Custom Item Suggestion

[HerLove]

This is something that I have had in mind for a long time but was/am skeptical about posting it. Here goes! Forsaken ro has many custom items and many new ones are added periodically.That leads to now where there are so many reduction items added that the core components of the Ragnarok experience have been ruined! My suggestion now here, after talking to many and I do mean many!, of the players is to have all custom items with reduction properties lowered to nothing higher than their iro counter parts with no new custom items with reductions added. They are already custom items with far greater effects than the iro items so how about we keep these effects that they have as the special custom part of them and not add extra reductions that change class balance and the woe experience as well.It is my opinion, anyone else is free to post theirs ( no flaming please ), that all custom items that do have reductions higher than iro items be lowered to that level and anything with lower reductions be left as they are.This will make tanking an entire guild while walking to the emp in woe a lot harder if not impossible without killing off some of your attackers and making woe more competitive in the sense that it wont be how it is now ( tank everything, walk to emp, hit it till it breaks ).That is just how it affects woe.

Many people agree that in woe there is little to no pvp at all coupled with the fact that damage is already lowered in woe, the high amount of reductions that are available, take the fun out of it.As for class balance, reducing the amount of reductions will also help balance pvp so that classes who rely on low input high output skills will have to be on guard more and will not be able to fight for extremely long without having to restock on items.What I mean by this is for example, the clown/gypsy class have abilities that do high damage, the amount of sp consumed to do these skills is not a lot but the damage these skills put out is very high compared to their cost.Now say a clown/gypsy has the current high reductions on, they never will have to worry about using items to sustain their hp while only needing to worry about their sp while other classes who do not have low input high output damage skills have to use their items for both hp and sp.I am not saying clowns/gypsies are the only classes like that but rather I am saying if we lower the ability to reduce ALL damage to a very low amount by all classes then pvp will be more balanced than it is now simply because all classes are not the same and having too much reductions not only changes pvp but also woe and gvg to an extent.Lowering the reductions will force players to come up with more creative means of staying alive, such as using elemental armor cards that will reduce some damage not all there by not making you fully protected to all damage, than just reducing all incoming damage to little or nothing.

I pvp with all classes my self and I know their damage outputs and costs which leads me to believe that there is no need for the added reductions.I welcome all feedback from players on this and hope that this is not one of those suggestions that will go completely over looked.Thank you for taking the time to read I know a lot was said for a simple suggestion.

*edit* just for clarification all I am suggesting is that, Hats have no more than 10% reduction and weapons have no more than 10% reduction.Possible change on skull ring aura to just resist elements.Something along those lines.Basically hats would be like a beret with a slot and stats etc and weaps like a combat knife with slots and such.

Edited January 14, 2011 by HerLove

[nines]

x.x i can't read it, its just a giant block of text ><

Alright somehow managed to read it and Disagree strongly. If reductions where lowered / taken out the server would just be overwhelemd by champions. The only counter would be rays and even then if the champ has a thana or a good build it can kill through rays easy. Reductions are needed since the server has its own balance to it already if we removed the reductions the balance would be thrown off and classes like stalker / clown would be owned by asura instantly.

Some classes can reduct to a point of ridiculousness but I feel this post is also coming off of the gvg event where cole has a ton of reducts on and wont die in gvg. In woe reductions are an absolute need because of how big some guilds are example trans will have 30 people in there room, now since there isn't a huge amount of players on fro we get like one guild with maybe 12 (honestly think thats the biggest size aside from trans atm) who will charge in there maybe kill like 4 - 5 people try to get to emp and just get cluster fucked. If they have reductions maybe they can tank till they run out of yggs but hey thats the only way the emp will get broken. But if they don't have any reductions they will drop in a heartbeat before they can even get one ygg out.

Reductions are what balance the server, some like stalker are over the top once it is just stacked to the point of almost 100% no damage but even stalkers can die with there reductions.

Edited January 14, 2011 by nines

[Xtopher]

I completely understand where you're coming from. I think this would have been much more realistic if it were suggested pre: valk weapons/friggs/skull aura. WoE does lose it's glisten when people can walk right through an army of people attacking them and still hit the emp or recall.

