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速い 

Proposed Change: Guardian Rings

Balance  

21 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think the state of pvp currently (inc. events) is balanced?

    • Yes
      3
    • No
      16
    • Not sure, I don't participate enough.
      2


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Guardian Rings

[Gunslinger of The Guardian]
Vit +35, Dex +20, Max HP +30% (20%), Max SP +10%, Walking speed +15%, Reduce Vit def by 10%,
Increase damage of Tracking by 135% (170%), Increase Casting Time by 17%,
Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5%

[High Wizard of The Guardian]
Int +20, Vit +20, Max HP +30% (10%), Max SP +25%, Matk +20%, Walking speed +15%
Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5%, Reduce Vit def by 10%,
Increase damage of Napalm Vulcan by 90% (180%), 1% chance to auto cast Ganbantein when receiving any damage.

[Star Gladiator of The Guardian]
Str +20, Vit +20, Max HP +25%, Max SP +10%, Walking speed +15%, Reduce Vit def by 10%,
Crit +100, Atk +8%, Inflict 15% more damage with Critical Attacks, 2% chance to cast Counter Kick with increased damage of 100% when doing physical damage,
Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5%

[Whitesmith of The Guardian]
Str +20, Int +40, Max HP +10%, MATK +80%, Walking speed +15%
Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5%
Increase damage of Napalm Vulcan by 90% (180%)

[Clown of The Guardian]
Dex +25, Agi +15, Max HP +15%, Atk +15%, Walking speed +15%
Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5%
5% chance to cast lvl 5 Musical Strike on enemy target when being hit
Increase Musical Strike damage by 220-240% (300%)

[Gypsy of The Guardian]
Dex +25, Agi +15, Max HP +15%, Atk +15%, Walking speed +15%
Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5%
5% chance to cast level 5 Throw Arrow on enemy target when being hit
Increase Throw Arrow damage by 220-240% (300%)

Cursed Rings

[Taekwon of Damned]
Str +35, Agi +35, Max HP +15%, Max SP +25%, Atk +7%, Hit +100, Walking speed +15%
Reduce Vit def by 10%, Increase damage of Tornado Kick by
200% (350%),
Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5%

[Creator of Damned]
Int +20, Vit +20, Max HP +10%, Max SP +10%, Atk +20%, Walking speed +15%, Reduce Vit def by 10%, Increase damage of Mammonite by 175% (350%)
Reduce damage taken from Demihumans by 5%

Valkyrie Weapons

[Star Gladiator's Sorrowbringer]

Str +20, Agi +12, Atk +5%, Max HP +45%
Increase damage to demihuman by 7%
Increase damage to medium sized monsters by 2%
Allows Level 10 Enlarge Weight Limit Weapon

 

EXTRA:

• ADD A HARD DELAY OF 0.5s ON TAROT USAGE

MODIFY KIHOP (TK_POWER)

Quote

ATK_ADDRATE(wd->damage, wd->damage2, 2*skill*i);

  TO  

Quote

ATK_ADDRATE(wd->damage, wd->damage2, 1*skill*i);

It's either this or completely remove Taekwon's/Star Gladiator's weapon. The class itself for the longest time does way too much damage in events such as WoE, having the ability to drop classes with ease with hatred on them is incredibly unhealthy. This change will essentially half the amount of damage Taekwon/Star Gladiator gains from kihop which is where most of its damage stems from.

 

All in all I think these changes will bring about a healthy change to the current state of pvp. This obviously isn't the end all be all for these changes and there are other classes that need to be addressed but currently as it is, these classes pose the biggest problem.

Edited by 速い 
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I agree, you can say that there are counters for all of these classes but when were talking group PvP and events its not really an option to switch for some of these classes because it just gets you killed. No class should have the power to do so much damage to force you to switch gears but you can't even switch because you'll die if you do, so you just stay there tanking the absurd amount of damage. He gave the original effect and suggested the new ones, I'm sure it doesn't have to be on point as the GM's can test variables, and even gave a different damage formula to reduce TK / SG damage, which is undoubtedly the strongest classes in WoE right now which is our most active event. ( I play SG and agree with this change so it really goes to show if the GM's are being reasonable here ) PvP is in a really unhealthy state right now, and I can say for many of my friends and people that play, people play for the PvP on the server. Like he said, these classes pose the biggest problem and should be changed in some way... it's just common sense at this point and it doesn't take any pvper or genius to understand that some of these classes just are not fair and healthy.

