Balance Suggestions

[Ravage]

Fcp for 10 minutes does seem a little gay to me but, I also think if we reduce the time it will bring more alchemist characters to the game and we can also make that class more balanced and pvp worthy.

Im on for making fcp time like 5 - 7 minutes.

Snipers, Keep strip. No reason to even argue its good to have for them since that was there main part before and since they don't have range strip its like 1 cell away....why take it away. Stun lock isn't a problem really because guess what snipers have. WE HAVE SKID TRAPS YAYA AND WE CAN USE THEM ON OUR SELFS YAY YAY YAY

=.=

Also add 50k hp to snipers, and make one handed katar and give frigg shield 20% more reducts for sniper and give me a fuckin ion lazer for my damn priest so I can fckin shoop da woop some ones ass

Awesome! I'm glad you agree with the FCP duration! And I see your point in us having strip. I remember, we could switch to dagger for strip before the fbow had level 10 inc weight. Daggers just became unable to switch to with increase weight 10 on bows. It was easier to card a dagger to suit strategic needs instead of not having daggers to apply other strategies than bow ones... A slotted dagger with level 10 inc weight sounds worth switching to isntead. It also will not affect the strength of the bow directly, only when bows are SOL against reducs does the dagger come into play.

As for stun lock and using skid traps to get away. I've used that enough to find that its flawed and easy to kill a sniper's skidding away with bugs and flaws. View stun lock as a bug since sniper's were not meant to be as affected by it than it is!

Have u been stun locked on the same cell as a melee character with anti-knock back? The trap ends up on them instead of us, leaving us still stuck! Even when they dont have anti-knock back, stun lock becomes an issue to the point where u cant even click on the character!! We dont need to get away all the time, but theres bugs for long ranged attack. I click on the opponent near me and the person on the edge of my screen is the one attacked?? I've seen every sniper do this. Not misclicks, bugs.

Ny understanding is that sniper's traps were originally buffed indirectly with wind walker with the release of transcedent classes. Wind walker allowed us to step a few cells away faster to make a gap and actually get a trap down. It also helped snipers' field control by allowing them to move faster around the field. Endure will allow snipers to utilize its trap strategies by reinforcing wind walker.

Even if you didnt take away strip, endure will help buff the nerfed traps. You dont have to choose between either, you can seperate them. [(Bow - Strip) + Endure] and [Dagger[4] + increase weight 10]

You all gave me a better point. I think strip in the sniper bow should be replaced for a dagger! And endure added to the bow to buff traps.

On a side note for whoever is still reading:

Since i'm posting, i want to bring up another aspect for consideration. How do you give the poor a chance against the rich? The rich person will naturally be better equipped so you give the poor strategies and skills, like strip, to be able to counter someone with better gears. Poor doesnt mean noob.. what about people who got hacked but still love the game? FCP kills that balance too.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Ravage

[Rune]

Look into this point of view; Professors, Wizzards, Stalkers and Snipers are dependant on their weapons to be able to simply act. A metaling card can completely cripple them on the spot if they're not protected. The server is extremely gear-oriented, stripping is an very cruel tactic.

With 'Stalkers are over-reliant on their strip' i mean; Full Strip should be the trump card up their sleeve...not their bread and butter, and the same applies to all stripping strategies that don't belong only to stalker. As it stood, Stalkers would win easily as long as they could strip, and lose just as easily if they couldn't, this scenario is proof of weakness of the class.

Now you look at this bigger picture; For the last months/years of FRo, STR-oriented classes where undisputed as the DEX and INT based ones where always eclipsed by them. Through buffs given by new items released, INT and DEX classes are now up to par to them in many scenarios, that, my good player, is balance; fair chance to all in the same environment.

Make no mistake; high rates revolve around damage and good gear. Skills such as Lex Divina, Dazzler and Hammerfall which were keys to some jobs became useless in this scenario, so they must adapt.

Even on full strip, a high leveled Sinx, Wizzard, High Priest, etc, was still functional on a low rate standard, in a high rate that revolves so much around gear such as ours, Full Strip would be equivalent to a skill that makes a 99/70 into a 10/1, being such a powerful debuff that strip is, and accessible to all for use through rare cards and items turn common, it needs a counter up to par, which the easy access to FCP makes up for just in the right measure.

