Changing The Stalker Soaring Bird

[sessions]

I moved this from the new update's thread since it was really more of a suggestion.

I have been borrowing someone's stalker bow for a couple days now and the reductions are a little ridiculous..I used combat knife/usakoring shield/fluffies/santa poring hat and then tried with the bow instead of combat knife, the damage I was taking split in half. This reductions=about 95% based on this. I agree with this being nerfed but the damage I think needs buffed a little. Right now the huge benefits from the bow are the reductions and of course the fact that it is 1 handed. I compared the damage between the elite bow and the donation bow and my Double Strafe damage increased about 1k per hit on someone with a shield while I was using 2x Pourings AND a Kobold Archer Cap. Personally I don't think this damage difference is enough between the elite bow and the donation bow.

So yes the reduction should be nerfed but the damage modifier should be increased some to make it worth it really worth donating for.

I compared the damage of the elite, rental, donation bows once again with Pourings, Kobold, and ghost arrow on ghost armor with F.Shield w/usakoring.

Elite: 8.8-8.9k per hit with DS

Rental 9.1k

Donation: 9.9k

So perhaps add 10-20% more damage with bow type weapons to the donation bow

this would make the DS damage be about 10.8k or 11.8k per hit. I'd personally go for 20% because you have to remember this is pretty much full damage on just a F.Shield with usakoring and Ghostring Armor. In a situation with an elemental arrow vs. Double Tao with no pourings and no kobold the damage would be like this:

Elite: 4.9k

Rental: 5k

Donation: 5.3k

With 10% increase: 5.8k

With 20% increase: 6.3k

Like I said I say remove the reduction but add a 20% bonus to bow type weapons.

[Ethereal]

The topic is really based on opinion, really. Some people would prefer the reductions over the damage boost, and vice-versa.

Although personally, I'm all for the damage boost. Considering that stalkers already have a lot of versatility with the ability to go magic, melee, and range along with the fact that the donation bow is 1-handed, they have good enough reductions already. They have the ability to escape pretty well from dangerous situations as well. So I think that a damage boost would be preferable.

[sessions]

The topic is really based on opinion, really. Some people would prefer the reductions over the damage boost, and vice-versa.

Although personally, I'm all for the damage boost. Considering that stalkers already have a lot of versatility with the ability to go magic, melee, and range along with the fact that the donation bow is 1-handed, they have good enough reductions already. They have the ability to escape pretty well from dangerous situations as well. So I think that a damage boost would be preferable.

Yeah this really could just be everyone's own opinion.

I'm going for the damage boost for two main reasons. One Stalkers are still basically worthless against FCP as far as killing other people goes (well geared people) so this would definitely help in those situations to be able to put a decent dent in their hp. And two stalkers were never really meant to be a "tanking" class, only when Tao was buffed could Stalkers reach such high levels of hp. So I disagree with having a reduction since Stalkers are meant to be an elusive class that avoids damage as much as possible not takes a ton of hits while tanking through it. Which is why they have access to Hide, Chase Walk, and Backslide to make them very difficult to attack consistantly. Stalkers are sposed to run instead of tank and the donation bow really doesn't do too much more damage than the elite and rental bow.

[Xtopher]

Well, I lean more toward the reductions side of things.

With the current set up my damage is enough to kill opponents, I'm definitely not useless vs fcp with certain builds.

I also really feel, as you guys have mentioned, stalkers are meant for their elusiveness and survivability. The thief class branches off into two separate fields: Assassins are meant for high DPS (damage per second) while taking more damage. They excel in quick kills and dangerous poison techniques. Rogues (Stalkers) are meant for survivability and versatility. They are given the ability to copy others class's skills as well as wield multiple types of weapons with multiple builds for different battle situations. So, I feel the reductions fit the class more so than beefing up their damage output.

Another note: This server is VERY damage output oriented. For example the big pvp classes are the classes that can dish out the most damage: Champions, Assassin Cross, Clowns, and occasionally Gunslingers/Professors. I do not think we should attempt class balance by just boosting damage outputs. Paladins are meant to tank, Priests support, and Stalkers are meant to survive. We should focus on the different class' core attributes and roles in the game and build on them from there.

The class is still very kill-able with the current set up and I don't feel a boost in damage is appropriate.

Like the above people have stated this is all opinionated and subject to personal interpretation of the classes.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Xtopher

[Cirrus]

Considering that stalkers already have a lot of versatility with the ability to go magic, melee, and range along with the fact that the donation bow is 1-handed, they have good enough reductions already. They have the ability to escape pretty well from dangerous situations as well. So I think that a damage boost would be preferable.