GMs need to look at classes like SG / TK, and stop saying that SG can be countered easily. SG doesn't even have Kihop I don't know why our server has it but it does I play SG even with 10 party members in the castle I am dropping people more than SG's and TK's with 20 party members and that says a lot about the class being skill-less. I don't know what happened to Wizards doing 7-8k bolts and then using stave crasher but now its doing 30k napalm ( 150,000 PER CAST BTW ) like hello? how is that even fair? 

+1 Please look into some of these classes for the health of our server

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I'd say i agree with most of this and the some classes really seems unbalanced and prob need a bit of twisting. If I'd disagree on one thing here it would be for the reduce values for wiz/ws g (napalm builds) 80% is prob too low since aside from forcing people to change to no gr or gtb to counter it or reduce its damage - napalm is practically useless since matk roles are either to force them to change gears or kill people thats it .... so maybe at least dropping it to like 120%~130% would sound more reasonable. 

Also im pretty sure that majority of those 30k~50k each napalm are from mb (2x of matk) which you can get as much as you want if you have an exclusive prof for it - so for me its not OP alone, its op with help. People prob just notice this more because its easier to get MB for 2x matk rather than chant for 2x attack - but if you look at it closely both are identical/same - only diff is the frequency you can get the buff at and that changes everything.

Edited by gunxsword11
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51 minutes ago, gunxsword11 said:

I'd say i agree with most of this and the some classes really seems unbalanced and prob need a bit of twisting. If I'd disagree on one thing here it would be for the reduce values for wiz/ws g (napalm builds) 80% is prob too low since aside from forcing people to change to no gr or gtb to counter it or reduce its damage - napalm is practically useless since matk roles are either to force them to change gears or kill people thats it .... so maybe at least dropping it to like 120%~130% would sound more reasonable. 

Also im pretty sure that majority of those 30k~50k each napalm are from mb (2x of matk) which you can get as much as you want if you have an exclusive prof for it - so for me its not OP alone, its op with help. People prob just notice this more because its easier to get MB for 2x matk rather than chant for 2x attack - but if you look at it closely both are identical/same - only diff is the frequency you can get the buff at and that changes everything.

Napalm is most definitely not useless at all, on a server where everyone's forced to wear GR. You're looking at this from an all too perfect angle where someone's going to have a pally devoing them, meanwhile people like me are snapping through a castle and a wizard only has to catch me for a split second with MB to kill me instantly with no counter-play whatsoever. A high wizard's job has never been to take out single targets but rather do huge amounts of aoe damage, especially in a woe setting. Instead of complementing the class itself they've gone ahead and made it a glass cannon assassin that does over 170k damage with a single use of napalm - a skill with pretty much no delay. Whitesmith Guardian is a prime example of this, being given Napalm and Stave as well as absurd amounts of MATK (80%) just for the class to be able to make good use of it - why even is this a thing in the first place? It makes absolutely no sense.

After taking a look though, I felt like 80% might have been a bit too severe and 100% looks to be around the spot where it'd still be able to do somewhat devastating damage while leaving room for counter-play at the same time. The frequency at which you get both buffs makes all the difference, MB is readily available at a moments notice whereas 2x ATK isn't.

 

Let's look at this way, a high wizard as it stands currently can lay waste to anyone that isn't being supported by a pally or doesn't have gtb on, but then swap those roles around and put a champion in the place of a high wizard and apparently the class that's supposedly supposed to have the highest single target damage in the game isn't capable of doing that? I'm not saying champ needs to ever be in a position where it can and should do that, this is merely for comparison. The fact that this class (regardless of whether or not it needs a buff or not, which by the way is readily available at a moments notice) can delete players like that is an extremely toxic aspect of the meta right now.


TL;DR - One shot meta is toxic. No room for counter-play or strategy.

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yo meet whatever u just proposed all the classes have been nerfed recently and also SG has been nerfed ages ago. You have only recently come back and u expect whole server to throw a red carpet and agree to everything u say.

Like Wiz just got nerfed their dmg doesn't cross 120k Each napalm with max Dmg build unles(Mystic or Mind break) It used to be 250k before w/o buffs lol.

