New Lk Spear Suggestion

[Masahiro]

well, if Sniper bows can auto strip and clown bows can auto coma!

thennnn! LK spears should auto dispel

its ONLY FAIR, especially seeing as both those weapons outdamage and outclass the Lk spear

fro community decided against making spiral's damage 150% and removed the auto coma, sure, all good

BUT if the sniper bow continues to auto strip and the clown's tarot continues to auto coma, LKs need an Auto something too

[Groxy Drank]

As for my opinion the Lord Knight Black Halberd has got everything nerfed... and when I say nerfed I mean it.

Got the coma nerfed, and got the 200% damage nerfed as well <-- those were the essence of that weapon.

So I think that to repay what it is worth, something new should be added. Like Masahiro said an Autocast "skill" could be it.

I don't know exactly what skill it should be, dispell seems nice but let's leave it on discussion.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Groxy Drank

[MrsWazabi]

I also like the idea !

I see less LKs only because they just can't do enough dmg and can't survive because of that.

Since Masahiro mains an LK I think he knows how to play that class, so I guess he has the right to make this suggestion.

so +1 from me.

[Xtopher]

I disagree. If you want dispel slot a Valk R or slap on a Drooping valk.

How about boosting other things like giving a better HIT/STR/HP bonus?

[Halion]

YEAH ADD +30 STR TO LK HALB K?

[Masahiro]

lol id love if u added +30 str to the lK halb then it's damage would surpass the 200% spiral thing every1 so jubilently rejected

the movement for 150% was denied, because it became OP at 3k a hit on Sgws and friggs

so what can u do? because 3k a hit is OP

[Kayleigh]

I dont think LKs need an HP boost, seeing as theyre the class with the highest hp ingame, they do survive very well. But they definitely need some advantage like other classes got it, aside from WS of course D:

Spiral should either be increased to 120-150% and/or get some new skill on the valk weap. Maybe something like auto dispell at a very low rate (1-5%?). On the other hand, equipping a valk card gives 10% physical atk too so they would get both in one :(

Anyhow, I agree that LK should be changed into better, it just takes some more suggestions to find out into what exactly.

+1 from me

[Masahiro]

yeh, only thing id say is the auto dispel should be whatever rate the autostrip is on snipers.

[zac]

Point of this post

This whole thing started when the lk weapon was nerfed.

• 200% spiral damage changed to 100%
• Coma Nerfed

There was an original post where people wanted the % to be increased to 150%. Though i disagree with that particular suggestion i do agree with buffing the weapon.

While some may jump on the bandwagon an will be quick to disagree with this lets weigh the options.

As LK stands, yeah like with any class it can kill people who are undergeared, lack yggs, or are just plain noobs. An LK as it stands will catch its (for a lack of better words) ass to kill a champ, clown, sniper, SUPER NOVICE, and YEAH it can tank but no better than any other class thanks to the TAO GUNKA card with its specific card bonuses pertaining to all the classes.

Many people love to argue that how LKs survive LONG and can tank and BLAH BLAH BLAH, wrong, they are no diffrent from any other class. Yes classes have their particular advantages and disadvantages, and some may say spiral and bb if pnuema and spear stab, while that is all well and good, their damage and ability to spam is hindered and will hardly give an equally geared class a beating.

DO NOT COMMENT AND SAY THAT Bowling Bash can be spammed if someone is against a wall becasue that is very untrue. Spam clicking and ygging will save that person and as soon as they veer away fom that wall they are knoced away from it. Besides whos going to let sumone BB them so much that they get pushed against a wall, that is hardly likely to happen.

The spiral damage has been compromised due to the recent changes in the LK weapon, and it will hardly KILL anyone properly geared person, not to mention that move can be countered easily.

So as the LK stands it is no better but in fact worse that msot classes. Dont say they have high hp and blah blah.

The point of this all is to reinforce the view expressed by this topic. So yes, add dispell to the weapon.

WHY NOT :

tg tg tg skel = avg 7000 dmg

valk tg tg tg = avg 6500 dmg (This was thoroughly tested)

WOW big damage diffrence.

So if you see your self to disagree, then consider something else, but do not disagree just to be a jerk. Though i find this a very reasonable suggestion so if you disagree you need to unlock those mental chains of yours. (speaking to the community not the gms.)

LK WEAPON : Needs an edge.

As it is, its dull.

Maybe its best if the REAL LK PLAYERS were to post here and not other people who think they can understand what others are going through without thoroughly playing with LK.

