Where to draw the line?

[Jewel]

So I've had this discussion with a few people.. and I was wondering how to community and the GMs felt about what is appropriate and what isn't appropriate when it comes to in game chat. I'll quote what the rules say..

Immoral Speech (to speak offensive language constantly):

Because not everyone gets your jokes.

While it's a good rule, it's obviously vague. I assume that the rule means that what is appropriate and what is inappropriate is dependent on the GM at hand and punishment or no punishment is based on their judgement. However, clearly everyone's morals and standards differ from person to person. So this is kind of a grey area rule. Nobody is quite sure how to follow it.

What brought this discussion about for me was last week I allowed my niece to play for a bit while I was babysitting. My niece, who is 9 can read very, very well so obviously if someone messages me, she calls me and I deal with it. 20 minutes or so later, I hear "AUNTIE ASH - SOME GUY JUST CALLED ME A NIGGER!" Now obviously this would insult anyone, but my nieces are mixed and they know what the word means. They were raised know that the word was offensive and racist.

I read back through the chat log and I explained to her that said person most likely wasn't talking to her and to just ignore it. I then had to explain to her how some people found the word funny. Lovely.

Now before you go and say "Well maybe you shouldn't allow your nieces to play?", consider that there is no rule or claus in the TOS that states you must be a certain age to enjoy FRO. And also consider that some players are even younger than she is. While a majority of the population are all well corrupted in their age ( aheueh ), many still have "virgin" ears/eyes.

I will admit that I myself curse like a sailor. I'm don't fluff things up on the internet. I don't say fork, I very clearly say fuck. I do believe that to a certain extent we should be able to speak the way we want, so long as we aren't offending anyone or directing our "offensive" language towards anyone.

What my question is, is where is the line drawn? What is okay and what isn't? Discuss?

[Jewel]

This is a serious discussion, so let's all act like adults and handle it in a proper manner.[/font][/color]

I appreciate that more than you imagine.

When it comes to drugs, personally, it doesn't bother me. It's really hard to draw the line on that because in some areas, some drugs are perfectly legal. In Canada, I've been told, that having a "personal sack" is okay. Selling/Distribution is another story. Someone mentioned that weed is completely legal in Germany... I've read other things but okay. Still, the server is US based and in the US, weed and all non-perscription drugs are illegal, obviously.

Sex is another story. My niece is getting into the age where she's growing up quickly. She's susceptable to lots of opinion and the last thing I want, for anyone with family playing the server.. or younger friends, is for them to get the idea that underage sex is a'ok. That's something their parents should discuss with them. Not a MMO server full of horny teens. @_@;

[ramonjordan]

I say we have freedom of speech but a extent

if you find something offensive let the person know

you cant just say well he said the "n" word lets punish him

topics like these will always have conflicts what is offensive to

some might be acceptable to others

i think as a community we have to decide whats considered acceptable

and what isnt

Oh.

and hi jewel its YellowFlash

XD

[Jewel]

Hi Flash. I agree with you on some points, however I do believe that there's a fine line between 'nigga' and 'nigger'.

One is a derogatory statement for a black person in today's society.. though the correct definition is completely different. I don't think this one is appropriate.

Nigga, on the other hand, is completely acceptable. It's a term of endearment to most and I see nothing wrong with it.

That fine line is the 'er' and the 'a'. They're quite different things.

[ramonjordan]

yea not to get off topic though some people have no problem with either

but then there are people that hate that word altogether

its the same with some one calling me a spick

when some one says it i tell chill on the name calling

thats really all it takes words cant hurt

it just takes a little maturity to be able to use some

im sorry if the conversation we were having offended you jewel /sry

[Jewel]

Nothing anyone says on the internet offends me, personally. I just want the younger crowd to be considered here. I met someone in Morroc and she says she's 8. ._. It scares the crap out of me to think of what might happen if some of the bullies here get to her. Some people DO take the internet seriously. And when you're a child, you don't have the ability to differentiate what is real and what isn't.

[ramonjordan]

well

i think the broadcaster rules should be enforced more because i dont think that nga is any different than nigga

i see it all the time what im getting at is let me know all the words that are prohibited so that i know

because apparently hoe does not count as a bad word? lol

i mean it is just one letter extra

thats like me saying the "f" word and adding a letter "T" to it

[lndalecio]

Based on experience, GMs punish only those comments that has been deemed offensive. For example, a GM may not punish those comments that were not directed to the one who reported. To clear this up, the only things you could find offensive are:

1. Things directed at you.

2. If it wasn't directed at you, your name was somehow involved and you were offended.

3. Or conversations that you find inappropriate. However, you could always ask them nicely to just cut it out.

A GM may not punish the following:

1. A harmless conversation between friends, provided that they aren't offending anybody. If they appear malicious to another person then they could get away with a warn.