Even if FCP lasted half of what it does, simply walking up to someone and hitting them for 30 seconds and have them drop(thus dispelling the buff), is much easier than waiting for 5 minutes so you can strip

As conclusion; FCP's duration is fine as it is(it wasn't altered in the server or anything, it is like this in its original programation). The reason why it should stay as is; many, if not all, classes currently need and rely on their gear in order to so much as simply DO something, that's how the server is. Strip in most cases is just a 'one shot win'. In my oppinion, who wants to just strip and rely on it too much is just someone who wants to score easy wins; strip should be a side strategy to use once in a while on a tight spot...not a main Modus Operandi.

[Ravage]

Look into this point of view; Professors, Wizzards, Stalkers and Snipers are dependant on their weapons to be able to simply act. A metaling card can completely cripple them on the spot if they're not protected. The server is extremely gear-oriented, stripping is an very cruel tactic.

With 'Stalkers are over-reliant on their strip' i mean; Full Strip should be the trump card up their sleeve...not their bread and butter, and the same applies to all stripping strategies that don't belong only to stalker. As it stood, Stalkers would win easily as long as they could strip, and lose just as easily if they couldn't, this scenario is proof of weakness of the class.

Now you look at this bigger picture; For the last months/years of FRo, STR-oriented classes where undisputed as the DEX and INT based ones where always eclipsed by them. Through buffs given by new items released, INT and DEX classes are now up to par to them in many scenarios, that, my good player, is balance; fair chance to all in the same environment.

Make no mistake; high rates revolve around damage and good gear. Skills such as Lex Divina, Dazzler and Hammerfall which were keys to some jobs became useless in this scenario, so they must adapt.

Even on full strip, a high leveled Sinx, Wizzard, High Priest, etc, was still functional on a low rate standard, in a high rate that revolves so much around gear such as ours, Full Strip would be equivalent to a skill that makes a 99/70 into a 10/1, being such a powerful debuff that strip is, and accessible to all for use through rare cards and items turn common, it needs a counter up to par, which the easy access to FCP makes up for just in the right measure.

Even if FCP lasted half of what it does, simply walking up to someone and hitting them for 30 seconds and have them drop(thus dispelling the buff), is much easier than waiting for 5 minutes so you can strip

As conclusion; FCP's duration is fine as it is(it wasn't altered in the server or anything, it is like this in its original programation). The reason why it should stay as is; many, if not all, classes currently need and rely on their gear in order to so much as simply DO something, that's how the server is. Strip in most cases is just a 'one shot win'. In my oppinion, who wants to just strip and rely on it too much is just someone who wants to score easy wins; strip should be a side strategy to use once in a while on a tight spot...not a main Modus Operandi.

Ahh thanks. Basically, you mean all the skills were originally designed and balanced with a stats system different from ours(low rate servers), therefore we need unique tweaks in our own mechanics and slightly different gameplay. Good point.

I also agree that "strip should be a side strategy to use once in a while in a tight spot". I too said, "Even in the situation that a class were not reliant on it, its still meant to be an available strategy."

However, you did not answer my question. I asked for the reason why FCP has the duration it does. Justify why we are using the duration of FCP we have. I understand that we need FCP; which is what you explained. Decreasing the duration does not mean we are disabling or removing FCP. I simply want to change the weight it contributes in balance against side strategies, not all strip; through tweaking FCP's duration a little.

Currently, its too long to allow strip a chance to be used as a side strategy. With its current duration, strip only depends on a person's access to FCP. Its easy to provide unlimited FCP when you have access to it beacuse of the long duration.

The current FCP duration is so long that it allows you to fight several battles completely immune to strip. There is a lot of opportunity to refresh FCP and become completely immune for another few battles within it's lasting duration. Where is the gap to use strip as a side strategy in EACH battle? We are only able to use strip, even as a side strategy when someone is not using FCP AT ALL or has no access to it.

If FCP's duration lasted shorter, they can still use FCP. Strip as a side strategy can be considered when FCP runs out EVENTUALLY in each battle.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Ravage

[L2Aim]

To counter the argument whether the FCP duration we currently have is justified or not, I would say yes & no.

Yes, it is the default setting and FCP works the way it's supposed to be, on a default Low Rate server.

In a High Rate server, the battles are much higher paced, it's not only about the most consumables or best fighting strategies, but also very gear reliant.

If you can't cross that bridge somehow, either through stripping or breaking (which allows certain status effects to be effective too), it's almost pointless to even bother.

The gap between old/rich players and poor/new players doesn't increase or decrease, just moves a bit to the left/right of the 'average'.

