Lets Talk About Whitesmiths

[Xtopher]

shows how much you actually know about the class. if you decrease agi on a whitesmith it doesnt matter what he does, without his adrenaline rush (which does infact get removed when their agi is decreased) the ws cant spam shit we have to rebuff and and waste yggs while we do so. a player that uses ifrit rings against a whitesmith just for quagmire will shit all over a smith any day.

That's if you're even close enough to get hit with quagmire. Most smiths just run around at a distance throwing tomahawks and pnuemaing.

I keep hearing about having to rebuff like its so hard and takes so much time. All you have to do is push a few buttons and your buffs pop back on... It's not like they're targeted buffs. And with not having to use kiels you can afford space for things like a pharaoh card.

News flash: Throw Tomahawk requires 1sp to use. Cart term doesn't require FBH's so you have a shit ton of SP to use.... SP usage is not a problem here.

[supream]

adrenalin rush increases stupid aspd not your spam rate. just put more stats into agi. that way if you do get de agi you will still have enough aspd to spam tomahawk. if your wasting yggs on rebuffing it further proves my point on how people are just using throw tomahawk and not using cart term cause rebuffing wouldnt drain enough sp to make you use a ygg if you were using forgers. and if i recall ive played every class to its full potential and was a challenge to anyone.

[.Kyuubi.]

That's if you're even close enough to get hit with quagmire. Most smiths just run around at a distance throwing tomahawks and pnuemaing.

I keep hearing about having to rebuff like its so hard and takes so much time. All you have to do is push a few buttons and your buffs pop back on... It's not like they're targeted buffs. And with not having to use kiels you can afford space for things like a pharaoh card.

News flash: Throw Tomahawk requires 1sp to use. Cart term doesn't require FBH's so you have a shit ton of SP to use.... SP usage is not a problem here.

1.closing the gap on a whitesmith is not hard to do at all, its not like they can snap or have super run speed without speed pots.

2.i agree with this, i vote for the sp usage on both these skills be increased just little bit

adrenalin rush increases stupid aspd not your spam rate.

right and a whitesmiths spam rate is affected by his attack speed, now if you decrease agi and the smiths aspd drops down to say 189 (just an example) his spam rate would go down significantly. so sure u max your agi to have 195 without adrenaline rush, it still wont matter if u get agi decreased, understand?

Edited October 13, 2011 by .Kyuubi.

[supream]

do what i go test your aspd with de agi and add stats to your agi so you have enough to stay at 195 or use speed pots. even so all you gotta do is press one button to get rid of it which is cart boost.

Edited October 13, 2011 by supream

[Seraphine]

My opinion:

Reduce Throw Tomahawk by 40-30%(total) way too strong, easily spammable and deals high damage.

Increase High Speed Cart Ram by 20%

Remove the ability to cast pneuma and give it a 1% chance to autocast or Endure, honestly Xtopher is right they now have a ranged skill Throw Tomahawk so they shouldn't be able to autocast pneuma(which blocks ranged attacks)

[HealHard]

ok lets add some tests.....

Character: Whitesmith with Thor's: 283+157 str. Inca+TG+TG+skel worker, 2x FBH, Converter, + Captain hat!.

Target: Champ (2x Noxiouses in cloak, fluffy Wigs, Frigg+usako).

Result: 29k dmg

--Changes: champ with assump(from blue ifrit ring)

--Result: 19200 dmg.

W/O capt hat:

- 23k on tg tg skel inca W/O assump from ifrit

--15k w/ assump from ifrit

Now lets test Inca + tg +tg + Phree weapon (which WS normally use):

- 25k dmg W/O assump

--17k dmg with assump

W/O capt hat:

-19k w/o assump

--13k with assump

And once again, WS can not properly use displess/ ifrits themself. so once you got assump it will last for a long time. Moreover, you can use pneuma yourself vs tomahawk. Damage is not that outstanding. Ranged dispell from VR doesnt even trigger using Tomahawk.

WS can be easily forced to GTB with dispell/magic attk.

WS does not need increase of Thow Tomahawk skill SP cost because with 2x FBH full mana pool goes on 1 rebuff. With GTB WS needs to ygg while rebuffing!!!

The only thing that might be changed is useable pneuma. Make it autocast and this will be quite enough. Other possible variant is adding endure as someone said or maybe adding some chance to trigger Kyrie.