[Groxy Drank]

A friends and I ran a test with LK. (damage way)

Side note the player was not using Frigg's King shield.

An LK damage with halberd on a Gr+tao is 6k - 6.5k with Spiral.

If the player wears SGW's the damage gets reduced from 6.1k to 4.5k with Spiral.

And with Santa poring+SGW the damage get's reduced to 2.2k

What I am trying to say is that the Damage dealt by a Lord Knight is so low if not pitiful if we compare it with other classes like Stalker, Snipers, Profs, I did not wanted to include champ, but my champ's TSS can get higher than that.

So yeah it is not just a +1 for this suggestion, it is a +2 for now.

[Masahiro]

Point of this post

WHY NOT :

tg tg tg skel = avg 7000 dmg

valk tg tg tg = avg 6500 dmg (This was thoroughly tested)

WOW big damage diffrence.

So if you see your self to disagree, then consider something else, but do not disagree just to be a jerk. Though i find this a very reasonable suggestion so if you disagree you need to unlock those mental chains of yours. (speaking to the community not the gms.)

LK WEAPON : Needs an edge.

As it is, its dull. LMFAO

Maybe its best if the REAL LK PLAYERS were to post here and not other people who think they can understand what others are going through without thoroughly playing with LK.

yeah it would be greatly appreciated if people who don't play Lk or have no experience stop with the uninformed commenting.

and as zac said, yes i use valk in my wep currently anyways

those of you always saying well an Lk has to make a sacrifice they can';t have everything bla bla bla, post below what sacrifice your class has had to make

cuz by my count (1) an lk should sacrifice a maya P so he can wear f.soldier so as to never get stone cursed, and put himself at risk of getting ambushed all the time

and (2) Lk should sacrifice Str so he can put into int so his Sp can go up by 50 for every 150 int points

an (3) LK should sacrifice the 2x fbh shoes (and wow this 1s awsm) so that he can get more Sp, by wearing Fbh and antique firelock.

well that last 1 took the cake..when have any of you had to make such a sacrifice?, and even if we did, it'd only have nurfed the lk's already barely reasonably damage even further.

(4) and Lk should sacrifice hp to get more points...

well thats the dumbest thing i ever heard...my Lk has 99 vit..yeah i said it.big secret

if i sacrificed any more vit? well id be fkd by status effects.. so yeah nice sacrifice.. (when have you had to do that)

and fyi for me personally, My Lk is a hybrid build i HAVE sacrificed quite a lot, and still do well..this post is just to highlight an injustice to the Lk wep when compared to the other valk weps.

i have 400 sp and i STILL burn through yggs mad crazy. it took a lot of int to get there, not to mention consumables just to balance the other stats..why? for what purpose?..which class of yours has to do that?

this goes back, and goes out to the supreamus and Jorge suggestions

A friends and I ran a test with LK. (damage way)

Side note the player was not using Frigg's King shield.

An LK damage with halberd on a Gr+tao is 6k - 6.5k with Spiral.

If the player wears SGW's the damage gets reduced from 6.1k to 4.5k with Spiral.

And with Santa poring+SGW the damage get's reduced to 2.2k

What I am trying to say is that the Damage dealt by a Lord Knight is so low if not pitiful if we compare it with other classes like Stalker, Snipers, Profs, I did not wanted to include champ, but my champ's TSS can get higher than that.

So yeah it is not just a +1 for this suggestion, it is a +2 for now.

Loll damn, there you have it..

+2 ftw

Edited January 13, 2011 by Masahiro

[zac]

A friends and I ran a test with LK. (damage way)

Side note the player was not using Frigg's King shield.

An LK damage with halberd on a Gr+tao is 6k - 6.5k with Spiral.

If the player wears SGW's the damage gets reduced from 6.1k to 4.5k with Spiral.

And with Santa poring+SGW the damage get's reduced to 2.2k

What I am trying to say is that the Damage dealt by a Lord Knight is so low if not pitiful if we compare it with other classes like Stalker, Snipers, Profs, I did not wanted to include champ, but my champ's TSS can get higher than that.

So yeah it is not just a +1 for this suggestion, it is a +2 for now.

Thanks for the confirmed FACTS. This just reinforces the view of this post even further that the LK weapon needs adjusting, and i dont want to hear that "IT HAS BEEN" because as we can see at this current state this weapon is weak

113% instead of 100%

dispel cast from mele at 6 - 8 %

This would be appropriate.

WE have tried to live with the current state of the weapon and have tried NUMEROUS options to increase damage, hokage hat/consumables like lunch box + tequila etc, trying different cards, builds. Almost everything has been done to try and work with what has been given to us.