Pros of decreasing the FCP duration:

- The oversupply of Chemical Bottles will be reduced;

- Class Balance will occur, more Alchemist/Biochemists will have to play actively to support their team/guild;

- Alternative strategies will be made to beat the opponents (taking out the weakest/strongest links vs. taking out the buffing characters);

- The supply has to be refilled and new players are able to make a decent living out of this business, stabilizing the economy.

- High paced fights aren't necessarily prolonged through defensive/protection orientated play styles by classes that are originally offensive.

Cons of decreasing FCP duration:

- Demand > Supply, it can be seen as an unwanted side-effect (yet I think it is called setting priorities);

- More item breaking/stripping (with all the break protection on weapons & RSX cards it would lean more to stripping though);

- A possible increase of more Stalker/Strip orientated play style;

- Fights don't last long enough to be considered fun for certain players.

- ???

In my opinion, the pros outweigh the cons by far, as the cons can be countered in a way by the pros.

[Rune]

The problem is I don't think its good for balance at all.

I'd fully agree with lowering the time of FCP wasn't for the fact strip is easily accessible by just about anyone, every and each class is able to inflict each effect of strip(Drill Katar, Metaling, Wickebine, Warlord, Baby Leopard/Leaf Cat/Amistr/Wild Rose hats).

When you were not on FCP, you'd look out for stalkers and as long as you avoided them successfully, you'd be alright, as it stands without FCP you know you'll be having your defenses(up to 70% reductions), HP and even your ability to use skills flying off the window soon even if no stalkers are present. Another reason why stalkers needed so many buffs in order to become a solid class; their specialty was taken away.

So, since only one class is able to counteract it, as every class is able to inflict it, it isn't fair to mess with its duration. Because you have everyone (every class can strip) against one(only creators can protect against it)...how's that fair&balanced? Depending so much on a single class(on even shorter intervals than we already have to) for defending against something extremely dangerous that anyone can do anytime.

Should someday the chemical protection scrolls come back, I'll surely agree with your suggestion then, it isn't a bad suggestion, but I believe the scenario doesn't favor it in a balancing analysis, since we have who strips VS who protects against it with a result of 1 VS over 14. And it is the original timespan of the skill after all.

[Ryuk]

So, since only one class is able to counteract it, as every class is able to inflict it, it isn't fair to mess with its duration. Because you have everyone (every class can strip) against one(only creators can protect against it)...how's that fair&balanced? Depending so much on a single class(on even shorter intervals than we already have to) for defending against something extremely dangerous that anyone can do anytime.

When I read this topic I can certainly understand both sides. However I'll have to agree with the above statement. Also some of you state that decreasing the fcp duration will increase the use of creators, while at the same time I think this will decrease the use of creators even more. Why ? Because FCP is pretty much the only thing creators are still used/accepted for, nerfing this ability like this would cause them to need more fcp bottles and this would make creator even more expensive (or time taking) to play. Them being too expensive (or time taking ) is already the main reason why we don't see a lot of active creators, why reduce the amount of creators even more ?

[Ravage]

The problem is I don't think its good for balance at all.

I'd fully agree with lowering the time of FCP wasn't for the fact strip is easily accessible by just about anyone, every and each class is able to inflict each effect of strip(Drill Katar, Metaling, Wickebine, Warlord, Baby Leopard/Leaf Cat/Amistr/Wild Rose hats).

When you were not on FCP, you'd look out for stalkers and as long as you avoided them successfully, you'd be alright, as it stands without FCP you know you'll be having your defenses(up to 70% reductions), HP and even your ability to use skills flying off the window soon even if no stalkers are present. Another reason why stalkers needed so many buffs in order to become a solid class; their specialty was taken away.

So, since only one class is able to counteract it, as every class is able to inflict it, it isn't fair to mess with its duration. Because you have everyone (every class can strip) against one(only creators can protect against it)...how's that fair&balanced? Depending so much on a single class(on even shorter intervals than we already have to) for defending against something extremely dangerous that anyone can do anytime.

Should someday the chemical protection scrolls come back, I'll surely agree with your suggestion then, it isn't a bad suggestion, but I believe the scenario doesn't favor it in a balancing analysis, since we have who strips VS who protects against it with a result of 1 VS over 14. And it is the original timespan of the skill after all.

I'm finally adding a warning to my long posts, LOL. You can read only the highlights to get the point. If you dont agree or need explanation, read the unhighlighted also.

