Bishop Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Not all classes can really afford to dispel/dec agi. I still think 45-50k is a bit much. Given the HIGH spam-ability and the high amount of people using programs to spam faster lower hp classes (Champ/Clown/SG/Mages) will drop them quickly. CT just requires cart boost. Asura requires zen+fury+zen+asura+ygg rinse repeat to spam. CT is MUCH more spam-able than asura will never be. Even Yukumaru can't spam asuras as fast as the noobiest WS can spam CT. I just don't know if a class should be spamming a skill that does 1/3-1/4 of some class's HP without kiels and while wearing redux. Honestly, I think any class can afford to use dispell or 1 ifrit ring for the easiest solution of guagmire. quagmire even goes through gtb and renders CT completely useless. I dont think you can compare that to champ in any way. All they have to do is use gtb vs dispell and they can spam freely. Asura does (and always will) do more damage than cart termination and can not be disabled as easy as CT. CT is supposed to be instant. Asura is supposed to have casting time.. Hence why CT should be faster.. I also disagree with your opinion that cartboost is the only skill required for CT.. I mean lets be honest here. Using cart termination without your full buffs won't get you anywhere close to decent damage. So the WS buffs are basically requirements for CT as well. I think 45-50k is fine damage. Snipers deal pretty much 3/4, if not the same damage in one focussed arrow strike, from miles away WITH the ability to hit multiple targets for the same damage. And Focussed arrow strike can not be countered as easy as CT. So I say give it a try with the stated nerfs and boost CT up to 45-50k a hit on regular reductions (aka fshield with usakoring).
Dudu Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Well now that i used a WS i know how this thing works. Bishop, depending on the situation, if you are getting continuously dispelled, the best way is to keep that cart boost up and start mashing around, since CT is soo freakkin spamable, the dmg diff wont matter, plus is just around 1 or 3k of diffenrence, coming from a 25k-30k CT. So basically, im agree with the CT boost, the TT nerf, and the REMOVAL of Phenuma w/e, theres tons of skills that WS's can use as advantage ( Maybe an autocastin Phenuma ) Or give them something like Endure, so if they get ranged, pops endure and goes back to the enemy and CT the shit out of em. Dudu.
Bishop Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Bishop, depending on the situation, if you are getting continuously dispelled, the best way is to keep that cart boost up and start mashing around, since CT is soo freakkin spamable, the dmg diff wont matter, plus is just around 1 or 3k of diffenrence, coming from a 25k-30k CT. Using maximum power thrust nearly doubles the damage Edu. Without that you wont be dishing out proper damage and thats way bigger than a 3k difference. :mellow:
Dudu Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Ya man but, i rather keep spamming with no buffs than tankin dmg, buffing, and attacking.
Xtopher Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) Honestly, I think any class can afford to use dispell or 1 ifrit ring for the easiest solution of guagmire. quagmire even goes through gtb and renders CT completely useless. I dont think you can compare that to champ in any way. All they have to do is use gtb vs dispell and they can spam freely. Asura does (and always will) do more damage than cart termination and can not be disabled as easy as CT. CT is supposed to be instant. Asura is supposed to have casting time.. Hence why CT should be faster.. I also disagree with your opinion that cartboost is the only skill required for CT.. I mean lets be honest here. Using cart termination without your full buffs won't get you anywhere close to decent damage. So the WS buffs are basically requirements for CT as well. I think 45-50k is fine damage. Snipers deal pretty much 3/4, if not the same damage in one focussed arrow strike, from miles away WITH the ability to hit multiple targets for the same damage. And Focussed arrow strike can not be countered as easy as CT. So I say give it a try with the stated nerfs and boost CT up to 45-50k a hit on regular reductions (aka fshield with usakoring). Not all classes can wear ifrit ring. And you honestly expect everyone to pop a valk R in their weapons (Reducing their damage) JUST to counter whitesmiths? Star gladiators don't even use weapons and the TK branches can't use ifrit rings. Snipers are meant to be ranged nukers... its the reason they don't have shields in iRO and because of this snipers are easy to nerf. Professors and wizzards have less than 180k hp, clowns run about 200-220k, star glads are around 200k, champs sit at 150-220k depending on shoes. I just think 50k spams while wearing no kiels and sacreds is a bit imbalanced. Smiths are pretty tanky seeing how they don't have to use 3 kiels. Edited October 19, 2011 by Xtopher
.Kyuubi. Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) Not all classes can wear ifrit ring. And you honestly expect everyone to pop a valk R in their weapons (Reducing their damage) JUST to counter whitesmiths? Star gladiators don't even use weapons and the TK branches can't use ifrit rings. Snipers are meant to be ranged nukers... its the reason they don't have shields in iRO and because of this snipers are easy to nerf. Professors and wizzards have less than 180k hp, clowns run about 200-220k, star glads are around 200k, champs sit at 150-220k depending on shoes. I just think 50k spams while wearing no kiels and sacreds is a bit imbalanced. Smiths are pretty tanky seeing how they don't have to use 3 kiels. I agree completely. In my honest opinion I think 50k damage from CT is too much, there are so many players in this game that have just under or at 200k hp and it would cause them to do massive qq about how OP Cart Termination is. Im sure people would agree if the median damage for Cart Termination would be in the 30k-40k range (with the chance to break armor this damage would dominate imo). Think about it, if a whitesmith came into pvp and consistently dropped you in 4 hits, wouldn't you cry about a nerf in the forums (kinda like how whats happening now lol). Just remember to replace Pneuma with Endure so we still have a chance at rushing ranged fighters. Edited October 20, 2011 by .Kyuubi.
