Gunslinger Re Balancing Suggestions

[nilo16]

Good day,

With all the balancing hanging in the balance lets try and be civil here so rage less and reason more.

Please provide inputs after tests,if you haven't played and tested then it would just be really not justify the real deal.

Currently before Gs spam reduction GS were competitive and balanced with RS harass and filler at range and

Desperado at melee

Even though they were non trans which was amazing

one of the main ways was we were able to stagger ppl with the spam rate

thus giving us opportunity to dish good damage to ppl at close range and have opturnity to kill

Now days that stagger effect is not there thus making it very easy to get out of the desperado , worse still

It gives a good window where we take tons of more damage .

Where we could fight on equal terms is now not possible cause our surviablity was always low at melee range but was counter balanced by our spam damage rate with staggers is now gone.

We have to escape once comited to melee range ( other than cloak which usually means a switch to xcross card making our damage redux even lower) we just don't seem to last long enough on equal gear and skill fights.

the 5%damage and 80% spam have been a good change but we are still not at our pre nerf competitive level.

Spam cannot be increased as that's a real issue in woe so that's out..

Which brings us to having to either further inc damage .

Or increase surviablity especially during desperado casts.

i know I mainly speak of 2main skill Rs and Desp as they are the primary means if damage,

This does not mean we don't have various other buttons for gear changes, bullets, shirt timedbuffs,weapons switches etc its all there just like others.

I was rooting more for a slight def buff for the desprado spam times..something thats evens out melee trades as most other melee classes have a way higher HP pool and sustain or escape cause the truth be said our best hope of killing others lies in melee range.

I was thinking say about a 20% damage redux for melee damage like how bout a 20% chance to auto guard. That will still keep us vulnerable to magic and rightly so but give us melee surviablity.only active during desperado spam or put it like last 2 sec when u land less than 5hits of desp or more if that's a possibility.

[Shadi]

Summarizing what has been said already:

1: Comparing gunslingers to other classes, their survivability is more than fine.

2: Gunslinger is not a melee class. the fact that you ignore anti range items/skills by having a short range skill as well is an advantage not an disvantage. You can not consider gunslingers as a melee class as they have 0 melee skills. They have a short range skill, yes but that doesn't mean gunslingers are a melee class. That's like saying bow stalkers are a melee class because backstab and full strip are at melee range....

3:

I was thinking say about a 20% damage redux for melee damage like how bout a 20% chance to auto guard

I can only highly assume this is a joke. 20% damage reduction can make gunslingers huge tanks. And why on earth would we add a 20% chance to guard on a class that does massive damage. Paladins have these defensive skills cause they are a defensive class and in general their damage is very low. Gunslingers are the opposite. They are supposed to be glass cannons. High damage, low survivability. On this server by granting them shields and a big HP boost they have high damage and decent to high survivability. They do not need any buffs.

Gungslingers have

1: One of the highest damage outputs on the server

2: Decent survivability

3: Decent mix of long range and short range attacks

4: No item-wise hard-counter.

5: No need to wear items that make them vurnerable

Bottom line: Gunslingers are still a top tier class, and there's many other jobs that need a boost/balancing a lot more than gunslinger does.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Shadi

[nilo16]

Agree there may be classes that need more tuning.

I would encourage all to make topics if ur issues but pls don't

Make it that cause I job needs work others don't

But im not a expert on other classes I main a Gs I am testing Gs and

Bringing up issues that I find.

My view that if we were not op before the nerf I would want

To be back to that lvl of competitiveness and that is not currently balanced

If the guard suggestion was too much .. I can't say that it is

Maybe10% I don't know what's ideL as I can't test it.

We need something to change the damage is not as good as before

And surviablity is lower. Worst is to try and keep ppl within desperado.

Really saying we are not melle is it true when our primary main skill is melee range

Saying desp is short range is just harsh cause at its max possible range no matter how much hit u have

U will maybe if lucky land 3 hits at most u need to be real up close melee to kill.

Agreed oaladins have lower damage and they have good def we do not need that much hence I said 20%

So knights with50% parry and huge hp and huge damage ..is ok. What im trying to prove this is not

To compare classes this us to fix Gs back to how they were.

Which is our combined goal.

I would like some suggestions on that how to get back to how we were pre nerf to reduce lag.

Cause we werenit op before and we deserve to be back to that same competitive status.

Weather it be damage inc, general buffs skills, def buffs all ideas are welcome and subject to testing

Guys also when u reply and post here I would like a show of hands simple yes or no

Do you feel gunslingers are back to the competitive lvl they were before nerd?