I think I know which part your at now! Its true that every class has access to strip! But remember that there are also varying levels of strip accessible to these classes. Also remember that the same level strip will have varying success chances among different builds against different builds.

Now for "Who protects against strip" ... what? You make it sound like the only way you know how to counter strip is FCP from chemists. You dont need FCP to counter all these various strips to achieve balance. Thats why you still think strip is overpowered. Your forgetting about how stats and skills(besides FCP) counter against strip.

Strip is balanced amongst every class against every class including those with no access to FCP. How would it be balanced even if there was less access to FCP? Eventhough fRO is technically different, strip's formulas are still the same i believe? The equations built into strip govern it's balance against varying job classes without FCP, even on our server.

Strip(not full strip)

Success Rate(%) = 0.2*(yourDex - targetDex) + 5*SkillLV + 5

The equations are clever and intelligent to be based on dex because every class has a suitable amount of dex for their needs to vary how strip should work for/against them. A world without abusing access to FCP would be like.......

(melee build job class)Strip vs swordsman class(popular melee) : attack is equal to a swordsman's and defense is equal so damage is equal. Damage is equal due to similar builds. DEX is equal in the similar builds giving an average strip success rate.

(dex build job class)strip vs swordsman class : attack less and defense less so damage is less. DEX is always higher in these situations. By using dex in the forumla for balance, they can be certain to give a higher strip chance.

(melee)strip vs archer class(popular dex): attack more, defense more. Damage is more but dex is lower, strip success lower.

(dex)strip vs archer class: attack equal, defense equal. Damage is equal so DEX is equal, strip success average.

(melee)strip vs merchant class (FCP): attack is equal, defense is equal. Damage is equal and they have a skill to cancel all strip.

(dex)strip vs merchant class : attack is more, defense is less. Damage is balanced and they have higher dex, merchant class has a skill to cancel strip.

Strip does not ignore builds, thats what keeps it balanced no matter who has access to it. Thats how it is kept from being overpowered and uncounterable especially the lower level strips which is accessible to everyone.

I still dont use FCP even with all the dex stalkers. However, I DO agree that we should not remove the easy access to FCP on our high rate server.

With that aside, your mixing up FCP duration and accessibility to FCP. How does duration of FCP affect accessibility to FCP? It doesnt because they're completely different things. Duration will affect demand on FCP bottles, thats what conclusion you should have arrived to. Not less accessibility to FCP.

Did you imagine that people would not be using FCP because they want to save their bottles since the duration is so short? Making FCP more available through scrolls is genius tho.

You can keep the duration of FCP long enough to counter strip as a main strategy, but short enough to allow strip to be used as a side strategy late in battle. Add to that the balance that dex adds to strips mechanics among jobs..

Making FCP less abusable against strip by decreasing its duration and making it more available through scrolls to supply the demand. Heck, charge us vote tickets or make them farmable from the new monsters.

P.S. This is why more feedback is appreciated, even better solutions. *edit* maybe not

When I read this topic I can certainly understand both sides. However I'll have to agree with the above statement. Also some of you state that decreasing the fcp duration will increase the use of creators, while at the same time I think this will decrease the use of creators even more. Why ? Because FCP is pretty much the only thing creators are still used/accepted for, nerfing this ability like this would cause them to need more fcp bottles and this would make creator even more expensive (or time taking) to play. Them being too expensive (or time taking ) is already the main reason why we don't see a lot of active creators, why reduce the amount of creators even more ?

You also only know 1 way to counter strip? Read the response above. If you put together both your arguments, took in my explainations, you'd arrive to my conclusion.

If you really did read the whole topic, including my whole original suggestion, i discussed making FCP bottles a monster drop to supply the demand? Instead of farming ingredients which is difficult.. or buying from botters which is expensive. We are already beyond that now tho.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Ravage

[L2Aim]

Chemical Protection scrolls was a bad idea when it was used and shouldn't be re-used to counter the strip.

One of the reasons, besides the low, yet very frequent damage, why creators aren't played commonly is because their supportive game-play is not supported by the offensive play style that's created in the last couple of years.

If the FCP time would be reduced, the demand for bottles and creators would increase significantly.

Currently the creator demand is basically 0, people can dual client without any problem and the duration is sufficient to outplay the competition.

The bottle demand still is much lower than the supply, which also decreases the need for more creators to protect their team.

It seems that one key-role of the whole MMORPG essence is forgotten; Team play.