2. This is the internet. It cannot be helped that there could be times that people blurt out some words that people find offending. However, if the person being offended isn't in anyway part of the conversation, he/she could again ask the people nicely to just stop. It is not always the case though. You may or may not get the attention you wanted. The only time they might be punished is when they retaliate with harsh words aimed at you. Failure to consider a friendly reminder and not to mention the reckless use of offending words has always been punishable by the law.

[Jewel]

Asking someone to "cut it out" is about as effective as asking something for 50 donation coupons for free. People don't respect anything but authority, period. I've asked people to stop nicely before. Nope. It only works when you add "or I'll report you" at the end.

[Impulse]

Now before you go and say "Well maybe you shouldn't allow your nieces to play?", consider that there is no rule or claus in the TOS that states you must be a certain age to enjoy FRO. And also consider that some players are even younger than she is.

i agree with you no doubt, but the game is rated T. you should have known the precautions, that there are players that acts like twits

and in any mmorpg there's always gonna be a situation like this.

[Damascus]

No child could say that they learned swears off of Forsaken Ragnarok Online because you know that people say this shit out in the streets. I live in the projects, urbanized to the max. This woman was saying ' Getcho ass hea kid befo' I get yo fuckin' dad ' to her 6 year old kid.

Just the other day there was a daycare thing going as a group to the trainstation. Some crackhead yelled ' You're out of your fucking mind ' while laughing at his friend. The children looked at him, aware of what he said obviously. They've possibly learned the new word.

The line should be drawn if it offends you / is directed to you.

You're an adult and obviously have heard these swears. The majority of the people here regardless of the game, will learn swears, theres no way to avoid it. The choice is yours whether to use them or not. It is also yours to ask people to shut up.

My point being, don't be a saint or discuss a lost cause. Take action on your own.

If someone harasses you, report it. They'll be punished.

If you don't want people swearing... Lol.. go to Mars.

Edit: tbh; my friends told me about 2girls1cup. Now they drew the line.

[Icon]

So, no more saying spick and nigger ?

That's the worst things I've seen here other than people actually letting their children

or other peoples children play an mmo.

We don't have chat filters because we're supposed to be mature enough to know how

to use those words, and on top of that the chat filters are easily disabled.

If you're that sensitive, then you probably shouldn't be on the internet

If you're 8 !! (omg), then you probably shouldn't be on the internet(alone?)

If you're a racist, you should be shot ... on the internet.

You know what happens outside of fRO ... on the internet ... You can watch people get hung(to death) ...

you can watch fecalphiliacs dump on each other ... you can watch racials slurs being handed

out every 10 seconds in the most popular new music video ... oh ya !!

Flames and verbal abuse and drug chats(i cant believe i had to put that in there)

SHOULD be treated on case to case basis. This is the problem with any culture.

They try to rule on things they just don't understand. When you do that some

people will see it as an infringement on THEIR rights/liberties and retaliate with more

slurs/drugchats/whatever.

My point .... There is a line BUT for me it's WAAAAY over there passed the big FUK U HITLER sign,

take a right at the giant BONG, keep going until you see huge NIGGER/SPICK/JEW/CHINK/FAG billboard,

and well you're still not there yet and you might want to stop for gas because its a long drive.

But maybe in your point of view I have already crossed the line.

I understand that you want to make our little square of the net better

but this discussion could go on for eternity and we'd never come up with

a decent place to draw this line unless everyone was the same race/age/religion/etc..

... case to case basis ... that's why the rule is so vague, IMO

[Jewel]

The discussion was started to discuss the RULE, mainly. There's no clarification when it comes to it. I don't believe that racists comments should be allowed. I don't think we should have a chat filter. I DO think that the GMs should have some kind of guideline of what is appropriate and what isn't. What is punishable and what isn't. And I think users should be aware of those specifications so that there is a clear line of what is okay and what isn't.

Simply saying "If someone offends you, report them" but why waste time reporting someone that says something that offends you if the GM that is dealing with the case doesn't find it offensive?

Example: Someone in game says "I like titties" ( go along with me for the sake of argument, I wouldn't be offended by this ) and I report them. Zeit picks up the issue and reads what happens. Zeit is of course sitting there thinking "YAME2BUDDY!" while I'm sitting at my computer, offended. Nothing happens to said offender and I'm continuously offended by his love of titties. ;[

What is offensive to one person may not be offensive to another, that's what I'm saying.

[Jewel]

I just don't think we should have to force ourselves to put up with other people's rudeness.

Agreed.

[Damascus]

Jewel, I know what you were saying.