GS the nerf u suggest is reduce dmg even more when it was just nerfed that's fair but then increase their hp significantly then caz they got really low Hp ( u want balance? suggest it properly) .

WS- this is where u g0t 0 knowledge of this game The ws g ring is the brain child of Mizel ( the ring has only 1 skill Napalm and no other unlike wiz g ring where they got many skills) like literally renders the class useless if gtb or non gr and u wanna sit and nerf it(after it was already nerfed just a while ago). *Slow Clap*
Instead try to come up with a Change for the entire ring ill agree with u infact id applaud u.

Though please stop suggesting stuff w/o actually playing the class also making it unbalanced. U nerf smthing add smthing instead. 
And u have forgotten the most crucial class of all Champs 1 class periodically ppl complain about always and u haven't even mentioned it Why? caz u play it as simple as that.

Also your entire argument is flawed ( Magic class has the easiest counter in the world its called a gtb / Where as champs what do u do to counter them enlighten me Caz anything u do to counter them u risk being vulnerable to other classes) And as for Pally support any class can be equally good with pally support u wanna sit and snap around and run into Mind breaked wizards and WS that's on u not the class or other players fault that hes op. Just use counters which are very easy btw or take the help of a pally and go gtb ( bless ace shld help u there maybe get 1) 

I cld agree with the Gypsy/clown G but seems a bit too much of a nerf since its already just 90-100k dmg. Id say reduce their hp buff that shld work better ( it makes them be glass cannons or if they want HP sacrifice dmg) More simpler id say


 

Edited by c0okiee
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1 hour ago, c0okiee said:

yo meet whatever u just proposed all the classes have been nerfed recently and also SG has been nerfed ages ago. You have only recently come back and u expect whole server to throw a red carpet and agree to everything u say.

Like Wiz just got nerfed their dmg doesn't cross 120k Each napalm with max Dmg build unles(Mystic or Mind break) It used to be 250k before w/o buffs lol.

GS the nerf u suggest is reduce dmg even more when it was just nerfed that's fair but then increase their hp significantly then caz they got really low Hp ( u want balance? suggest it properly) .

WS- this is where u g0t 0 knowledge of this game The ws g ring is the brain child of Mizel ( the ring has only 1 skill Napalm and no other unlike wiz g ring where they got many skills) like literally renders the class useless if gtb or non gr and u wanna sit and nerf it(after it was already nerfed just a while ago). *Slow Clap*
Instead try to come up with a Change for the entire ring ill agree with u infact id applaud u.

Though please stop suggesting stuff w/o actually playing the class also making it unbalanced. U nerf smthing add smthing instead. 
And u have forgotten the most crucial class of all Champs 1 class periodically ppl complain about always and u haven't even mentioned it Why? caz u play it as simple as that.

Also your entire argument is flawed ( Magic class has the easiest counter in the world its called a gtb / Where as champs what do u do to counter them enlighten me Caz anything u do to counter them u risk being vulnerable to other classes) And as for Pally support any class can be equally good with pally support u wanna sit and snap around and run into Mind breaked wizards and WS that's on u not the class or other players fault that hes op. Just use counters which are very easy btw or take the help of a pally and go gtb ( bless ace shld help u there maybe get 1) 

I cld agree with the Gypsy/clown G but seems a bit too much of a nerf since its already just 90-100k dmg. Id say reduce their hp buff that shld work better ( it makes them be glass cannons or if they want HP sacrifice dmg) More simpler id say


 

Just because a class has been nerfed recently doesn't mean it can't be nerfed again if it isn't balanced.  

Wizard used to be a class that was known to spam bolts and mainly Meteor Storm but now it's a straight up assassin.. you claim it doesn't cross 120K ( it does but lets just go with your assumption ) // even if it doesn't cross 120k it does nearly 90-100k per cast and with how accessible MB nowadays doing 170~200k per skill cast is just not fair. It doesn't matter if it used to do a certain amount of damage, I do not understand why you feel like that will help your argument as to why it shouldn't change again. It got nerfed before sure but that does NOT automatically mean its balanced because it used to do x amount of damage and then now it does y amount of damage.