Yes/no ( u may add a reason / suggestion if u think of one)

Mine is no ppl who I was able to fight on even terms with before now hold a huge edge over me.

ALSO PLS LETS LEAVE CLASS COMPARISONS OUT AND FOCUS ON GS HERE AND TO REBALANCE THEM TO

EARLIER LVLS OF GS . SO COMPARE PRE NERF GS TO POST NERF GS ONLY

[Shadi]

If the guard suggestion was too much .. I can't say that it is

Maybe10% I don't know what's ideL as I can't test it.[/size]

We need something to change the damage is not as good as before[/size]

And surviablity is lower. Worst is to try and keep ppl within desperado.[/size]

20% guard is only 10% less than max level guard on paladins. It'd be way too OP to add that to a powerhouse class like gunslinger. Adding guard to any class with good offensive abilities would be out of the question imo. [/size]

Really saying we are not melle is it true when our primary main skill is melee range

Saying desp is short range is just harsh cause at its max possible range no matter how much hit u have[/size]

U will maybe if lucky land 3 hits at most u need to be real up close melee to kill.[/size]

If your skill was really melee it would've been reflected by OL. It has a range, a range that's bigger than autoattack range for melee classes. Yet it's not effected by anti range items/skills. This is a huge advantage that GS have. You don't have to be up real close to get a kill, that's the exact problem with the playstyle you're trying to have. You need to keep the melee classes off you as much as possible. This is easily doable with the right gears ( use magnum break !?!?! Horong ? Speed potions? ). You have a very solid range attack AND a ranged strip. You are definitely not a melee class, stop saying that.[/size]

ALSO PLS LETS LEAVE CLASS COMPARISONS OUT AND FOCUS ON GS HERE AND TO REBALANCE THEM TO[/size]

EARLIER LVLS OF GS . SO COMPARE PRE NERF GS TO POST NERF GS ONLY [/size]

Let's not. You are suggesting a change to a class. Every class is in direct connection with other classes. All connections together form the entire class balance. Classes are balanced based on comparisons between the classes. So counting out all other classes makes it hard to get 'class balance'. Aside from that you're suggesting skills from other classes to be enabled for your class. Don't you think the original classes that normally own the skill are effected by this? For example take the creator class. This class used to have a big advantage being able to carry a lot more supplies than other classes. After other classes got the enlarge weight limit as well creators suddenly carry a lot less supplies (yggs) compared to the other classes because they have to carry bottles as well with the same maximum weight as other classes that don't have to carry bottles. So the adding of one skill from one job onto another indirectly nerfed the original class that had the skill.[/size] Edited October 23, 2013 by Shadi

[nilo16]

Okie let me rephrase what I wanna compare is pre nerd Gs to post nerd Gs.

although I don't see how taking auto guard low lvl would nerf paladin

You do pose a valid point that any change will indirectly some where affect other classes

I see auto guard is considered OP so lets think of something else .

how about some way to keep ppl a bit in range.. How about a slightly higer hit chance so we can still cause

some stagger other than losing it completely by RNG misses and spam delay

So agreeing with u on that and would like to mention what I mean is ,

Don't compare saying wizards are weak , so Gs don't need buffs or LK is stronger

So Gs need buffs.

But if a change like the enlarge weight affects all classes definitely worth discussion. :)

So but now to the main question

PRE NERF GS AND POST NERF ARE THEY ON EQUAL FOOTING ?

[Sensation]

Before the nerf the Gunslingers were too strong and had too much control with their Desperado. The comparison you're making will always be in the benefit of the Gunslingers from before the nerf.

You shouldn't compare Gunslingers to other transcendent classes to start with since it isn't one.

The survivability is the same as before the nerf, however, players are able to reach you 'easier' with melee range skills now. This actually is to balance their fighting power against yours.

Complete domination by one class never has been a good thing and to my opinion, Gunslingers are ok where they are for now.

The lag has nothing to do with the changes to the class, so I don't understand why you bring that up. Adding a skill such as guard to a Gunslinger class is quite a horrible idea as that skill is meant for a low mobility class. Gunslingers aren't low mobility, but high mobility, so there goes the reasoning behind the thought.

With some adjustments in the playstyle, you can still do what you did before. However, I am not here to lecture people on their playstyle, but trying to get the best out of every suggestion before it will be accepted/rejected.

[Rayray]

It was funny that the last suggestion topic got closed before I get to reply(working sucks sometimes). Oh well. Well since you guys want facts. Then here we go.

