Xtopher Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 In my opinion the guardian stones in WoE 2.0 need a bit of re-working. Current Guardian Stones: lvl: 90 ATK: 1~2 HP: 150,000,000 Range: 0~0~0 SP: 1 Size: Small Base EXP: 0 Race: Formless Job EXP: 0 Element: Neutral (Lv:1) DEF: 40 MDEF: 50 STR: 1 AGI: 1 VIT: 1 INT: 1 DEX: 1 LUK: 1 The rundown: Basically, you can use thanatos and ice-picks on the guardian stones because it has 40 defense. Thanatos/IP will do more damage than critical strikes. They have the same DEF as an emperium. This, isn't much of a problem. The problem and what makes the Guardian Stones imbalanced on our server is the fact that you can use skills on them. In iRO guardian stones drop fairly easily through a priest and champ lex asuraing the stone quickly. Other classes can drop them fairly fast through skill spamming. We have stones with 150m HP because we have high damage output through skills here (asura etc..). But, the main problem is the fact that we can heal the stone. In iRO heals are small... very small. Our heals here can reach up to 500k. If you've ever played priest you probably know that if you're being hit the sprite delay on heal disappears and you can spam it pretty much endlessly. Now, imagine a priest dealing 300-500k per heal being hit constantly (the guardian areas are constantly spammed with damage). The stone with 150m HP will take ages to break while being heal spammed. I know a lot of people will use asura damage as a counter argument, but it is incredibly difficult to get an asura on a defended guardian stone much less spam it. Most champions are there to kill the defenders and would never make it to the actual stone. The priests sole responsibility is to take advantage of the damage taken to kill the sprite delay of their heal and spam. Another factor is that if this stone breaks there is another one to destroy in only 10 minutes. The priest can go between camping stones healing them long enough so that the previous broken one can be repaired. You'll most likely never even reach the baracades. Keep in mind, I've only mentioned one priest doing this. The defending guild could very well assign 3-5 priests to just heal bombing guardian stones all WoE making it damn near impossible to break anything. Potential Solutions: 1. Disable skill usage on the stones/baracades. 2. Make them undead element so that they can not be healed. 3. Give Stones/Baracades GTB effect so that magic skills such as heal can not be used on them. At the moment it is more difficult to break a single guardian stone than any emperium. Guardian stones are supposed to be small inconveniences and hindrances to taking the castle, not the entire defense in themselves. Another Suggestion: The stones also need to be made larger. Maybe use a different sprite for them entirely if you can't make the actual stone larger. It is incredible difficult for anyone to click when you're weeding through 30 defenders. You could make it look like this guy: Though, I don't see why it would be so difficult to modify the size of a monster. 1
Bishop Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 Healing the stone is one of the only things priests are still used for. I don't see any reason at all to nerf the priest class even further. Also /ns doesn't work with healing the stone (last time I checked) so you'll need to hold down shift at all times to heal it which pretty much slows the healing. If you want a priest to heal 500k it would be easy to take them out 500k requires 4 basco. Means they can be stone cursed easily. Easy disable and easy kill once he's fully stoned as well. Potential Solutions: 1. Disable skill usage on the stones/baracades. 2. Make them undead element so that they can not be healed. 3. Give Stones/Baracades GTB effect so that magic skills such as heal can not be used on them. 1: Disagreed. The stones are meant to be this way. due to the stones and barricades other classes than Sin get more important because they get to break as well. 2: This would double all holy damage on it. Aspersio all the mellee classes and you'd break the stone in no-time. 3: Maybe for the stones but not for the barricades. Magic and asura are the main damage outputs vs the barricades.
