.

Atm I got about 20~30k more hp but I lost alot of str, right now I think its better if I just keep my old build with fhelm, I payed about 1k for the hat and the only thing that I got is the sp bonus, you can keep your old build and switch to the new hat + fbh+tanee you dont need to switch to hollows but I think the hat should be slighty better than fhelm since we dont have the same amount of items as fhelm.

Now everyone has an fhelm and you can get one for about 30 tkns? hallowen hats are supposed to be unique, some ppl paid about 800~1k+tkns for them right now I prefer to keep my 30 tkns.

I think you should at least change the ASPD to 5

Sorry for my bad english

Edited February 7, 2012 by Ger

[HealHard]

I think that everyone in this topic have pretty same opinion about these hats. Calculations say that people are right. Xtopher is rather neutral on the topic. So all people vote for buffing the hats, one is neutral. Lets change them already?

And to be completely honest, supreamus and ger say that if should be buffed to +5 aspd at least. Lets make at least this very small change then?

[supream]

it just that it defeated the purpose of the hat to try new builds if u gotta put as much agi as u did the other stats making you a little weaker.