My gunslinger gear that I used to test: using fset

Fhelm: 2 kiels

Skull Aura- Kiel

Eidelic Wing/ Scarf= fsoldier/maya purple. Eidelic wing gives around 20k more hp, so it wasn't a that huge.

armors: tao gr, tao puppetring, tao garm, tao rsx, rsx gr, tao tao, tao angeling

Weapons: 2 Legendary guns, one with incant, 2x tg and valk randgris. The other with thana, 2x tg and valk randgris

Shield- friggs: usakoring, GTB, Maya

Cloak: 2x skoll, 2x raydric, 2x noxious

boots: 2x fbh

acc : 2x dex belts

Not gonna post the exact stats but STR is high enough to carry 200+ seeds + speed potions + few resists. around 220k hp on one tao since I put more focus on dex and str. can lower dex to put more hp if needed.

Did not use uber drops card to fix the delay on 80%

Desperado Damage per hit ranging from 11k-16k depending on enemy on incant, 22k-26k on thana. Damage jumps when someone get stoned and use fire bullets of course.

Does not have Ring, Valis, Freyrs and Ship captain hat. So damage is actually lower than fully geared gunslingers.

Spam is not as slow as 70% before, easier to kill people off since spam was actually decent. Spam would be faster if I used uber drops, but then survivabilty gets lowered since it sacrifices the fsoldier card.

Survivability is decent, gunslinger has more hp than my clown on similar gear setup and stats. Classes that can one shot my gunslinger are full asura champs(if im not on raydrics), fully buffed sb sinx and MBed prof. Any class beside high hp ones are one shotted by those classes, so survivability is definitely not an issue.

Typical asura will hit 90k-120k on raydrics if they are not full. hp is around 200k on dual raydrics. More than enough to tank asura since you will be spamming seeds along with desperado anyway.

Rapid shower feels slow with 80% spam compared to before. But it isn't unusable and is supposed to be a secondary skill anyway.

Haven't encountered a single sinx that went dual weapons(crit mostly) that didn't die the moment they went dual.

We are discussing class balance, so player skill is not to be considered, but gear should be. Any nerf/buff we do indirectly affects lesser geared people. Buffing the gunslinger class blindly will not help them much, but will only help people that has complete gear.

Used one bullet all through out the testing phase. Didn't find the need to use converter nor change bullet. Bullet element is fire.

Trying to borrow valis and ring from someone and test again after that. Not going to be able to gain enough activity to get ship captain hat though.

If you are still skeptical on the values I listed there, please leave your IGN.

@Sensation they nerfed the spam of GS(according to Veracity) due to lag, but not graphics lag. In woe, if there are too many GS prior to the nerf and they are spamming desperado, anybody that sees them get client lag.

[Shadi]

The massive amount of gunslingers on one map, spamming desperado caused lag due to the huge amount of damage calculations. The client simply wasn't able to handle it. This is (part of) the reason it was nerfed.

I agree with basically everything Sensation mentioned in his post.

[nilo16]

Kool tks this is a much better discussion :)

so the idea us a slight change in play style I'll have to try,

The nerd was lag plus the fact that Gs were op before

Then I stand corrected ,.

I misunderstood veracity post then cause I thought he said that the

Nerf was just cause of of damage calculation lag and they were looking for

Suggestions to get Gs back to that lvl without increasing spam.

So I was thinking of these things but if the case is that Gs is now balanced

And was op before then we just leave it :)

adapt evolve or die :D

[Rayray]

The better suggestion was to create already the other weapons for gunslingers. Although if that would be implemented, we would have to change the whole 80% cast delay thing again on gunslingers. By that time, we would have to make desperado the only skill that has the 80% after cast delay(probably). But for now, the delays in place were decent enough to make the class playable.

[nilo16]

Ya I did see that post on other weapons looked nice , but I doubt they would be viable with current set up other than for situational switch use.. Cause like rifle u would only have access to tracking which would be viable at range with 100% cast redux.. Would just replace rapid fire with wepon switch ..not much of change..

Wonder if it was possible to make other skills available with revolver say if u had spread shot, place grenades, would add some interesting options to battle.

.

[Shadi]

Wonder if it was possible to make other skills available with revolver say if u had spread shot, place grenades, would add some interesting options to battle.

Yes very interesting. Let's make arrow vulcan and musical strike and all songs usable with bows as well and lets use spiral pierce with our 1 handed LK sword :D! Get my point ? XD; Once one job gets priviledges like that, others will want to follow.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Shadi

[Sensation]

If you want to make a new suggestion, please make a new topic. As far as I can read in this topic your initial suggestion doesn't stand and you even agreed to that. So this topic can be closed?

[nilo16]

Closed

Was just discussing random things :D