Ladder Ratio Suggestion

[Xtopher]

Current rule:

"Note: If your deaths exceed 50% of your kills (i.e. if you have 100 kills and more than 50 deaths) you will receive 4 PvP Ladder Tokens instead of 10 PvP Ladder Tokens. Prizes will be given out after the ladder week has been posted"

I think that this rule needs to be changed.

My suggested change: If your deaths exceed 50% of your kills you are removed from the weeks ladder entirely. Meaning who ever was below you will take your slot.

Example:

Mr X : 1000/300

Mr Y: 600/200

Mr Z: 200/140

Mr SrubbyMcNoob: 150/50

Mr Z would be disqualified from the 3rd place position and removed from the ladder for that week. ScrubbyMcNoob would take his place as 3rd place and receive the prize.

My reason: This is meant to promote team play in PvP and less what I'll call "buff-and-burn players".

A buff-and-burn player will get full buffs (whether that be Mind Break/Provoke/ Gospel), run into pvp and try to kill as many people as possible before dying. This person will most likely equip items like orc lords as they have no hope of survival, they just want as many kills in a few seconds as possible.

This play style is simply the easy way out for many people. A champ can run in and asura paladins or people with orc lords with 2x atk and take them with them. Doing this enough times they can get up to 2nd or 3rd place with a ratio like 200/250 and still get a prize. I don't believe this is fair.

Even without buffs it isn't hard to run in and bolt the crap out of unsuspecting people then default maya/orc lord to try to pick up that extra kill when the whole team stops shitting themselves and focuses you.

I don't believe these players should be rewarded for this kind of game-play over people who keep decent ratios. More team play leads to a more active ladder, a more active PvP room, and a more active server.

I believe Gene Wilder puts it best:

Edited December 10, 2011 by Xtopher

[Boogieman]

I don't want to outright argue with you but when I hear 'teamplay in PvP', I'm reminded of all

the times I get 5v1'd. Not fun for me. Encouraging strict teamplay only pushes newer people

further from the competition.

Not everyone has someone to PvP with. Some of us have to buff and burn if we're ever going

to see the inside of the PvP rooms. My HW has to hit hard and hit fast before someone wiggles

their little toe and I fall over dead.

Is the ratio system even enforced? I recall it was basically overlooked for a year or two.

[Xtopher]

@ Cassiopeia: The ranks on ladder are already VERY low. You can win first place with like... 400 kills? That was unheard of a year ago.

My last ladder was approximately a year ago and I had 1.1k kills in one week. The rules aren't the blame for low ranks. The reason it's like this is because of lack of interest. Almost everyone with a half decent amount of gear has some form of sacred wings at this point. There are so many of them on the market being traded that people aren't compelled to ladder as much as they used to be. PvP tokens are hard as hell to sell these days. Just ask Mokeru or Drew. This will only be fixed when new prizes are put in, which is an entirely different discussion.

@ Boogieman: I know this may sound a tad harsh but the laddering system isn't for random low-geared people. Its meant to be the place where veteran players with gear show off their pvp skills and for large scale gang fights.

Newer players should be questing or farming to acquire equipment, not laddering.

Side Note: Wizards don't stand a snowballs chance in hell in our PvP room friend.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Xtopher

[Boogieman]

Point taken. I reluctantly agree with your laddering point of view, but do you think

instead of being completely dropped from the ladder you could just be demoted 1

rank. ... or something completely different 50%=demoted once, 60%=removed for the

week.

Side Note: Wizards don't stand a snowballs chance in hell in our PvP room friend.

Hahahaha. I couldn't have said it better.

I love it when they don't even attack me. They just say 'hi' and keep going about their

business and let me sit quietly in the corner, err middle.

Edit :: Char has a point about the incentives overall, X has a point about where things

stand at this moment.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Boogieman

[kuoch]

I've always thought this way for years now, Chris. But the thing is, PvP is always about who has the bigger gang now. The aspect of "PvP" doesn't exist there anymore. People don't have the time to play, or even have the friends that are willing to help in these situations anymore. I like the idea, more of less, Chris. But that takes the advantages of people who actually tries to make it on ladder.

[Drax]

I do agree with this because even if you do have a gang of 10 people with you a full asura champ with gospel, provoke , ws buffs all that can just come in kill one person and take another kill with defaulting 2x OL's. That's not what ladder is suppose to be and has never been like that but theres so little people actually trying to do ladder now that people like this can actually take 1st and 2nd place before they wouldnt make it in the top 5 because we had more active players but things have changed. PvP ladder was suppose to be whoever can PVP the best gets first place, not whoever reflect kills enough people gets rewarded for it.