/\ THAT /\ Hasn't helped anything, it all came down to doing pitiful damage, and wasting yggs just to survive.

I would just LOVE to see some hard FACTS opposing this suggestion. Maybe someone should show us some proof that the LK and its weapon is just fine as it is. Good luck with that, not just me but others who have yet to post know everything about lk, so please enlighten us with your views of disapproval.

+3

Edited January 13, 2011 by zac

[Xtopher]

Fact: If you're going to main a specific class you should have more than one of the classes weapon. For example champs can use 5-6 fnux, sinx use god knows how many daggers, snipers/stalkers use more than one bow and clowns use multiple guitars.

If dispel is so important to you then slap a valk r in an alternative weapon. LK's shouldn't be killing buffs while spiraling for maximum damage output. Zac posted some damage outputs with Valk R. in place of a Skel and spiral only did 500 damage less per hit. That's fair. If you want to debuff then use a debuff weapon (which is still doing decent damage) and if you want full damage output then use a 3tg/skel weapon.

A lot of you claim to play LK a lot and want responses from LK players. Well I've played the class. I have the weapon. I think it's fine as it is.

What I really don't understand is why people are so stuck on giving LKs advantages it was never meant to have (more sp and now auto dispell?). I don't understand why people do not want to boost the current strong points such as hp/hit (with more hit you can replace some dex for hp/sp and with more hp you can replace some vit with int). You have to have to some disadvantages. The class is no where near underpowered. I play on a laptop thats falling to pieces with a trackpad and I can still pvp just fine with LK.

The complaints about damage on people with reductions: Well here's some news for you guys: Everyone does low damage on reductions. I know it's mind blowing but try to stay with me here. A champions full asura (Probably the biggest damage dealing skill in the game) can be reduced from millions of damage to less than 40k but do we see the champions crying out for stronger asura damage? No. Why? Because they've found ways around it or have learned to adapt and use other skills. Some champs are even forced into situations where they have to tss with LOD cards in hopes for coma.

Reductions are reductions. If the skill is boosted just because it does 2.2-2.5k per hit (11-12.k total) on reductions then imagine the domino effect behind normal damage 6-7k per hit (30-35k total). I'm sorry but I just don't feel spiral needs to exceed 35-40k total damage per click.

You act as if you can do nothing... like your char is handicapped beyond being able to pvp... I really don't think that is the case... What do you want? Me to FRAPS my LK running around killing people?

Edited January 14, 2011 by Xtopher

[zac]

@Xtopher you have to be a very interesting person to say what you have just said.

First of all, how many spirals can you do in 1 second, vs how many tss/double strafe/other skills you can do in 1 second.

BTW i said dispel from mele, not using spiral. plus DISPEL WONT PROC IF YOU SPIRAL IN ANY CASE.

IF you were to track the amount of damage done per second with spiral vs other classes dominant skills you would see a major difference. Please dont even come with this (11-12 k total) crap, because the speed your are actually doing "12k" is nothing significant.

PLEASE LIST ALL ADVANTAGES LKS HAVE, I would love to know.

You may have an LK and the weapon, BUT THAT HARDLY SAYS ANYTHING.

YES you can run around and "kill ppl" KILL WHO, NOOBS ? yes sure i can too.

Dont take merit in killing lesser geared people who are not even significant when we are speaking in the grand scheme of things. In fact i find it very insulting that you are going to talk about killing people, be real buddy.

Also have you over looked my point ?

The damage difference with valk and no valk is so minimal, its not providing any great advantage having dispell built into the weapon. So why not give the weapon something like that at least, if not a dmg buff.

We are not asking for hax damage, simply something interesting and additional to the LK weapon, this is all part of the balancing process.

The LK weapon needs tweaking still.

AND ABOUT THE REDUCTIONS !!!

Using champ is a bad example BUDDY, why? Because they themselves have their own issues.

EVEN GROXY DRANK had to agree and say that his tss did more damage than the spiral with full reducts.

and when you check the dps, its SIGNIFICANTY higher.

But even on a regular pvp basis, we are not speakign about full reducts, even regular damage is hardly denting anyones hp in time to kill them.

OF COURSE FULL REDUCTS = BAD DAMAGE, we know this but if you would read and try to understand rather than DISAGREE without HARD FACTS you would know that comparable to other classes the dps of lk is bad. NO ONE IS GOING TO ATTACK SUMONE WITH FULL REDUCTS, its was used as a comparison.

