New Raw.. I Could't Replay On That One..

[monithin]

I understand about the reflect 23% is good. but i still think it should do a bit more cuz avain are still better as i understand here rare i still see many people have them just like the sgw there not that rare anymore everyone has them. So you don't have to raise the relfect maybe just add hp bounus or + some stats or sumthin! just try it if it doesn't work take it off or nurf it :)

[Deceptive]

I agree, maybe RAW could have like a slot? +10 stats, +10% walking speed, maybe a bit more reflect? It might push people to try to ladder more often since Avian Wings are so close to power in reflect as Royal Angel Wings.

+1

[Phenomenon]

I agree.

[sessions]

I'd say either a slot or increase to 30% reflect. It definitely needs improved, right now there is no real reason to ladder for raws other than looks.

[Veracity]

People have suggested it be raised back to 30% and that has been rejected, I doubt it is going to be any higher than what it is now. Adding alternative effects is a possibility, I suppose. I wouldn't rule it out yet anyway.

[plotus2]

Avian reflects only 15%. That's 8% less than RAW.

[Adamxd]

HP bonus +8% or slot or stat like+ 10.

[Phenomenon]

Lets make it at least add +5% HP, just like Avian Wings, seeing that Avian Wings have that AND a slot over RAW. (Minus the 8% reflect, which lacks in comparison IMO. Maybe even 10% HP is okay. As it doesn't have a slot anyways.)

Edited August 31, 2010 by Phenomenon

[Schwalkzvad Beowulve]

30% is good enough, since it is meant to be a reflect wing, not other. Avian is more of like a combination of different things. By doing this, people would have different playing styles.

[Deceptive]

Since they pretty much won't raise the reflect bonus, maybe a slot? Because that's the one big advantage Avians have over RAW. 8% reflect difference doesn't really add up to a slot imo.

[Shadi]

I agree with a HP boost (10%) / slot add.

[bankai`]

IMO 23% is already a lot if you add hp boots or add more stats to it, it will make this item superior to other items even if it's a ladder reward. I don't think it will be a good idea to make it so easy to get reflect because for one that's mainly a paladin job and 2nd you'll see nothing but pros equip with reflect 24/7.... Just like you see every stalker with high reducts so leave it at 23%. Wow slot and 30% reflect. I'm tired of people trying to boost up items that don't need boosting 23% is already OP. Also is there a limit for laddering?

Edited September 2, 2010 by bankai`

[sessions]

IMO 23% is already a lot if you add hp boots or add more stats to it, it will make this item superior to other items even if it's a ladder reward. I don't think it will be a good idea to make it so easy to get reflect because for one that's mainly a paladin job and 2nd you'll see nothing but pros equip with reflect 24/7.... Just like you see every stalker with high reducts so leave it at 23%. Wow slot and 30% reflect. I'm tired of people trying to boost up items that don't need boosting 23% is already OP. Also is there a limit for laddering?

Compare 23% reflect to 15% reflect with a slot, max hp +5%, and elemental reducts? (Yes there are bonuses by using the opposite element, but they are small) and tell me that Raw is overpowered.....I'm in favor of adding either a slot OR bumping it up to 30% reflect both could be too much. Also almost every class has a way around reflect, or aren't even affected by reflect in the first place so this wouldn't be overpowered anyway.

Also finally compare the fact that Avians were a donation for 20$ each and are now about 150-200 in price (except maybe ghost avians) while Raws take a whole week of laddering and are like 2.5k+, so they really should be much better than avians. 8% more reflect is not enough of a difference.

[xBiscuit]

A slot? hell nah.

Avian wings were donated for, that's why they had em.

I do agree with a hp boost or 30% reflect.

[Deceptive]

Compare 23% reflect to 15% reflect with a slot, max hp +5%, and elemental reducts? (Yes there are bonuses by using the opposite element, but they are small) and tell me that Raw is overpowered.....I'm in favor of adding either a slot OR bumping it up to 30% reflect both could be too much. Also almost every class has a way around reflect, or aren't even affected by reflect in the first place so this wouldn't be overpowered anyway.

Also finally compare the fact that Avians were a donation for 20$ each and are now about 150-200 in price (except maybe ghost avians) while Raws take a whole week of laddering and are like 2.5k+, so they really should be much better than avians. 8% more reflect is not enough of a difference.

My exact words, thanks Sessions. I'm glad people get what I'm saying. 8% reflect doesn't add up to elemental reducts and hp +5%.

[asdfasdf]

No.

[Ethereal]

No.

Thank you for that deeply insightful response to the topic. Your post clearly shows so much thought into it and it expresses all the details as to why you disagree with the topic.

In all seriousness, I definitely think something needs to be changed. RAW's need to be boosted; most of the time, the Avian wings outclass the RAWs.

[Adamxd]

Alright so let's make a final decision or voting. Discussing is now pointless and it will put off any decision and it will be updated in 2011. So:

1. Reflect 30%

2. Reflect 23% + 8% hp

3. Reflect 23% + 10 stats.

4. Reflect 30% + 8% hp + 3 stats?

5. Reflect 30% + slot?

If you have any other combination Please write it down and let's boost raw quickly.

[Deceptive]

I would like either the reflect +30%, reflect +23% with slot and +10% walking speed, or even just stick with reflect, +10 all stats, +10% walking speed. These are just imo, if they seem unreasonable to somebody let me know o=.

[monithin]

I would like either the reflect +30%, reflect +23% with slot and +10% walking speed, or even just stick with reflect, +10 all stats, +10% walking speed. These are just imo, if they seem unreasonable to somebody let me know o=.

i Kinda like the 30% REFLECT AND 8% HP WITH 3+ STATS! If i think of another i'll let you all know!

[Adamxd]

Bump for this topic.

[Phenomenon]

I absolutely disagree with adding a slot to it, or anything of the sort, spamming skills while defaulting a Forsaken Soldier on 23%+ minimal reflect seems like a lot to me. Adding '+ % hp' seems a bit too much to me as well, we're not trying to create super reflect paladins here, or make some sort of a super avian wing. It doesn't need a '+ stats' added to it either, I think it's effect being increase to 30% again seems like the best option. Being twice as effective as Avian, reflect wise, seems okay to me for what it is. 30% reflect is a lot and can be used very effectively by Lord Knights, Paladins, or any class for that matter against melee-type skill users.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Phenomenon

[Manifest]

I see Phenomenon's point. We don't need it to have a little bit of everything. That's what Avian Wings are for. Either it should be a pure effect wing, like, pure Reflect at a high %, or something short of a slot and stats. IMO it should be a prime choice if you want to reflect damage, and nothing else. And then, if you want to reflect, walking speed is sort of contradictory, you'd want to be hit, and not move away.

Any other effect suggestions other than getting reflect % up? It's a bit unlikely.

[HealHard]

Well, simply adding +reflect% wont be really buff. the problem of RAW is that it is only useful for few classes like Paladin and SinX. other classes dont really have a point of wasting stats and slot for reflect. Moreover, RAW s only used when you fight sinx and champs most of the time. So just improving reflect performance wont do. I suggest to Remake RAW with this bonuses : +23% melee reflect, 20%(maybe lower like 10~15%) chance spell reflect, +3% chance to autocast impositio manus on yourself when being attacked.

With stats listed above RAW will be usefull when fighting magical classes and even ranged classes due to chance to recieve damage buff.

[Veracity]

We will either add an HP bonus to RAWs, or adjust the reflect % (though I'm not sure how likely this would be since it was lowered originally for a reason).

- Accepted -