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Off Topic: Just to sum it all up, Champions don't have a major advantage over super novices or biochemists, but neither do they. Stalkers are just bad against champions. (champions have 210k+ HP and a stalker's damage with BB is 17k per BB) In this case, i've never fought against a good prof... It's easy to counter safety wall, just use pneuma over their head and they cant cast safety wall over a 3x3 area. They would also have to wear RSX so they wouldn't be pushed out of the blinding mist + safety wall and they would have only 120k HP. I would say that theres no way a prof could kill a prepared champion, with gtb and pneuma. If the prof used magnetic field, he would have died easily. Snap + Magnum break is just used to push people away from pneuma or to take stalkers out of their cloaking. 1. That's what snap + pneuma and gtb is for, and snap can keep up with with a prof's urgent call 2. Snap + magnum break is useful for pneuma users. 3. Yeah, but catching up with anyone trying to kite you (stalker) if ez pz. 4. Raging palm strike to push him out. Pneuma over his head and spam the asura button. (if you miss asura due to blinding mist, it won't take out zen + fury) 5. It worked out pretty well for me in fild + pvp room 6. better than nothing :th_ok: 1. From experience, SN's, LK's and SinX's die by champion, having high hp doesn't mean they have more survivability. Paladins do have survivability, but are vulnerable to classes that the champs can beat. 2. Don't underestimate tss lol, my champion did an average of 12k per stack. 3. Champs can ruwatch and then snap in + out or snap + magnum break, then kite some more, if that's what you're thinking. 4. It's all about speed asura or being unpredictable. 5. I was also suprised. It's also hard to determine when they use seeds because they removed the yellow indicator when seeds are used. 6. Yeah, most str based classes. 7. It's helped my friend from Japan, which is half way around the world from the server. (and she's better than me) If you think of GvG, SN's and Pallies can't really escape sticky situations, but if you're talking about tanks, then yeah, Super Novices and Pallies are great tanks.

The problem with AoD is that you can get frozen, unlike ship captain hat. (AoD is only ever useful for WS who doesnt even trigger on hit effect such as stone curse). As i said, the common gear of fighting champions are already GR, Tao, x2 Rays, so there is very little gear switching involved when going up against a champion. The glass cannon build still kills some people even with those gears, and the champion has to gear switch into x2 hallows and tanee + fbh. You're too focused on the Gear switching aspect and seem too inexperienced with the gameplay. Not everyone has enough tokens for extra gear, so they have to work with what they have, that just means they have to outsmart those champions. This applies to champions as well, if they don't have stone curse or lex aeterna, they just have to outsmart their opponents by utilizing their skills to their full potential. I was implying that one would only have a limited amount of box of sunlights in an inventory (since their weight is 20) and only brought that up because it was a card combo that had good synergy together. It's a good idea right? Snipers are a good example for this. If a sniper uses ship captain hat against an lk who uses puppetring, is one stone curse going to kill him? Most likely not. Even still, snipers can just use evil druid and full damage against lks. The fight is "brainless" and takes no skill. If a sniper uses ship captain hat (with this suggestion implemented), will the fight be brainless because there's no gear switching? or because the sniper is going full damage? No, if the sniper wants to win, he'll have to skid trap, arrow shower that skid trap under the champ (under the pneuma), and use Fas or DS. This is especially harder if the champ doesn't wear gr, since every time the sniper wants to arrow shower the trap, he'll have to switch arrow properties as well. (immaterial arrows for traps) The entire point of this suggestion was that Champs do not need crutches such as lex aeterna or stone curse, they are good enough themselves with their skill layout. Some classes are more reliant to gear switching because their skills don't give them survivability, like the sniper and bio. I would say, Champions who use cards such as puppetring, pest, and owl baron are opportunists. They take advantage of situations to 1 shot their opponents, when they could have easily avoided damage. That's hard to believe, since i have personal experience in winning the pvp ladder 6 times in a row with the champion class. I didn't say they +1'd anything, they just simply felt indifferent to the outcome of this suggestion. Sure stone curse and lex help ungeared players out at times, but at the same time, i've seen ungeared champions dominate others in fights by simply outmatching them (Boyog). Champ is one of the classes that you can be ungeared for (fknight set + str gaunts), and still dominate in fights. I've had personal experience with that.