Im a sniper and my Focused arrow hits so hard even with full reducts , and then my bow has strip if things get hard . What do lks have: nothing like that, why not give them something..

Xtopher you seem too biased in your opinions, perhaps you are too narrow minded, you should play LK more rather than say silly things: "i kill people" "the damage is fine", any hardcore LK player would know thats false.

Go ahead and FRAPS yoruself killing Nublets, that hardly says anything.

OVER VIEW:

>Reductions kill damage yes we are aware. However the damage done compared to other classes is bad which says something.

>The LKS DPS kinda sucks compared to other classes VS well geared players which is what matters.

>Did i say DPS, yeah DPS...

>LIST OF ADVANTAGES PENDING. Courtesy Xtopher

Xtohper while i have read you post, and thanks for you input, you have yet to provide any sort of information/facts as to what advantages LKs have that other classes DO NOT, as well as, all you have said was "i disagree" "the damage is fine" "i kill people" "why are people trying to give lks advantages when they already have" How about explaining these things ? cause im sure we would all love to hear.

[Phenomenon]

I agree that Lord Knight's need a boost. Not a major one such as an insane auto-cast being added to the Halberd (such as coma again, or much less, dispel). They excel in carrying capacity and HP except that they are limited to close range combat with little to no evasive skills. Being able to get to an enemy or push them off a pesky pneuma is nice, but what about when you want to get away from enemies when needing to change gear/get a needed item from storage? They don't have the luxury of insanely overpowered long range skills (Tarot, FAS, Arrow Vulcan). You have to be close enough to an enemy when casting Spiral Pierce to be in danger of a heavy retaliation. I think a weapon exclusively for coma, with no added stats besides a few slots would be nice and a nice alternative to a full damage weapon and give Lord Knight's something to add to their arsenal of attrition battling. Of course a slight modification to the Halberd wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. Maybe adding an a slight increase to bowling bash or *gasp* increasing the spiral pierce damage to 125% or even 150% again. Look at Lord Knight's please people. If they are so well off why are they rarely used? You should see them fighting Clowns, Snipers, Reduction stalkers. They DO have problems with those classes. It can go either way when facing Assassin Crosses, and have a distinct advantage over Champions, but are still heavily out classed by the most used classes.

[Perishable]

Personally, I think LK is too strong. I myself cannot compete against a good Lord Knight user. The one that can do it all and drain our yggs faster than we drain theirs. Constant spam, causing us to delay and have trouble fighting back. When it comes to dueling an Lk, it's complicated for me. I have to ygg more than clicking on hotkeys to spam a skill on them. If an Lk was to duel me on champ, I pnuema, they magnum break and start spamming again. And when I rsx so I can't get knocked out of pnuema, they spam bowling bash. Asura doesn't always kill. LK have high HP. Only some champions that can speed asura. Like me, but I've duel about 4-5 good and best LK in this server before, and I can't ever beat them even with speed asura. Can't do it on them.They hit you so fast and spam so fast, you gotta ygg and try to counter it more than trying to lay an asura on them. If we do add something new for Lord Knight, please don't do anything like a high % and more spamming.

[Cirrus]

Maybe there's another way to address this issue, aside from OP auto-casts and direct %damage/SP buffs. Has no one considered Spiral Pierce's damage formula?

According to the in-game description, the formula is: [(80% of weapons weight times (100%+level*50%) + (round.down(STR/10^2) + Upgrade Damage) * size modifier (small 125%, medium 100%, large 75%)) * card factors (+20% and such) * element factors ]* 5 hits.

According to the pre-Renewal article on Spiral Pierce on irowiki.org, it's [(weaponweight*0.8*skillmod)+strbonus+weaponupgrades]*damagemodifiers*5 (which is more of the same, just simplified.)

Damage:

• Most ATK is not calculated into Clashing Spiral's damage. Things such as Spear Mastery/Weapon Masteries, Andre cards, or base weapon ATK will not add damage. However, weapon upgrades do (the damage they add is not random, such as on normal melee attacks).
• Racial/elemental/size cards or items that multiply the final damage by a percentage, such as The Sign, will add damage.
• Every 10 STR adds a set amount of damage to Clashing Spiral that can be multiplied by cards, The Sign, or similar items.

Okay, so what are we avoiding, or not likely to happen, or not even happening?

• A direct Spiral Pierce damage buff (%damage)
• A bigger SP boost. (%SP)
• Overpowered auto-casts that have other sources to come from (Coma, Dispell, this thread)

What are our choices in regard to the formula?