[daPabl0man]

I agree, if the case is:

1st Place: MR GangGuy with 1600:1500

2st Place: MR Solo with 1599:1

And the rule is: If your deaths exceed 50% of your kills (i.e. if you have 100 kills and more than 50 deaths) you will receive 4 PvP Ladder Tokens instead of 10 PvP Ladder Tokens.

• Using the example above the first place oviously failed at playing and should be removed, why should he get a prize or a consolation prize if he actually failed at laddering?
• The second place ratio of the example above shows a good pvper who actuallly fight to get that place but the bad thing is? he will get the same as the first place, the prize goes to the one who deserves it but who i am to judge that? thats all about the gms

PD: The example is obviously ridiculous

[Xtopher]

Char I'm reluctant to take your oppinion legitimately for a few reasons. You've been off the server for like what? A year? You can't just pop back in after being gone for so long and expect things to be the same and your opinions to still be relevant.

Have you ever laddered for first place before? And if so how many times?

It doesn't matter what the ideal situation would be; our PvP ladder is for people with the best gear and the bigger gangs. New players will NEVER stand a chance. You're speaking idealism while I'm speaking realism.

Someone who has been on this server for say 2-3 months has a great disadvantage to those who have been here years. Veterans know how the server works. They know how each class works here. And they have accumulated more items they being loyal to the server for a longer period of time.

If someone could join the server and be winning the PvP ladder solo in a matter of months then what is the point of all the veterans putting in so much work for years?

In short; PvP ladder is not for new players. It will never be. The only reason people won with non-donation gear in the past is because epic items like valk weapons/emps weren't even out or weren't available. Now emps are 295 tokens and everyone has valk weapons. New players with low-tier gear winning ladder is impossible.

[Drax]

being active in for_fild pvp is something totally different from PvP Room and as Xtopher stated I dont see how you can have a valid opinion because 1. youve never laddered and 2. been on the server for a very short period of time things have changed alot since you last quit

[Xtopher]

I never said it was irrelevant because you disagreed with me. I said so because you've never won ladder and you haven't been on the server for the last year. Helping people win is not the same as laddering yourself. The amount of time and energy you put in to keep kids with 200/300 ratios from passing you overnight I don't think you would understand. This is why I decided your opinion here was irrelevant. I've been suggesting things to help the server grow for years and I've never dismissed someones opinion just because they disagreed with me. I welcome constructive debate.

And about how the suggestion thread works. Lets line up my accepted suggestions to yours. Oh wait....

Suggestions on this server should be based on realism. Read the suggestion rules. You must consider how much work for pay off the GMs have to put in. You cannot suggest skill edits. These are not idealist rules. These are realist rules. If you want to suggest something the best way to go about it is to lay down your suggestion in a logical and well thought out way that seems like a realistic option to the other players and staff.

Factual evidence? Lol. The problem with PvP ladder is lack of interest. No one wants to devote two weeks to laddering to get something that practically everyone has. Even if they would do it they're afraid that 2-3 days before it ends some kid will just "buff-and-burn" for a few hours and get a 400/450 ratio and win 1st place from them. You speak as if the buff-and-burn strategy takes a lot of commitment or work. It doesn't. It's harder to commit to two weeks of laddering keeping a decent ratio so you actually get 10 tokens not 4.

I want the people who put in the proper work to be rewarded without having to worry about some 400/450 ratio kid robbing them two days before ladder ends. Everyone who ladders knows people like this. Everyone who ladders seriously hates when people do this. I want to make PvP ladder better for those who actually ladder.

If you've never laddered yourself you wouldn't know how goddamn stressful it is. You make yourself an enemy to practically the whole server. Even your friends get pissed at you. Staying in PvP room and keeping a decent ratio is one of the most if not the most stressful thing on this server. I think people should be rewarded for it without having to worry about these buff-and-burn kids.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Xtopher

[.Kyuubi.]

I agree completely with chris's suggestion.

Char, imo you're way too out dated to say anything about the pvp that takes place on our server, even when you where active in the past you wheren't a heavy pvper, so how can you voice opinions over a subject that you know nothing about?