[Veralynn]

ok lets add some tests.....

Character: Whitesmith with Thor's: 283+157 str. Inca+TG+TG+skel worker, 2x FBH, Converter, + Captain hat!.

Target: Champ (2x Noxiouses in cloak, fluffy Wigs, Frigg+usako).

Result: 29k dmg

--Changes: champ with assump(from blue ifrit ring)

--Result: 19200 dmg.

W/O capt hat:

- 23k on tg tg skel inca W/O assump from ifrit

--15k w/ assump from ifrit

Now lets test Inca + tg +tg + Phree weapon (which WS normally use):

- 25k dmg W/O assump

--17k dmg with assump

W/O capt hat:

-19k w/o assump

--13k with assump

And once again, WS can not properly use displess/ ifrits themself. so once you got assump it will last for a long time. Moreover, you can use pneuma yourself vs tomahawk. Damage is not that outstanding. Ranged dispell from VR doesnt even trigger using Tomahawk.

WS can be easily forced to GTB with dispell/magic attk.

WS does not need increase of Thow Tomahawk skill SP cost because with 2x FBH full mana pool goes on 1 rebuff. With GTB WS needs to ygg while rebuffing!!!

The only thing that might be changed is useable pneuma. Make it autocast and this will be quite enough. Other possible variant is adding endure as someone said or maybe adding some chance to trigger Kyrie.

Voting is down, kinda hard to get a pair of fluffy wings lol. I did 45-49k on my WS, only a few people went out of their way to reduce it down to 15-19k, and even then they had to change their entire set. We shouldn't need an Fset to tank every OP class.

-Edit-

Also, "make pneuma autocast" LOLOLOLOL WOW Hey guys, instead of forcing them to manually use the skill, let's just make them auto-pneuma. Not to be rude HealHard, but this is the "let's nerf WS" thread, not the "Let's buff thor moar!" thread.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Veralynn

[HealHard]

Voting is down, kinda hard to get a pair of fluffy wings lol. I did 45-49k on my WS, only a few people went out of their way to reduce it down to 15-19k, and even then they had to change their entire set. We shouldn't need an Fset to tank every OP class.

-Edit-

Also, "make pneuma autocast" LOLOLOLOL WOW Hey guys, instead of forcing them to manually use the skill, let's just make them auto-pneuma. Not to be rude HealHard, but this is the "let's nerf WS" thread, not the "Let's buff thor moar!" thread.

We are balancing top tier PVP here, so your remark about fluffy is irrelevant. PVP system is up - go get your sacred if you dont have fluffy. Making 1 extra cloak is not too much at ALL. Since when is changing cloack is "...change their entire set". Moreover, i did not mention Angelring armor here(and it would help againt BoS) and didnt mention elemental resist pots. Also there are stalkers with great redux + there is Poring tower hat. Isn't that enough for you?

If a few people know how to redux then its other's problems who dont know how to do it.

And considering pneuma - i use it manually far more effective then if it was triggered by chance. This is obvious IMO.

P.S. 1. this thread is named "Lets talk about Whitesmiths" not "let's nerf WS"

2. LOLOLOLing makes your post so emotional, meaning you lack statements to oppose to my position.

3. And yea, dont be rude, be constructive and think before posting (thats about autopneuma).

Edited October 13, 2011 by HealHard

[supream]

i dont know where your getting those numbers from cause most people dont do that low. also this is just FURTHER PROVING MY POINT that you guys are just spamming tomahawk. it was never made to be ws main skill. cart term is. if your using that regularly then theres a problem. ANY CLASS that gets bolted or uses verters and buffs that gets dispelled a lot switches to gtb or maya for that matter. of course damage goes down when you get assumpton just dispell it -__-. and the only class that has ranged dispell are snipers and gunslingers and their ranged dispell isnt even that far. cant find the famous quote so ill just restate it

"someone people want changes so their character can beat any class."

Edited October 13, 2011 by supream

[HealHard]

i dont know where your getting those numbers from cause most people dont do that low. also this is just FURTHER PROVING MY POINT that you guys are just spamming tomahawk. it was never made to be ws main skill. cart term is. if your using that regularly then theres a problem. ANY CLASS that gets bolted or uses verters and buffs that gets dispelled a lot switches to gtb or maya for that matter. of course damage goes down when you get assumpton just dispell it -__-. and the only class that has ranged dispell are snipers and gunslingers and their ranged dispell isnt even that far. cant find the famous quote so ill just restate it

"someone people want changes so their character can beat any class."