[supream]

agreed. i played a server were people went gaga over reductions. it ruined it really. it was just people doing noob damage on everyone else. increasing attack instead of increasing reduces would be better.

[Xtopher]

@Supream: We're not talking about the whole server here, just one class. I really just don't agree that stalkers should be a high damage output class. Their advantage is their survivability and versatility, not being able to spit out massive damage. You're insinuating a slippery slope here... the only class in question in terms of reductions to damage here is stalkers.

But, like all other suggestions, this comes down to GM decision. I'll give my opinion, but I don't want to really argue about it... I am a big advocate of focusing on the various classes core proficiencies though... I think it's important to stick and build on what the classes are meant for.

If anyone actually wants to learn how to counter the reductions with different strategies (because it is very possible) then let me know and I can help you test things ingame.... but don't expect pure damage builds to work.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Xtopher

[bankai`]

I prefer for them to have more dmg then defense because they're hard to kill already, see nothing but annoying high reducts stalker running around striping and casting useless spell that do squat. How many stalkers you see own these days I mean dominate seriously boost there atk and lower there defense

Edited August 13, 2010 by bankai`

[Renegade]

I think it's important to stick and build on what the classes are meant for.

Agree 100% with this. That is something I have never liked about high rates. Almost all of them slap on buffed up stats and more damage against demihumans blindly and call it class balance. In the process they destroy the original purpose of each class. The more different things are the better. Most people who complain about this just expect to be able to kill any class easily on their Champion/Assassin Cross/etc. I cannot agree that Stalkers should have a significant damage boost while detracting from their survivability.

[sessions]

Agree 100% with this. That is something I have never liked about high rates. Almost all of them slap on buffed up stats and more damage against demihumans blindly and call it class balance. In the process they destroy the original purpose of each class. The more different things are the better. Most people who complain about this just expect to be able to kill any class easily on their Champion/Assassin Cross/etc. I cannot agree that Stalkers should have a significant damage boost while detracting from their survivability.

I believe that stalkers should have their survivability from being able to avoid being hit in the first place, not because they have massive reductions/massive hp. They already had very good survivability before the new weapon was released so I don't think this would detract from their survivability any, just put it in line with where already was. I'm also suggesting a damage boost for two reasons one because their damage seriously is not good and adding 20% wouldn't give them anywhere near the damage output of a double dagger sinx. The second reason is other than the reduction there isn't anything about the donation bow that really sets it apart from the rental bow, and the elite bow is 2 handed while the donation bow is 1 handed. I think that something would needed to be added to balance out the removal of the reduction.

The reduction really needs to go, yes I realize there are ways around it (coma being the main one) but not every class is capable of forcing them onto GTB rather than their Usakoring Shield. Also other than Tarot Coma most ways to coma a person can take a very long time and how are you going to get enough hits off on a stalker to even cause coma to happen? It really makes no sense that I can go with over 90% reductions and not even have a serious reduction in my damage output. No other class can really do anything with Full Reductions, minus maybe a Full Reductions Tarot Clown/Gypsy, so why should stalker? Really, go see how much damage you do to me when I put on a Santa Poring Hat, Fluffies, an Usakoring F.Shield, and my donation bow. It's a little ridiculous. Even if I don't choose to go with these full reductions I already have 20% reductions at all times, with just a F.Shield w/usakoring on I have 75% already. This would be like me using fluffies/sgw and combat knife at all times, but instead I still have pretty solid damage output. Hell with full reductions I don't even need rays/devs or a ghostring to survive an asura...really that is just silly.

[Xtopher]

There are other ways besides coma. You can always strip or break gear. If the person is using Santa Poring they have a weakness to freeze, unless they use anti freezing cards which will lower their HP, or a scarf which will lower their reductions. There is also stone curse and auto dispel to make them lose their preserved skills rendering them pretty useless.

A frozen enemy can't berry and if they go anti freeze their hp or reductions drop.

A good combo for SinX is a freezing weapon + a coma weapon or a armor/weapon breaker + EDP. Yes, your enemy will take longer to kill, but it is still possible... you just have to think outside of pure damage output. If you really want to go pure damage output you can still use Sonic Blow effectively vs these reductions if you're linked.

A champion can also break gear, freeze, and asura fairly quickly... just ask CoolGirl.