If you don't like "skill" and "thought" being taken off the game, then you should be agreeing to my topic... Don't assume that every champ utilizes every skill for a champ possible, some just mindlessly wait for stone curse or lex to go off, then asura. In my opinion, these cards ruin this class. Sure if box of sunlight lasted more than 30 seconds. Otherwise, maya p takes away f soldier, giving you get a chance to be stoned if you hit them. Those 30 seconds can be stalled by the champion fairly easily. If they were to buff box of sunlight, maya purple would be useless. It doesn't stop them changing gears, but it does avoid them, yes? It's because they have these utility skills that they can be nerfed. Other classes can use puppetring against full damage users, yet puppetring can be countered by an evil druid card. The undead property, if you didn't know already, stops one from being stone cursed, but changing your armor property to undead wouldn't necessarily work against champions because of asura strike. This "full damage" that you have been talking about is the Ship Captain hat, so please refer to that, as it is the only gear that allows someone go to full damage (not speaking about matk). Does this effect gameplay? sure it does, if you rely on those cards. Do champions need switching options? No. It's easier to just snap away or place pneuma on yourself (unless if you're thinking of using the stone curse to one shot). Does this change how other's fight against champions? Of course it does, at least it lets others have a chance to kill champions from their made mistakes. I've only seen 3 champions who commented on this forums topic, 2 saying that it wouldn't affect them at all.

Yeah i agree, champs don't specifically need the items to kill someone, but those items allow someone else to be punished for not being geared enough. Again, to be fair, what class punishes the champion class for going full damage? Probably another champion. 1. The bolts definitely deals more damage than mamo, i won't disagree with you with your statement, but the success of this class depends on what its fighting. Since this thread is about champions, doing mamo to a champ is a bit useless, since the champ will be using yggs for spamming asura, hp will be no issue from constant 30k damage. 2. Again, won't disagree, but when they fight a champ, its basically the same as fighting a bio, damage wouldn't matter as long as the champion is spamming asura, or kiting the sn by snap + tss. (Thanks to rayray's build, most don't even wear gr vs champs) 4. Most notable stalkers are very patient and wait for them to for them to chase after them because the purpose for a stalker is to survive, not walk up to tank some damage. Again, getting back onto topic, if a stalker would bb a champion under pneuma, that would be suicide, intentionally or not. Btw, i was just quoting "master race" from ThePerfectHit and Roi. 5. This is probably the only class that everyone has difficulty fighting, except for bio, yet all of the damage can still be avoided by a champion by snaps + pneumas. 6. Yeah that's true fundamentally, but if you actually played a prof in game, it wouldn't work out as well. A prof would have to wear rsx, so it wouldn't be pushed out of safety wall and blinding mist, making it's hp ~120k+. If you wear a tao the max hp gets bumped up to a whopping 180k. They too have the skill magic coat so they have more reduct, but other than that, gtb really cripples them. If they were to go up 1v1 against the champion, it would probably have no chance of winning, with gtb and pneuma. The champion class can simply kite all of those classes, and for stalkers, they can snap + magnum break to kill them. According to my in game experience, most classes have a disadvantage over champs. As the above proves, the champion doesn't need crutches such as puppetring card, pest card, or owl baron card. I compared all of them to a champion in order to prove the "master race." If they can counter most classes that have both ranged and melee potential, they do have a major advantage. Of course this all completely depends on gameplay, if a more skilled bio, sn, or pally fights a champ who doesn't fully utilize their skills, they would lose. 1. The champions have, arguably, the best survivability. 2. As you said, they have really high mobility, so catching up to a backsliding sinx and escaping danger would be easy. 3. They can kite most classes with snap, pneuma, tss. 4. If their asura damage is reduced... it wouldn't really matter, it would still be a 2 shot kill to most classes. 5. Most some pinoys who play champ use seeds (i don't know why), so they don't really need to rely on berries. 6. They still carry 280 berries which is similar to how many seeds most classes can carry. 7. It is still possible to play champions properly, with the use of ping reducing programs (if one was addicted to champ). I'll add more if you add more :th_ok: .

No, i was thinking of snipers, sinx, lord knights, and champs, not just champs alone. Of course i wouldn't be thinking about bios, wizards, and profs, since they don't really auto attack unless they're attempting to strip. As you see, champs already counter these classes with their skills alone, that's why i think its unfair. Even if they go full damage, that doesn't necessarily mean that they would have a chance to deal some damage... Yeah it would be more convenient for some players, who trigger these effects, but at least they would have a better chance in 1v1 fights. If you're thinking of party vs party, they still force everyone to wear gr card and they have good synchronization with all magic based classes. This is false, most of my friends who play champ complain, "i don't have enough hotkeys for all of my skills." Their wide variety of skills make the champ class probably the most enjoyable. Btw, champs fighting 1v1 is fun to watch, most people huddle around one just to spectate. It's probably the most exciting 1v1 fights throughout the server, because its entirely dictated by gameplay (unless if someone were to lex or stone curse). Most classes already default an item set just to fight a champ, so no difference in there... As you said, they wear Gr, x2 rays, tao, and try to live it out.