Considering my damage - i tested it on myself(2 window mode) and the set up was described. You want to tell me that those numbers are fake? then try it out yourself.

About tomahawk - if you have ranged skill why do you want to use melee one as primary? Most of classes use ranged skills and WS does not have any means to shorten the distance to melee fast. But if the foe has pneuma/def aura etc it comes handy.

Considering buffs - WS relies on his buffs alot more then ANY other class. thats the point. And again - dispell is NOT triggered with your Tomawak nor with any other skill that damages you. Its only for continuous melee damaging which WS can not afford - his damage is far too low for that. But even if WS slots VR into his Thor damage is going to be lower anyway (compated to TG or w/e).

And your qoute is funny because i got almost every class with valk weaps so i dont really care about nerfs or buffs. WSes were given decent power to become a true PVP class. But if you find their weaknesses then you will be able to win. IMO players just did not adapt to WS new powers so they think its overpowered. And i already showed you the way to reduce damage to 20(!)k per tomahawk(without full redux even). What do you need more?

[Bishop]

I can pretty much agree with both sides on this suggestion.

Yes Whitesmiths play completely different than they should. Their main damage skill at this moment is throw tommahawk, which is indeed wrong. However Cart termination requires a HUGE amount of buffs and still doesn't do decent damage compared to other skills (like throw tomma) and nowhere near the damage output of other classes. And no recasting these buffs is not simply pushing a few buttons and done. Before you rebuffed completely and converted your weapon again you're dispelled again.

The way I see it :

1 Remove the ability to cast pneuma. Add autocast endure. This so WS can no longer be immune to range hits but can move more freely.

2 Let trow tommahawk damage stay the same or nerf it slightly.

3 Buff CT damage big time. So this becomes their main skill again and makes WS less deadly on range (not completely useless but less deadly and no longer immune to ranged) and very dangerous in melee range. CT at this moment is just not worth all it's requirements.

Other than that Whitesmiths have way more disadvantages and weaknesses compared to other classes so any nerfs/changes aside from these would be too much in my opinion.

[HealHard]

I can pretty much agree with both sides on this suggestion.

Yes Whitesmiths play completely different than they should. Their main damage skill at this moment is throw tommahawk, which is indeed wrong. However Cart termination requires a HUGE amount of buffs and still doesn't do decent damage compared to other skills (like throw tomma) and nowhere near the damage output of other classes. And no recasting these buffs is not simply pushing a few buttons and done. Before you rebuffed completely and converted your weapon again you're dispelled again.

The way I see it :

1 Remove the ability to cast pneuma. Add autocast endure. This so WS can no longer be immune to range hits but can move more freely.

2 Let trow tommahawk damage stay the same or nerf it slightly.

3 Buff CT damage big time. So this becomes their main skill again and makes WS less deadly on range (not completely useless but less deadly and no longer immune to ranged) and very dangerous in melee range. CT at this moment is just not worth all it's requirements.

Other than that Whitesmiths have way more disadvantages and weaknesses compared to other classes so any nerfs/changes aside from these would be too much in my opinion.

100% agree to that.

[Xtopher]

I think you should rework your build Eugene. Also, my buffs on my LK take a good 1/2 - 2/3 or my SP. Does that mean spiral should require 1 sp to spam? No.. Absolutely not. And tomahawk is MUCH more powerful than spiral. Tomahawk can be used in hand with thanatos, can be buffed with provoke/ gospel's double attack and has a much bigger range than spiral.

I get hit with 45,000 tomahawks on friggs/usakoring and on both skolls/immunes.

I think we all are agreeing that tomahawk shouldn't be the whitesmiths #1 skill.

I also think that most of us believe pnuema is unnecessary and Endure seems to be a fair enough skill.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Xtopher

[.Kyuubi.]

"someone people want changes so their character can beat any class."

dude i was facerolling people even before the oriental black swords where released. So this is DEFINITELY not the case here.

I can pretty much agree with both sides on this suggestion.

Yes Whitesmiths play completely different than they should. Their main damage skill at this moment is throw tommahawk, which is indeed wrong. However Cart termination requires a HUGE amount of buffs and still doesn't do decent damage compared to other skills (like throw tomma) and nowhere near the damage output of other classes. And no recasting these buffs is not simply pushing a few buttons and done. Before you rebuffed completely and converted your weapon again you're dispelled again.