Xtopher Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Posted January 17, 2012 Healing the stone is one of the only things priests are still used for. I don't see any reason at all to nerf the priest class even further. Also /ns doesn't work with healing the stone (last time I checked) so you'll need to hold down shift at all times to heal it which pretty much slows the healing. If you want a priest to heal 500k it would be easy to take them out 500k requires 4 basco. Means they can be stone cursed easily. Easy disable and easy kill once he's fully stoned as well. 1: Disagreed. The stones are meant to be this way. due to the stones and barricades other classes than Sin get more important because they get to break as well. 2: This would double all holy damage on it. Aspersio all the mellee classes and you'd break the stone in no-time. 3: Maybe for the stones but not for the barricades. Magic and asura are the main damage outputs vs the barricades. First of all this isn't a priest nerf. This is an suggestion to re-balance stone sustainability on our server. I don't know how long you've been playing this server or how much you know about me but I'm one of the few people who've mained priest and love the class. It is true, they have been pooped on in other areas but they are still a strong class. They are still highly useful in WoE/GvG/PvP. I would never suggest something that would "nerf" priests. The fact of the matter is that it isn't fair for a stone to be heal spammed for 300-500k. You go straight to the 500k example which is the extreme end of the spectrum. I know well what card allocation it takes to reach this healing capacity. A priest can still pop out 300-400k heals without that fourth bacsojin card. Secondly, these priests will likely have on GTB with devotion from a paladin, thus they CAN NOT be stone cursed. They'll go reductions/vit equips with heal amplification items thus making them tanky heal bombers. To address your shift+click heal statement: There are numerous keyboard/mouse macros which are legal to use ingame that make it very easy to overcome this. Even if your aren't using them since when is holding down the shift key and spamming another button difficult? I don't see how this "slows" healing. I don't believe that the stone would break in "no-time" with undead element. If we make the stone Undead (Lvl 2) it will take approximately the same damage an emperium would if you used a cursed water. I'll link the attribute table here encase this is confusing for you. http://ratemyserver.net/index.php?page=misc_table_attr
Bishop Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) No matter how you see it, it is a direct nerf to the priest class. You will remove the ability to heal the stone which makes them less useful in WoE. Thus it's a direct nerf to the class. Of course priests can do other things than just heal the stone but this is one of the essential things they are used for at this very moment. I've been playing here for quite some years. And I know you mained priests as one of the few players. I have mained it before as well and I agree they have certain areas in which they've been neglected. I'm not saying they are not useful, I'm saying that changing this will make them less useful than they are right now. I took the 500k as an example because you stated the amount. Also if the priest goes GTB style with devote, it would be quite easy to dish out high damage to the paladin. If not kill him easily. Yes priests can heal big amounts, and in my opinion that's part of what they do. Removing the ability to heal it completely would make defending almost impossible, considering the damage output on this server is extremely high. Having to press shift every single time you want to heal takes more time than just pressing one key. I'm assuming you would want to use some other skills than just heal as well. moving back to shift every single time and holding it down just to spam a skill slows things down. As for the used keyboard/mouse functions, Not everyone has such keyboards. I think the standard should still be a regular mouse and a regular keyboard for most players. encase this is confusing for you. Dont talk to me like I don't know Chris. The attribute table is very easy to understand and I pretty much know the numbers without your source. The point being is that the emp can break within a few seconds. These stones (without the ability to be healed) will break even faster than that. And these stones are NOT supposed to be just a hinderance. The way WoE2.0 was made on official these stones were/are the main defence mechanism of the castle. Once these were down hell broke lose for the defending guild. The barricades are there to give time to rebuild the stones. As the stones are supposed to be the main battlefield of WoE 2.0. The stones are the main source of defence for the invurnerability of the barricade and the spawning of addtional guardians. Edited January 17, 2012 by Bishop
.Kyuubi. Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Dont talk to me like I don't know Chris. lolumad. you can /ns to remove the difficulty in holding shift. The emp absolutely cannot break in a few seconds, even without heals it takes a considerable amount of time, 5-10minutes to break with a proper defense, at the moment it takes 30mins or so to break a single stone. I Yes priests can heal big amounts, and in my opinion that's part of what they do. Removing the ability to heal it completely would make defending almost impossible, considering the damage output on this server is extremely high. Killing a priest is almost impossible, especially with the reductions woe gives. A priest that goes full vit/int with gtb skolls is almost impossible to kill, yes, impossible. They can easily tank a stone curse full asura with x2 attack on gtb and skolls and be hardly scratched. I would know, Chris does this all the time. You can't say that you can deal massive damage to kill the devo paly (which you can) but then you have the massive tank priest to deal with, I myself have done nothing but focus priests during WoE and they do not die. Edited January 17, 2012 by .Kyuubi.