Yeah, I never played these classes extensively, i already know that you have guides on SN and biochem, so thanks for your insight. I just know these disadvantages from these classes from just fighting them in game. Yet, most classes already have disadvantages from fighting champions, and to be honest, out of those 4 classes pointed out, Biochemist is the only one that champions have trouble fighting (from my own experience). Fighting biochemists, in the pvp room, are especially difficult mostly because of the extra seeds they have on their cart (when commands were disabled). I could go into more detail, but it would go off topic some more. If you know what you're doing any class is good, even a sniper who only has ranged skills. Disabling these cards are the only way to do it. If you think of a 1v1 champ duel, the first person to get lex'd or stoned dies. Whether or not this gets passed, Champions will still be champions, people would just have 1 less thing to worry about.

That's obvious, no need to explain that. But you need to agree with me that Tss and Asura make champions very capable of killing most classes, there's no need for a crutch such as lex aeterna or stone curse. 1. You can use RSX card so you don't get your armor broken from acid bomb, or get knocked back by cart revolution I tried a mamo build with Biochemist, using the cursed ring, the average damage that was dealt was 30k.. its not very strong.. I was implying the use of thanatos.. the thanatos card stacked with mamo does hella damage to someone who isn't prepared. 2. Mamo is rarely seen again in game, and the last time i saw a successful hybrid SN in game (last year ago) forced people to wear gtb, due to high damage with bolts, and switched to mamo to deal the finishing blows. Otherwise, they would deal an average of 20-40k damage depending on how highly they invested in str. 3. I now agree that spiral pierce is very powerful, i saw it ingame with my friend, and she said that lk cursed only adds ~300 damage per hit. But still does 30k per spiral pierce average. 4. Stalkers nowadays play very efficiently, they utilize soul link, backslide, and their Stealth skill to its full potential, along with Fas. They are very annoying to fight and takes a long time. Using bowling bash to get infont of someone's face would be more ineffective. 5. I recently fought a battle pally in the Pvp room, and he got a total of 800+ kills, the only way i would die was by getting my armor broken, other than that, the constant damage of shield chain and holy cross wasn't gonna do it. 6. Again, without thanatos, stave crasher would do an average of 35k on gtb users. And you say profs can be immortal yet claim that champs aren't? Most classes have an average of 200k HP, it's easy to use yggdrasil seeds or berries to survive. The average damage for Tss is 40k-60k and asura is usually 2 shot kill. Champions in comparison have more damage. You state this, but you don't have any examples. Yet, their utility skills do counter someone from going full damage, it's all about gameplay. Disabling Puppetring card, Pest card (same affect as puppetring), and Owl Baron card, won't affect the gameplay at all, they still have to utilize Tss and Asura to kill their opponents and Root, Pneuma, and Snap to stay alive. How would Nerfing a 1 shot kill not be fair? I don't understand your logic. When a champion uses stone curse to stop those who use ship captain hat, the only equip that allows full damage gear-wise (that i can think of), they get punished by getting 1 shot, But which class punishes the Champion for going full damage gear-wise by 1 shotting them? My champion has won the pvp ladder 6 times in a row without the use of these cards. Along the way, people have been caught feeding themselves and got banned, but i remained 1st place throughout those 7 weeks. I remember back when MVPs had 200+ million hp and champs were able to do 10+ mil asura to them with thanatos card. I also didn't know that Tss/Fo was affected by thanatos. I don't understand your reply, but i do understand that you have a problem with limiting gear options. Of course there are some champions that can instakill others without the use of stone curse, lex aeterna, or from buffs (provoke or x2 attack). Do i think that should be nerfed? No, They most likely play a glass cannon build, and they are forced to walk up to people and asura, the delay from snap allows some time for gear swapping. There's another problem with cloaking champions who go for a full asura build. One might have to wear Maya Purple card in order to see them, which removes the forsaken soldier card, allowing those champions to use puppetring card.