RO or Reality, you wouldn't do much. You can't do much but rant.

You both just want a false vision. Something untrue, not real. Won't happen unless you become world leaders or something. Which in that case, won't happen.

Also: I never read forum posts. I never have, since day 1 since most of what people post is just stupid. Or false. Either one. You could say what I post stupid, but am I asking for everyday words to be considered forbidden? Hell no.

You don't have to put up with other's rudeness. You could just simply leave, or not read. It's simple. You're not obliged to read everything, so don't do it. It's your choice.

[Damascus]

fRO improved by this?

If you really want it improved then make a suggestion for a Chat Blocker like in iRO.

Instead of fuck; you recieve a red message in your chat filter saying something like

' Sorry buddy, foul language detected '.

Then it's solved.

Instead of ranting about the swears. Lol.

[Damascus]

It's a discussion about how to improve the situation at hand. If you personally think that's how the problem could be taken care of, okay, then that's your opinion. That's how you stay on topic. Thank you. :)

iRO did it and it handled their problem.

[Damascus]

You were clear the first time. No need to repeat yourself.

You couldv'e just deleted the foul language instead of the entire sentence.

If I was clear then why did you bother posting back about it though.

It's not an opinion that adding the chat blocker would fix the issue, it's a fact.

[Zeitgeist]

The rule has a double standard as to why it is written so vaguely. First of all, I must admit there is no way I could come up with a rule that would cover everyone's morale; that's simply impossible. I do not have the knowledge of the morale of other countries or cultures, let alone I would come up with a way to synthesize them all into a single clause. The second reason why the rule is so vague is because anyone can understand what's immoral, and, for my fortune, there are some actions/words/thoughts that are considered immoral trough the world. For example, even if there is people who use ' nigger ' or ' nigga ' or any other form of abbreviation of the word with intentions to refer to a friend hilariously, they still know that the word CAN and IS used in derogatory forms. Which, latterly, would lead to them being cautious about using it.

I can't say I'm clean from immoral speech myself, in the sense I might have said something that could be considered derogatory (I haven't been reported for anything, not once, just to drop any possible attacks). However, I do know that from the PoV of someone who used a derogatory word in hopes to sound funny, being derogatory to a person or a group was nothing near the offender's intentions.

Getting onto the report acceptation/rejection. Someone was nice enough to type it down for me.

Based on experience, GMs punish only those comments that has been deemed offensive. For example, a GM may not punish those comments that were not directed to the one who reported. To clear this up, the only things you could find offensive are:

1. Things directed at you.

2. If it wasn't directed at you, your name was somehow involved and you were offended.

3. Or conversations that you find inappropriate. However, you could always ask them nicely to just cut it out.

A GM may not punish the following:

1. A harmless conversation between friends, provided that they aren't offending anybody. If they appear malicious to another person then they could get away with a warn.

2. This is the internet. It cannot be helped that there could be times that people blurt out some words that people find offending. However, if the person being offended isn't in anyway part of the conversation, he/she could again ask the people nicely to just stop. It is not always the case though. You may or may not get the attention you wanted. The only time they might be punished is when they retaliate with harsh words aimed at you. Failure to consider a friendly reminder and not to mention the reckless use of offending words has always been punishable by the law.

The simple fact why some offenders get away with being reported for Immoral speech is that, we can't be sure whether who's telling the truth. However, for cases in which we are presented proof that the offense was directed towards the player which made the report, we don't hesitate to act. I've told many of the people who've asked for my help to solve their cases, as well as the people who I have punished due to this type of cases: I am not here to judge whether people are really offended or not about what was said to them, only to apply the rules. In which case, Jewel, if you were to send me a screenshot in which it is clear someone told you "I like titties" and you would explain the cause why it offends you, then I wouldn't hesitate to punish the offender.

For those who speak general immoralities at the view of the community, I try to put my input to the offenders, without, of course, being too forward about it; fRO players do have their right of speech, regardless if they misuse it or not. Some of you might already know my famous phrases for when I try to stop people from continuing their immoral speech. Things such as:

"Keep it PG-13"

"Your mom would not be proud of what you just said"

"Every time you say [word] God kills a poring"

I hope this can all answer your questions regarding the issue. If not, feel free to post again.

[Terminus]

I'm glad you brought this up. I'd like to see everyone's opinions on what should be allowed and what shouldn't be. I had a situation last night that crossed this rule, and I have no idea how to deal with it. Should it be alright to talk about sex in public areas where people can see? Should it be allowed to discuss illegal drug and alcohol use? I'd like to hear your opinions so that I, as a GM, can get a feel of what the community thinks is right in wrong in the terms of immortal speech. Let's keep this topic free of flame, I will delete any unnecessary comments. This is a serious discussion, so let's all act like adults and handle it in a proper manner.