The way I see it :

1 Remove the ability to cast pneuma. Add autocast endure. This so WS can no longer be immune to range hits but can move more freely.

2 Let trow tommahawk damage stay the same or nerf it slightly.

3 Buff CT damage big time. So this becomes their main skill again and makes WS less deadly on range (not completely useless but less deadly and no longer immune to ranged) and very dangerous in melee range. CT at this moment is just not worth all it's requirements.

Other than that Whitesmiths have way more disadvantages and weaknesses compared to other classes so any nerfs/changes aside from these would be too much in my opinion.

i agree with bishop

People think that whitesmiths do a horrid amount of damage but have u ever thought of the gear u where wearing when he fucked you up? i honestly do no more than 25k damage on someone who has mediocre redux on (i.e just wearing sacreds) is this REALLY anymore damage that a knight or champ can do with their ranged damage? no it isnt.

I think you should rework your build Eugene. Also, my buffs on my LK take a good 1/2 - 2/3 or my SP. Does that mean spiral should require 1 sp to spam? No.. Absolutely not. And tomahawk is MUCH more powerful than spiral. Tomahawk can be used in hand with thanatos, can be buffed with provoke/ gospel's double attack and has a much bigger range than spiral.

I get hit with 45,000 tomahawks on friggs/usakoring and on both skolls/immunes.

I think we all are agreeing that tomahawk shouldn't be the whitesmiths #1 skill.

I also think that most of us believe pnuema is unnecessary and Endure seems to be a fair enough skill.

Ok so far we've agreed to exchange pneuma for Endure, seems fair to me (ill actually be using the class unlike most of you) so why dont CT and tomohawk just swap damage variables?(i mean switch what ever damage both skills are doing at the moment i understand that finding the percentages for doing this isnt gonig to be easy or anything but its just a suggestion).

and yeah chris u also have a fuck ton of hp on your knight too so why should LK have some of the highest hp in the game AND be extremely tanky?

Edited October 13, 2011 by .Kyuubi.

[Xtopher]

dude i was facerolling people even before the oriental black swords where released. So this is DEFINITELY not the case here.

i agree with bishop

People think that whitesmiths do a horrid amount of damage but have u ever thought of the gear u where wearing when he fucked you up? i honestly do no more than 25k damage on someone who has mediocre redux on (i.e just wearing sacreds) is this REALLY anymore damage that a knight or champ can do with their ranged damage? no it isnt.

Not all of us are graced with the ability to spam our skills with sacreds on. A champ/LK/Clown would easily get stone cursed which slows your damage output and makes you super vulnerable to fire verters. There have to be counterbalances. You can spam damage equal or more to a LK/Champ at a faster rate, from further away, with less SP usage, and without kiels. That's not balanced.

And as for my knight's HP. That's LK's purpose. They're meant to be tanky offensive characters. It's why we have skills like provoke/parry in our skill tree. Tomahawk and pnuema are not in your skill tree. Smiths are long range nukers at the moment which is kinda ASSBACKWARDS from what they are meant to be (SUPER short range DPS/ party support with repairs, buffs, and carrying capacity).

I'm all for buffing classes to make the more usable in pvp. I'm not an advocate of changing a class's role entirely.

I'd be more OK with cart terms hitting me for 45k because it has it's disadvantage of super close range. If it was possible to switch to two's damages I wouldn't mind it as much... However, they've been trying to buff CT for years and it's still mediocre.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Xtopher

[.Kyuubi.]

Not all of us are graced with the ability to spam our skills with sacreds on. A champ/LK/Clown would easily get stone cursed which slows your damage output and makes you super vulnerable to fire verters. There have to be counterbalances. You can spam damage equal or more to a LK/Champ at a faster rate, from further away, with less SP usage, and without kiels. That's not balanced.

And as for my knight's HP. That's LK's purpose. They're meant to be tanky offensive characters. It's why we have skills like provoke/parry in our skill tree. Tomahawk and pnuema are not in your skill tree. Smiths are long range nukers at the moment which is kinda ASSBACKWARDS from what they are meant to be (SUPER short range DPS/ party support with repairs, buffs, and carrying capacity).

I'm all for buffing classes to make the more usable in pvp. I'm not an advocate of changing a class's role entirely.