What I meant was that TSS and Asura Strike scale very well with Strength... Just to add on.. 1. Creators using bolts as well as acid bomb offers variety to biochemists, just incase someone were to pneuma, or gtb... And it looks like a champ can do both.. I might as well add the use of skolls.. 2. Super Novices have to split their stats up between Strength or Intelligence, or might just have to force on a gtb in order to do some damage with mammo. It's still mediocre damage compared to 100% matk SN. 3. Lord Knights do have a ranged attack (spiral pierce), but its not as powerful as bowling bash, it's just constant damage that makes fights more colorful. In addition, they need both cursed and blessed ring to inflict damage.. 4. I haven't seen many Stalkers using bowling bash with double strafe.. maybe because it hasn't been successful.. I don't know. Stalkers have very low hp so they wouldn't even try bowling bash against other classes. 5. Paladins are just scary. But one thing that i noticed was that, they're forced to break your armor to inflict more damage with martyr's or shield chain. 6. Professors do have stave.. but that's just used as a filler, because they have nothing else better to do (might as well die trying). Out of all these examples, Creators and Pallies are the only ones, in my opinion, that are worth investing in. But you said those are just classes that have multiple ways of fighting, they didn't have to be successful, i give props to you though. I also have no problem about gear swapping, anyways, a good champion doesn't even need Lex or Stone Curse, a good champion merely outplays his opponent. (Champs have to switch gears anyways in order to survive x2 OL's anyways whether or not stone curse or lex is applied.) No way to counter it? Champs have skills such as pneuma, root, and snap, and gear swapping into gtb in order to stay alive. Champions are the only class that can utilize these cards in order to 1 shot their opponents (other than profs), and other classes don't benefit from them this much, except bio and pally. Btw thanatos card was nerfed for champions in order to get rid of their one shot potential with asura. This is going too far as to nerfing other classes buffing others. What i see today is champs, solely, one shotting others, without the help of other classes and their buffs.

It was just an example to that i agreed that everything has its counters.

I agree that everything has its counters, for example Super Novices with Priest Capes can be countered by a simple GTB card. However, everyone, including myself, wants to see this disabled. I just want to point out that if this change was implemented, it would not affect the gameplay for champions, just as Roi and ThePerfectHit claim, Champion will still be the master class whether this gets passed or not. They have both ranged and melee potential, unlike the other classes, who solely depend on either magic, ranged, or melee, so in a way, they're already better than other classes. And you're saying that, if we took away stone curse and lex aeterna, we would be nerfing that class? I don't agree. Those skills aren't even theirs to begin with. If you've ever played champion, you can realize that they don't even need them.

As I previously stated, "This has not been a problem before since there is an informal rule that champs shouldn't use these cards, which has been enforced by most pros," though i do not have any proof for this, many people would vouch for me. I know that ship cap't hat works for every class, but the sniper class gets the most use out of it, i just wanted to let everyone relate to it. Why would the ship captain hat get disabled for sniper? Did you know that Champions have pneuma and that other classes can use puppetrings? I was just looking for the best personal interest for everyone who is disgusted for champs that do this. This nerf won't even affect gameplay, as an ex-champ player, using these cards guaranteed a quick and easy kill. yeah, at least stone curse has a counter :th_ok:

Stone curse has more than one use other than an instakill for champs, professors use to to increase damage for their firebolts, other classes use it to punish snipers for using ship captain hat, so it is a very useful skill and that it shouldn't lead to "banning" it for other classes. You just implied that i wanted it banned from champ use. The seeker card enables the use of stone curse and it is slotted to the shield. I think this would be a good trade, if champs want to stone curse, leading to that 1 shot asura kill, because it gives a risk and return. From my experience as a champ, those classes can be beaten in a 1v1 duel :th_e4: But other than that, i completely agree classes should be able to counter others, which is why i think this change should be implemented... And the only class, in my opinion, that can counter a champion is another champion. Yeah, at least those champions need assistance from other classes.

Well since i have a fsold for myself, i usually come prepared after the 1st death to stone curse, but i do encounter lex aeterna when im in 1v1 asura duels or vs a lord knight. I just think that champions already have all the skills necessary to be the best class, yet they get the most use out of these cards.

+1, these super novices are very hard to kill, and their spam forces you to wear gtb

I believe that the existence of an instant death is over powered and should not be in any game, Stone Curse and Lex Aeterna allows most champs to 1 shot any player without a fighting chance. This has not been a problem before since there is an informal rule that champs shouldn't use these cards, which has been enforced by most pros. This change won't affect any game play, just removes the reliance for these cards. I just think that these cards, stacked with Root, Pneuma, and Snap, just make the champion class not only invincible, but also the ultimate killer.