This may sound like a flame, but this is what I'm beginning to pick up.

From what I noticed, you always agree with specific suggestions and say things like "Glad someone finally brought it up". Why don't you take some initiative yourself as a GM?

I appreciate that more than you imagine.

When it comes to drugs, personally, it doesn't bother me. It's really hard to draw the line on that because in some areas, some drugs are perfectly legal. In Canada, I've been told, that having a "personal sack" is okay. Selling/Distribution is another story. Someone mentioned that weed is completely legal in Germany... I've read other things but okay. Still, the server is US based and in the US, weed and all non-perscription drugs are illegal, obviously.

Sex is another story. My niece is getting into the age where she's growing up quickly. She's susceptable to lots of opinion and the last thing I want, for anyone with family playing the server.. or younger friends, is for them to get the idea that underage sex is a'ok. That's something their parents should discuss with them. Not a MMO server full of horny teens. @_@;

In Canada, having illegal drugs is a extensively harse offense. Many people in Toronto have "Grow houses", which is a house used to grow pot. It's jailable, ruins the house's property reputation, and destroy's the community's reputation as well.

Having possession of drugs is also illegal as said before.

On-topic: I totally agree with what you're saying. My brother goes on RO and sees people calling each other the "n" word and asks me what it means. I tell him that it's just another bad word that is forbidden to say. He asks me why they can say it and he can't; so I have to be extremely vague, yet try to settle the discussion.

Also, I've spoken to Genesis about this before, and what he told me was that if you find it offensive or you consider it harassment, then you may report it as harassment. So, in shorter terms, I'm saying that anything you find as harassment may be reported.

[Jewel]

Terminus, when it comes down to it.. are you really offended by people discussing marijuana? I don't openly discuss it because I don't think it's something.. little kids should be discussing.

And when it comes to racial slurs used "humorously", someone, somewhere on the server is going to be offended by it. Period. That's why I don't think it should be allowed.

I like the idea of PG-13.[/font]

[ramonjordan]

Well where im from cursing was just a part of everyday life you here five year olds cursing and no

one is bothered by it the thing is not everyone is used to that so i have to remember to hold my

tongue even though i rarely curse because of the young one but i do agree that

if you are playing a game with so many people you should at least be a little bit cautious there is

bound to be cursing but i do agree that every is entitled to play this game but there has to be

understanding that there might be even worse circumstances than just hearing the n word

[Boss]

Everybody has a different moral compass, so it's a little difficult when it comes to defining whats fine and whats crossing the line.

However I think it's pretty easy to point out when someone is being hostile and someone is jokingly making-fun of a friend.

In my opinion, the only logical solution I see is to introduce a chat-filter system similar to iRO's.

[Jewel]

If it has an option to turn it on / off I'm all for it. It'd be nice for it to come enabled, and then have a command or NPC that can disable it for those who don't really care.

[Whyte Rose]

This is a picture based on M.C. Escher 's painting called "The Infinite Staircase".

This is this topic in a nutshell. As soon as we think we have this issue resolved, when we think we reached the end of this issue, there will be more to address. It's inevitably infinite.

The people on the stairs are the players in this game. Notice how they are all on different steps? That's where they all draw their lines. No matter where "we" as a small group that hardly represents the majority of the players draw this alleged line, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people. After all, we all come from different backgrounds and lived totally different lives. Somewhere in this server is someone who thinks "shut up" is inappropriate and for them having the line drawn at just no racial slurs or drugs is offensive to them. Then there's someone else who uses "inappropriate" words every other word and they will think drawing the line at no racial slurs violates their freedom of speech.

What I'm trying to get across is, no matter where we draw this line, it makes some feel uncomfortable while others feel overly happy. My opinion, there doesn't need to be a line drawn anywhere. That's why we have GMs and that's why GM have to be specially picked. Each GM has their line drawn on this infinite ladder somewhere and so its their opinion when someone crosses it.

GMs are the law enforcers here, they choose how they handle certain things. If they don't feel something was really offensive then they don't have to punish someone for it. Metaphorically, the rule that says "Immoral Speech" can not be used is like the speeding law. While some cops will give a person a ticket for speeding, some will let it slide and that's their choice because they are enforcing said law. Let me reinstate, GMs are the rule (law) enforcers here and how strict or lenient they decide to be is their choice.

Condensed version: Like the picture, opinions on this topic are infinite because everyone has a different line they would draw on the matter. That's why we have GMs to enforce the rule their way. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed but as soon as you think you've come to an accepted opinion, there will be someone that won't agree and you'll have to start climbing all over again.