Bishop Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Not all classes can wear ifrit ring. And you honestly expect everyone to pop a valk R in their weapons (Reducing their damage) JUST to counter whitesmiths? Star gladiators don't even use weapons and the TK branches can't use ifrit rings. Snipers are meant to be ranged nukers... its the reason they don't have shields in iRO and because of this snipers are easy to nerf. Professors and wizzards have less than 180k hp, clowns run about 200-220k, star glads are around 200k, champs sit at 150-220k depending on shoes. I just think 50k spams while wearing no kiels and sacreds is a bit imbalanced. Smiths are pretty tanky seeing how they don't have to use 3 kiels. Only the taekwon class cant wear ifrit ring. The rest can. Star glads can wear books so they could dispell if they wanted to or they can use valk hat. and no not all classes would have to put valk R card in their weapon just to counter whitesmiths. Gear switching is an essential part of pvp. Learn to switch your weapon to dispell and/or strip. and switch back to attack. Besides that we also have valk hat which procs immensely much. Just saying snipers are dealing the same damage at immense range, yes they are easy to nerf. But I dont see people complain about the damage they dish out. And if you're going to say their damage is easy to reduce because it's ranged.. You'd be changing gears for them wouldn't you ? Why would you have to change gears vs snipers but not vs Whitesmiths ? Same goes for GTB. You change gears to fight wizards or profs, why not change gears to fight Whitesmiths ? I can agree 50k might be high, but it's SO easy to disable their damage by dispelling them or using ifrit ring, or cast quagmire(as wiz) or keep them on range. The damage should be high. Im sure people would agree if the median damage for Cart Termination would be in the 30k-40k range (with the chance to break armor this damage would dominate imo). 30k damage will not kill ANYONE that is smart enough to keep a bit of distance or use anything to cancel the whitesmith or even just ygg properly. You're saying to remove pneuma, make them vurnerable for range , nerf their range skill AND let their main spell do about 3/4 the damage the TT does right now ? Sorry but that's honestly just rediculous and will bring WS back to the level they were before the thor hammer got released. Ps. CT itself (even with meltdown) cant break armor. you'll have to normally hit them or cart revolution. Think about it, if a whitesmith came into pvp and consistently dropped you in 4 hits, wouldn't you cry about a nerf in the forums (kinda like how whats happening now lol). Just remember to replace Pneuma with Endure so we still have a chance at rushing ranged fighters. I'm not crying about the way WS are right now in any single way. I'm just giving my point of view. I dont have much trouble with the current WS class, they are still beatable but I can agree to them being a bit OP and them playing different than they should be. Thats why I'm posting here. and IF these changes were to happen I want to make sure the WS class will still be decent and wont get back to the way they used to be.
Dudu Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Super Novices cant still wear Ifrit Rings.
Bishop Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Yet they have other ways to dispell, as in a weapon or a headgear. But yes smartness xD supernovices cant use ifrits at this current time.
supream Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 50k is to much. you gotta take every class into consideration when you make changes. 50 on shields and 110k to sinx that dont use shields. seems fair right? my lord knight dosent even do 50k with bowling bash. and btw ws never out damaged them(not in a single attack, but maybe in the speed the put damage out) on the official server.
Bishop Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 an LK can do 25k hits with BB on a shield user. And since BB does 2 hits you do actually reach 50k aside from that LK's tanking capabiility is WAY higher than whitesmiths atm. Hence why their damage output should be lower too. and btw ws never out damaged them(not in a single attack, but maybe in the speed the put damage out) on the official server. That completely depends on the build he/she is in. Besides atm DS does even to more damage than CT. On official CT does about 3x the dmg from DS. And CT on official is about even with bowling bash. However CT's main quality on official is their high stun chance on CT. And since that is completely removed on this server a higher damage boost should sufficient considering this is the whitesmiths MAIN damage skill. 40-45k is really the lowest I could imagine to buff it to. Cause any lower than that will bring WS back to the way they were.
supream Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 what lk do you play? i do about 40-44k max with bb. unless they put on something that makes me do more damage
Sorrow Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Well if in the time it takes to fire one asura, a WS can fire 3 CTs, while a full Asura can reach as much as 150k(i'm being generous here considering you can nerf that OP shiz THIS much from a nicely geared champ) on full reductions against it and 3 CTs of 50 dmg each, then i'd say that's balanced :D i do believe you have time to press the ygg button at least once in the middle of the 3 CTs there...with asura you get all at once, no chance to ygg in between! xP People don't compare BB with CT, CT is a skill that belongs to a Transcendent job and has more use requizites(buffs-money) than BB, it is SUPPOSED to be more powerful than a BB just like BB is supposed to be stronger than Magnum Break!