• Make the weapon from Level 3 to Level 4. This would add a very small, fixed damage boost. According to the description, it's just an additional 10 damage from Level 3. (Lv3 - +15, Lv4 - +25)
• Give more base STR bonus. If you would look at the STR bonus/damage chart in this page you would see that additional STR will add 10 more damage on top of the previous damage bonus of your STR. Example would be if I had 100 STR, it gives Spiral Pierce an additional 95 damage. But that's on top of every single STR bonus from 10 STR, 20 STR, 30 STR, and so on, for a total of 500 more damage, and don't forget, multiplied by 5 per hit of Spiral Pierce. While this looks good, we should give back what we ask for, and there's a better bonus for it.
• A race/size damage modifier bonus. The current Halberd has +17% damage to Demihumans. We know that it doesn't stack multiplicatively with other Demihuman bonuses, which we get a lot from 2x FBHs already. Maybe changed to size, or race:Non_boss? Not probable, and I'd be against this mostly.

  This is what I was aiming for:

• A weight boost. At the current values, it's at 200 weight. Spiral Pierce calculates in 80% of the weapon's weight in damage. So, if say, we make it 600. That's 3x the current one, which in turn would provide more raw value for the final damage output. What's good about this is you'll be taking away what LKs were given more of in the advent of the Halberd. More weight capacity to carry supplies. 1h Elite LK Spears are at 500 weight. 2h are at 550. They give a lot more of the raw value to the final output than a measly 200 weight. LKs didn't have as much carrying capacity (a lot, but not too much because of multiple spears) when they were massing up 1h Elite Spears. 3 default weapons, you already lost 1500 weight. More if you're a tactical player, lose 500 more per spear you carry. This is good, because the LK Halberd is already a very good weapon (that unfortunately no one knows how to maximize, except a few.) Som has a point, I've seen Aura duel people outlasting every single one of them with 400k HP and a ton of Seeds. If you're gonna give them damage, take away some of their strengths. Make them carry less supplies. Remove the +250 flat SP bonus. You want to get something? Give back something. More damage, make them use their Yggs. Reduce the Yggs they can carry. Now they'll be balanced.

Now it is not up to us to direct what bonuses this Halberd gets. They're the one who can do the testing, and it will be up to them how much it will be increased (not by a lot, mind you, that's why it was lowered to begin with, the initial was too strong.) This Halberd is arguably the most debated weapon, and that comes with some people not maximizing it, some, seeing the finer problems with the weapon in regards to other classes, some, just too impatient to outlast other classes, and so on, so forth, blah blah myriad of reasons. Edited January 14, 2011 by Cirrus

[Masahiro]

Fact: If you're going to main a specific class you should have more than one of the classes weapon. For example champs can use 5-6 fnux, sinx use god knows how many daggers, snipers/stalkers use more than one bow and clowns use multiple guitars.

If dispel is so important to you then slap a valk r in an alternative weapon. LK's shouldn't be killing buffs while spiraling for maximum damage output. Zac posted some damage outputs with Valk R. in place of a Skel and spiral only did 500 damage less per hit. That's fair. If you want to debuff then use a debuff weapon (which is still doing decent damage) and if you want full damage output then use a 3tg/skel weapon.

A lot of you claim to play LK a lot and want responses from LK players. Well I've played the class. I have the weapon. I think it's fine as it is.

What I really don't understand is why people are so stuck on giving LKs advantages it was never meant to have (more sp and now auto dispell?). I don't understand why people do not want to boost the current strong points such as hp/hit (with more hit you can replace some dex for hp/sp and with more hp you can replace some vit with int). You have to have to some disadvantages. The class is no where near underpowered. I play on a laptop thats falling to pieces with a trackpad and I can still pvp just fine with LK.

The complaints about damage on people with reductions. Well here's some news for you guys: Everyone does low damage on reductions. I know it's mind blowing but try to stay with me here. A champions full asura (Probably the biggest damage dealing skill in the game) can be reduced from millions of damage to less than 40k but do we see the champions crying out for stronger asura damage? No. Why? Because they're found ways around it or have learned to adapt and use other skills. Some champs are even forced into situations where they have to tss with LOD cards in hopes for coma.

Reductions are reductions. If the skill is boosted just because it does 2.2-2.5k per hit (11-12.k total) on reductions then imagine the domino effect behind normal damage 6-7k per hit (30-35k total). I'm sorry but I just don't feel spiral needs to exceed 35-40k total damage per click.

You act as if you can do nothing... like your char is handicapped beyond being able to pvp... I really don't think that is the case... What do you want? Me to FRAPS my LK running around killing people?