Drax Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 The way WoE2.0 was made on official these stones were/are the main defence mechanism of the castle. Once these were down hell broke lose for the defending guild. Uh not true at all, i have played iRO for several years and still even do play when the stones go down that does not mean you will lose the castle their is plenty of other ways to defend against attackers. And the stones are not meant to be turtled for the entire WoE you can easily defend for 10 mins with 500k heals on it every cast even if you do break one it will just be turtled until the other can be repaired and its repeated through all of WoE, yes we have high dmg output but things like asura wont be even casted on the stone for one, theres to many people around it to click and 2, theres to much stunlock to even cast asura
.Kyuubi. Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 The way WoE 2.0 is now, there's so much defense that it's retarded. first you have 2 guardian stones that need to be broken at 150mil hp each, after those break you have 3 sets of barracades, each single barracade has 400million hp, which is almost tripple the amount of a guardian stone and can still be healed, individually yes, but can still be healed and cannot be thana'd. and while all of that is going on, you can have guardian stones repaired and that stops the offense and makes them go back to square 1. After all of that is said and done you then have to break the Emp, and still be worried about the guardian stones coming up again in time to stop you there.
Xtopher Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Posted January 17, 2012 No matter how you see it, it is a direct nerf to the priest class. You will remove the ability to heal the stone which makes them less useful in WoE. Thus it's a direct nerf to the class. Of course priests can do other things than just heal the stone but this is one of the essential things they are used for at this very moment. I've been playing here for quite some years. And I know you mained priests as one of the few players. I have mained it before as well and I agree they have certain areas in which they've been neglected. I'm not saying they are not useful, I'm saying that changing this will make them less useful than they are right now. I took the 500k as an example because you stated the amount. Also if the priest goes GTB style with devote, it would be quite easy to dish out high damage to the paladin. If not kill him easily. Yes priests can heal big amounts, and in my opinion that's part of what they do. Removing the ability to heal it completely would make defending almost impossible, considering the damage output on this server is extremely high. Having to press shift every single time you want to heal takes more time than just pressing one key. I'm assuming you would want to use some other skills than just heal as well. moving back to shift every single time and holding it down just to spam a skill slows things down. As for the used keyboard/mouse functions, Not everyone has such keyboards. I think the standard should still be a regular mouse and a regular keyboard for most players. Dont talk to me like I don't know Chris. The attribute table is very easy to understand and I pretty much know the numbers without your source. The point being is that the emp can break within a few seconds. These stones (without the ability to be healed) will break even faster than that. And these stones are NOT supposed to be just a hinderance. The way WoE2.0 was made on official these stones were/are the main defence mechanism of the castle. Once these were down hell broke lose for the defending guild. The barricades are there to give time to rebuild the stones. As the stones are supposed to be the main battlefield of WoE 2.0. The stones are the main source of defence for the invurnerability of the barricade and the spawning of addtional guardians. I don't know what you know and what you don't. I have no idea who you or nor the credentials you have. Different GMs specialize in different areas. None of you know everything about everything. Just because you're a GM doesn't mean I'm to expect you know everything about the game. No one does... I'm not trying to be condescending. The fact of the matter is that you were wrong. You said that it would blast down in a matter of seconds because you believed the elemental bonus would be huge, which is false. It would be similar to that of an Emp and, like Drax said, a well defended emp takes a lot of effort and time to take down (coordinating ecalls/breaks/etc...). I think what you're stating is more of an indirect nerf to priests, not a direct one. A direct nerf would be say nerfing priest weapons/skills/cards used directly. I'm not talking about nerfing the priest, I'm talking about balancing guardian stone sustainability. Nerfing the heal buff on bacsojins/highness would be a direct priest nerf. Changing the element of the guardian stone isn't. Let me use an example. If paladins were capable of devoing the stone (Clearly OP) and we removed that capability it would definitely make paladins over-all less useful in WoE 2.0. Does that make it a bad decision? No, because it is clearly imbalanced to begin with. It wouldn't be a direct nerf to the class like say removing the skill devotion... More of an indirect nerf through balancing. Yes, they will be less useful in WoE 2.0. Of course they will. That doesn't mean that the current state is balanced. This heal bombing is "essential" at the moment because it's imbalanced. It's the easy way out. The safest and most over powered way to defend. If priests weren't allowed to heal bomb it wouldn't ruin castle defense at all. If you've ever been to WoE 2.0 you should know that at any given time the stone being attacked has approximately 20-40 people defending it. These people are fully capable of holding off attackers long enough to resurrect any broken stones throughout WoE 2.0. Being able to spam heal on a stone for 300-500k is just unnecessary and over powered sustain. No one will ever even get to the baracades.