Whitesmith it doesn't have to be nerfed, I agree that it is not a huge problem, but with MB the class still has the ability to 1 skill you and you're dead. I agree with you on that the class is useless if on gtb or non GR but what I don't understand is why you're attacking him and being subliminal instead of just proving your point

You don't really have to play the class to understand if its unbalanced or not.. in fact playing the class would create a bigger bias toward how unbalanced it is LOL dude talking about Champs? You claim that you shouldn't suggest stuff w/o playing the class but I haven't ever seen you play champ so don't talk about Champ. People believe that Champ is the most OP class because they see the people play champ for YEARS and have perfected the class. Champ is the hardest class in the game, takes the longest time to learn, so I don't see why it shouldn't be rewarded rather than playing a class that 1 shots people. No other class requires the same amount of skill as Champ and none of you can disagree with me on this because none of you play Champ. Everybody watches the current Champs but ironically the few current Champs are the people that are already known for their ability to play Champ. Would any beginner Champ be able to do the stuff that the top Champs do? NO...... you wouldn't think a beginner Champ is op at all and that's facts. I thought the people that spent the time to perfect their class would be the best, and that rule still applies mainly Champ it seems like. Not anyone can play Champ and be at the top with the players that have played Champ for their whole PvP life. Anyone can play a broken class that uses one skill that does 100k+ with 300K HP and do the same stuff people that have played the class for a long time have done

Lol you contradicted yourself again by saying " Magic class has the easiest counter in the world its called a gtb / Where as champs what do you do to counter because anything you do to counter them you risk being vulnerable to other classes " you clearly just proved our point. You believe that when you switch to counter champs you risk being vulnerable to other classes.... what do you think happens when you switch to counter magic classes? There are way more ways to counter Champ including orc lords which straight up kills yourself or your pally which is the class you believe all classes are equal if they are with one LOL
?

You play Super Novice a class that does 100K with 500k HP while running full AGI / Flee so I'm just gonna say you should please stop suggestion stuff w/o actually playing the class like you claimed above about Influx. If you're gonna disagree at least try to make it formal or have proper grammar because it was really tough to take this seriously, it feels like someone with no education typed it. It is clear that instead of writing a proper constructed rebuttal with half decent grammar you are making this out of spite.

 

 

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I was reffering to their redux Nerf brian ( what was really cancer was they could do 250k Napalms with 95% dmg redux) that's changed now 


Uhh 2 ols isn't a counter its a suicide bomber there's a bit of a difference I didn't contradict myself. This isn't some University where standards of some ones typing has to be accurate/Perfect . You wanna be aggressive at me that's fine but still what ive said isn't wrong so attack me if you want and what I said is understandable so if u cant understand it that aint my fault I apologize if it was. 
 As for the SN please Brian Play the class if u want its got many counters. As for the 100k mamo and huge HP I agree that was the recent 30% attack buff that was given to weapon I was wondering why they got a buff and asked for a nerf u can talk to GM Ebisu about it.
As for the playing champ part fine lemme fight u then, im no good on the class but if u allow David to give me pally devo I could pack a punch and show u. As for the out of spite part maybe it was out of a bit spite since hes targeting a class that has already been nerfed maybe( WS ) and also hes got an attitude im not comfortable with. 
Ur Biased in this situation towards Meet there are plenty of unbalanced classes I agreed to that too But what hes suggesting is nerfing w/o balance as I pointed out if u cant see that then clearly ur mistaken again.
 

Edited by c0okiee
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27 minutes ago, Brianology said:

You play Super Novice a class that does 100K with 500k HP while running full AGI / Flee so I'm just gonna say you should please stop suggestion stuff w/o actually playing the class like you claimed above about Influx. If you're gonna disagree at least try to make it formal or have proper grammar because it was really tough to take this seriously, it feels like someone with no education typed it. It is clear that instead of writing a proper constructed rebuttal with half decent grammar you are making this out of spite.

clearly this wasn't spite at all. no need to say im not educated brian I can show u my Undergrad+ Post grad + Thesis + grades if u want  ( Education doesn't mean u need to type 100% accurately u can be brief and use acronyms and be to the point and yet be educated
That's quite insulting

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2 minutes ago, c0okiee said:

clearly this wasn't spite at all. no need to say im not educated brian I can show u my Undergrad+ Post grad + Thesis + grades if u want  ( Education doesn't mean u need to type 100% accurately u can be brief and use acronyms and be to the point and yet be educated
That's quite insulting

Didn't say you weren't educated, obviously you have an education lol. I said it feels like somebody with no education typed it because of the grammar.