I've been here since the beggining of fucking time, I'm ancient to this server and anybody who is anybody will tell you that newbies cannot win the weekly ladder, that's just how it is. Sure in the past it could be won by non donors but look at our items compared to what we had. no valk, no emps, no imps, no skull auras and VERY few sacreds (if any).

[Drax]

just because you've helped people ladder that makes you experienced in that subject? and playing for a month doesn't mean you know everything that you've missed over the years and everything current

and it's funny you say that you have been in pvp room ever since you've been back since i have maybe seen you in there once or twice.

[daPabl0man]

This suggestion goes directly to those who have made at least one ladder in their lives, those who have no idea what happens should let those who really are aware of what is happening now in the economy and competitiveness of the server give ideas that will benefit us and not leave it as it is.

[Xtopher]

The reason for those ratios is because of their classes.

Dadron3 is a sinx and a very outdated player much like yourself. To put it bluntly he is one of the worst PvPers that go into PvP room. I killed the kid multiple times with battle priest... Dadron3 is really nothing more than a feed that killed a few stranglers along the way.

Eleutherios is also an assassin.

It is hard to keep a decent ratio on sinx. They should choose a different class or get a party. Neither one of these players brings any sort of support to pvp room.

Fernando Poe Jr. is a whitesmith. Everyone on this server knows whitesmith is OP. It doesn't take much to wipe a pvp room with them at the moment. This will mostly likely be fixed soon.

[.Kyuubi.]

I'll end with I just disagree because I think that your suggestion will benefit the wrong people and I did give you factual evidence, so I don't get why you're loling.

3-4 in this case would be bumped out, while Fernando Poe, a serial "buff and burner" would take their place. Dadron3 doesn't buff, and he made PvP come alive when he started broadcasting and dueling people. The weeks before this ladder had way lower numbers. I don't think that ignoring his effort, and the efforts of some people who happen to be over 100:50, because some people play dirty, is right. It's not hard to go into pvp on a sniper and just FAS everyone either, but that's overlooked.

I'm done.

god you're a moron you have NO idea what that shitty dadron3 kid was doing, he'd go in there with sinx on X2 OL and buff for sonic blow and get DESTROYED, he pvp's for MAYBE 2days maximum and look at his ratio, you think he deserves anything? fuck no

[Drax]

If by "active" you mean feeding free kills and taking a kill or 2 here and there off OL's then yea he did make pvp active for a couple mins here and there but brought nothing positive

[Dudu]

Char, problem is, if you try to compare the PVP back from the Days, ND and stuff, you just cant. fRO has evolved in a level that, in order to win this ladder, you need help from others, because of the buffs and nerfs, new weaps and stuff, things that you havent seen in a while since you were gone for a while. I think, like Pablo said, leave this suggestions to people PvP active and go help other suggestions.

I am totally agree with this suggestion, if you have a bad ratio, you shouldnt be rewarded, its like school, bad grades = no gifts.

[daPabl0man]

^

[Forum~]

My reason: This is meant to promote team play in PvP and less what I'll call "buff-and-burn players".

A buff-and-burn player will get full buffs (whether that be Mind Break/Provoke/ Gospel), run into pvp and try to kill as many people as possible before dying. This person will most likely equip items like orc lords as they have no hope of survival, they just want as many kills in a few seconds as possible.

This play style is simply the easy way out for many people. A champ can run in and asura paladins or people with orc lords with 2x atk and take them with them. Doing this enough times they can get up to 2nd or 3rd place with a ratio like 200/250 and still get a prize. I don't believe this is fair.

Even without buffs it isn't hard to run in and bolt the crap out of unsuspecting people then default maya/orc lord to try to pick up that extra kill when the whole team stops shitting themselves and focuses you.

I don't believe these players should be rewarded for this kind of game-play over people who keep decent ratios. More team play leads to a more active ladder, a more active PvP room, and a more active server.

Chris, I appreciate the merit and effort found in this suggestion. As someone who has laddered three times now (so far), I have encountered many of these "buff-and burn players". Likewise, I also believe that these "buff-and-burn players" do NOT deserve any rewards for the actions you describe above. I can even go as far as to say that this is not really "PvPing".

So, in short, let me start off by first saying that I agree with you on the fact that we both do not wish to see "buff-and-burn players" benefiting for their "style" of PvPing.