FIRSTLY, i do use 2 weps, i stated that, and my predominant one is the valk wep

secondly Zac posted that damage rating bearing in mind THAT the valk effect would be that much

THIRDLYY (most importantly) Valk card itself gives 10% more damage, but dispel!! does NOT. so even IF, its not liek the weapon will get ANY stronger for having dispel hence why i suggested it and not something OP like Strip or Coma or MEteor Storm or Acid Demonstration lmfao

aside from all of that, by switching weapons as much you have to re-endow, while sinxs have to do this as well, the level of weapon switching is not the same, most sinxs only have to autoclick and drop someone, if the damage fails they backslide switch weps., re-endow nd come back for a second servering, Lks have to switch in the mix and run through more consumables,

the rate at which a sinx drops someone and the rate at which an LK does is not comparible, a player seeing high damage from an Lk can quickly dispel them if they have a brain while a sinx can sneakily come and Sb you an drop you, or go 1 dagger or 2 daggers or coma, anything

and LK's physical melle attack sucks, so he has to rely on spiral and Bb, people can adapt as such quite easily,

no1 said LKs were crippled or could not pvp, i can, i do and i win

Reducts is another story, that should be nurfed on a WHOLE, but w/e thats another topic

im speaking on behalf of myself and other LKs with these posts, just because I can doesnt mean others can. but more than anything else its frustrating when other OP classes complain that LKs would become unfairly advantageous with these buffs

chris yes you've played LK but not nearly as long as you needed to have

go pvp someone with a good pvp record,..Heck go win one lms with lk and then speak to me, use LK for Woe or GVG, use LK all day and consitantly kill and pvp people

especially if you get ganged.

Xtohper while i have read you post, and thanks for you input, you have yet to provide any sort of information/facts as to what advantages LKs have that other classes DO NOT, as well as, all you have said was "i disagree" "the damage is fine" "i kill people" "why are people trying to give lks advantages when they already have" How about explaining these things ? cause im sure we would all love to hear.

chris do NOT say stunlock, because as i have pointed out a million-times, stun lock's effect isn't anything spectacular as if you could not hit back at all and were just kept at bay..

if it did have such an effect then no1 could ever touch and LK and people realizing this would play LK more with the current set=up

Of course a slight modification to the Halberd wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. Maybe adding an a slight increase to bowling bash or *gasp* increasing the spiral pierce damage to 125% or even 150% again. Look at Lord Knight's please people. If they are so well off why are they rarely used? You should see them fighting Clowns, Snipers, Reduction stalkers. They DO have problems with those classes. It can go either way when facing Assassin Crosses, and have a distinct advantage over Champions, but are still heavily out classed by the most used classes.

God bless you Juan because no-one listens to me with those facts.

people speak as if they know, but they are only observers, and the fact is they are observing Skilled LKs in pvp like Mike and the others

let them try to jump in the shoes of the average LK

the 150% inc in spiral was rejected and up to now with no real basis beside a 1liner, hence my recent string of suggestions asking for transparency in these debates

up to now i see no evidence on how 150% would be overpowered

I personally state again i don't need it, but every Lk under the sun complains about it and ask for it, and no1 speaks up on forums.

Lastly @som i appreciate the comments but you know every class has its Vice, and even from iRo days the nemesis of a champ has always been and will always be an LK

even if spiral pierce was its old self, champs still lost to LKs, for sheer skillset

Thana BB and Throw spears owned champs, simply because of that ability to knock out of pnuema, what you can do som

which i know u don;t is due the OP demi resists and wear puppetring, stone curse them from their high spam rate and just asura kill them then,

you can also WS them and freeze them with Stormy and then asura

you can snap TSS them, which is the REAL and best way to take down an LK, sure they cna charge into you at times, but SNAP prevents that from having any true meaning, if u snap well you make yourself hard to click

Edited January 14, 2011 by Masahiro

[Masahiro]

Okay, so what are we avoiding, or not likely to happen, or not even happening?

[*]A bigger SP boost. (%SP)

[*]Overpowered auto-casts that have other sources to come from (Coma, Dispell, this thread)

What are our choices in regard to the formula?