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As I said again u know sm1 w/o an education typed it how? is the sentence understandable like w/o the grammar just the English typed. Caz most uneducated people can type as well I can name at least 40 Successful business people who have succeeded in life w/o an education yet they can type really well too. 
You want to insult some1 for not being educated too? That's show 0 sensibility people are people they do not need an education just to make  a point.
Language is a mode of communication to make bonds or understanding between people .You need to be more understanding and mature enough to know that.

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Are you even reading what i'm typing? I said it FEELS like it I DID NOT say someone without an education typed it. I also explained already as to why. Read at how you construct your posts man, stop trying to prove your point. I don't even know why you're this upset, just read what I say instead of repeating yourself. I even said myself "obviously you have an education" I don't know what you're trying to get at here, are you trying to prove something? No need to bring it back up when I already explained myself.

Also it's not about the fact that you can't type, its what you type. There is a huge difference, look at your posts. I am 100% sure those 40 "successful business people" will NOT type the way you do with that grammar.

Edited by Brianology
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this is just forums for another topic dude u do not need to be so aggressive at me. Ive typed about 5 sentences and only of which 1 sentence was aggressive or targeted at meet. uve Typed a comeback at me with 3 paragraphs however Accurate it is it was only to get back at me not prove a point though. Please be brief and to the point next time. 

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50 minutes ago, Brianology said:

it feels like someone with no education typed it.

are u seriously telling me u typed this with 0 spite? U targeted this at me + uve just insulted every non educated person in this world saying they cant type. Please u need to step off ur mighty horse sir People do not need education to communicate is all im saying. 

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Lol reread your post man, you targeted him about 3-4 times. The only thing that I've said about you is about you playing Super Novice.

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2 minutes ago, c0okiee said:

are u seriously telling me u typed this with 0 spite? U targeted this at me + uve just insulted every non educated person in this world saying they cant type. Please u need to step off ur mighty horse sir People do not need education to communicate is all im saying. 

I really am trying to be reasonable here so listen with your thick skull. How have I insulted every non educated person in the world? I didn't say they cant type so don't put words into my mouth. The only reason I said that was because of your grammar, and if you can't realize that there's a bigger problem here

Edited by Brianology
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u know what brian I think ur delusional ur contradicting urself here. Ur saying my typing is by sm1 whos not educated( but u know im educated) Yet people seem to understand it please explain to me why do u believe only educated people have a standing OR Right to type on this forums - Enlighten me

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34 minutes ago, c0okiee said:

I was reffering to their redux Nerf brian ( what was really cancer was they could do 250k Napalms with 95% dmg redux) that's changed now 


Uhh 2 ols isn't a counter its a suicide bomber there's a bit of a difference I didn't contradict myself. This isn't some University where standards of some ones typing has to be accurate/Perfect . You wanna be aggressive at me that's fine but still what ive said isn't wrong so attack me if you want and what I said is understandable so if u cant understand it that aint my fault I apologize if it was. 
 As for the SN please Brian Play the class if u want its got many counters. As for the 100k mamo and huge HP I agree that was the recent 30% attack buff that was given to weapon I was wondering why they got a buff and asked for a nerf u can talk to GM Ebisu about it.
As for the playing champ part fine lemme fight u then, im no good on the class but if u allow David to give me pally devo I could pack a punch and show u. As for the out of spite part maybe it was out of a bit spite since hes targeting a class that has already been nerfed maybe( WS ) and also hes got an attitude im not comfortable with. 
Ur Biased in this situation towards Meet there are plenty of unbalanced classes I agreed to that too But what hes suggesting is nerfing w/o balance as I pointed out if u cant see that then clearly ur mistaken again.
 

As for this, OL isn't the only counter man, there's cards out there to counter champ and we both know that. If you wanna fight come fight me Champ vs Champ and you'll see the difference between us. Sure there will be a difference between all classes but not to the extremities of Champ. Any one can play a broken class that 1 skills people but not everyone can play Champ. He also genuinely isn't targeting WS, in fact I agree with you that WS is fine as it is and it doesn't really need to be changed

 I understand that you guys don't like each other but keep that on the side all he was trying to do was make a suggestion and you attacked him.