Everyone seem to focus all their ideas, suggestions and rejections on solo game play, using HR as an excuse doesn't change the original thought behind it.

Of course it is awesome if you can win ladders (barely done alone), beat everyone in LMS and overall be the best player with the most kills and fame.

But people need to remember, why they need others, class & team balance are weighted against each other, but they should be linear.

WoE is the main event of whole RO, a team based event, try to relate this whole FCP idea to that.

It weakens the defence with the absence or lack of creators, or it can be that addition that makes it hard to conquer an area.

Bring back team play, lower the FCP duration.

For yourself, for your guild and friends.

For Pony..

[jorgesilvera]

Chemical Protection scrolls was a bad idea when it was used and shouldn't be re-used to counter the strip.

One of the reasons, besides the low, yet very frequent damage, why creators aren't played commonly is because their supportive game-play is not supported by the offensive play style that's created in the last couple of years.

If the FCP time would be reduced, the demand for bottles and creators would increase significantly.

Currently the creator demand is basically 0, people can dual client without any problem and the duration is sufficient to outplay the competition.

The bottle demand still is much lower than the supply, which also decreases the need for more creators to protect their team.

It seems that one key-role of the whole MMORPG essence is forgotten; Team play.

Everyone seem to focus all their ideas, suggestions and rejections on solo game play, using HR as an excuse doesn't change the original thought behind it.

Of course it is awesome if you can win ladders (barely done alone), beat everyone in LMS and overall be the best player with the most kills and fame.

But people need to remember, why they need others, class & team balance are weighted against each other, but they should be linear.

WoE is the main event of whole RO, a team based event, try to relate this whole FCP idea to that.

It weakens the defence with the absence or lack of creators, or it can be that addition that makes it hard to conquer an area.

Bring back team play, lower the FCP duration.

For yourself, for your guild and friends.

For Pony..

Forsaken Ragnarok Online is a PVP based server, no other kind of server,Creator is not fully armed as the other classes to PvP.

Woe is actualy 1 haour with if is decred the FCP time how ¿How many time take to brake an emperium? Betwhen runing,tramps, ect, ect.

¿many times would be nesesary to FCP? Even while fighting will be needed and the times you got dead too.

Will be forcly more needed from now what is now.

If this is acepted the people will be FORCED to be or send someone to be an Creator, contradicting to what the Forsaken Ragnarok Online actualy is.

In this topic there are just post from 13 persons and 320 views (18:45:15 server time).

This is a topic that affect the whole server and even the image of the server and can not be taken to Lightly.

PS. NO!, STAY HOW IS.!

Edited November 8, 2010 by jorgesilvera

[Adum*]

Forsaken Ragnarok Online is a PVP based server, no other kind of server,Creator is not fully armed as the other classes to PvP.

Woe is actualy 1 haour with if is decred the FCP time how ¿How many time take to brake an emperium? Betwhen runing,tramps, ect, ect.

¿many times would be nesesary to FCP? Even while fighting will be needed and the times you got dead too.

Will be forcly more needed from now what is now.

If this is acepted the people will be FORCED to be or send someone to be an Creator, contradicting to what the Forsaken Ragnarok Online actualy is.

In this topic there are just post from 13 persons and 320 views (18:45:15 server time).

This is a topic that affect the whole server and even the image of the server and can not be taken to Lightly.

PS. NO!, STAY HOW IS.!

PVP meaning all classes CAN participate.By the way, my eyes were bleeding trying to understand your post.

As for your WOE argument. Creators are used as slaves today. Decreasing the FCP duration will make more use of creators.

I can't make anymore replies to your post cause my eyes are really bleeding atm. Im sorry if this sounds so mean.

[Ryuk]

You also only know 1 way to counter strip? Read the response above. If you put together both your arguments, took in my explanations, you'd arrive to my conclusion.

If you really did read the whole topic, including my whole original suggestion, i discussed making FCP bottles a monster drop to supply the demand? Instead of farming ingredients which is difficult.. or buying from botters which is expensive. We are already beyond that now tho.

There are more ways to counter strip. But your stat explanation is not one of them.

Strip does not ignore builds, thats what keeps it balanced no matter who has access to it. Thats how it is kept from being overpowered and uncounterable especially the lower level strips which is accessible to everyone.

It is true strip does not ignore builds. However on a server like this one ALL classes are very gear dependent, Just reducing the chance to be stripped with your build does not take away the fact that once you're stripped you're doomed. And with out current stalker gears it's not that hard for them to get way higher dex and still have huge reductions/ have enough time to strip you.

