High Wizards In Pvp

[rasko]

I normally don't play caster classes, last time I played FRO I mained a sniper with a sinx and champ alt. Since renewal came I decided to give wizards a try and they're pretty good. Meteor spam in WoE is solid due to decent DPS and hitlock, it also forces people to swap to GTB dropping their usakoring, so it's a support class as well. My issue is that wizards cannot, literally, CAN NOT, do anything to someone with GTB. Setting GTB aside, our only hard hitting spells are AoE, one causes knockback which effectively removes your enemy from casting range (storm gust) and the second (meteor storm) takes a second or two before it even hits, this not only gives people ample time to run circles around your spells but also just doesn't hold up to tomahawk spam/bolt spam on profs/arrow vulcan/bowling bash and a ton of other skills I could list, but you probably know them. So, I came up with a few solutions which may or may not be liked by the community.

A. Stave Crasher has a retarded aftercast, even with 4 kiels it's impossible to truly spam it. To counter GTB lower the aftercast on SC and make it trigger attack effects from cards E.G. Dragoon Warlord, or Divest Armor from Amistr Hat. This would give wizards a way to counter champions, Sinx's etc, while still leaving Snipers and Clowns/Gypsies as powreful counters to the class.

B. To counter the low damage output that wizards face in pvp I would suggest making Turtle General Cards affect spells (even if only a few specific ones) for High Wizards alone. I know a few servers nerfed TG effecting Cart termination and the such so I'm pretty sure it can be done.

C.Reduce GTB to 70-90% chance to nullify spells, take half damage from spells, or something similar that gives great defense against casters without making you invincible.

D.Modify the High Wizard Valkyrie Weapon or create a new one keeping these issues in mind.

That's about all I can think of atm, heading to bed. Let me know any ideas you guys have or what would/wouldn't work.

[Dudu]

Meng, ill do dis fast.

A- No. You DO can spam SC with 3 kiels, you just need good fingers and low ping, no need to reduce the aftercast. No to the "And make it trigger attack effects from cards E.G. Dragoon Warlord, or Divest Armor from Amistr Hat." If you want to divest, just put the cards in your weapon and thats it, cuz basically you just need to take shield and weap, and theres cards for that. Id reccomend you gettin 2x elite weps or 2x wizz highness for that.

B-No. Wizzards dont need ANY matk boost. Imagine if i go 3tg with 300 int, amplify magic, int belts, mind breaker = beast dmg. The only boost that needs it MIGHT be SC dmg.

C-Nice joke HAHAHAHA.

D-No. The Wizz Highness its fine as it is, tho it might, i repeat, MIGHT need a boost for SC thats it.

Dudu. ( A very skilled magic user ).

[Mint]

A) When I played Soul- Linker I had no problem spamming Stave Crasher with ease~

B) Increasing the damage of High-Wizard Spells would make them Overpowered. If, as you said, turtle general was to affect spells then High-Wizards would be able to 1Hit people with storm-gust. The damage now seems fine to me. >.>

C) I think this was suggested before, not sure how that went...

My opinion~

[Seraphine]

I normally don't play caster classes, last time I played FRO I mained a sniper with a sinx and champ alt. Since renewal came I decided to give wizards a try and they're pretty good. Meteor spam in WoE is solid due to decent DPS and hitlock, it also forces people to swap to GTB dropping their usakoring, so it's a support class as well. My issue is that wizards cannot, literally, CAN NOT, do anything to someone with GTB. Setting GTB aside, our only hard hitting spells are AoE, one causes knockback which effectively removes your enemy from casting range (storm gust) and the second (meteor storm) takes a second or two before it even hits, this not only gives people ample time to run circles around your spells but also just doesn't hold up to tomahawk spam/bolt spam on profs/arrow vulcan/bowling bash and a ton of other skills I could list, but you probably know them. So, I came up with a few solutions which may or may not be liked by the community.

A. Stave Crasher has a retarded aftercast, even with 4 kiels it's impossible to truly spam it. To counter GTB lower the aftercast on SC and make it trigger attack effects from cards E.G. Dragoon Warlord, or Divest Armor from Amistr Hat. This would give wizards a way to counter champions, Sinx's etc, while still leaving Snipers and Clowns/Gypsies as powreful counters to the class.

Source edit.