Edited by Brianology
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4 minutes ago, c0okiee said:

u know what brian I think ur delusional ur contradicting urself here. Ur saying my typing is by sm1 whos not educated( but u know im educated) Yet people seem to understand it please explain to me why do u believe only educated people have a standing OR Right to type on this forums - Enlighten me

Just because somebody isn't educated doesn't mean they aren't understandable. I didn't say only educated people should have a say in the forums, all I did was imply that your grammar in the post is bad. Stop putting words in my mouth let's end this nonsense unless you really want to go down that path and embarrass yourself.

Edited by Brianology
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Ur acting like a trigger happy kid u need to be more mature dude ( u certainly act like ur more mature then all of us all the time) so why not prove it with your typing or comments as well 
im not putting words in ur mouth uve put words in mine with ur comeback.

 

Edited by c0okiee
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1 minute ago, c0okiee said:

Ur acting like a trigger happy kid u need to be more mature dude ( u certainly act like ur more mature then all of us all the time) so why not prove it with your typing or comments as well 

what the fuck are you even talking about? you really want to flood this topic because you're too hard-headed to accept one small thing I said about you? imagine if I insulted you directly. you don't want to start insulting vs me, lets just end this here and move on?

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all I was being was defensive Brian the only part I was actually being mean was 

3 hours ago, c0okiee said:

yo meet whatever u just proposed all the classes have been nerfed recently and also SG has been nerfed ages ago. You have only recently come back and u expect whole server to throw a red carpet and agree to everything u say.

Like Wiz just got nerfed their dmg doesn't cross 120k Each napalm with max Dmg build unles(Mystic or Mind break) It used to be 250k before w/o buffs lol.

GS the nerf u suggest is reduce dmg even more when it was just nerfed that's fair but then increase their hp significantly then caz they got really low Hp ( u want balance? suggest it properly) .

WS- this is where u g0t 0 knowledge of this game The ws g ring is the brain child of Mizel ( the ring has only 1 skill Napalm and no other unlike wiz g ring where they got many skills) like literally renders the class useless if gtb or non gr and u wanna sit and nerf it(after it was already nerfed just a while ago). *Slow Clap*
Instead try to come up with a Change for the entire ring ill agree with u infact id applaud u.

Though please stop suggesting stuff w/o actually playing the class also making it unbalanced. U nerf smthing add smthing instead. 
And u have forgotten the most crucial class of all Champs 1 class periodically ppl complain about always and u haven't even mentioned it Why? caz u play it as simple as that.

Also your entire argument is flawed ( Magic class has the easiest counter in the world its called a gtb / Where as champs what do u do to counter them enlighten me Caz anything u do to counter them u risk being vulnerable to other classes) And as for Pally support any class can be equally good with pally support u wanna sit and snap around and run into Mind breaked wizards and WS that's on u not the class or other players fault that hes op. Just use counters which are very easy btw or take the help of a pally and go gtb ( bless ace shld help u there maybe get 1) 

I cld agree with the Gypsy/clown G but seems a bit too much of a nerf since its already just 90-100k dmg. Id say reduce their hp buff that shld work better ( it makes them be glass cannons or if they want HP sacrifice dmg) More simpler id say

 

Edited by c0okiee
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3 hours ago, c0okiee said:

You have only recently come back and u expect whole server to throw a red carpet and agree to everything u say.

this 1 comment that's it rest I did make sense but u wanna be aggressive and call me undedicated or wot not clearly ur the better man I wont stop since u know it all.

Edited by c0okiee
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And everything has to be a fight for you. I ask u to enlighten me and u criticize me again.

8 minutes ago, Brianology said:

you really want to go down that path and embarrass yourself.

 

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are you even reading what I am saying? I didn't say you were uneducated and said it multiple times after also. I don't want to argue with you

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4 minutes ago, Brianology said:

what the fuck are you even talking about? you really want to flood this topic because you're too hard-headed to accept one small thing I said about you? imagine if I insulted you directly. you don't want to start insulting vs me, lets just end this here and move on?

There we go It just has to be about fights with you and clearly insulting some one is very justifiable to u. all I called u was a trigger happy kid that doesn't even count as an insult. 

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