Rune pretty much explained it already

Make no mistake; high rates revolve around damage and good gear. Skills such as Lex Divina, Dazzler and Hammerfall which were keys to some jobs became useless in this scenario, so they must adapt.

Even on full strip, a high leveled Sinx, Wizzard, High Priest, etc, was still functional on a low rate standard, in a high rate that revolves so much around gear such as ours, Full Strip would be equivalent to a skill that makes a 99/70 into a 10/1, being such a powerful debuff that strip is, and accessible to all for use through rare cards and items turn common

The things you stated by comparing those classes(& strip) are highly lowrate oriented and several of the comparisons made do not match our server. Dex based characters do not have lower attack than the swordsman class, they are equal if not even higher.

Dex based characters don't have balanced attack with the merchant class, dex based characters have way higher damage/attack than the merchant class while it should be the other way around.

Bottom line (for me, just my opinion) : Yes, altering your build by increasing your dex can reduce the chance of getting stripped. But you can in no way really call it a 'counter' to strip.

Making fcp bottles drop-able would completely ruin their current economy. And personally I see no reason at all for this change. Stalkers at this moment have gotten the gears to utilize at other things than just strip. And they don't need a boost in any single way. So no, I definitely do not arrive at your conclusion o.O;

Edited November 9, 2010 by Ryuk

[Ravage]

This is getting repetitive. Your conclusions are changing as you understand my arguments and are on the exact similar path as earlier responses from other people. In psychology we call this stereotypes. As people understand the same thing, they will all reach the same conclusion if their comprehension is suffice or similar. What I means is that your misunderstand what I'm saying. Your focusing too hard in arguing against my idea that your not understanding what your reading. Instead, your looking for something wrong in what i say. My explanation in how strip is also countered by dex is not low rate oriented or incorrect.

Your also misunderstand how to balance. Balancing isnt always comparing, its also differentiating. You cant compare oranges and apples so you balance them through their differences.

When considering balance on our server, we cant use "comparing" because we dont all weight the same against varying classes. Comparing is why the server implemented rediculous buffs in the weapons that have been getting nerfed in the end. What your doing is looking at how much damage each do on the same opponent and comparing their damage. My explanation of how stats work with strip among job classes is not a comparison. In a battle, your not looking at how much damage is done on the same thing compared to someone else. You look at how much damage one does on the other.

Rune pretty much explained it already

The things you stated by comparing those classes(& strip) are highly lowrate oriented and several of the comparisons made do not match our server. Dex based characters do not have lower attack than the swordsman class, they are equal if not even higher.

Dex based characters don't have balanced attack with the merchant class, dex based characters have way higher damage/attack than the merchant class while it should be the other way around.

Does a sniper/dex stalker do more damage on an LK than the LK does damage on a sniper/stalker? Not at all.

14k total damage from DS is not higher than 25k total that spiral pierce does when they battle against eachother. However, a sniper can do 70k total DS on a poring, and the LK does 60k total with spiral pierce.

Have you seen AD(biochem) and HSCR (whitesmiet). Dex damage is NOT higher than either.

Now remembering that other classes use a lower level strip compared to stalkers, do the math with the equations of strip and the normal dex that each class would have ON OUR SERVER. My stats explanation should make sense now.

It is true strip does not ignore builds. However on a server like this one ALL classes are very gear dependent, Just reducing the chance to be stripped with your build does not take away the fact that once you're stripped you're doomed. And with out current stalker gears it's not that hard for them to get way higher dex and still have huge reductions/ have enough time to strip you.

Your focused on stalkers and I believe what you mean is that my stats explanation will not counter Stalkers. Thats exactly my reason why we should not remove FCP. However, remember that other classes can use strip!

Bottom line (for me, just my opinion) : Yes, altering your build by increasing your dex can reduce the chance of getting stripped. But you can in no way really call it a 'counter' to strip.

Making fcp bottles drop-able would completely ruin their current economy. And personally I see no reason at all for this change. Stalkers at this moment have gotten the gears to utilize at other things than just strip. And they don't need a boost in any single way. So no, I definitely do not arrive at your conclusion o.O;

Again, same path of changing conclusions.. FCP's duration does not only affect stalkers main strip strategy, but it also affect's other classes strip.

You can keep the duration of FCP long enough to counter strip as a main strategy(stalkers), but short enough to allow strip to be used as a side strategy late in battle.