This is what I was aiming for:

[*]A weight boost. At the current values, it's at 200 weight. Spiral Pierce calculates in 80% of the weapon's weight in damage. So, if say, we make it 600. That's 3x the current one, which in turn would provide more raw value for the final damage output. What's good about this is you'll be taking away what LKs were given more of in the advent of the Halberd. More weight capacity to carry supplies. 1h Elite LK Spears are at 500 weight. 2h are at 550. They give a lot more of the raw value to the final output than a measly 200 weight. LKs didn't have as much carrying capacity (a lot, but not too much because of multiple spears) when they were massing up 1h Elite Spears. 3 default weapons, you already lost 1500 weight. More if you're a tactical player, lose 500 more per spear you carry. This is good, because the LK Halberd is already a very good weapon (that unfortunately no one knows how to maximize, except a few.) Som has a point, I've seen Aura duel people outlasting every single one of them with 400k HP and a ton of Seeds. If you're gonna give them damage, take away some of their strengths. Make them carry less supplies. Remove the +250 flat SP bonus. You want to get something? Give back something. More damage, make them use their Yggs. Reduce the Yggs they can carry. Now they'll be balanced.

Now it is not up to us to direct what bonuses this Halberd gets. They're the one who can do the testing, and it will be up to them how much it will be increased (not by a lot, mind you, that's why it was lowered to begin with, the initial was too strong.) This Halberd is arguably the most debated weapon, and that comes with some people not maximizing it, some, seeing the finer problems with the weapon in regards to other classes, some, just too impatient to outlast other classes, and so on, so forth, blah blah myriad of reasons.

Gen has stated that there would be a +250sp granted by the spear or soemthing so, it hasnt been done yet though he says it has

the spear itself says +100 in the description tho that is heavily inaccurate as well

(1) i have maxed the damage using the spear myself see other threads for those value results

i pvp just fine with LK and kill just fine like Aura

diff being, he uses Seeds and plays strategically 90% of the time, i prefer to kill and move on quicker and tend to go all out more and Seeds to NOT help me spam on LK, it is insanely difficult to spam seeds and the million and 1 skills like i do.

go for the weight i support it, i still have those same 3 e. spears in my invent and 2halberds, i have an array of weapons and i use different tactics ( i even use 2h swords in serious pvp), though this argument is for the base effect of the spear in the first place, even if nothing was changed i'd still do what i do. but what you should consider is the improving weight is going to make spiral hurt more than ever before, you would be safer with a %

"make them use their Yggs. Reduce the Yggs they can carry. Now they'll be balanced" sigh...don';t u already know LKs spam more yggs to use skills than to survive? Ask Aura and supreamus if you don't believe me

final statement EVER:

if you take out the OP reducts that are all around us, then we'll stop complaining about spirals damage

because its not fun when someone is wearing Sgws and Santa poring hats and our damage goes to 2k a hit

even Sgws alone is 4k a hit roughly and thats no picnic

Edited January 14, 2011 by Masahiro

[Cirrus]

Sometimes you have to really check whether stuff are there or not, yes? Take off your FBHs and other SP bonuses, there's a flat SP bonus.

That's why they have to test how much weight they're gonna give. Or you don't think it's possible that they can do this and maintain a good damage? If most of what the GMs have said is that it's not gonna be buffed any further you have to take away something to put in something new.

[Masahiro]

Sometimes you have to really check whether stuff are there or not, yes? Take off your FBHs and other SP bonuses, there's a flat SP bonus.

That's why they have to test how much weight they're gonna give. Or you don't think it's possible that they can do this and maintain a good damage? If most of what the GMs have said is that it's not gonna be buffed any further you have to take away something to put in something new.

i did check this and i mentioned there was in another post

but i think it would be prudent to say that if the boost did not come while fbhs were worn then what would be the point?

it would be like having a gun up on the wall and never being able to use it, just saying you have it

beside my SP is 3.5k with antique firelocks what is 250 more sp doing for me then?

also if switched between the normal elite spear and the black halbered and there is a change of 30+ sp going to halbered

the description itself says +100 sp, so even then there should be a noticable difference.

i was never fighting for the increase in damage i am fine with it currently i just agreed with the other lks who wanted it desperately

what i agree with is the SP boost and this valk idea (only because of the ridiculous nature of Reducts and the fact that the sniper and clown valkyrie weapons have such an effect)

if you want to make it out to a mines bigger than your contest then by all means, im just asking for what fair

Edited January 14, 2011 by Masahiro

[zac]

There are a lot of good points comming out of this thread, even from the "againsts".

I agree with cirrus in that, take something to give something with regards to LK itself and not the weapon. So fair enough take weight from LK to make him have less stuff, if it means the Weapon will get some advantage.

I do not think that damage of the weapon really needs changing, as it is its workable, but the weapon itself lacks, compared to other weapons in a pvp environment.