HOWEVER, I think you have only hit the problem on the surface. I do not believe the ROOT of the problem lies within the ratio aspect of the PvP ladder. I also do not believe that following your suggestion will discourage "buff-and-burn players" from continuing in their ways. What I am getting at is that your suggestion is not FOOL-PROOF. "Buff-and-burn players" will still be able to catch legitimate players off guard and rack kills.

My argument is as follows- the problem lies in the fact that players are able to BUFF before going into the PvP ladder. Therefore, the PvP NPC should dispel the player upon warping in, much like how the GvG/LMS NPC dispels the player when they warp in. Thus, my argument for solving the problem is to remove buffs on players before the players warps into the PvP room.

I will now present advantages found in my suggestion. This list is not wholly inclusive to the range of possible advantages found in this suggestion.

1. First and foremost, it removes the problem of "buff-and-burn players" completely without any exceptions. No player will be able to "buff-and-burn" unless they do so within the PvP room.

2. It makes buff-centric classes more open to the possibility of necessity INSIDE the PvP room. This means creators (FCP), priests (variety of buffs), paladin (gospel, provoke), etc, players benefit as they are now needed by the participants of PvP ladder for buffs. On the long run this promotes and encourages PvP activity.

I will also attempt to resolve any counterarguments you may possibly present. Again, this list is not inclusive to the range of possible counterarguments people may present.

1. What about FCP? This will mean dex-centric classes and classes that can break equipment will have an unfair advantage in PvP. This is a serious problem, I agree. However, because the problem of "buff-and-burn" is so serious, I think this suggestion outweighs in its presented pros than the presented cons.

The only serious fix to the counterargument above that I can imagine is this:

1. PvP NPC dispels all buffs BUT FCP. Not sure how this will be implemented.

2. PvP NPC dispels all buffs. If you carry an FCP bottle as you warp in, the act of warping in will cast FCP on you as you spawn in the PvP room. If you do not have an FCP bottle as you warp in, nothing will happen. Arguing that this will demote creator to simply a "FCP-slave" is not valid because they have other functions such as providing additional FCP when it runs out or attacking (acid bombing, bolting, mammonite-ing, etc). Creators are still needed for other PvP-oriented events the server offers. This fix does not in any way make creator as a class moot. It simply provides a player with a function they would have done anyways on their own creators. I can even say that it makes the whole process better as one does not have to open a second client (slowing computer performance by taking RAM memory) to FCP before going into the PvP room. Thus, players have the chance to optimally present their skills in PvP, and not blame something like "my computer is slow".

Well there you go. Respond with rational arguments, if you choose to do so. Outright disagreement has no merit and makes your post moot. Additionally, it even goes as far as to prove that my suggestion was correct, if there is nothing you can refute.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Forum~

[Xtopher]

I'm glad to see another ladder contestant agreeing with me about these buff-and-burn type players.

Well the two are very different suggestions.

I think its logical to implement what I've suggested in addition to what you've suggested.

As I've said in your thread: I can agree with dispelling everything but FCP. I'm pretty sure this is possible.

I think a combination of the two suggestions would lead to the best ladder results.

Thanks for the post.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Xtopher

[kuoch]

The only serious fix to the counterargument above that I can imagine is this:

1. PvP NPC dispels all buffs BUT FCP. Not sure how this will be implemented.

2. PvP NPC dispels all buffs. If you carry an FCP bottle as you warp in, the act of warping in will cast FCP on you as you spawn in the PvP room. If you do not have an FCP bottle as you warp in, nothing will happen. Arguing that this will demote creator to simply a "FCP-slave" is not valid because they have other functions such as providing additional FCP when it runs out or attacking (acid bombing, bolting, mammonite-ing, etc). Creators are still needed for other PvP-oriented events the server offers. This fix does not in any way make creator as a class moot. It simply provides a player with a function they would have done anyways on their own creators. I can even say that it makes the whole process better as one does not have to open a second client (slowing computer performance by taking RAM memory) to FCP before going into the PvP room. Thus, players have the chance to optimally present their skills in PvP, and not blame something like "my computer is slow".

Have this put in and we all have a fun Pvp arena for everyone. +1

[sessions]

Well, this is interesting. To be honest I don't see why you guys are so worked up about this.

Anyway.

First of all, I don't see the reason for the ad hominem attacks on Char. Okay so she's been gone for awhile but she's been back for a month now. It doesn't take much time to realize what is wrong with Ladder. Completely disregarding someone's opinion because of this is just dumb. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just because it doesn't agree with yours doesn't mean you have to get so butthurt.