Strip as a side strategy would be for classes stuck in a tight spot, meaning they will have a lengthy battle, which means they need an opportunity for different strategies eventually.

As for bottles demands... The topic is balance, not saving the economy. I didnt know the economy needed saving.

However, I'd like to argue that the people with FCP bottles can still use their bottles. And also, implementing bottles as a drop can always be delayed for until demand is higher than supply.

[Ryuk]

your misunderstand what I'm saying. Your focusing too hard in arguing against my idea that your not understanding what your reading. Instead, your looking for something wrong in what i say. My explanation in how strip is also countered by dex is not low rate oriented or incorrect.

Just because someone disagrees with your arguements doesn't mean that they don't understand what they are reading. You are not god, you are not always right. People and opinions differ completely, what you're stating is not a fact it's an opinion. All my points made are based on knowledge and experience when it comes to this game.

My explanation in how strip is also countered by dex is not low rate oriented or incorrect.

That, again. would be your opinion , in my opinion it's highly low rate oriented. This does NOT mean I don't understand what you're saying, this means I disagree with your opinion. This also doesn't mean I'm basing my opinion on the purpose to go against you, I'm basing it on the experience with the RO mechanics.

14k total damage from DS is not higher than 25k total that spiral pierce does when they battle against eachother. However, a sniper can do 70k total DS on a poring, and the LK does 60k total with spiral pierce.

Snipers can easily reach double the stated amount of damage with double strafe on decent reductions (55%+) Lets not even mention focussed arrow strike. Now the LK weapon damaged is nerfed the damage between snipers and lord knights are pretty much even, if not snipers do more damage.

Have you seen AD(biochem) and HSCR (whitesmiet). Dex damage is NOT higher than either.

Again... Snipers easily outdamage both these classes. Both with PvP and PvE. (PvE in most cases)

As for bottles demands... The topic is balance, not saving the economy. I didnt know the economy needed saving.

Nowhere I said the economy needed saving, I just stated we should not screw up the current economy (and one of the only few ways for newer people to make money) because of an (in my opinion) unnecessary change. Edited November 16, 2010 by Ryuk

[Ravage]

Just because someone disagrees with your arguements doesn't mean that they don't understand what they are reading. You are not god, you are not always right. People and opinions differ completely, what you're stating is not a fact it's an opinion. All my points made are based on knowledge and experience when it comes to this game.

That, again. would be your opinion , in my opinion it's highly low rate oriented. This does NOT mean I don't understand what you're saying, this means I disagree with your opinion. This also doesn't mean I'm basing my opinion on the purpose to go against you, I'm basing it on the experience with the RO mechanics.

I did not say you misunderstand because you dont agree. I said you misunderstand instead of differentiating you were comparing. You said it and keep showing in your examples. When you read my explanation, using comparing methods instead of differentiating, it will not make sense which means you misunderstand.

Your not paying attention to what specific words mean, not even in what your saying... You even use the word "opinion" incorrectly.

I made my battle scenario high rate oriented; is a fact not an opinion. You cant change the fact that I did it like that, you can only change how you perceive it. When you say you see my analysis as low rate oriented, that is an opinion.

Dex affects strip, Incorrect or Correct? Thats just one, I never said I was always right.

Snipers can easily reach double the stated amount of damage with double strafe on decent reductions (55%+) Lets not even mention focussed arrow strike. Now the LK weapon damaged is nerfed the damage between snipers and lord knights are pretty much even, if not snipers do more damage.

Yes, the number is actually almost exactly double on 55% reductions. But is 55% reductions the most one can wear or what everyone has? Your forgetting the possibility that those numbers are maybe from in game on a real LK, which usually has more reducts than 55%?

This is what i mean about you comparing everything instead of differentiating. When your comparing, you assume that everyone is the same. You give a flat variable (55% reductions) to base your analysis. Instead of making many analysis for each class by differentiating how they are against eachother.

How much does a sniper do VS 55% reductions and how much does a LK do VS 55% reducts is comparing.

How much does a geared sniper do on a geared LK? How much does the LK do on the sniper? Thats differentiating.

As a GM can't you do tests to produce facts instead of basing your opinion on speculation from experience?

We all have experience, that never means we have had the same experiences or learn from them the same way.Thats a fact, not an opinion.

[Ryuk]

We can go on forever about the comparing/ differentiating thing as it has no use. You're contradicting yourself in this very single topic and I see no use in arguing over this.