I don't think taking back all the reductions is probable to happen... But I would like to see if its possible to remove the damage reductions in WoE so that we deal normal damage.

I can agree with nerfing overall damage reductions but not completely removing them back to iRO standards.

[Drax]

i aslo agree that its gotten to the point of to many redux, where i can walk from the portal to emp being attacked the whole time by trans and all its members and use maybe 10 or less seeds, obviously dont except everything to totally be lowered either because damage would be WAY to high then but something needs to be fixed.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Drax

[Kayleigh]

x.x i can't read it, its just a giant block of text ><

Alright somehow managed to read it and Disagree strongly. If reductions where lowered / taken out the server would just be overwhelemd by champions. The only counter would be rays and even then if the champ has a thana or a good build it can kill through rays easy. Reductions are needed since the server has its own balance to it already if we removed the reductions the balance would be thrown off and classes like stalker / clown would be owned by asura instantly.

Some classes can reduct to a point of ridiculousness but I feel this post is also coming off of the gvg event where cole has a ton of reducts on and wont die in gvg. In woe reductions are an absolute need because of how big some guilds are example trans will have 30 people in there room, now since there isn't a huge amount of players on fro we get like one guild with maybe 12 (honestly think thats the biggest size aside from trans atm) who will charge in there maybe kill like 4 - 5 people try to get to emp and just get cluster fucked. If they have reductions maybe they can tank till they run out of yggs but hey thats the only way the emp will get broken. But if they don't have any reductions they will drop in a heartbeat before they can even get one ygg out.

Reductions are what balance the server, some like stalker are over the top once it is just stacked to the point of almost 100% no damage but even stalkers can die with there reductions.

The fact is that even a big guild like Trans has a hard time killing a group of 3 people who have devo. Its not supposed to be like that. WoE is supposed to have more big guilds that fight each other in a big battle, seeing as the name is "WAR of emperium". It used to be that way on this server, too. Now what happened. Theres hardly a big guild cause they just cant defend anymore. Thats just my opinion.

[nines]

That and the lack of people. >>.

[HerLove]

x.x i can't read it, its just a giant block of text ><

Alright somehow managed to read it and Disagree strongly. If reductions where lowered / taken out the server would just be overwhelemd by champions. The only counter would be rays and even then if the champ has a thana or a good build it can kill through rays easy. Reductions are needed since the server has its own balance to it already if we removed the reductions the balance would be thrown off and classes like stalker / clown would be owned by asura instantly.

Some classes can reduct to a point of ridiculousness but I feel this post is also coming off of the gvg event where cole has a ton of reducts on and wont die in gvg. In woe reductions are an absolute need because of how big some guilds are example trans will have 30 people in there room, now since there isn't a huge amount of players on fro we get like one guild with maybe 12 (honestly think thats the biggest size aside from trans atm) who will charge in there maybe kill like 4 - 5 people try to get to emp and just get cluster fucked. If they have reductions maybe they can tank till they run out of yggs but hey thats the only way the emp will get broken. But if they don't have any reductions they will drop in a heartbeat before they can even get one ygg out.

Reductions are what balance the server, some like stalker are over the top once it is just stacked to the point of almost 100% no damage but even stalkers can die with there reductions.

First off I think you misunderstood my suggestion but I put more clarification at the bottom.Second, " Some classes can reduct to a point of ridiculousness but I feel this post is also coming off of the gvg event where cole has a ton of reducts on and wont die in gvg" cole himself has agreed to what I am saying. Third and most important, how is it logical to say that reductions are a need because X guild is that big.Using that as an excuse is like saying one team should get the ability to tank many people because they dont have enough people to fend off a huge team.The big team got big how? getting people to join their guild.In all fairness using the size of the other mans gun to justify your end makes no sense here.It should be that you need a big guild to fight a big guild.That is fair.

[Mr. Masochist]

If we removed them all and made then to the equivalent to the iRo items then the defending guilds would keep the emp forever. I agree on removing some of them because the amount of redux one can put on is close to 90-100%. Removing them all isn't necessary though.