Clowns can force you to gtb then spam AV, or you can suck it up and tank AV and get coma'ed.

Professors can still do good enough dmg if you're not wearing GTB. They can also dispel and strip your shield.

Paladins can wear reflect gear and reflect any damage you do right back at you, regardless of your reductions.

These are just a few very basic examples, can people on this server focus more on strategy other than the "omgz I can't do uber dmg to you therefore you're OP"?

@Damage increase:

I can currently do more damage with bowling bash than LKs. I can do more Martyr damage than Paladins. Stalkers don't need a further damage increase. There's no telling how much damage a proper Asura Stalker would do (haven't tested it yet). I don't know why you think your damage is so horrible...

It's true that the Stalker donation weapon doesn't really follow the elite and rental weapons... But there are other classes that don't either.

[sessions]

There are other ways besides coma. You can always strip or break gear. If the person is using Santa Poring they have a weakness to freeze, unless they use anti freezing cards which will lower their HP, or a scarf which will lower their reductions. There is also stone curse and auto dispel to make them lose their preserved skills rendering them pretty useless.

A frozen enemy can't berry and if they go anti freeze their hp or reductions drop.

A good combo for SinX is a freezing weapon + a coma weapon or a armor/weapon breaker + EDP. Yes, your enemy will take longer to kill, but it is still possible... you just have to think outside of pure damage output. If you really want to go pure damage output you can still use Sonic Blow effectively vs these reductions if you're linked.

A champion can also break gear, freeze, and asura fairly quickly... just ask CoolGirl.

Clowns can force you to gtb then spam AV, or you can suck it up and tank AV and get coma'ed.

Professors can still do good enough dmg if you're not wearing GTB. They can also dispel and strip your shield.

Paladins can wear reflect gear and reflect any damage you do right back at you, regardless of your reductions.

These are just a few very basic examples, can people on this server focus more on strategy other than the "omgz I can't do uber dmg to you therefore you're OP"?

@Damage increase:

I can currently do more damage with bowling bash than LKs. I can do more Martyr damage than Paladins. Stalkers don't need a further damage increase. There's no telling how much damage a proper Asura Stalker would do (haven't tested it yet). I don't know why you think your damage is so horrible...

It's true that the Stalker donation weapon doesn't really follow the elite and rental weapons... But there are other classes that don't either.

Okay... let's see here... Have fun stripping a 300 dex stalker on any class but stalker or clown/gypsy/sniper. WS breaks at a super shitty rate so that is rarely an option. FCP>both of these. A stalker can wear ED/Tao which>Freeze and Stone Curse. OR even ED/RSX if you don't want to get FCP and yes you can still easily tank an asura with this.

Even if clowns force you to GTB their AV STILL SUCKS. You may not have a fluffy so you don't see this but me taking 3k AVs with a GTB on? That's just a little ridiculous.

Profs? GTB>Them everytime. They will never strip a 300 dex stalker's shield and the strip will last all of 1/2 a second. And their damage is awful against these reductions. Also with the donation bow stalkers aren't worthless without their copied skill since they can always use DS.

Paladins can't reflect Double Strafe last time I checked even then Strip+Freeze Arrow>Reflect if you were using sacrifice.

You don't have a fluffy/Sgw Xtopher so your reductions really aren't overpowered. That 10% more makes a giant difference.

I NEVER SAID MY DAMAGE WAS HORRIBLE. It CAN be good in the right situations but it is so easily countered. With FCP you can just go with no ghostring and some reductions and dex stalkers are taken care of, for sacrifice just wear immunes and ghostring and their damage is in fact, horrible. Would 20% really be that much of an increase? NO. Read my first post again and look at the difference there. It would be like maybe 1k more per DS. I'm not even asking for much.

"omgz I can't do uber dmg to you therefore you're OP"?<-- I don't see how asking that people can do more than 2k per hit to me with most skills and like 50k? with asura is me complaining about not being able to do uber damage. I'm argueing against my favorite class and a build I use myself so don't compare me to Assassins/Champs who may be complaining about this. Not that they don't have a legitimate arguement also. Assassins SHOULD be able to do high damage to people, that's their whole job pretty much same with champions. Even at normal 90% full reducts their damage is total shit, but at least other people on these huge reductions can't really fight back. With stalker on these reductions I take half as much as with a combat knife AND I can still double strafe, BB, and sacrifice you if I please. You also completely ignored the fact that the donation bow would need some increase if the reduction were removed.