B. To counter the low damage output that wizards face in pvp I would suggest making Turtle General Cards affect spells (even if only a few specific ones) for High Wizards alone. I know a few servers nerfed TG effecting Cart termination and the such so I'm pretty sure it can be done.

Not sure if this could be done and it would probably require some source editing to get it to work.

C.Reduce GTB to 70-90% chance to nullify spells, take half damage from spells, or something similar that gives great defense against casters without making you invincible.

Not sure how that would affect PvP or the class itself so not gonna say anything here.

D.Modify the High Wizard Valkyrie Weapon or create a new one keeping these issues in mind.

Damage for Stave Crasher could be increased a bit on the Wizard Highness

That's about all I can think of atm, heading to bed. Let me know any ideas you guys have or what would/wouldn't work.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Seraphine

[xXxJCxXx]

A. Do you have 195 aspd? Try it with 195 ASPD and see where u go.

B. High Wizard spells are already powerful no need to boost them.

C. This was suggested before and it was rejected i think.

D. Increase maybe the SC Damage but nothing more. There's also a thread for suggesting new effect to existing Valkyrie weapons (Valkyrie Suggestion Thread). u can try to suggest and see where it will take ya.

[Dudu]

i LOVE the way that Seraphine uses "Source editing" as his no.1 excuse. Veracity said that not ALL the things that needs source editing will get rejected, man at least tell him some excuses and then use that source edit thingie. God.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Dudu

[Seraphine]

i LOVE the way that Seraphine uses "Source editing" as his no.1 excuse. Veracity said that not ALL the things that needs source editing will get rejected, man at least tell him some excuses and then use that source edit thingie. God.

Yes that's true but 99% of suggested source edits aren't worth the risk. Changing Stave crasher isn't really necessary since theirs other ways of making High Wizards better(more damage with stave crasher, card effects, etc)

Edited August 30, 2011 by Seraphine

[Dudu]

There you go, a nice excuse then the source thingy, good boiii :33333333333333333333333333333.

[Decode]

A. Stave Crasher has a retarded aftercast, even with 4 kiels it's impossible to truly spam it. To counter GTB lower the aftercast on SC and make it trigger attack effects from cards E.G. Dragoon Warlord, or Divest Armor from Amistr Hat. This would give wizards a way to counter champions, Sinx's etc, while still leaving Snipers and Clowns/Gypsies as powreful counters to the class.

I played prof for quite a while, and I guess it has been told before, you just need 3 kiels 195 aspd and your SC spam is good to go, sometimes I used 2 kiels and it was ok. No need to reduce the aftercast delay. And it doesn't matter if it is Wizard, Prof or Soul Linkers who uses SC you will always get the same aftercast delay with the right stats and cards.

About the cards, I will try to explain it this way. I can't imagine walking around for_fild01 and get hit by mistake by a wizard's SG and get my shield divested, I would kill that wizard right away >.<. If you notice wizards do not have a good fame when they start spamming their AoE skills, you can get the whole field against you, now imagine that you are also divesting their shields and weapons, I would say that you will get the whole server against you and you will see Broadcasts all over the place with the following message: "Another Wizard Divesting in for_fild01 go get him"... Now to be serious it includes source editing and as it has been said before most of them do not stand the risk it could cause to the server.

B. To counter the low damage output that wizards face in pvp I would suggest making Turtle General Cards affect spells (even if only a few specific ones) for High Wizards alone. I know a few servers nerfed TG effecting Cart termination and the such so I'm pretty sure it can be done.

I would like to say that this one doesn't includes source editing if it is done correctly.

We could just add a "section" on the cards effect where it buffs the damage of a certain skill that just applies for Wizards.

Now my opinion. I was going to quote Dudu's answer here but let's make it my way... I consider wizards have quite enough damage if you know how to get the right equips and cards, I don't see the need to buff their already good damage if well played.

C.Reduce GTB to 70-90% chance to nullify spells, take half damage from spells, or something similar that gives great defense against casters without making you invincible.

Has been suggested hundreds of times and always rejected. Simply because most part of the community wants it as it is.

D.Modify the High Wizard Valkyrie Weapon or create a new one keeping these issues in mind.

Well they could use a buff on the SC damage.

Side note: This post is not meant to bash your suggestion or anyone's opinion about this, this is just my point of view with some try of jokes and personality.