[HerLove]

On the woe side it would just make it so that guilds would then have to have a good pvp force to take a castle and not be able to just tank the damage.You cant just say because there are some big guilds we should leave things how they are.Anyone can use the reducts to take a castle so in essence it is making woe one sided as you can see right now due to the fact that not 1 single castle remains defended.

[nines]

If it came down to having to be an all out pvp war like how it is in iro to get to the emperium and break it then it should just in fact be like iro. People will be the defense and the emperium will break in a heart beat.

If its just people trying to kill a whole guild and then having to break an emperium with mass amounts of hp it would take multiple deaths and take forever since people can just @warp back to there flag and pop back up speed pot back and go back to kill you again.

Thats how it is in iro. Kill defense - Emp breaks in like 10 seconds. rinse repeat. Ohhh Im all for it ^^

Anyways back onto topics. The mass damage output of people would just make people ygg like crazy if there were no reducts. Champs would be op snipers would dominate in mass crowds always and no chance to counter. Clowns would get everyone in one spam out basically.

Edited January 14, 2011 by nines

[Phenomenon]

Disagree. I am sorry, but the number of reductions is not what is impeding guilds from defending correctly. I only wear frigg's shield with an usakoring and sacred wings when attacking a castle, and I tank for a good amount of time due to my high HP, rather than my reductions, as I do not wear many. The reductions we currently have been for awhile and saying that no guild can successfully defend because of them is all untrue. Influence defended entire WoEs without the emperium being broken with the same reductions we have now. Reductions help bring balance to one hit pvp situations. Lets see what it would be like with reduced reductions when facing a sonic blowing assassin cross with a soul link (2 hit KO anyone?) or a champion who has an aloevera provoke and 300 str.

Observe an entire WoE and ask yourself. How many of those breaks came due to the abuse of heavily used reductions? Like none? Assassin Cross has low ASPD when wearing pure reductions. Am I not able to kill someone due to reductions? Answer is yes, stalkers. High HP & OP reduction to their weapon, but what about the rest? My clown dies fine to asura strike and other classes because I am forced to wear 3 kiels to spam my skills. I want distinct examples where our shields/headgears have caused someone to be unkillable. The root of most reduction QQing is from the Stalker Soaring Bird.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Phenomenon

[HerLove]

You are saying "no reducts " as if that is what I suggested I merely said to reduce the amount of reductions on them " reduce " so that it would force people to then have to pvp to stop incoming damage to them to get to the emp.

[Miracle]

Well as I see it, WoE can't be applied to real PvP situations. Damage is already reduced by 40% during WoE because of how WoE is scripted. Comparing damage during WoE and damage in the PvP room or else where is impossible. Your damage would differ greatly. Reducing reductions in items because of WoE would be harmful to PvP outside of it.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Miracle

[Cirrus]

What people defending fail to realize is that a guy on reductions would have sacrificed a ton of other stats that make their class what it is. To have 300k HP on a ton of reductions would have cost a lot of STR, if 195 ASPD, a ton of AGI, more than normal DEX. So can this person kill your guild of 30 people? Nope. Although they can be smart, use a lot of different classes and actually coordinate their attacks instead of mass mobbing people, which is all you people do anyway. How do you click a person when your own guild member is blocking him?

So let's say a SinX goes to your castle on full reductions. He won't have the huge damage necessary to bring your 250m Emperium down. He'd be forced to go defensive, means that's just a dagger. Now to keep his reductions up, he's gonna have to be on Usakoring. What do you obviously do? Coma him. Works a lot. He GTBs? Time a good double Asura. Chances are you have a good 10 minutes that your Emp is taking miniscule damage.

No reductions will be lessened or removed if this is the approach taken to the problem. It does not only affect WoE, it affects normal PvP more since the implementation of these new weapons upped the ante for everyone. Or are you suggesting a "Renewal" for fRO. I think if this ever gets approved it would take not just a few months, more to a year or more. Plus we aren't supposed to be iRO, or, what, our rates should just be 1/1/1, levels 99/70, and so on. We adjust to the demands of a high rate, and so far it's good (but only if you're basically well geared, which is a problem for new players but being fixed as the GMs said.)