Bottom line for me :

Both differentiating and comparing are needed to obtain better balance between classes. Gravity did not create all classes without comparing them. Gravity did not create all classes without differentiating them. However because this is a high-rate server everything is out of proportion. Meaning classes have to be compared to regain balance.For example : The enchant deadly poison skill increases damage ridiculously more on here than on a normal/low/midrate server, because of the attack rate here is way higher than on low/mid rates and the damage add from EDP is in percentages. While at the same time Whitesmiths CT damage is based on cart weight, which isn't changed because of server rates and higher stats. So just because this is a high rate server with higher stats, the assassin cross class would have an advantage over the Whitesmith class because their skill depends on atk and adds % instead of it being based on something else that isn't out of proportion because of the rates(cart-unaltered.) This is where classes have to be compared so balance can be restored. Each class was supposed to have it's own task/role when they were designed. This was done through differentiation. However the skills created for classes were differentiated/created based on the 99/70 level cap and the 99 base stat cap( All % skills/adds were based on that ). Hence why skills get out of proportion once the max stats suddenly change. It's our task to try and keep the balance the way it was supposed to be by comparing the classes on one side and differentiating the classes on the other side so they can still be played the way they should be played but can still be on par.

As a GM can't you do tests to produce facts instead of basing your opinion on speculation from experience?

Tests could be done on a test server only. And I have no access to one. As stated before, I'm merely stating my opinion in this topic , just like everyone else. Me being a GM has nothing to do with this suggestion.

My opinion on the fcp duration still stands. This will be my last post in this topic. If you feel the need to continue this 'discussion' feel free to PM me :happy:

[.Kyuubi.]

I agree with Ryuk, the WS is the only class to never have recieved an increase in anything a day in its life on this server, I play a ws class, I do pretty damn well, but when it comes to fighting the other classes we have such a clear disadvantage it almost makes the game not fun. the fact that anyone can just agi down a ws and take away its best attack is just pathetic. Our only way of dealing damage so why is our defense so low?? our HP is just saddening and the new WS oriental just makes it worse, sure the +30%hp increase is nice but thats the only part of the weapon that works, you spend so much time worrying about the classes that people can play because they're so simple but when's the last time u saw 2 or more whitesmiths in the same area pvping? just me.

I say nerf the stalker and sniper classes, buff the ws class and increase the carts weight to about 14-16k and fix the whitesmith oriental sword.

Edited January 12, 2011 by .Kyuubi.

[zac]

hmm, all these things are tricky. Due to this being highrate, stalkers strip rate is practically 100% lol so i dunno... i guess reducing fcp duration would be a good thing.. i cant really disagree there.

About your comment on snipers having traps. (a bit off topic)

Snipers have a TRAP they dont have TRAPS lol .. their most effective trap in pvp is proberly skid trp. ankle snare even is useless. One mag break and the ankle is gone, OR backslide, OR snap.

the other sniper traps are useless...

Even schockwave is useless... due too Yggs.

[Seraphine]

If fcp were to be reduced to 3-5minutes duration don't you think stalkers will be even more prevalant as it stands right now stalkers can last the full time in Lms and are already quite powerful if this were to happen everyone who won Lms would be a stalker unless they are very rich and can afford to gear 2 characters in my opinion would be over powering every other class, in my opinion it depends how would you want to reduce stalker offense?

Anways that's what i think everything seems be fine but i don't think tweaks are necessary to fcp.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Seraphine

[Veggie&Mac]

Keep the fcp just like this, stlaker they are in a power line now with SB, if you reduce the fcp time, then nerf Gospel skill, and Acid Bomb cant be copyed.

Stalkers can run away, strip, break same as the whole jobs, and FCP is the only way to survive vs stalker, same as pneuma for Champs, and safety wall vs champs.

The good staklers dont event need Full strip to win, actually 5 Ds's and Boom you are dead.

PD: there is a combo card giving you the chance to get 1 fcp bottle killing a especific monster type only with creator job.

Dani♥i hate full strip

Edited February 1, 2011 by Veggie&Mac

[Veracity]

Things have changed a lot since this was originally posted, and I realize the discussion went on again til January 2011... but most of what is being suggested here are things that we can't do right now because it would require source edits. I'm not sure it would even be a good idea now anyway, even if it could be done it would likely be rejected anyway since what's being discussed here isn't really viable or sensible at this moment. Thank you for your thoughtful suggestion, though.

- Rejected -