Bishop Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 lolumad. you can /ns to remove the difficulty in holding shift. The emp absolutely cannot break in a few seconds, even without heals it takes a considerable amount of time, 5-10minutes to break with a proper defense, at the moment it takes 30mins or so to break a single stone. I'm not mad, I just see no need for anyone to talk descended to a fellow member in a perfectly normal arguement. Also last time I checked the NS does not work on the emp/stones. If it does then my bad. At our current WoE 1.0 the emp can break in less than 2-3 minutes and this is while priests can heal it with sanc. Meaning the WoE 2.0 stone breaks faster than this if it can not be healed + half the defence because there's 2 stones. You could say half the attackers as well but there's multiple guilds attacking and only one is guarding. Besides the one guarding guild will have to split up even if there's only 3-4 people attacking the other stone. Killing a priest is almost impossible, especially with the reductions woe gives. A priest that goes full vit/int with gtb skolls is almost impossible to kill, yes, impossible. They can easily tank a stone curse full asura with x2 attack on gtb and skolls and be hardly scratched. I would know, Chris does this all the time. You can't say that you can deal massive damage to kill the devo paly (which you can) but then you have the massive tank priest to deal with, I myself have done nothing but focus priests during WoE and they do not die. Gtb and skolls will be a 100% kill with x2 attack asura. If they wear full reductions like poring tower hat you can freeze him. and he wont be unfrozen while devo'd. Frozen + 2xatk asura vs gtb and skolls. Not a single player would survive that. I think you're quite exaggerating here. Priests can be tanks yes. But gtb and double skolls leave them extremely vurnerable to asura strike. Specially if they are not devo'd they would be able to get one shotted by a decent champ. Uh not true at all, i have played iRO for several years and still even do play when the stones go down that does not mean you will lose the castle their is plenty of other ways to defend against attackers. And the stones are not meant to be turtled for the entire WoE you can easily defend for 10 mins with 500k heals on it every cast even if you do break one it will just be turtled until the other can be repaired and its repeated through all of WoE, yes we have high dmg output but things like asura wont be even casted on the stone for one, theres to many people around it to click and 2, theres to much stunlock to even cast asura I never said it means you lose the castle. I said it means hell breaks lose as the castle becomes vurnerable and way easier to take and the restoring of stones is set into progress immediately because it is the main source of defence. Yes I agree you can defend a stone for long as it is right now but I dont think disabling the option to heal it completely would be the right solution to this problem. The stones would die immensely fast without them being healed and recreating them would be nearly useless. The way WoE 2.0 is now, there's so much defense that it's retarded. first you have 2 guardian stones that need to be broken at 150mil hp each, after those break you have 3 sets of barracades, each single barracade has 400million hp, which is almost tripple the amount of a guardian stone and can still be healed, individually yes, but can still be healed and cannot be thana'd. and while all of that is going on, you can have guardian stones repaired and that stops the offense and makes them go back to square 1. After all of that is said and done you then have to break the Emp, and still be worried about the guardian stones coming up again in time to stop you there. The first piece of defence is the hardest. However once the stones are down and the first barricade is down. Even IF they repair the stones. the only barricade that will be invernerable is the very first one. the others can still be broken when the guardian stones are up. And the emp can be broken as well. So once the first barricade is down things get ugly for the defending party. @topic overall. Even though I do not agree with removing the ability to heal the stone. I do agree it's too easy to defend right now because it takes too long to break the stones. Therefore I would be suggesting the following 3 changes and would like to hear your opinion on it. I'm pretty sure they are doable : 1: Half the hp for the current guardian stone. Leave the ability to heal them. 2: Reduce the cooldown of repairing the guardian stone by 1/4 or 1/2 as well. This way it will be easier to kill the stones and get to the barricades. While it would still be worth re-summoning as the cooldown to resummon is shorter and it does add new defences once summoned. 3: Increase the size of the guardian stones or replace their sprites to make them easier to target.