Also the donation bow is exactly like the elite/rental bows..have you looked at their stats?

Elite: +15 dex, +15 agi, 15% more on demihumans, 10% more hp. 2 handed

Rental: +20 dex, +20 agi, 20% more on demihumans 10% more hp. 1 handed.

Donation: +30 dex, +30 agi, 30% more on demihumans 20% more hp, 20% reduction. 1 handed. <-other than the reduction the stats of the donation bow are EXACTLY 2x the elite bow.

o and you can't asura on a bow and ifrits take ten years to asura so an asura build would probably not work well..

Also the only reason your damage is probably more than LKs and Pally's is because you have access to the Kobold Hat.

And once again I repeat Stalker's are meant to AVOID being hit. Not sit there and tank everything.

Edited August 13, 2010 by sessions

[Renegade]

It is one thing to express your opinion but to call what someone else thinks 'dumb' or 'stupid' is disrespectful and will not be tolerated. Take it down a notch guys. This is a verbal warning.

[Xtopher]

Ok Sessions, It's kind of clear we're at very opposing sides of this. I'll try to reach a compromise given what we've stated.

You're right about a few things:

1. You can't Asura with bow. (I don't know what I was thinking... It's been a while since I've used this build lol)

2. I don't have fluffy/SGW. (I trust your opinion here because I know you're good with Stalkers and know how to use your equipment properly)

But I think there are some misunderstandings:

1. I wasn't directing the "omgz I can't do uber dmg to you therefore you're OP" at you, sorry if you took it that way. I've ran into multiple people who realize they can't just go full dmg and begin to rage and call me OP. This is really frustrating because I honestly do not feel the equips that my stalker has makes it OP, maybe with fluffy/SGW... but not with what I currently have.

2. Double Strafe isn't reflect-able from a paladin, but I don't feel that DS is going to be dropping any Paladins. The main stalker damage builds that I see are Bowling Bash, Martyr's Reckoning, and various matk based builds (all of which are reflect-able).

3. True, you have never said the damage is horrible, but I can still do more damage with a copied skill than the original classes at this point. It doesn't really matter what hat I'm using, if they boost dmg from the bow more then the hat will increase the damage even further which I don't think is fair to the classes who actually have the skill. 20% more wouldn't help DS much, you're right, but it will boost other skills that have a higher damage output by a lot (Martyr/Bowling). If I already average 20k Bowlings on people and you boost this damage 20% thats a 4k increase... which is a little much. If my average Martyr is 75k (which is very easy to do) boosting it 20% puts it at 90k. Now if we look at my maximums: 90k BB x1.2 = 108k, and my max Martyr 545k x1.2 = 654k. Now, these are very specific circumstances, but still something to take into consideration. (None of these damage calculations included a Paladin buff)

4. The donation bow does have some similarities to the elite and rental, but it is still very different because of the ability to 1 hand it and the reductions.

Ok, here is where I try to compromise:

1. I will take your word for it that the fluffys and SGW make the reductions too high. I trust that you've tested this. Now, you say my current set up isn't really OP... so how about we drop the reductions on the Donation bow to 10%? This would put you where I am now, right? : Not OP. So don't completely remove the reductions, but nerf it still.

2. As I've said above, I'm still against increasing the damage... but in the interest of compromise I can see maybe a 5-10% bow-type weapon damage increase.

I appreciate you're enthusiasm for the class, and I know it's one of your favorites, as well as mine, sorry if you took anything I said as a personal attack.

[sessions]

Ok, here is where I try to compromise:

1. I will take your word for it that the fluffys and SGW make the reductions too high. I trust that you've tested this. Now, you say my current set up isn't really OP... so how about we drop the reductions on the Donation bow to 10%? This would put you where I am now, right? : Not OP. So don't completely remove the reductions, but nerf it still.

2. As I've said above, I'm still against increasing the damage... but in the interest of compromise I can see maybe a 5-10% bow-type weapon damage increase.

I appreciate you're enthusiasm for the class, and I know it's one of your favorites, as well as mine, sorry if you took anything I said as a personal attack.

Yeah I can be...aggressive sometimes about stalker. So sorry about that.

I like the idea of 10% reducts and 10% damage increase especially if the reductions were coded the same way as the 20% to prevent it from being too high (still not entirely sure what they did here but it works) I'd still prefer 20% damage rather than any reductions but like you said if this must be done to compromise then I am fine with it.