WoE involves too much people attacking one person for the damage reduction to be taken away, especially for this server.

For the hilarity of it, if indeed you want it down to iRO standards, let's make the Emp have 2.5m HP too, so once these guys do get to Emp (which would be damned hard because they'd die all the time) the Emp would break fast (since there's no defense, no point in prolonging breaking!)

In all seriousness, once they do get to Emp what people do is mob them with everything they have anyway. So they happen to e-call, and you get wiped out. What if you wipe them out first?

Like all of you have said, I agree to not having any more higher reduction gears put in. But these ones are to stay, surely there's more player-oriented solutions to it, can't everyone learn a bit more to play? So a group of 10 wipes out a group of 30, there's something wrong with that under equal terms, but everyone's not equal, are they? Make them equal. Ever since some of the weapons have been fixed I've had no problem strategizing on how to fight full reduction people. People go to the castle my guild is defending during Euro WoE with full reductions, either they tank all the while but on full defensive gear or they die to Coma, they go GTB (well played, forced him to GTB) then do some big damage to overwhelm him. Oh and we don't have 30 people too. It's been defended for more than 10 minutes and that's every guild going against it. There are also ways around that, they could've done it but they didn't.

Some guilds dedicate people for infiltrating & support against big guilds, isn't that the way to do it? Not everyone just on cookie-cut builds going head-to-head against other cookie-cut build people. I'm just saying if there's a will, there's a way. On my personal reduction e-caller build, I have every item I could use even when the biggest guild could defend until 100 defense. I use nothing new. I just use a dedicated build that can do nothing to harm you, but try and survive enough to get my help in. I just got smart. I see some smart people counter this already. Do it then.

[HerLove]

Did you read what drax said though? I am not suggesting this because of woe or any event its because outside of woe reductions still are too much.I wish the people who actually pvp would post their opinions here so we can get better feed back.

[Cirrus]

It's also not too hard to have a variety of classes to exploit weaknesses.

[Phenomenon]

You are saying "no reducts " as if that is what I suggested I merely said to reduce the amount of reductions on them " reduce " so that it would force people to then have to pvp to stop incoming damage to them to get to the emp.

Did you read what drax said though? I am not suggesting this because of woe or any event its because outside of woe reductions still are too much.I wish the people who actually pvp would post their opinions here so we can get better feed back.

:mellow:

I read what Drax said yes, and he does what he says he does with the same reductions we were using in 2009.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Phenomenon

[HerLove]

:mellow:

I read what Drax said yes, and he does what he says he does with the same reductions we were using in 2009.

It is meant for pvp in general not only woe or pvp outside of woe its for everything.

[Phenomenon]

so that it would force people to then have to pvp to stop incoming damage to them to get to the emp.

Also comparing WoE to regular pvp is IMPOSSIBLE because they differ greatly because of how WoE is scripted.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Phenomenon

[nines]

Alright, I pvp more than most people here since your asking for a pvpers opinion ill post mine. And btw I use every class so I can cover the perspective for generally all of them in every type of build.

Snipers - Once the person puts a sgw on the dmg drops by a ton. Reducts are annoying while pvping on this class, but you can strip off from that person and once reducts are gone they drop harder than any other class when stripped.

Champions - Obviously there going to fail vs a guy with reducts, but they have root and most reduct classes have to use melee, and even if they don't melee they have pneuma. And then they can just gang if all else fails. Or try to coma / strip them.

Clowns/Gypsies - Doesn't matter to them they can coma / break stuff / freeze / spam like nuts.

Stalkers - Kind of a down side since they usually are the damage reducers but hey they have strip so no problem for them.

Profs - I have no problem really I just spam so much and use so little sp I can make up for the damage for every one ygg I use to refill my sp they will have used 3 to help there life.

Wizards - Everyone just gtbs them and then drop them hard so why even bother brining them in

Priest - No pvp value to compare on reducts

Assassins - They have a problem....not. Now they have the crit sword and even when I put on reducts it does quite a bit of damage. And this is the class that uses reducts the most for woe etc etc. Also has the highest conventional dps.