I'd be more OK with cart terms hitting me for 45k because it has it's disadvantage of super close range. If it was possible to switch to two's damages I wouldn't mind it as much... However, they've been trying to buff CT for years and it's still mediocre.

and unfortunately thats just what the source code for whitesmiths is, they take damage and dish it out (at close range) in no way shape or form am i saying that the class is not overpowered even if its just a little bit, im fully aware of it. nerf the damage and the class becomes useless buff em and they're more op than ever. so lets reduce the damage done by throw tomohawk and increase CT's damage(OR re work the forsaken master forger cards to increase CT damage by even more)

Edited October 13, 2011 by .Kyuubi.

[supream]

i agree with making ct do more and throw tom do less. since you guys are finally agreeing on getting rid of penuma thats good too.

[Kittie]

I can pretty much agree with both sides on this suggestion.

Yes Whitesmiths play completely different than they should. Their main damage skill at this moment is throw tommahawk, which is indeed wrong. However Cart termination requires a HUGE amount of buffs and still doesn't do decent damage compared to other skills (like throw tomma) and nowhere near the damage output of other classes. And no recasting these buffs is not simply pushing a few buttons and done. Before you rebuffed completely and converted your weapon again you're dispelled again.

The way I see it :

1 Remove the ability to cast pneuma. Add autocast endure. This so WS can no longer be immune to range hits but can move more freely.

2 Let trow tommahawk damage stay the same or nerf it slightly.

3 Buff CT damage big time. So this becomes their main skill again and makes WS less deadly on range (not completely useless but less deadly and no longer immune to ranged) and very dangerous in melee range. CT at this moment is just not worth all it's requirements.

Other than that Whitesmiths have way more disadvantages and weaknesses compared to other classes so any nerfs/changes aside from these would be too much in my opinion.

+1 to Bishop!

Honestly I don't think the damage of WS are too overpowered right now, I think it's the way the play style changed for them. Tomohawk should not be their main skill, so I agree with decreasing the damage via this skill. WS are not long range attackers.

Buff CT?! Yes please! This is really where they should shine and they should be doing 30-40k with this skill since its avoidable using pushback skills and decrease agility so those tactics can counteract the large damage done by it, rather than the ranged tomahawk damage that is hard to flee from.

As far as pneuma goes? I don't know why they were given this skill in the first place. It makes sense if they didn't have throw tomahawk, but since they do, that's really the solution they use against ranged opponents, instead of Pneuma'ing the way to use CT up close.

Endure would be better since it allows them to get close without being immune to damage. They traditionally are a tank class with high HP and high carrying capacity. So give them endure, don't mess with their HP.

So I think tomohawk damage should really be doing around 20k and CT doing 30-40k since that will really give people more incentive to use CT and not tomohawk.

[hazel]

To minimize the argument, why dont we just stay with our classes' REAL/LEGIT skills? Thats's what oir characters were meant to be.

[Xtopher]

I'm glad everyone's moving toward agreement.

From what I can tell:

Remove pneuma and add endure to thor's hammer.

Reduce tomahawk damage from 2000% to maybe 1100% to 1400%

Increase High Speed Cart Ram damage (This could be done by buffing master forger cards / adding more of a benefit to the thor's hammer).

Thoughts?

[kuoch]

The reduced damage on tomahawk sounds fine, and a boost on termination sounds a good deal. Since tomahawk is being over used, as said. Meh, guess I'll agree on it. But the termination does need a boost, if tomahawk does gets a nerf.

[Fabre Stalker]

-1 Disagree i donated for this weapon id love to not see it go to hell.

[supream]

seems as if all of the legit arguments have been resolved any other any other understandable arguments?

[Kittie]

-1 Disagree i donated for this weapon id love to not see it go to hell.

Explain why you disagree then. I donated for them too, so that's really not a legit argument.

Explain to me why a decrease in attack power of Tomohawk and an increase in attack power of CT would make it "go to hell".

[Xtopher]

-1 Disagree i donated for this weapon id love to not see it go to hell.

LK halbard was nerfed after release.

Clown/Gypsy bow was nerfed after release.

Stalker bow was nerfed after release.

Don't be selfish. This is in the interest of fairness and balance. Not you're petty selfishness. The point of you donating should have been to help the server. Think of whats best for it, not you.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Xtopher