.Kyuubi. Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 Well if in the time it takes to fire one asura, a WS can fire 3 CTs, while a full Asura can reach as much as 150k(i'm being generous here considering you can nerf that OP shiz THIS much from a nicely geared champ) on full reductions against it and 3 CTs of 50 dmg each, then i'd say that's balanced :D i do believe you have time to press the ygg button at least once in the middle of the 3 CTs there...with asura you get all at once, no chance to ygg in between! xP People don't compare BB with CT, CT is a skill that belongs to a Transcendent job and has more use requizites(buffs-money) than BB, it is SUPPOSED to be more powerful than a BB just like BB is supposed to be stronger than Magnum Break! (i think bb is also a transcendant job class skill =o). Well, IF these changes are going to happen then i'd like to be the first to test the damage out. and a Champ has the biggest advantage vs a whitesmith.
Sorrow Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 BB is a Knight Skill(Knight<Lord Knight) :3 And well, the only class in this game that has an edge vs champs are the paladins XD We must always remember that if a change gets too out of hand it can be re-done, just like it appears this change is gonna be re-done! xD But yeah needs testing, specially from a player of the class :3
.Kyuubi. Posted October 20, 2011 Report Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) right so i suggest that this thread gets locked to prevent anymore un needed arguements. We (the majority) pretty much agree to Remove Pneuma and replace it with an auto cast lvl 10 Endure, Reduction of the Throw Tomohawk Skill by 500% (just estimating) and the increase damage of High Speed Cart Ram until damage exceeds 40k (tops out at 50k on usaku frigs+gr tao) Edited October 20, 2011 by .Kyuubi.
Pancho Posted November 23, 2011 Report Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) I read up to the 5th page and then I quit reading. We're all worried about buffing CT damage correct? Earlier someone suggested buff the attack more, but that would also effect TT. I believe staff also mentioned that % modifiers for CT seem to do very little because it's main damage modifier comes from the weight of the cart. So wouldn't an easy solution be to make Thor's Hammer increase the weight of the cart? This way increasing the cart weight only applies to WS who need the weight to be maxed for CT damage, so they wouldn't stuff it with yggs and such like a creotor would. I do agree with removing Lvl 1 pnuema and replacing it with Lvl 10 endure and of course the final modification being that the weapon adds some sort of cart weight boost. Of course testing to see how much weight it adds so that CT does significant damage. PS. I totally agree with Bishop. I play 99/70's server as well and the main reason CT is their main damage output is because once they're close enough, if you're stupid enough to let them get close, with the first or second CT landed YOU will get stunned asap and once stunned they finish you off with more CT's. That is the whole purpose of WS being close range and using CT, because once the gap is closed they will stun you, and finish you off. A white smith has two weaknesses on any 99/70 server and iRO as well, that's a Prof who can spam dispell and make it useless and a champ who can decrease agi and kite it with TSS and eventually asura. It's been known for WS to be the biggest tank in iRO, the only class possible of tanking a full asura champion, hence why it's biggest class weakness. Back on topic, since stunning is impossible on this server cart termination loses it's biggest edge, which is keeping the enemy in close range for CT with stun. Edited November 23, 2011 by Pancho
Xtopher Posted November 24, 2011 Author Report Posted November 24, 2011 I think everyone agreed on removing pnuema, adding endure, reducing the Throw Tomahawk damage, and increasing CT damage. Editing their cart weight limit is a skill source edit I believe, which is against the rules to suggestion. The GM team doesn't like editing existing skills because it could have negative ramifications on other things. (This is how I understand it, I could be wrong.)
dadron3 Posted December 2, 2011 Report Posted December 2, 2011 (edited) Here: Pros: 1: The only reason why Whitesmith is such a good class is only because they have a high ygg capacity. Letting them hold to about 400-500 seeds. Tops. 2: They have both Tomahawk to penetrate with range, and also a close melee skill. (Cart Termination) 3: Very well rounded and versatile, can tank a decent amount of damage. Cons: 1: Once they're debuffed they have to recast all their skills all over again, thus reducing their damage. 2: They can tank damage, but most whitesmith health are mostly as a minimum of 210-230k. 3: Someone who abuses a maeros card on a whitesmith fucks them over terribly. A well played whitesmith can take on anyone, only because of their yggs. But just by forcing them into GTB, there is going to be a huge yggl drainage to them. So, my best approval for this is to leave everything as is, BUT taking away the pnuema effect. Done deal. +1 Kouch know's what he speak. RO Buddha. Edited December 2, 2011 by dadron3
Xtopher Posted December 2, 2011 Author Report Posted December 2, 2011 @dadron3 & kuoch A well played whitesmith can take on anyone, only because of their yggs. But just by forcing them into GTB, there is going to be a huge yggl drainage to them. So, my best approval for this is to leave everything as is, BUT taking away the pnuema effect. Done deal. I don't think the fact that you HAVE to force a class to GTB in order to kill them is balanced. Whats more, they can also force YOU to gtb with coma weapons. What happens then? 100k tomahawks.