Lord Knights - They can carry tons of yggs or seeds and put dmg out for a long time also have vital break and joint break. No real damage done to them.

Paladins - No pvp worth really and even if they do go pvp style for matyr they can just gospel strip off, gospel the persons dmg away, make them super slow, also have shield chain, can reduce damage, and reflect strip.

Ninjas - LOL they bypass everything.

Gunslingers - They die to everything but the damage they put out on reducts sucks just like snipers

White Smith - They suck overall also.

Creators - There damage takes more of a hit than anyone on reduct users but if they break armor or wait to break armor they can win on them.

Taekwon - Sucks. No one uses them and there dps sucks anyways

Star Gladiators - ^^^^^^

I think I just covered every class and the only main problems with reducts is Range users / Alches. Champions can still kill them they just have the be patient. If its a regular pvp like a reduct sniper vs a champion. I'll probably win on my sniper but they have pneuma. Reduct Champion vs Champion. The one with the reduct will loose because there damage will be low, there hp will be low and there aspd will be low unless stats are setup for that but then even there asura speed will be slow cause of the lacking kiel, or then they can be stone cursed.

Have I humored you enough?

~Edit~

Btw Genesis has put in a lot of [ if ] scripts for items like for example. If im wearing frigg shield with usakoring sgw skull ring and dev hat the reducts will be taken from 95% to 80% if also adding combat knife or soaring bird taken to 90%. To make sure theres no 100% reducts and even if there dmg will suck.

Edited January 14, 2011 by nines

[Masahiro]

Did you read what drax said though? I am not suggesting this because of woe or any event its because outside of woe reductions still are too much.I wish the people who actually pvp would post their opinions here so we can get better feed back.

firstly, it wud b insane to multi-quote every1 above

secondly i 100% agree with this post, i pvp FAIRLY often and i barely use any sort of reducts (i dont own Sgws i dont use Devs or fluffys or anything of the sort even if i have them) and i do just fine,

and this transcends ALL my classes from champion with its horrible hp mod to my Lord knight with its supposed "super Tanking ability"

skipping all this over, HerLove has the most valid point on these reductions especially as it applies to Woe regardless of what any of you say?

or shall someone frap a champ or a stalker or sinx basically walking through towards an emp solo and breaking it 5 mins later?

this should NEVER be possible

FOR WOE/ GVG

idc whattt you say, the true essence of Woe is lost the moment someone Solos an entire guild (especially a good quality one)

ever heard of slow and steady wins the race?...well thats what reducts do, they STILL WIN

and for all of you saying well they do low damage and well, they "May" still break the emp..

When on Gods Green Earth has only one character persistently entered an emp room?

why don't you consider the fact that theres at least 10 of these little mini tanks smacking away at an emp that a guild worked so hard to defend from probably since you first entered that castle.

hey if u disagree it WILL be frapsed for evidence and you tell me how its fair

and even if certain people like Cole only use say Sacreds or whatever else, fine thats his noble choice. dont group him with the many others who have every possible possible re-duct a person can have on. (because in Woe i still see cole dies, yeah hes a great breaker but he plays smart)

SMART is NOT wearing 100% defense and just walking through the fire, that's just OP, because you've rendered everyone else helpless to you..

even if you do nothing, your the biggest distraction ever!, if you E-call and bring in your entire guild, you've just created chaos

why don't u try to e-call somewhere safe outside the pre-emp and then rush in with your entire guild like it SHOULD be? hmm no skill to do that?

tough cookies, that's where the skill of a guild comes in, that ability to work together and comradery that makes a guild in the first place.

your guild not good enough to take another's castle? well then go to another castle Or just break your lame guild

the fact that you can't win is no excuse for supporting OP gear and builds, especially as in events like Woe, where damage is reduced but reducts stay the same

Woe is supposed to be a balance between offense and defense

its supposed to be a dynamic equilibrium, basically if your defending, there should be something to at least match it offensively or overcome it slightly, same if your offensive there must be a defense that can overcome it slightly..

full re-ducts is NOT slight..