[Xtopher]

I suggest trying more rounded builds. A friend of mine, Crim, uses a wizard build in combination with ifrit rings to make a battle wizard very similar to my priests battle build. However, Crim's wizard still has enough int in his build to do damage with his spells. Long story short he forces people to use gtb and then goes asura/melee strip mode. This used in combination with a thanatos card is pretty effective as well, though I understand you can't expect everyone to incorporate a thana into a build.

Diversify your build with vit belts for tanking, int belts for magics and ifrit rings for asura/coma/assumptio. Throw some troll cards (strip/stormgust/dispel/LoD) into an alt stave and a beast melee card set (2tg/civil/goldenring or thana) into your other staff for asuraing.

TLDR: Think outside the box. The class at hand is pretty much nerfed by a single card. You know this going into the class so you must think creatively to win.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Xtopher

[BlackWolf]

Hmm Hard Hard, Well It has decent Ideas and Decent reason to Reject it as well But here are a few Keys

Ms Spam is counter by Converters(any one hear of those yet?)People say HW Is OP as is?? You can simply use those to redux a HW I should know Ive seen it ^_^ Made a 15k MS turn into a harmless 3k per hit, sence the player knew how to work it

My self as a HW I have notice the Stave Problem, I use /bm to spam still hard to spam and the Low ping Idea stated above How low can you go?? My ping normal is 35, in woe depending on how many people log in My ping can go to about 60 or 70 max -_- So is that low Ping??

Stave is Annoying truthfully, To do a decent Stave You can have Many combo's but Mainly people only know of one combo, Deluge then a BoS and Your staff Mainly has 2tg 1 incant and ?? most use Phree/strip card, cause half the time without a Phree card you Miss, Not me though ^_*

I know the GMs created the Pandaring card To help a HW with stave but I tried 4 Pandaring cards all I saw was *Miss* lol It took me 30 times ( we was testing) to hit once, but thats only because My set up for status and for Gear where Mainly for the 2 Aoe skills ( storm gust & Metor) with JT as balance as can be.

Thanatos is the only card not every one is going to Have..

For Pure Dmg for AoE takes 4 card staff ( 4kingrings ect...)

For stave DMG takes 4 Cards staff ( ex = 2tg 1 Incant 1 Phree) therefore lowing your AoE

I like the Idea of a Wep fixture to Help stave out,but I disagree on making a New wep, Hw highness is still a Rare wepon because most people find HW jokes because GTB and bam deads, aside that there is Few who Main HW and most of them are not really willign to sell off their wep

****Idea*****

Sence 4 Pandarings give a total of 40% boost to stave .Add the Stave boost to the current Valk wep.

Don't hate me I love you all ^_* <3

[Dudu]

Well Kanein, with that ping you could even spam with 2 kiels lol. Its perfect for PvP'in. You need faster fingers.

Pandaring Sucks, use TG's instead. 40% Stave Increase is WAAAAAY too OP. But yeah, it does needs a boost.

Like xt0 said, theres tons of ways on making the HW very challengin when fightin against a GTB guy, you guys just need to explore the job a lil bit better. Dont go by the ordinary stuff!

[rasko]

Thanks for the replies guys. Dudu be nice to my seraphine :<

I'd also like to point out I didn't know SC was reduced by aspd so I'll look into it, as for "SG one shotting people" Sinx's one shot people with sonic blow, LK's one shot me with bowling bash, tomahawk throw kills people nearly instantly, professors (lol) don't have to say anything here. My point is for a wizard to get a kill in pvp your enemy needs to be A. afk or B. out of yggs. Whereas with other classes it's who can spam faster. I appreciate the ideas for builds and such, but the fact is high wizards ARE underpowered in pvp and I'm looking for ideas to balance them. So try to keep to the discussion with this in mind.

Edited August 30, 2011 by rasko

[rasko]

Well to be fair about the whole TG thing I said "some" spells, such as bolts or less used skills like fireball/thunderstorm. Obviously TG + Storm Gust would be stupid, jumping into forfild and getting triple/quad kills instantly xD

Edited August 30, 2011 by rasko

[Sorrow]

Magic time! <3

1-Hnnn...of all things...i think Stave Crasher is pretty spammy as is...doesn't really need any reductions on delay, you might be talking about its sprite delay and that's something that cannot be avoided. 2 kiels on aspd 195 is more than enough to spam it like crazy, but i like to compare Stave Crasher with another skill with similar atributes; Throw Stone! They both can be spammed just alike and deal about the same damageand range, the only advantage of Stave is that it doesn't require a catalyst!