Drax Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 You're not thinking big pictrure, atm they have ONE priest imagine if they had even 3? thats 1.5million HP everytime they click once and yea even if you do manage to kill them they can come back in less than 10 seconds and its like they never died.
.Kyuubi. Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 I still don't think you understand the full effectiveness of turtling around the guardian stones. currently it is overpowered. Think about whats happening now, its incredibly difficult to break with only 1 priest. It's meant for all hell to break loose once the guardian stones break, thats what woe 2.0 is supposed to be. You break the stone, and fuckin satan fucks you in the ass mercilessly.
supream Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 just target the classes that cause the biggest problems for you instead of just attacking everyone you see. that's how we got it from you the first time. and get more champs to asura the stones and barricades. if i recall when you guys had it last me, and juan, but mainly me broke one stone and the barricades going to the emp in 6 min. you guys should remember this.
Xtopher Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) just target the classes that cause the biggest problems for you instead of just attacking everyone you see. that's how we got it from you the first time. and get more champs to asura the stones and barricades. if i recall when you guys had it last me, and juan, but mainly me broke one stone and the barricades going to the emp in 6 min. you guys should remember this. You make it sound like it's easy to ignore 20-40 other people attacking you. Sorry but not every guild has those numbers. The last time Ghost had the castle they had like 15-20 people online. They were severely overwhelmed in numbers. Two of the guild leaders (Yukumaru & Mello) weren't even online. Edited January 17, 2012 by Xtopher
.Kyuubi. Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 just target the classes that cause the biggest problems for you instead of just attacking everyone you see. that's how we got it from you the first time. and get more champs to asura the stones and barricades. if i recall when you guys had it last me, and juan, but mainly me broke one stone and the barricades going to the emp in 6 min. you guys should remember this. If im remembering correctly, I believe that 3/4 of our guild (including leaders) where offline that entire woe 2.0. So your statement is irrelevant to what we're doing here
supream Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 na i still remember you guys still had aggressive with you when we did this. irrelevant you say? arent you guys complaining about how hard it is to destroy these stones? i just stated how easy it was for me to do it when you put your mind to it instead of clicking whatever you can target.