[Veracity]

Does anyone else have an opinion on the bow? We would need more feedback from players since I'm sure more than two stalkers use the bow. Changing the effects of donations requires some delicacy and agreement.

[nines]

Well since my other funny as hell post got deleted :( kinda worked to lol ill give some actual input.

Xtopher keeps saying theres other ways to fight other than full damage While that is indeed true the only other strat I can see is coma his ass or freeze get voke and asura.

The reducts are way to much, Idk why theres even a reduct on a bow anyways especially for a class that everyone just bitches about by wanting more items or wanting more hp or blah blah 24/7 anyways so NOW its decided to make it even worse by giving almost 5k to none dmg to a person who can get 570k hp without going vit build <.<.

The class should use more damage but people will just abuse the reduct hp thing for instance in gvg influence when they loose they just have there stalkers backslide everywhere and there was one of them with this bow and it took a good fkin while to kill him even tho he did nothing he just used it for what it is, something to be very very gay with.

Add damage take reducts off. (If reducts stay I say make pouring cards 30% so theres actually and option for them to be killed normally) <.<

[Xtopher]

Influence doesn't use stalkers in WOE as much as other guilds I've seen, but thats a bit offtopic.

I'm fine with what me and Sessions have compromised on. We would both prefer it different ways but it's important to be able to come to agreement with this kind of stuff.

I agree with Veracity, we could use more input from Stalker users. Me and Sessions use them quite a bit, but I know others use them as well... I just don't know how many actually have the bow.

[supream]

i see what you guys are saying by giving them "more survivability", but were is the line? they can spam that stupid stalk skill and run around with a link that dramatically increases walking speed, they got a generous buff from tao, and a one handed bow. Reduces on top of all that dosent seem to be fair. all they have to do is run around for 10 min or so until fcp is gone. there is a clear difference from survivability and unkillable.

[nines]

-Tested every weapon- Decision OP. Nerf and Terf!

Also I said GvG not woe. Don't know where you got woe from.

[Veracity]

I think it would be unlikely that the reductions would be removed all together (since people did donate for that effect in particular). What I would like to know now is how other players feel about instead making the weapon 10% reduction to demi human and 10% increase in damage. You can also suggest whatever percentage you feel is more acceptable and why.

[Xtopher]

@Supream: Reducing the reduction to 10% would put even the best reduction stalker to the point my stalker is at now, and I'm far from being unkillable.

@Nines:

Sorry, I misread about woe/gvg.

I'm sorry but I can't just accept that you've tested every weapon and find it OP. It's all opinionated and the only opinions that matter are the GMs. We can try to sway these opinions or provide input, but at the end of the day they make the decisions.

I don't think "-Tested every weapon- Decision OP. Nerf and Terf!" is a good enough response to advocate changing a weapon. Do you have proof? Numbers/Calculations? Screenshots? True PvP experience? (not you just standing there hitting or being hit by your alt account/buddy)

[supream]

well veracity that may be true, but i wasnt expecting the lk weapon not to have coma on it. since we donated, which means we gave money to support the server, we didnt buy anything which dosent stop geni from changing something. some people and i feel like the reduces shouldnt be there since the bow itself is one handed.

[Ethereal]

I'm all for the 10% demi-human reduction and the 10% demi-human bonus. It's definitely a balance between the two and could 'balance' things out for stalkers a bit more.

[Veracity]

well veracity that may be true, but i wasnt expecting the lk weapon not to have coma on it. since we donated, which means we gave money to support the server, we didnt buy anything which dosent stop geni from changing something. some people and i feel like the reduces shouldnt be there since the bow itself is one handed.

While in theory that's true, people still get very upset if donation items are nerfed. Not to mention, it's not exactly courteous to those who do support the server and keep it up so everyone can continue to play here...

About the LK weapon... it is supposed to have coma on it. If it doesn't, that should be fixed. I know some people are opposed to the reductions, but that doesn't necessarily mean we are going to change it. A lot of people are opposed to almost anything that is new or changes game play slightly (look at every other update and how everyone claims it is 'OP' when it's released).

Two people who both main stalkers came to an agreement about 10% reduction and 10% damage increase. I see this as a suitable compromise and I'm pleased they were both mature enough to come to it in the first place. However, more than two people's opinions need to be considered in changing the effects of the weapon... which is why I'm asking the community for their input/feedback about that specific effect.

Also, there is a difference between testing a weapon and using it on your main character. It would be nice to hear more from both sides, especially those who play stalker as their main or who are at least on it quite a bit.