2-i'd agree on implementation of weapon cards for wizzards that buff damages of Storm Gust, Lord of Vermillion and Heaven's Drive. Meteor Storm already has a powerful card to help it so that one is fine!

In my opinion, Storm Gust, Heaven's Drive, Lord of Vermillion and Meteor Storm are the heart of the wizzard class.

3-i'd looooooooooooooooove to do that, but most jerks...err...i mean...players think its all fine to keep GTB to its full potency on a freaking high rate server that has 10% mvp card drop and each mvp card is barely 2,50$ per donation, while nerfing the hell out of Deviling just because people would be immune to asura with two on cloak so they go and nerf it to 30% only even if the backlash from deviling is dozens of times more severe than GTB's, how nice huh? As if the game mechanics themselves weren't enough to screw magic users over, the server's customization is also out to help on that. So that ain't happening.

4-Sure. i really know only 3 good wizzards that actually participate on things like PvP and WoE. (Emphasis on 'GOOD')

Bonus: screw stave crasher that thing is useless, if someone GTB and its one on one, just get out, use sinx card and speed potions if you must. You know what the 'most skilled magic users' of the server do when people use GTB on them? They say 'lol' and walk away, so that's precisely what you need to do! Best...strategy...ever!!! :3

[emir]

Oo 1- Actually You can spam SC like you spam FAS. I always see Nine and Edu spam it . Even i tried it before it wasn't so bad srsly. 2-Oo, the dmg is quite fine i guess since my damage is around 15k-23k so it is still alright leh . if it go 40k-50k it would be stupid they are meant to be useless if against gtb user right. so with 15k-23k dmg they can still pwnt :P 3-Oo srsly? 4 - Juan is fine when he using the wep .

[rasko]

GTB could just nullify spell damage by like 99%, that way hitlock/freeze and other spell effects still go off?

@Emir I already tested it and yes stave is pretty spammable, not as spammable as other skills however and also pales in comparison with damage. I've seen tomahawk hit for 14k on myself with a full Fset and Usakoring shield. Stave hits for 2-4k with usakoring on.

Setting Stave crasher aside since it obviously blows. We need something to make wizards worth playing. I mean, you can complain about a class that one shots people but we already pretty much have several =\

[Mint]

GTB could just nullify spell damage by like 99%, that way hitlock/freeze and other spell effects still go off?

@Emir I already tested it and yes stave is pretty spammable, not as spammable as other skills however and also pales in comparison with damage. I've seen tomahawk hit for 14k on myself with a full Fset and Usakoring shield. Stave hits for 2-4k with usakoring on.

Setting Stave crasher aside since it obviously blows. We need something to make wizards worth playing. I mean, you can complain about a class that one shots people but we already pretty much have several =\

Stave Crasher is used by magic classes for when GTB is on. So the fact that it hits 2-4k against a Usakoring doesn't really matter. And no class can "One shot" people if you have the right reducts.

[rasko]

Stave Crasher is used by magic classes for when GTB is on. So the fact that it hits 2-4k against a Usakoring doesn't really matter. And no class can "One shot" people if you have the right reducts.

When you can spam a skill 10 times a second you pretty much kill them instantly. Maybe I just need 4 kiels? I have max ASPD and 3 kiels and still only get 4 casts a second if that. I have epic internet I might add so ping isn't an issue. My point is either SC needs a huge ass buff, or GTB needs a huge ass nerf. Theres no point in weapon swapping because someone swapped to GTB if you won't be able to kill them either way. Let me sum everything up for you: YOU CAN'T KILL PEOPLE WITH A HIGH WIZARD UNLESS THEY ARE AFK OR OUT OF YGGS. Edited August 31, 2011 by rasko

[Bishop]

When you can spam a skill 10 times a second you pretty much kill them instantly. Maybe I just need 4 kiels? I have max ASPD and 3 kiels and still only get 4 casts a second if that. I have epic internet I might add so ping isn't an issue. My point is either SC needs a huge ass buff, or GTB needs a huge ass nerf. Theres no point in weapon swapping because someone swapped to GTB if you won't be able to kill them either way. Let me sum everything up for you: YOU CAN'T KILL PEOPLE WITH A HIGH WIZARD UNLESS THEY ARE AFK OR OUT OF YGGS.