Now onto my opinion.

Let's take a look at the past 2 ladders as an example. Last week was 1)Java 2) Nila 3) Dadron3. Java (Drew) wins because of his gang. Peter, Mike, and I are on most of the time to help him ladder plus others. Nila (Cole) can do just fine because he's geared out the ass and can wreck the gang above with a few swift FAS not to mention he is on most of the time anyway. Dadron3 got on there because he was in PvP so often and probably tried harder than anyone else to ladder. Maybe he didn't go about it the best way and maybe he did end with like 300:500 ratio but still at least he put the effort in. So with your rule Dadron would be out and so would the next guy. Who does that leave? Oh Fernando, the guy who fed with like 5 ungeared characters for hours once late at night. So technically he would be out too. Finally it comes to Excellent~, the guy who quit laddering after the first week. Now the point of this long explanation of the obvious is how ridiculous it could get from this rule. 3-5 would all be dropped leaving 6th place as the winner. And this is an exception of a week seeing as the top 6 all have over 100 kills. Most times the 6th place person could have as low as 50 kills.

The week before this ended up as this:

1) Java 2) Nila 3) Prophecy

Once again Java- win because of gang

Nila- gang and solo fas owning.

Prophecy was helping Java gang.

Oh and they all had kds of like 3:1 or better.

So for three reasons I disagree with this.

A) It could get stupid like if it were in place last week. People as low as 6th, maybe lower, could end up in 3rd. This encourages laziness on ladder if someone like Dadron3, who works hard even if he failed, decides to ladder.

B) What would this even change? If you check out the latest ladder you'll see Java, then Nila, then some other dude. omg what a surprise!!!!!!! who would have thought those two would be winning again. And as usual they have perfectly good ratios. 3rd place is probably going to be fine as far as his ratio goes since he edps every time you try to touch him. So in the end this rule may make a difference here and there for 3rd place but the big money makers of 1st and 2nd are probably going to be unaffected.

C) If you haven't noticed a common theme between Java and Nila's good ratio-they both either have a gang or solo because of snipers being pretty dominant.

This rule I believe encourages more ganging and/or super buffs to kill 5-6 people then edp out of there. With a need for better kd in all aspects it forces so-called unfair PvP. What better way to avoid dying than getting a nice gang with a pally, prof, clown, etc to help you out? Or if you don't have friends who want to help ya out why not just dual client a pally and a ws and go to town on PvP. You'll probably get 5 kills if the 1st place person's gang is there and probably semi afk because PvP is dead. You can probably avoid dying altogether just by drinking some EDP. I feel like this suggestion makes full buff randoming and ganging even more of a problem and discourages people from actually trying hard to get kills in PvP (like Dadron).

P.S. I've laddered twice on my own and am on my third ladder with Java so don't even say I don't know what I'm talking about ;)

[Xtopher]

You guys are missing the point. If this rule was in place you would not have people with 200:400 ratios because they would know they're not getting anything. Why would they keep coming in? They're just feeds.

You're right, everyone is entitled to their opinions... But that doesn't mean I have to take it into consideration. If you simply don't know what you're talking about I don't have to listen to you.

The rule encourages getting MORE PEOPLE in the PvP room. Who wants to go in PvP just to see/fight some kid with full buffs and orc lords?

I'm not disregarding Dadron3's work. Sure, I'm sure he put in some effort to get his 300/550 ratio he has now. But do I think he should be rewarded for simply sonic blowing and wearing orc lords while feeding? No.

Edu put it very well. If you bring home bad grades from school you'll get no rewards.

Oh and about your laddering... People were logging on your account to wrack up kills while you were gone... So maybe you should refine that whole "laddered twice on my own phrase". Give John some credit for what he did for you. I don't disregard what you say though, you have laddered.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Xtopher

[Forum~]

I'm glad to see another ladder contestant agreeing with me about these buff-and-burn type players.

Well the two are very different suggestions.

I think its logical to implement what I've suggested in addition to what you've suggested.

As I've said in your thread: I can agree with dispelling everything but FCP. I'm pretty sure this is possible.

I think a combination of the two suggestions would lead to the best ladder results.

Thanks for the post.

No problem. And yeah, if I gave off the disposition of disagreeing with your post, I did not mean to do so. As you say, a combination of the two suggestions would be the most optimal. Edited December 10, 2011 by Forum~

[Xtopher]

Edited first post. We all need to loosen up a bit.