I hardly think dispell triggered by mele attacks at a lower rate than valk is anything to be considered "insane". Simply because to be honest, if one were to put valk and 3 tgs into his wep, his damage is practically the same as with 3 tgs and 1 sekll. This has been tested. So if giving the weapon a dispell effect at a lower rate than valk to begin with is insane, then you should also argue that using a valk card is insane aswell; BECAUSE THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

IF no is said to dispell at 5% by mele, then fine LKs will just use valk card, get 10% instead of 5%, get 10% physical damage aswell, and their damage is hardly compramised, which is better off no ? which is why dispell was even suggested to begin with simply because it gives no real advantage. But at least its something that the players may appreciate and make GOOD use of.

Som you said they make you use yggs more than they use.. Hmm im not too sure about that one to be honest. Which is why i can agree with cirrus in take make LK have it hard to carry equips/yggs, but along with that an improvement in their ability.

So nothing is wrong with taking to give.

One more thing, about the sp increase, what is 250 more sp without FBH, its kind of insulting dont you think, because that is hardly useful, i would think an sp increase like that would be more useful after 2 fbhs are equipted. This brings me back to an original point that LKs spam more consumables for the sake of spamming their skills.

Just as how you People love to say(especially you XTOPHER) change your gear / weapon , change your style to fight if you damage isnt working for you and so forth, DO NOT complain about lks spam of spiral / any other attack / damage. Because as Masahiro rightfully said, slap on a puppet, do something. YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR GEAR TOO, NOT ONLY LKS.

[supream]

why do lks have to lose anything more? i feel as if we didnt get a good enough compensation for what we already lost.

[Masahiro]

why do lks have to lose anything more? i feel as if we didnt get a good enough compensation for what we already lost.

exactly and why am i becoming such an annoyance by simply trying to fight for a proper balance to the Lk class?

i do NOt see how im being unfair with my suggestions

if any of you would bother to test it out beside just grumbling with a bad mentality, you would see nothing is going to change

heck i can spiral sb sinxs for 19k a hit and they are STILL ygging out of it, and i spam hella fast

this topic suggestion is about the valk effect, but if you said that is OP (which i cannot in my wildest imagination see how it can be, when exactly as Zac said the damage difference is so little and i can use valk anyways, why is it so overpowered? how?)

if you want me to i can get a list of 50 fro players who would testify that even the 200% spiral was not something unmanageable

i wish i could get more people to get on forums, but once again forums are monopolized by such a small amount of players. that is not fair

i personally was fine with lKs and so are others like Mike and Jay and the others, but what you all fail to understand is, while we get by, why should we have to settle with that, when with a bit of speaking up things can change?

and how will this change anything too greatly?, adding more sp adding more weight or adding more damage? and why is it opposed by so many?

what grounds do you have? sitting back on your overpowered characters.

in closing even if spiral pierce's damage was boosted, it shaves off, even when i get spiralled myself for 15k a hit when my shield is gone i still ygg out of it and hit back

sinx's drop me faster anyways

sonic blow and others do damage instantly and have a higher damage output and is spammable enough in one chain to cap anyones life, even paladins unless they hyper spam yggs. why are you not complaining about that? but over something as petty as Lk skills?

geeze i didnt realise lks were so formidable

if your not willing to give Lks a damage boost, and your not willing to give LKs an Sp boost but you've taken so much from them initially while the other valk weapons have remained the same, why are you still fighting giving them something as simple as dispel? what major devastating effect can an auto dispel from melee do that we can't already do anyway?

[jorgesilvera]

Lord Knight have lost the 200% and the coma, also the dream that the Damage od SP will be rised no more than it is from now. It is sad to know that we cann't use the best card on the game with combo with our "OP" skill also that is sad to know that the Staff have moved the Lord Knight to a second plane. Did you guys remember the "Stalker SB" topic? if not they changed something that was also OP and gave them something in exange but what we get from OP coma? 33sp? (don't blame saying turn off FBH blah blah blah) And for SP nothing..

To the topic.

I complety agree on this since we got rejected 150%

So I say .50% lvl 1 Dispell when attacking.

Since we get rejected the 150% (750~ attack by ea hit of SP) you have to pray for this.

But even with this would feel insatisfy u.u

PS: you gay stop contering and countering each others with blames if you wanna begin a war of fact against LK dont Provoke me.

PS2: Also for evite the "Stop blaming each other this topic is closed" think on the guy that realised the suggetion.

Edited January 15, 2011 by jorgesilvera