With max aspd and 3 kiels the skill is highly spammable. Also weapon swapping is a very essential part of PvP for many classes. This includes high wizards. I completely disagree that Highwizards cant kill people unless they are afk or out of yggs. If someone doesn't wear GTB you can 1-2 shot them with storm gust or stunlock them with skills that do massive damage, using the right gears that is. Once someone uses gtb your stave crasher can easily reach up to 25k+ and with it's spam rate it has quite some high damage output.

I'd recommend you using 2 wiz highness. Wiz highness on itself already helps a lot with your damage. Card one with 4 kingrings for your normal magic dmg output. Card one with incant, phree and double turtle general for stave crasher. If you can't afford 2 weapons use incant, phreeoni double kingring for an all-around weapon. That + double fbh and int belts can reach your stave crasher to 20k+ easily. Which is some fine damage if you ask me.

[Dudu]

Wow Rasko, if Crim was here you would get you ass bitched right now.

High Wizzards can kill ANY SINGLE CLASS ever made. Even WITH or WITHOUT Gtb. If you do 3k-4k stave crasher with USAKORING on then hmmmmmmm USE BOLTS? What i see is that you probably dont have the right gears to use a wizz and you are just making this suggestion cuz with your actual gears you cant do shit.

The only thing that HW's needs atm its the SC boost, thats it. Profs got the boost, so HW should get them too. And watch out the way you speak about jobs if you cant actually know how to use one son.

Peace.

[rasko]

With max aspd and 3 kiels the skill is highly spammable. Also weapon swapping is a very essential part of PvP for many classes. This includes high wizards. I completely disagree that Highwizards cant kill people unless they are afk or out of yggs. If someone doesn't wear GTB you can 1-2 shot them with storm gust or stunlock them with skills that do massive damage, using the right gears that is. Once someone uses gtb your stave crasher can easily reach up to 25k+ and with it's spam rate it has quite some high damage output.

I'd recommend you using 2 wiz highness. Wiz highness on itself already helps a lot with your damage. Card one with 4 kingrings for your normal magic dmg output. Card one with incant, phree and double turtle general for stave crasher. If you can't afford 2 weapons use incant, phreeoni double kingring for an all-around weapon. That + double fbh and int belts can reach your stave crasher to 20k+ easily. Which is some fine damage if you ask me.

The issue here, is that almost every class can hit 20k spammable damage without weapon swapping and without GTB screwing them over, this thread is about HOW TO BALANCE WIZARDS, not how to make due with an underpowered class. There are guides in the guide section for that, as for SG one shotting people, that's a joke.

Wow Rasko, if Crim was here you would get you ass bitched right now.

High Wizzards can kill ANY SINGLE CLASS ever made. Even WITH or WITHOUT Gtb. If you do 3k-4k stave crasher with USAKORING on then hmmmmmmm USE BOLTS? What i see is that you probably dont have the right gears to use a wizz and you are just making this suggestion cuz with your actual gears you cant do shit.

The only thing that HW's needs atm its the SC boost, thats it. Profs got the boost, so HW should get them too. And watch out the way you speak about jobs if you cant actually know how to use one son.

Peace.

You're bordering on person attacks man, chill out. Bolt spells do crap damage on high wizard, maybe you should try playing the class and testing things out before making bad assumptions? I'll repeat, this thread is about BALANCING A CLASS, not raging because you don't want to get killed by high wizards. Keep it civil.

[Sorrow]

Just give them more HP and +Damage to Storm Gust/Heaven's Drive/Lord of Vermillion plox. :3

Storm Gust one shotting people...that guy was on Strong Shield+Maya and Double Devilings waiting for a JT wasn't it?

[Seraphine]

@Dudu

There's no need to give attitude to a Player or Gm. Please be more respectful when posting your argument.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Seraphine

[Decode]

I could agree with Sorrow, more HP and maybe more damage cards for selective skills. I would add there the boost on SC the same way Prof got it.

I really don't follow you when you say that the only way a wizard can kill is when the player is AFK, Wizards have a lot to do and a lot to give in PvP, you can't expect a 1 hit kill for every class, every class has it down sides and that is what keeps the balance. Like Bishop said switching gear is mandatory for most of the classes if not all of them while PvP'ing. I shall say that it takes time to actually nail a class and get the right tactics and equipment, wizards is not the difference.