Bishop Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Let me use an example. If paladins were capable of devoing the stone (Clearly OP) and we removed that capability it would definitely make paladins over-all less useful in WoE 2.0. Does that make it a bad decision? No, because it is clearly imbalanced to begin with. It wouldn't be a direct nerf to the class like say removing the skill devotion... More of an indirect nerf through balancing. This as well could be considered a direct nerf to the paladin class. As their devotion skill just got nerfed by not being able to devote a main target. <- that's one way to look at it. However I understand you do not intend to nerf the priest class, yet due to this change they do get nerfed 'indirectly'. Yes, they will be less useful in WoE 2.0. Of course they will. That doesn't mean that the current state is balanced. This heal bombing is "essential" at the moment because it's imbalanced. It's the easy way out. The safest and most over powered way to defend. If priests weren't allowed to heal bomb it wouldn't ruin castle defense at all. If you've ever been to WoE 2.0 you should know that at any given time the stone being attacked has approximately 20-40 people defending it. These people are fully capable of holding off attackers long enough to resurrect any broken stones throughout WoE 2.0. Being able to spam heal on a stone for 300-500k is just unnecessary and over powered sustain. No one will ever even get to the baracades. Never did I state that the current state is balanced. I did state that removing the option to heal it completely is not the right way to go (imo). And yes I've been to WoE2.0 quite some times. And I know it's hard for you to take the castle but completely removing the ability to heal the stones is too much if you ask me. Adding : One option that I can consider to agree with is giving it the gtb effect (will render priests useless with healing and no dmg from magic skills anymore either.) However this would give chemists another way to support during WoE by being the only class to heal the stone + they would need a link at all times or a boost to their aoe heal. Or can chemists be too much of a tank too according you to guys ? Or would the need for a link and the use of potions make up for the advantage their heal gives ? (Btw, I'm stil not sure if I'd agree to the gtb effect. But it's one of the only options I see left other than leaving things as they are or nerfing the neglected priest itself even more.) Edited January 17, 2012 by Bishop
Xtopher Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Posted January 17, 2012 na i still remember you guys still had aggressive with you when we did this. irrelevant you say? arent you guys complaining about how hard it is to destroy these stones? i just stated how easy it was for me to do it when you put your mind to it instead of clicking whatever you can target. At the time Aggressive was highly inactive. Also, Ghost/Aggressive never used the priest bacsojin heal bomb strategy.... We're talking about two different circumstances. Do you really think 30 people are simply goofying around and NOT trying to break the stone? People are doing everything they can just to get there. If they actually get there they get annihilated pretty quickly and any damage they do gets healed.
supream Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 ill agree on this, making the stones bigger. thats fair in all ways. i cant stand it when opponents pallies and our pallies stand on top of the stone to prevent people from attacking it. to me this is not how the game should be played. if you want to stop it from getting attacked then stop them from getting there, dont use cheap tactics.
.Kyuubi. Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) This as well could be considered a direct nerf to the paladin class. As their devotion skill just got nerfed by not being able to devote a main target. <- that's one way to look at it. are you stupid? na i still remember you guys still had aggressive with you when we did this. irrelevant you say? arent you guys complaining about how hard it is to destroy these stones? i just stated how easy it was for me to do it when you put your mind to it instead of clicking whatever you can target. aggressive has never been a game breaking factor in anything. Edited January 17, 2012 by .Kyuubi.
supream Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 saying your stupid to a moderator might not be the best idea. aggressive was a big factor when you guys had 50-60 people vs 20-25 people a few months ago.
.Kyuubi. Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) saying your stupid to a moderator might not be the best idea. aggressive was a big factor when you guys had 50-60 people vs 20-25 people a few months ago.its a question, not calling him stupid, lern2reed i do what i want. Edited January 17, 2012 by .Kyuubi.
Drax Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) how about you stay on topic mike. Edited January 17, 2012 by Drax
Ferocious Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) saying your stupid to a moderator might not be the best idea. aggressive was a big factor when you guys had 50-60 people vs 20-25 people a few months ago "Few months ago" See man, there is alot of reason why you can't compare current 2.0 to before because, Ghost and Aggressive are not even active anyways. Chris took an example to make Bishop understand his point. But seems like Bishop didn't get it or something... Edited January 17, 2012 by Ferocious
Bishop Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) are you stupid? aggressive has never been a game breaking factor in anything. Actually, a direct nerf to a skill is a direct nerf to a class. Easy as that. It's like saying that disabling the Kaizel skill in LMS is not a nerf to the soul linker because it is in the sake of balance? It doesn't matter in what "sake" the changes are made. A nerf to skill from a specific class is a nerf to the class itself. Common sense is what I prefer to call it. instead of stupid. Now please get back on topic or if you must continue with smart comments you may PM me. I've given my opinion on this matter. If you consider me stupid because I disagree or see things differently then so be it. My point stands and I'll leave my opinion as it is. Edited January 17, 2012 by Bishop
.Kyuubi. Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 Common sense is what I prefer to call it. instead of stupid. Now please get back on topic or if you must continue with smart comments you may PM me. I've given my opinion on this matter. If you consider me stupid because I disagree or see things differently then so be it. My point stands and I'll leave my opinion as it is. i do what i want.