For PVP

9s was pretty accurate with his listing, but he did not go into any depth

the current Reducts on a sniper, stalker, clown and basically any of these range classes are OP

from stalker, clown to sniper in descending order

stalkers are immortal, they can taunt you, mess with you and still have a decent offensive ability and a general tendency to annoy. combine this with seeds and your Even if you have Fcp. A stalker is just going to flap his gums and flap around you like some vulture until your fcp is gone and then the most awsm skill ever full strip is going to render you useless and he is going to kill you.

in events like LMs this is a surety, only the rich and geared can have some slave fcper (oh which big surprise is on full reducts) and the only reason why he is still alive..btw tell me how THATS fair. can't win lms by your own ability? w/o a slave?

if thats fair then champs should have Gospel slaves or Ws slaves or something..heck IMA do that next Lms, put on a full resist paladin and have my little brother spam f3 for seeds and while i get gospel ill just wear Reducts myself Lol.. have fun.

oh and don't bother ganging me, ill live..i'll just borrow some of Cirrus' gear, since he seems to tank my entire guild so well (props)

(the above is a joke you can't party im LMS, but my point should remain the same)

forgot to mention, i'd probably lose if this was all possible anyways because gospel full asura still won't kill someone on full reducts even double Gospel full asura fyi (speaking from Woe)

should even need to say it, but snipers can go full resist and with their new valk wep auto strip you if you come close

clowns with their full resist +valk wep = just a little while before you die to coma.

lastly, for all of you supporting these multi-stacking demi resists, let it be known half of them are not accessible to the average player, and so they cannot do what you do.You all speak on these forums with too rich a mindset, and your forgetting the average person is still woeing for drops so they can get as geared as you. Doesn't make you any better than them, but for the time being, what you can do with it solo is bypass an entire guild's defense or tank an entire guild in GVG or reduce player's damage from decent numbers ranging from 40k=100k

to 2kand 20k.. why? Lrn2play w/o reducts..thats where true skill comes in.

besides Chris' point was that reducts simply be nurfed not taken away..so even if they were nurfed, you'd all just become draxs walking about with Sgw-like reducts and still doing good (if you were skilled enough)

..ive just provoked u all.. i DARE you to be different.

psht next step is you're all wearing ahura mazdah..

sometimes it feels like it >>

Edited January 14, 2011 by Masahiro

[Veracity]

Before I say much: I'm speaking for myself here and just because I personally may agree with this doesn't mean it will be accepted.

I do agree with some parts of this suggestion. I was actually discussing the issue of reductions last night with some of the staff. Even 90% reductions is far too much in my opinion and I agree that it can ruin PvP (in some instances). While it would be impossible to do something as large as cutting back the redux on all items universally, what we could do is make it so when wearing certain items, the reductions of other items will not stack. Nines mentioned we already have something similar to this implemented so that people can't get to 100%. We can create more checks and balances like this. Those of you who are in favor of changing the reductions should post your suggestions for specific items and/or classes that you find problematic. What would you like the max reductions they can obtain to be? Make specific suggestions based on what I'm saying here.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Veracity

[HerLove]

If thats the case I will talk to people online and come up with a detailed list for you! Will have it done by tonight basically taking all day to find out.

[Veracity]

That sounds great. Having a detailed and specific list will allow better discussion concerning what you would like changed. There's no guarantee it will be accepted though since Wish and Genesis have final say - it will just be a very good starting point for discussion either way. A decision as large as this would have to really rely on the community's input, although a simple "majority" will never decide if a suggestion is accepted or not. When considering suggestions, we do not only look at how many people are for or against something, but the argument each individual makes. (This is not regarding this topic specifically, but all suggestion topics as a whole since some have been confused about this.)

Edited January 14, 2011 by Veracity

[Masahiro]

if anything reducts should not stack

so Sgws should be the best reduct at 10% or whtever

and end of story

others should be different

dev hat should be 5% and 2 slotted maybe (no additional stats or refine rate)

(you can still get frozen if you don't wear MArc or Scarf)

things like this can make the difference people

Edit: oh sorry Veracity didnt see your post, i agree with your post 100% same thoughts

Edited January 14, 2011 by Masahiro